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Let me introduce myself. My name is Mark Sisson. I’m 63 years young. I live and work in Malibu, California. In a past life I was a professional marathoner and triathlete. Now my life goal is to help 100 million people get healthy. I started this blog in 2006 to empower people to take full responsibility for their own health and enjoyment of life by investigating, discussing, and critically rethinking everything we’ve assumed to be true about health and wellness...

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July 14 2010

Persistence Hunting in the Park

By Mark Sisson
320 Comments

UPDATE: Wow! Quite the response to this post! I had a good chuckle at many of the comments at first, but things have spiraled out of control a bit. First, let’s please keep things nice and civil in the comment boards. Heated arguments are one thing. Nasty ad hominem attacks are another, and they’ll be removed. Second, the reality is that if you never get within 40 yards of your target they’ll never be aware of your existence. I thought it went without saying, but don’t invade anyone’s personal space and don’t do anything else that common sense tells you not to do. I took out the line “Hide behind a tree for a second or two.” just so no one gets the wrong idea.

In most locales, summer is upon us. The sun acts as powerful beacon, a call to action for even the habitually sedentary to venture out and frolic in its rays. Hopeful mothers and fathers nudge chubby kids with creaky Xbox fingers, barely able to grasp the brand new football with which they’ve been tasked, out the door to partake in a mysterious, archaic activity known as “play.” Running shoes are finally removed from shoeboxes and attached to feet. Excuses to avoid going outside grow exceedingly pathetic and totally unconvincing, even to the skilled self-deceivers, who can no longer deny the basic awesomeness of a summer day. Squinting into this wonderful, terrible new light, they all gather in public areas – parks, hiking trails, outdoor malls, beaches – each in turn making personal pledges (or fulfilling imposed ones) that this will be the summer they finally take advantage of the great outdoors.

They are also weak and defenseless and, especially as they try to right the metabolic ship with outdoor Chronic Cardio through the park/sidewalk/trail/track, thrown into a state of confusion by all the sights, smells, and fresh air accosting them. Stale air-conditioning this is not. They are unprepared for what awaits them.

You, however, have been preparing for this moment for months, if not years. You’ve been eating meat, vegetables, roots, and fruit, molding your body and stoking your furnace with healthy fat, appropriate amounts of glucose, and measured bouts of intense lifting, sprinting, and steady movement. Even if you’re just beginning your Primal journey, even if you’re still adjusting – you’re still way ahead of the rest of ‘em.

It is a good time to be a persistence hunter.

Next time your stomach rumbles for a little physical exertion, venture out to the local park or track. Any spot where people will be jogging will work. You could even hit up a trail, as long as you’re sure there’ll be joggers. (I did this once in the back of a 10k race). Strap on your shoes (or don’t), wear something comfortable (or wear as little as possible), and survey the area. It’s now sacred hunting ground. You are the hunter; you can have your pick of the lot.

Regard your prey. Pick a jogger, any jogger, and let him or her gain some distance on you. A few dozen yards, perhaps. Now, walk after your target.

Keep your eye on the target, but let it gain ground on you. This isn’t a race, remember. It’s a battle of wits, of picking and choosing your spots.

When your target is a few hundred yards ahead, start to jog. Don’t let it range too far ahead, but don’t over exert yourself. Kiss the ground with a soft stride, making as little noise as possible. If you’re not barefoot, run like you are. You wouldn’t want to tire early and come home empty-handed; you can only subsist on foraged bitter nuts for so long.

Keep that pace for a couple minutes. Now speed up a bit. If you begin to gain ground, stop before you catch up completely.

Now sprint! Sprint for thirty seconds, and really push it – you might even be licking at their heels, but do not pass your prey. You’re not ready to finish just yet.

Stop. Let them continue on. Once they’ve turned a corner, passed behind a bend, or otherwise disappeared from sight, continue on. Jog, but jog in fractals. Start, stop, and run in spurts. For this portion, you aren’t breaking up the hunt into jog/sprint/walk sections; you’re melding them all together on the fly. Sprint for two seconds, stop for three, then jog for ten. Leap over branches, vault over bushes. You can even drop to all fours and crawl along the trail for a bit. Get creative.

(By now, it’s obvious that you’re a bit of a nut. You’re going to look a little strange. Are you okay with that? You should be used to it by now.)

Once you catch sight of your target, catch up by any and all means. Sprint if you have to. Just pass them up (no actual hunting, of course) and take a breather. You’ll probably need it. Flop down on the ground, stretch out, because you deserve it. Keep your wits about you, though, for there’s more prey afoot.

Even as you rest up, start the process of selecting your next target. After all, it’s open season and your tribe is hungry.

If there are multiple joggers zigzagging all over the place in all directions, you might try switching to a new target every time a new one passes in the other direction. Follow one for a couple minutes, then switch to another going the opposite way. Sprint after that one, then jog/crawl back in the other direction. How close can you get and for how many times without any of them knowing you’re there? The possibilities are endless.

Why the mind games?

The success of a workout. Whether you actually motivate yourself enough to begin and complete it, your performance throughout, and your intensity hinges largely on your state of mind. Persistence hunting in the park (yeah, I know, I thought about calling it “stalking” in the park, but somehow that sounded wrong) is a fantastic way to visualize and compel you to workout without “working out.” You’re in the moment, but that moment doesn’t occur on a treadmill while zoning out to the TV; you stay engaged in the act of movement itself. You’re aware of your muscles contracting and extending. You feel each footfall, every tiny pebble, every expansion of your lungs. You can’t ignore your physicality, nor should you want to, because we are physical creatures whose physicality must be nurtured and stimulated for us to be whole and healthy.

Give persistence hunting a try and report back with your experience. Grok on!

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320 thoughts on “Persistence Hunting in the Park”

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  1. Gentlemen,

    I’d suggest you stick with “hunting” men. I’m guessing a woman noticing this behavior might be inclined to make a scene, call the police, spray mace or have some other unpleasant reaction.

    Hey Mark, is there a coupon for a bail bondsman in the primal survival kit??

    1. Ah yes, the “all men are potential abductors/rapists/boogeymen” phenomenon… can’t stand that crap. Not saying anything about you, mind, but just stating observation on the current pathetic mindset of the country at large.

        1. I’d guess Russell’s. Justa is merely bringing up the point that women are (and should be) cautious. Russell’s comment is a little closed minded. It’s not a phenomenon. Most “abductors/rapists/boogeymen” are men. Aduh.

        2. Definitely Russell’s. I have an excellent article in mind to help us all out on this difficult-to-discuss subject, but sadly the exact title is not coming to mind.

        3. Hey Emily,

          I think I know the article you’re talking about. It’s called, “Shutup Russell”.

        4. Hey Emily – did you know that the overwhelming majority of infant abuse and deaths are the result of women/mothers?

          Thoughts?

          Does that make you feel like ALL women are bad people? Hmm??

          Or maybe just a few individual women did something bad, and maybe we shouldn’t judge the gander, more so the goose???

      1. It is sad and disappointing, but more because there are some dangerous men out there that have to ruin the lives of good people. The news daily has reports of rapes, murders, kidnappings, and so on. I have women and children I love, and when strange men are around, I’m on alert and more protective. Most men are not the ones we need to worry about, but it only takes once for something bad to happen. Trying to pretend that it is a pathetic mindset of the country, rather than a reality that there are bad people present in our society seems misguided.

        1. Yes, but it isn’t something you would generally say, you know?
          While it is true that a lot of crime in DC (where I live) is from african american ghettos, would it be “appropriate” to say I should “avoid” black people while I am in DC?
          In general, if you are alone anyone is a threat. But if you’re in the park then what is the big deal?

      2. Well if someone were acting that way around you while you were out jogging, would your first instinct be to think, they are just playing a game? I’m with Justa, it could get ugly if a man chooses a woman as his “prey”.

        1. My first instinct would be to wonder why this freak is hunting me in the park.

          I love MDA, but this is a BAD idea.

          In theory, using a faster runner as a rabbit is a great training tool, but sprinting up behind someone and then backing off…weird

      3. You’re so right. Men never rape women. Female joggers are never, ever attacked.

        Wow.

        I hope you wake up some morning suddenly female. Then maybe you’ll get it.

        1. I think what he meant was that its a public place and relatively safe. If you feel like there is a threat, then dont go jogging in the dawn/dusk hours. GO during times when there are lots of people.

          Criminals dont like witnesses, stay around plenty of other people and the actual probability of being attacked plummets im sure. At that point energy is simply wasted worrying about such things…imo it would be akin to being afraid to walk out the door, since i might be hit by lightning.

          Nobody is saying a female shouldnt be afraid if they feel they are being stalked…but use common sense and assess the situation. Are you jogging at 5am? 6-7pm? Sure, id be creeped out too, and im huge. But if we are talking noon on a sunday…..just chill tfo.

          Be smart, and not just afraid all the time. Dont let media sensationalism make you think that all of a sudden its armageddon and you need to be afraid of everyone.

      4. Also it’s not just this country that has this mindset, and may I remind you that if you’re some random stranger following me in a park, I have NO idea who you are and NO clue of your intentions. I have to assume the worst or I could wind up dead.

        Some other commenter said “oh it’s safe in a park”–B.S. …the Central Park Jogger was so labeled for good reason. SHE WAS RAPED IN A PARK.

        I’d suggest that if you’re that oversensitive about a total stranger mistrusting your intentions, and if you are THAT entitled to play-stalk a woman jogger, that you pre-arrange such with a woman you actually know and with whom you enjoy mutual trust. Hate to break it to you but you are NOT entitled to play around with random strange women without their consent, and especially if they have no clue what’s going on.

      5. Actually, that is not a pathetic mindset. Nearly 90% of all violent crimes are committed by males. Most of the time our intuition can warn us of those likely to harm us so I’m sure most of you here wouldn’t alarm someone but in a game like this my intuition might cause me to jab you in the eyes.

        Maybe the reasons it is women who hurt children is because we are the primary caregivers and there really isn’t a very good ‘village’ system set up as there used to be in tribes where mothers only had the responsibility of care for 40% of the time whereas in general we now give 100% of care while still maintaining attachment parenting (i.e. breastfeeding, babywearing, etc.) Maybe Mark should write an article on men wearing babies as some tribes do….Grok on!

        I like the idea that some of the others proposed…a husband/wife/partner game.

        I think this article is very creative but I don’t think it is a very good idea.

        1. Carrie, those are truly outlandish statistics pulled out of….what??? You guessed it. Do us all a favor please. Cite sources rather than spouting off BS numbers. You’ll appear more intelligent that way. You people are acting like a bunch of moronic babies. This article was supposed to be a fun, humorous, entertaining way to spice up your playtime. Just try to be intelligent about how you do this in public.

        2. Brian –

          Here is a link. Please, try not to be so outlandish here in a public forum. 🙂

          One of the interesting things to note from this link also is that most of the victims are men also.

          I am not living in fear here. I am just well aware of my surroundings and am not practicing denial. We all have a ‘wild’ brain and we should not think that we Primal eaters are the only people who act on ‘fight or flight.’

        3. From what I have seen in my over 40 years of experience in this life is that most children are hurt by step-fathers.

          As for strange men following or stalking me, I would also assume the worst. I have known many women who have been stalked, beaten, or raped by men. In my small town women out jogging are major targets and women do get raped in parks and even abducted off main streets and dragged into cars. I am in Australia, so it’s not just the USA.

        4. I forgot to add the link to the post. It is awaiting moderation. Spam filter I’m sure.

          For the record: I am not against this post. I read it with intrigue and a smile on my face as I envisioned the fun it would be. My comment was mainly to Russel who is in apparent denial about male perpetrators. Then after reading the rest of the comments, there are obviously quite a few people who are uncomfortable with this sort of play. Although it seems to take the fun out of it for some of us, I feel it is important to recognize their feelings, especially as people who relate to us here in the primal lifestyle. With this being said, I wouldn’t want to make anyone uncomfortable or feel as though they had to have their cortisol/wild brain kick in while on a run because I slipped up and they noticed me.

          Imagine this: We are all sitting in a room and suggest playing this ‘game’ and some people express their discomfort about it as they have here. Do we say “Ah, who cares what you think.” Or do we say, “Okay, bad idea. Let’s play a different game.”

        5. Carrie –

          A few things you should note about your statistics.

          1) Majority of homicides cited are male on male homicides (ie: no female victim).

          2) As cited per your article: Women are more likely than men to have had a prior relationship with their victims, 62% versus 36%.

          That leads to: most female instances are circumstances of domestic violence.

          3) Do you really think female perpetrated instances of domestic violence are fully reported and/or taken seriously?

          We ALL are aware of the meme that “men are violent prone” – which is what sprung the comments from Russel, Brian, and myself.

          Hey – we can talk about the misandry (funny, that’s not even a recognized english word!) in our current society if you want, but most people can’t even broach the topic.

        6. Evan – I did note that men are usually the victims in male violence in my second post.

          I’m not arguing anything about men and violence. I just read Russel’s comment as dismissive to facts so I thought I would just inform.

          Also, I am currently reading a non-fiction book by Gavin DeBecker, our Nation’s best-known expert on the prediction and management of violence, that pertains to stalking and other similar behaviors so it’s just something on my mind right now.

          As I said before, I think this game sounds creative and fun but there is a fair amount of people that represent a majority who say they wouldn’t want to be on the other side of this game. It’s just a matter of respect and having fun at the expense of someone else whether they are aware of it or not really doesn’t seem like something a responsible person who is concerned about their health, and possibly even the health of others would do.

        7. Carrie –

          Fair enough.

          In regards to russel’s comment, it would be wise to pay attention to the fact that it was even made.

          These comments aren’t made by misogynists or chauvinists either (I’m fairly certain the majority of MDA fans are open minded; I like to think I am).

          That is, why are men even saying such things that are “dismissive” to the plight of women?

      6. While I sympathise with your frustration with the view of all men as potential molestors – and I really do sympathise – you have to also look at it form the other point of view.

        Most rape victims are still female. And most rapists are still male. So a woman isn’t out of line to be a bit wary of strange men acting out hunting maneouvers on her. imo.

        I think the ‘generally stick to hunting men’ comment is a good bit of friendly advice. 🙂

      7. Well said Russel. While there are bad apples in every basket, the real problem is adolescent adults in the US unable to think and judge for themselves.

        Here’s my technique: I live my own life and ignore the catatonic freaks. If a female is unsure about me in passing, she’ll find out in short order I’m no threat when she checks out my hot ass and wonders why I didn’t pay any attention to her.

        Ah the allure of a focused man. Imitated by many, exuded by few.

      8. considering the language Mark has used and the problems a lot of women joggers have had with stalkers Justa’s comments are justified Russell. perhaps you should educate yourself and open your narrow arrogant view before trying to mansplain to the rest of us.

      9. Well, gosh–for being bogeymen, which usually don’t actually exist, they sure do manage to do a whole lot of real, actual raping. Weird!

        See if you think it’s a “pathetic mindset” when, at bare minimum, 1 in every 4 people of your gender has been raped (to say nothing of harassed, stalked, abused, etc.). If I see someone who’s been pacing me on a jogging path suddenly start sprinting up behind me, my natural instinct to defend against a possible attack that’s a very real threat on a very regular basis is going to take over. That’s not a “pathetic mindset;” that’s survival instinct.

    2. Also, it’s just plain considerate to not treat a woman as prey, given how often women are already preyed upon for real in this world.

      Can we not approach this in the sense of being considerate? Does it all have to be about what the woman will do? It’s not like she’s doing anything *wrong.*

      If you absolutely must do this with a woman jogger, I might suggest you arrange it with a female friend beforehand. And you still might get the attention of a random passing cop, so be aware of that possibility too. Don’t let your friend get too far ahead, so that you can call her back if you run into trouble.

    3. in my opinion, the point of this exercise is to not be seen. So the problem of scaring women/men into calling the police is null and void. Once you feel that you have been ‘made’ then you should move to a different target. If we were hunting deer in the same manner you would have to follow it and not be seen so this should be done the same way.

      1. good point. just hope you don’t pick a strong woman who will ‘see’ you before you notice you have been seen. 🙂

        1. “just hope you don’t pick a strong woman”

          You can’t be serious. HAHA

          Listen, I treat women kindly because I was raised to and it’s the right manner of conduct. But facts being facts, and reality being what it is, even a ‘strong’ woman is nothing to be concerned of in the physical sense you were inferring. It’s basic physiology, the male human is physically dominant.

          Of course, wimpy computer geeks fall outside the range of male and ‘ride’ the fence.

          With that said, we all need to be mindful of how we treat each other, gender/race/etc irrespective.

        2. I’m simply amazed at the lengths to which men will go in their minds to re-assure themselves that women are weaker, that men can dominate them, etc, etc. This must be the logic behind attacks on women: “She’s a woman, she’s weaker, I’m more physically dominant, survival of the fittest, etc.”

          I’m glad K-man was raised to treat women kindly, but I’m also amazed that he and so many men here seem to assume that women’s strength (and dignity, and safety)is laughable.

          I’ve been to some women’s self-defense classes, and I was amazed at how hard women can hit if they want to. You might ultimately prevail in a fight with a woman, but a strong, trained woman is going to make it cost you. I was in a fight with a man who assaulted me, and I won. I am not a martial artist, and he was bigger than me by a good bit.

          Methinks the gentlemen do protest too much.

        3. K-man, maybe on a fair one-on-one fight in a boxing ring would be true since testosterone does give men who workout an advantage on upper body strenght (but makes them a bit more sensitive to adrenaline’s mind-numbing effects which doesn’t help), but the more you take into account other real life factors the less this becomes true – weapons (can muscles stop bullets?), backup friends, knowledge of major weak spots in the body, surprise attack/first strike, fighting style/training, endurance/energy, clear-headedness, pain resistance/the ability to take a hit, getting pissed enough to come back for round 2, and willingness to do anything necessary to protect yourself (how many people don’t have it in them to kill/hospitalize someone and risk jailtime without hesitation to save themselves? Those who can will always have a psychological advantage over those who can’t)

    4. If I decided to “hunt” a women and he or she makes a scene by calling the police or whatever then I will just explain to them exactly what I am doing.

      I would tell them I am simply exercising the primal way and would ask them if they would like to know what it is….

      1. Never mind that I am already constantly watching my back and on guard whenever I’m out alone, and that if someone was worrying me enough to warrant a call to the police or my pepper spray, their behaviour would have ruined my run (as well as my day) and would probably make me avoid that park from then on. Don’t worry about that, because it’s all a great way to teach women about “the primal way”. Plus, YOU got some motivation out of it, so that’s all that matters.

        A little off topic, but I’m really sick of being told by men that I’m “overreacting” when I don’t want to walk alone at night, or go out running by myself. If it seemed like someone was following me in the park, I would get out my pepper spray, and the minute they came “right onto my heels” I wouldn’t hesitate to spray it. It bothers me that the same people who say this kind of behaviour is fine are probably the ones who blame the victim when a rape actually happens. Yes, I realize that’s a gross generalization, but it seems like anyone who has no understanding or sympathy for the amount of fear that women live with would be someone with no understanding of how and why rape happens.

      2. No, no, no. That’s not how this works. 1) No cop anywhere is going to have a shred of patience for your, “But officer! Don’t you want to know about exercising the primal way?” preaching, and at best, s/he will tell you to get the hell out of that park and go home. 2) How about, instead of putting the onus on female joggers not to get creeped out by you doing something that would appear to almost anyone who hasn’t read Mark’s blog to be creepy, you take responsibility for yourself and your own actions and recognize that the onus is on you not to come off as a creep in the first place? If you creep out someone enough that she feels the need to involve the police, YOU’RE the one making the scene, not her.

  2. What a fun idea. What a good way to step outside of the comfort zone as far as ” looking normal” is concerned.
    I can see how playgrounds and parks could offer ample opportunity to practice moving over a challenging surface.
    I have to agree that persistence hunting a woman, especially by a man, might be a bad idea. Unless it’s your significant other, and she is practicing escaping a predator. In that case, let the games begin!

    1. Haha, I thought the same thing…letting the husband wander along ahead, while I save my burst of speed to blow past him at the perfect moment! Though he’s too competitive for that I think, he’d catch me for sure.

      I honestly didn’t even think people would consider “hunting” someone smaller/more vulnerable than themselves, but my point of view is that of someone who is smaller than most people, not bigger! A bigger man would definitely have more trouble with this particular workout…

  3. this is a really cool post. Last summer i actually had this exact framework in mind when i would go hang at my local track in NYC. There were always some low and slow joggers doing endless loops, and i would really do pretty much exactly what you are saying – follow them for a couple laps, establish their pattern/pace, etc then i might fall back and rest for a minute on the side, then pick them up again for maybe one lap, then BAM id sprint like madhell and catch up to them (well, i’d keep going pass them so they didnt think i was a crazyrambokillerstalker:).
    anyway, excellent post.

  4. Mark, I was very disappointed to find that this article wasn’t about ACTUAL persistence hunting. I want to run down a deer in the park! =P

    1. SO, why don’t you? We have plenty of deer around here. I could see doing this with a deer.

      1. deer are so dangerous. I bet they would stomp you. have you seen the videos of them protecting their young?

      2. I’d love to see someone attempt this with a deer in the woods. They’re like ghosts with how quiet they are and as soon as they get spooked they’re gone. You’d have to be superman to keep up.

        1. Well if watch the video that Mark posted (follow the “persistence hunter” link.

          You can see that these bushmen run down a Kuku which is an antelope.

          Only thing is this is in a savannah plain, rather than woods. I agree that in wooded forests this wouldn’t work as well.

          As this WHOLE thread has been hijacked, perhaps quite a few have missed the point:

          The principle of persistence hunting means that despite their quicker pace, animals cannot pant whilst they run, if they cannot pant they cannot cool down, so if the human can keep them moving they eventually die of heat exhaustion…

          Humans are the ONLY animal that can “run” and cool down at the same time (due to our largely bare skin and MASSIVE amount of sweat glands)… thing is we never evolved to run marathon distances – the intermittent fractal running that Mark describes is what we are best at…

          We are clever little monkeys! 😉

        2. Can’t watch the video (thanks, Websense) but on the plains I can understand this working. If you had to rely on persistence hunting where I live, you’d be eating a lot of pork. I have actually run down hogs before while hunting (they’re not as fast and can be pretty clumsy so they’re easy to follow as they barrel through the brush).

          I’m always surprised at how fast and agile deer are in the woods. The closest I’ve come to hand’s reach was when I walked up on a spotted fawn (and that’s only because it’s natural instinct was to stay hidden). I have had some luck in the past removing my boots and stalking up for a better shot in my socks so this fall I may try using my VFF’s.

        3. @Luke in Oz

          “… the intermittent fractal running that Mark describes is what we are best at…”

          Maybe it’s best for us, Luke. (I don’t know about “what we’re best at.) But it’s not what anthropologists mean by “persistence hunting”.

          Quote:

          “To take a 60-mile run through woods and swamps and over hills and rocks after a deer is an ordinary every-day task for an Apache hunter, and he always gets the deer.”

          http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9507E0DD1030E433A25751C2A9659C94649FD7CF

          To coin a phrase, it was no walk in the park.

          Quote:

          “… he jogs along at a five miles an hour gait, never lagging, never stopping.”

          Nothing “fractal” about that.

          I’m not recommending anyone do that – just pointing out that that’s the anthropological fact, like it or not.

    2. I was thinking the same thing! I just finished Born to Run a few weeks ago and have been intrigued by the concept of persistence hunting (real hunting) ever since.

      1. I’m guessing most states don’t have a persistence hunting season, so your local game warden may persistence hunt you.

        1. Ugh, I just had this horrible vision of narrowly missing a deer with my car, only to strike a guy wearing a loin cloth and VFFs.

        2. Well, maybe, but if he stops me what is he going to arrest me for? I wouldn’t have a weapon on me. =P

          And as for the fear of hitting me with your car, I guess I can understand that. But if you hit the deer after I’ve been persistence hunting it, I call dibs!

  5. I love this post! I love when I can combine play and exercise. So much better than a treadmill.

    A variation that may seem a little less threatening (though just as crazy- but who cares?) would be running FROM people as they jog along; occasionally sprinting, jogging, crawling low behind bushes to stay out of sight, or climbing a tree to get away. Switch joggers as you come accross them, or just stay ahead of the same jogger the whole time, using your hearing or even smell (those chronic cardio folk can get smelly!) to stay just out of sight.

  6. Though I don’t play myself, the pattern of movement sounds like it could be more easily achieved by playing soccer. (Maybe basketball, too, to some degree.)

  7. Oh-my-good-god, Mark! Only a man would think stalking a woman jogger is a good idea!! The heck with “you might get sprayed with mace” — how about: you might terrify some woman who doesn’t know you from Adam!

    And Russell?
    “Ah yes, the “all men are potential abductors/rapists/boogeymen” phenomenon… can’t stand that crap.”

    Too bad you “can’t stand” what is a woman’s TRUE perception of the world. How about you go take a nice walk in a bad area in Detroit some night? See if you are uninterested in/unconcerned by who might be following or jogging up behind you!

    I’m guessing you don’t closely know many women – sister? wife? daughter? — to know that this is not some idiotic fear, but a necessary survival awareness. I’m just so astonished at your lack on understanding of women, and their true jeopardy in the world today, that I don’t even know how to answer you!

    It’s too bad good men are viewed with suspicion, but until the ACTUAL (real, physical) “abductors/rapists/boogeymen” are controlled or neutralized by good men, then the good men must suffer the appropriate suspicion a woman MUST have of unknown males! (Hell, good men should HELP women deal with both that reasonable fear and their actual danger! Not deride it as “crap”!!)

    1. Someone really needs to take a chill pill.

      Or, remove the stick from your @$$, whichever you prefer.

      It’s an article on a workout idea and a comment about how this society is scared/freaked out about way to much, mainly because of a failed media that gets off on focusing and over-reporting negatives to get higher ratings at the expense of having an overstressed and overly frightened population.

      1. Your second paragraph really isn’t called for (can’t think of a situation where it would be). It has nothing to do with the media exploiting peoples’ fear. The behavior Mark describes would be unsettling to ANYONE who encountered it, whether they had over-exposure to media scare stories or not.

        1. It’s true that if most people noticed someone intently sprinting towards them from behind it would be unsettling. However, let’s face it, most people wont notice. Most people are completely oblivious to their surroundings. Those you are aware, for the most part, are the people freaked out by the media.

      2. Rape and murder aren’t over-reported. Just the opposite. I was raped in 1992 and never reported it because it wasn’t violent and I had gotten myself into a stupid situation. But I also did not consent, and I was drunk, so it sure wasn’t consensual sex.

        I didn’t have physical injuries, but there were emotional consequences that stayed with me for a long, long time, ruined my relationship with my high school sweetheart and stunted my ability to relate well to any other man or to make healthy choices in relationships. Up to that point, I had been OK. Afterward, I was a mess for the better part of twenty years.

        This is not s?!t to play around with or scoff at. If you haven’t been there then you don’t know and you should save your opinion for something you actually know something about.

        And mine, as I said, wasn’t a violent rape. Imagine what women who’ve suffered the violence must be going through. I don’t even want to think about it.

        If you don’t want to think about us, go look up a forum on the Internet for male survivors of rape and ask *them* what *they* think. I dunno. Whatever floats your boat.

        It ceases to be a statistic when it starts being you.

        1. But they are over-reported. I don’t mean in the sense that they don’t happen or are falsely reported. I’m talking the nightly news. Not just with rape or murder, but with all negatives.

          It’s statistically true. If in one day, there’s one rape, but three cases of women fighting and preventing rape, the news is only going to cover the one rape, and they’ll cover it for days. I’m not saying that the rape shouldn’t be covered, but so showed the failed attempts.

          It’s not a secret. There are books about it. It’s common knowledge. The nightly news is designed to make you scared. They put extra attention on negatives and cover those negatives for extended time; all for the purpose of scaring you, getting ratings, and selling ads. It’s unfortunate, but it’s the truth. And believe it or not, I do know a few things about this topic, thank you.

          I’m not saying rape doesn’t happen. And how about you know what you’re talking about. If you think I don’t care about women and what happens to them, think again. My best friend is a woman and I love her with all of my heart. She means more to me than most of my own family members (immediate family included) and if something ever happened to her, better believe it, the perpetrators would be wishing for death.

          I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, that it’s not tragic, that it’s not something to be concerned about. All I said is that people are overly paranoid, because of the media.

          And I’m sorry that it happened to you. Violent or not, bad situation or not, intoxicated or not, it is tragic. And it’s unfortunate that you didn’t report it. You should have. But just because you didn’t report it doesn’t negate the FACT that the media abuses these cases. Not reporting it was your mistake, and yes, a lot of women don’t, again, a mistake.

      3. ??

        A lot of women have ‘close call’ stories, or true horror stories, unfortunately. While I’m with you on the media stuff, at the same time women worry about these things because, chances are, we’ve actually experienced them.

        Why am I careful? Several reasons. I was stalked by a schizophrenic man who ended up murdering his mother and daughter (luckily, after I moved away to college)… he was a customer in the donut shop I worked at, who I’d always thought was very nice, just a bit quiet and shy. Grabbed and dragged down an alleyway by a stranger… in broad daylight… but I happened to get away and, luckily, police were nearby and took him in. And, about 2 years before they got caught, I had a run-in with Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka (I grew up not far from his ‘hunting grounds’) that luckily came to nothing, due to her being completely stupid and using an ineffective luring technique. Long story. Will never forget their faces.

        I’m not paranoid by any means, nor do I think all men are predators… but I’m bloody aware and careful of potential situations, because they happen.

        1. Right. I lived in Jamaica Plain, MA, in the early eighties. There was a beautiful big park there. An amazing number of women had been assaulted while jogging there. I met several of them within a few days of moving to the neighborhood. Shortly after I moved there, a woman got stabbed by a junkie in the park and only survived because a couple found her bleeding. This was on a tuesday morning. she had a dog with her.
          Later somebody followed me in that park.

          I’ve been assaulted twice, and fought him off both times. Next time I’m going to simply kill anybody who assaults me. So don’t sneak up on me, boys. YOu’ll be sorry.

    2. I bet you think domestic violence is only perpetrated by men, huh?

      1. Yes, because women are incapable of hitting or hurting people…

        1. So, Joe, were close minded for being tired of being automatically labeled or thought of as predators for simply being male; or just having a differing opinion on the situation as you. SO what makes you so enlightened good sir? I love how the people who pride themselves on being so open minded automatically feel that they can label others as being close-minded just because they don’t agree with them on an issue. If you’re the example of open-mindedness, I’m glad you don’t want to associate yourself with me.

          And it’s safe to say whatever you want, just sit well with the knowledge that you’re wrong sir. So yeah, screw yourself please.

        2. HAHA. The one accusing others of ignorance is using ad hominem arguments.

          Its okay Joe, my ability to get laid has everything to do with this discussion! Thanks for the laugh.

  8. A great light-hearted idea with great potential.

    We all know how our minds can be the difference between an intense, rewarding workout, and a dissappointing, soul-sapping session. The idea of entertaining the mind in this primal scenario should work a treat! The HIIT training will come as a bonus. Beats intervals on the tredmill anyday.

  9. When I was about thirteen or so my friend Michele and I would hike barefoot up into a wild area in a park close to her house. The terrain was rough with lots of sharp rocks and pebbles. We had a favorite perch that was hidden from the path by low branches, but was visible to the rest of the park because it overlooked the whole play ground. We would pretend to be savages, looking for our prey. Then we would hear it, the sound of bells on the wind, and would jump up and run as fast as we could, jumping over bushes,cactus, and rocks, ducking under low hanging branches, hurtling fire ant mounds, running on tip toe sometimes to avoid the inevitable Texas sticker patch (“Ow Ow Ow Ow!”). Adrenaline pumped through our veins and we would worry that we wouldn’t make back to her house in time to gather the necessary tools (money, in this case)to bring down our foe. Then we would lie in wait on her front porch and soon we would see it…the ice cream truck, lumbering the street chiming its pied piper tune. We would burst off the porch run to the curb and bring down our prey, happily slurping the orange push up or biting into the helpless dreamscicle, exposing it’s vanilla innards.

    Later at the pool we were pearl divers or breaching whales or otters. None of this mindless swimming back and forth across the pool. Just a lot of swimming under water and holding our breath for as long as possible.

    Neither Michele and I were fat. We ran or swam off every calorie we ate I suspect. And those experiences were just plain FUN, unlike so much “exercise” today. Great post!

    1. Aaagh! Stickers! They’re not just in Texas! I’ve seen them all over the South. They make going barefoot interesting, that’s for sure! >.<

  10. Although I know the original intent of this was humorous, it is somewhat tasteless too. If I saw someone doing this to my wife or daughter (even though they of course would not be doing chronic cardio) I don’t care what the perpetrator’s intent was, I would put a stop to their actions.

    1. To be fair to Mark, I don’t think he ever said, “Hey men, go jogging, locate some women runners, and run them down.” Maybe he even attributed a bit of common sense to us that we would locate an appropriate person, whether a stranger or someone known or a man or a woman, and someone that could challenge us, i.e., a runner that wasn’t too fast or too slow for us, and have fun with it.

      1. the post refers to the chosen jogger as “him or her.” I can say as female jogger I would definitely use my pepper spray if someone actually hid behind a tree and then sprinted after me, not to mention be absolutely terrified. Any man who would even consider “stalking” a female jogger (pretend of otherwise) is seriously clueless.

        1. Like I said, I think we can assume people, no matter what they are doing during their day, need to exercise a bit of common sense. Yes, the post may refer to a chosen jogger as him or her. But I guess if you are imputing to Mark that he meant men go chase female joggers, you think he is writing only for a male audience. But I think enough has been said about how bad some people think this is. I also agree with the post below that I doubt most people would notice your behavior when this should be done where there are a lot of people and joggers around. Again, common sense would say don’t do this while trail running and there is only you and another jogger around. Maybe Mark had too much faith in people’s common sense though.

        2. I think another point was to do this in a way that you wouldn’t be noticed by the target. If you get noticed, you just lost your game, and you starve to death.

          Use common sense… don’t single out a lone runner in an empty park. Also pick a target that’s in their own world with headphones on, etc, and make sure they never see you. Find a “herd” of joggers, single out the weakest of the group, and hunt that one down. If they look back and also start sprinting, that’s not a good sign.

      2. SOMEONE GETS IT……the rest of this whole thread can die, it really wasnt needed.

  11. I really like the idea and can visualize it. I too would be concerned with hunting the “wrong” jogger. I guess if you hang back far enough, the prey would never be the wiser.

    The switch-off idea might be a better option, except to the casual on-looker…you will definitely look like a nut!

  12. I’m sorry, but this idea seems creepy and ill-advised. Male or female, I would NOT appreciate being chased like this. Why not chase a squirrel instead?

    1. I think you guys are missing the point. You’re not supposed to look like you’re actually chasing/hunting/stalking a person.

      1. I look over my shoulder a lot while walking in my not-so-safe neighborhood. If you were stalking me, I would know.

  13. Whew! Looks like I rocked the boat here a bit. Ha!

    First, as Justin said, I would expect all MDA readers to use common sense when trying this. There is a right and wrong way to do it and I think most people will be able to judge where the line is.

    As many have pointed out, yes, a man choosing to chase a man instead of a woman might be the first good common sense decision.

    Another way to do this playful routine would be to take a jogger friend to the park and use them as “prey”. They can do the Chronic Cardio and you can make like Grok instead.

    Last, if you’re good they’ll never know you’re there. 😉

      1. SPOT ON!

        Actually Primal Blueprint Laws 3, 5, 7, 9 and 10!!!

        3 and 5 were part of the exercise (move frequently at a slow pace and sprint once in a while).

        7 (play), 9 (avoid stupid mistakes) and 10 (use your brain) seem to be beyond all these people that have jumped onto the ISSUES that could occur!!!

        FFS people – yeah if you act creepy and stalk someone to make them uncomfortable then you deserve everything you get.

        Secondly if you are STUPID enough to read Mark’s post and just go out and do it without THINKING about how you do it, when would be appropriate etc then quite frankly you are a moron, and not applying law 10 as Brandon has just pointed out!

    1. Mark, I don’t think you’re creepy.
      Weird, but not creepy. 🙂

    2. I actually had no issue with you. I had issue with the random commenters who were saying the equivalent of, “OH QUIT GROUSING ABOUT RAPE YOU WHINYBABIES.” I really, really, really get angry when I read variations on that. It makes me wish I were about seven feet tall and musclebound so I could go hunt *them.*

      1. First of all there was only one commentor. Second, he didn’t say anything remotely offensive. He said he was upset at how the mindset nowadays is that men are all viewed as potential rapists, just because all rapists tend to be men. It doesn’t go both ways. And he is right.. No one said being aware of your safety made you a whiner.
        People are offended all too easily, even by a singular post in an online forum by someone they don’t know that isn’t even directed at them and is only vaguely offensive at best.

        1. Women who have been raped or assaulted do get offended when a game is suggested that involves hunting people like prey. Not too surprising.

          We know that all men aren’t rapists. It’s just that if I don’t know you personally, and I see you stalking me, I have to assume you might be a predator. YOu are acting like one. If I didn’t assume that and ended up dead, you’d think I was a silly person who deserved what she got.

        2. The problem here, that all you dismissive types are missing, is that when women DON’T view all men as potential rapists, people are so very quick to jump all over her because “what did she expect” and “why would she trust him” and “why did she (exist while female) do that?”

          THAT is the problem—that when we DO take precautions, you are quick to whine about how unfair it is to the poor widdle menz, and when we DON’T take precautions, you are equally quick to blame us for somebody else’s criminal actions.

          Pick one or the other. You can’t have it both ways. If more men would blame rapist men for rapists’ actions, and not blame women, then oh-so-cute little stunts like this proposal wouldn’t trigger these reactions. But you’re not. You’re all hyped up to play stalker, then all hyped up when women *gasp* don’t like being stalked, and yet still all hyped up to blame a woman whom a man has raped for being stalked!

          You people sicken me. You and you inconsistency are the problems here.

      2. Dont you understand context? His comment was made in the context of a primal “game”.

        His comment wasnt offensive in the context of the post.

        He didnt walk into a mall wearing a bill board that said, “Quit whining about rape you wussies”.

        Context. Realize you way overreacted.

    3. Mark – as I said awesome post – pity about the reaction.

      What I have just noticed, so many people have reacted along one of two lines:

      1) Mark how could you? Someone will take this literally and scare/terrorise someone

      2) Lighten up and use your common sense

      Essentially it proves EVERYONE is smart enough to realise that you wouldn’t do this WITHOUT thinking about it and you wouldn’t necessarily do this as a man, chasing a women (which seems to be the largest and justified concern).

      What is interesting is EVERYONE assumes they have enough common sense, but no one else does!?!?!

      Surely people reading these posts should realise that ALL people are smart enough to read your post and know that it should be done with some thought and consideration for the environment and the “prey”.

      For all those people saying this post is irresponsible because someone may misunderstand it – surely you aren’t arrogant enough to think you are the ONLY people to have enough common sense to see this?! Not ONE post has said – gee I never thought of that… people aren’t that stupid (AND YOU ARE NOT THAT SMART – get over yourselves!)

      Surely no-one thinks that some person has suddenly got a great idea from this post to become creepy? Creepy people with bad intention probably don’t tend to like to draw attention to themselves by crawling on their stomach and doing weird things

      If anything this post and ALL the comments prove that people are not as stupid as other people give them credit for! 🙂

  14. Interesting idea, but yes, trying this where I live would get you shot or arrested, or both.

  15. Before you try this, please consider that many states issue concealed handgun carry permits, and the jogger you choose to “hunt” may be legally carrying a concealed handgun. If you engage in such “hunting/stalking” behavior, and then come thundering up on an armed jogger, you may well find yourself the prey rather than the predator.

    I would strongly suggest that this type of play be done with a willing partner, and not with an unaware stranger.

    1. Or rabbits, which can run like crazy and need very careful stalking. Squirrels just head for the nearest tree, so that would be a pretty short run!

      1. I was just about to suggest that very thing. Rabbits are excellent for chasing. They stop after several yards, I suppose to assess their pursuer and figure out what they need to do. This gives you the chance to run them down. Just don’t hurt the little fellas.

    2. a handgum while running at the park? Hmmm? That would be annoying.

      1. Awareness of one’s surroundings, and exercising common sense are always one’s best self defense. That being said, carrying a concealed handgun (including running with one) is not nearly as annoying as you might think.

  16. Read the article with a bit of shock at this kind of behaviour, but then read the comments. What a laugh, as they say in facebook lol. Hope no one actually tries this.

  17. I did this once in Orlando, FL, although it wasn’t in a park and nowhere near any people (to you guys who took so much offense to Mark’s idea of it). In fact, I was dead-smack in the middle of the woods with nature made trails, going on for miles. So nature-y to the point that fallen trees of all sizes with craw holes gaps under and places to climb to jump/vault over. as I was walking, observing my surroundings, I began to sprint. Leaping, climbing, jumping over streams! until i came across deer tracks (this is the persistance part) that were still fresh. I keep following very silently with my VFFs on until I hear crashes next to me in the palmettos and out came three deer, scaring the hell out of me. they dash off and I started laughing with my pounding heart. then I realized I was lost… but thats another story
    No women or men chasing for me!

  18. People really need to lighten up. God forbid if we assume others to have common sense.
    Keep up the great ideas Mark. Some of us love them!!

  19. I do this with my 9 year old ALL THE TIME but on a smaller scale. The place is this HUGE outdoor play castle in my town called the Imagination Station. We play a very disorganized game and hide and seek/tag. We chase each other, hide, run, jump, and climb (the FiveFingers are AMAZING for this!). I’ll bust out a set of pullups on the monkey bars for good measure every so often, too. It’s as close as I’ll ever get to feeling 9 again. If you have little Grokitos or Grokitas, this is a fantastic way to spend a summer afternoon!

    Great post, Mark.

    1. But I especially wouldn’t do this with someone else’s kid, BTW.

      unless you’re really itching to try out Mark’s “prison workout!” LOL

  20. I get the whole ‘uproar’ of comments on this post, I personally interpreted maybe not hunting a single cardio jogger, but a pack of them. The idea behind this is to return the idea of the ‘hunt’ to our bodies not just our minds. While I am sure there will be some who do get maced arrested and the like doing this to which well proves that they didn’t keep the sense a hunter does going after prey. Does Grok go after the bear cub with Mama near by, Grok isn’t stupid. But this isn’t actual hunting either, maybe find something more satisfying chase a rabbit down, you won’t catch them before they scamper into a hole usually, but if you do… call him stew.

    1. I think the ‘uproar’ of comments is because some people just cannot appreciate good satire. Russel’s misogynistic threadjack didn’t help, either. Oh, well.

      1. I didn’t catch the ‘satire’ part of the post. BOOM! You just got comment uproared!

        1. I didn’t catch the satire either. It must be very subtle, and very funny. Maybe I’ll pretend to steal my neighbor’s car later.

      2. He is misogynistic because he is upset that all men are considered suspected rapists in this country?
        Someone needs 1000 chillograms of chill pill STAT.

        1. I’m not sure I’d use misogynistic, but definitely an uncaring, unsympathetic post to a very real and – to some who have been assaulted – debilitating fear.

        2. Sorry, Russel. I didn’t mean to call you a misogynist, per se. However, someone who truly believes that women treat all men like rapists has some sort of axe to grind, don’t you think? Knowing women who have been victimized, I will never criticize anyone for being too cautious.

          I wasn’t trying to offend the guy, but I can see why women would have a problem with that post is all.

        3. Not all men, all *unknown* men, and not suspected, but *potential*. Big difference, particularly if their actions and behavior seems suspect. Remember, the “prey” are chronic cardio people who in all likelihood have no clue what being Primal means. They wouldn’t see it as a game but a potential threat.

  21. Wow, that’s the first thing I thought “stalking 101”.

    Maybe I’ll try this with my wife. I’ll just give her a head start… then the hunt is on!

  22. Clearly not all of the readers here have common sense- see Russell’s characterization of concern about being hunted down while jogging as “crap” and “pathetic.” But I agree the majority probably do, and fortunately the commenters have clarified what should have been part of the post- don’t “play stalk” a stranger who could be physically intimidated by you (regardless of whether you or the “prey” are male or female). It’s mean and you could end up getting hurt. Of course the post has good intentions, but given how suggestible people can be I don’t think something like that should be left to assumptions.

  23. Haha this sounds fun! I have been going out sprinting a bit at lunch time but all my coworkers jog. Now I can at least participate with them. Not sure yet if I’ll warn them first… probably no need since I’m smaller than everyone and no one here owns a gun.

  24. I will be trying this in my own unique way. I was very into reading this article. I haven’t been this engaged in a while. Sure, I am not going to literally hunt down a stranger. I may choose a squirrel or rabbit instead or something.

    But doing something LIKE THIS adds A LOT of fun to a workout!!

  25. Wow, some people who follow this blog really didn’t “get” this post. Do you all know what persistence hunting is, or understand its relevance to the Primal lifestyle? If not, look it up, it’s fascinating stuff, really!

    If you’re lacking in mental facility to the point where you thought Mark was suggesting we go out and hunt down people, run down women, or any thing of the sort, then there’s really nothing anyone can do to clarify your misunderstanding. But, I would assume that most people who follow this blog are intelligent and like to think outside the box. Take it easy and don’t assume that everyone carries mace, or that you’re automatically going to get shot. Most people on this planet these days are horrendously oblivious to their surroundings as it is and are highly unlikely to notice they’re being “tracked.” I think it’s a great idea and will definitely give it a try.

    Just my opinion though.

    1. Do you watch the News. A high school girl went out for a jog and was raped and murdered. He was cought and had done the same thing the year before. Ladies feel free to mases any one that makes you uncomfortable. It’s better to be safe than sorry. Even though this was not the point of marks post let’s use rule #10.

    2. “Take it easy and don’t assume that everyone carries mace, or that you’re automatically going to get shot. Most people on this planet these days are horrendously oblivious to their surroundings as it is and are highly unlikely to notice they’re being “tracked.” ”

      It’s safer to acknowledge that strangers have the potential to be dangerous; and one should assume they are until proven otherwise. Woe be to you if you mistakenly pick one of the people who do happen to pay attention to their surroundings, and do carry some sort of personal protection. You’re right, Josh, the odds of that are very low. However, I’d rather not gamble my own safety.

      This game sounds like an interesting challenge, but if I try, it will be with friends.

  26. This sounds so fun! Obviously the people you’re “stalking” shouldn’t have a clue as to what you’re doing unless you’re acting like a fool. It’s not like they can read your mind. I loved this Mark! Thanks

    1. EXACTLY!! That seems to be the thing most are not getting!! The other person is not supposed to KNOW you’re doing some sprinting behind them.
      SHEESH!!!!!!!!!!!!

      thank you.

  27. Hate to say it, but even as a fairly big and rather laid back guy, you launch yourself from behind a tree at me while I’m running in the park…

    As Jeff Martone is fond of saying ‘nothing good can come of that’.

    Excellent idea, but I’d suggest you switch ‘partners’ often, stay a solid hundred yards back, and watch your butt. Prey shoots back sometimes.

  28. I love the spirit of this post. Use common sense, people. Keep a big distance between you and your goal. Or sneak up on a tree, for goodness sakes!

  29. Just wanted to say that as a female that will not wear headphones when running for security reasons that I was not offended by this posting.I believe that Mark is not intending for anyone to do anything stupid like frighten people. If you are doing it right then you will go unnoticed. If the person you are following glances your way for any reason at all you are spotted and must choose another. Mark never suggests that you jump out from behind a tree towards anyone.
    Do be careful I you choose to run past someone though. I always call out to them to tell them what side of them I will be passing on before actually passing. Some people are so oblivious to the world that they are startled even then but one can only do so much.

    1. Thank you for that refreshing bit of non reactionary level headedness.

  30. This post was well-intentioned but not well thought-out in execution. Looking weird would be the least of your worries. You could get the same training effect and have even more fun by getting your “prey” in on the act. If you work as a team with one (or more) predators and one prey, then both parties get a great workout. Prey that is aware of it’s pursuer creates a much bigger challenge and is more realistic. Prey can sprint, evade, etc. Switch roles to mix it up. This is something Frank Forencich of Exuberant Animal has had in his playbook for years.

  31. How about you pretend you are searching for prey if you are worried?
    You could also whip out the ol’ “sandbag with a friend” hunting game.
    And to anyone who is still somehow “offended” by the posts, I think we can all agree it was no one’s intention to make this out to be a “stalking game.” The idea is that they have no idea you are there! Then again, everyone else might be suspicious…

  32. A few years ago, a large groups of my friends starting playing capture the flag in the park every saturday evening.

    It was a BLAST! So fun. One time, I crawled on my belly army style around the whole perimter of the park to approach the other teams flag from behind. It probably took 30 minutes of crawling. I managed to grab the flag, and then sprinted like hell to my teams side of the park. Of course, my team won that round! Took them all a little while to realize what had happened, as I had seemed to come out of no where.

    I didn’t realize it at the time, but man, that was so primal! We even all wore black, from head to toe because we were playing at night.

    After the game, we’d all head back to my friends house and everyone brought a different kind of fruit to snack on.

    I sugguest trying something like this! Or another organized game of manhunt.

  33. Or you could just ride a bike. Mountain biking is all about fits and starts – short bursts of high intensity followed by low intensity. It’s full-body too as you shift your body weight around hopping over obstacles, climbing over roots, and decending. (ah, let’s not forget about descending – the adrenaline filled part!)

    1. I second mountain biking! Had a great ride today.

      I would feel weird chasing strangers – I’d probably use my kids as prey instead.

  34. Astonished by how serious people are taking this hilarious idea. Has it come to this point in society? Running and exercise must be done according to guidelines and rules. This could be a lot of fun if done the way Mark implies. Do you tell your children to carry pepper spray when they play hide and seek and tag in the sandbox? Seems like there are a lot of Korgs and not enough Groks on today’s board. The thing I love about MDA is it brings out your inner child quite often. Its sad that we don’t acknowledge our inner child more often. Grok on Mark!

  35. From what I’ve seen of most runners here they wouldn’t notice if a herd of bison crossed their path, too busy plugged into ipod land and too maxed out in the land of CC.

    Great fun Mark, as you say its all about mindset, my brother has developed the most intricate routes around London taking in themed landmarks to make his Grokathons motivating.

  36. Easy solution to the “stalking” problem: play with buddies! Make it a group event. Split the groups into predators and marked prey. Set the prey to jogging, and sneak up on them. (My kid’s outdoor primitive adventure camp (Wolfcamp) plays variation on this every day)

  37. Reminds me of playing “ditch” as a kid, except we hunted in teams against other teams acting as the prey. Maybe it’s time to take that old game out of the closet, grab a bunch of friends, break into teams, and go for it. Parks, open space, even a friendly neighborhood with nooks, crannies, alleys, etc. would work. I recall it being the best game to play just before dark, when you really had to work to see people.

    Way fun!

  38. children on a playground are generally aware that they are playing a game. the issue is with recruiting strangers without asking them when the result could be that they have a terrifying experience while you get a great workout. and that is exactly what the post suggests one do, it’s not suggesting a game of capture the flag. Which would much more fun in my opinion.

  39. this game seems like it would enhanced if your prey KNEW you and that you would, at some point, stalk and then come barreling down at them. then they would also need to keep their wits about them and really, nobody runs faster than when they’re being chased!

      1. Done. Below is the Game of Antelope.

        “This game is inspired from persistence hunting seen by the Kalahari bushmen.

        To play, a group of runners is broken into two groups: Hunters and Antelope.

        The Hunter has only one rule, to catch the Antelope. This is done through a foot chase, as done by the bushmen.

        The Antelope must behave and think as one. That being said, it should only run when it feels threatened. It may not attempt to outsmart the Hunters, as this only occurs by accident during an actual hunt.

        The most functional breakdown occurs with more than 3 total runners. 2 Hunters and 1 Antelope. In larger groups the number of Hunters should increase until they reach around 4 or 5. In a group of 8 runners it would stand to have 6 Hunters and 2 Antelope.

        If a larger group is formed then a “herd” of Antelope should begin to develop with a hunting party of no more than 6 Hunters.

        Happy Hunting.”

        And you’re welcome.

  40. I am banging my head as I read this thread.

    A lighthearted and helpful post has become a crapfest of comments.

    Really? Now we have to worry about this?

    I’m thinking if it is a primal woman that feels threatened the primal buy better watch his bits. 🙂

    I like what Mark said; if you’re really good at it, no one will know.

  41. Lol, not one of mark’s best ideas. Still, the principle of making your workout a game using your imagination is a good one.

  42. What a shame…

    I started out with a big grin on my face reading the post by Mark. I absolutely loved his description of Grok vs. the modern day “prey”.

    Sad that it turned into an opportunity for folks to remind us of the dark side of humanity. That there are people who’s thrill it is to hurt others, and how that has brought about “shoot first, ask questions later”.

  43. I’ve played a similar version of this on bicycles. Chase a car for as long as you can in a city and try to catch up to it. I’ve always thought of it as “car hunting.” Just be mindful of the law and safety!

    1. That’s funny! My driving instructor used to say, “The red light is the great equalizer,” with regards to passing other people, and why weaving in traffic wasn’t the best idea. When we would end up at red light, next to the guy that just blew bye us, my instructor would always smile & wave. I suppose you experience a similar feeling as a cyclist.

  44. This is interesting, but I’m afraid it might be a restraining orderin waiting around these parts. Recently, I’ve come across actual deer while hiking, running – I’ve made ‘some’ effort to chase after them, but I can’t quite leap/hurdle as consistently as I’d like just yet.

  45. I, personally, love this idea. I run a “boot camp” style workout in a wooded park on Saturday mornings and I think I’ve found our next workout. 1-2 prey and lots of predators all throughout the woods. Sounds like a lot of fun to me. But, you definitely won’t see me “hunting” a jogger, though.

  46. Hey,
    first time posting here, long time reader dough.

    Those who are not comfortable with chasing other people, I can suggest you my variation of hunting sessions.

    I live in Belgrade, Serbia. There is not to much parks around here, (actually there are, but I really love running around town), but there’s a lot of cars passing by. So, I jog around, and notice some car stopped on traffic light. Quickly I presume in which direction he is going in next few blocks, so I just run in front of him while he is still on cross road, and do combination of jogging, sprinting, looking back, looking forward, escaping people passing by (pretend that they are moving trees) and meet him on next traffic light few blocks after.

    It’s combination of same ingredients as park jogger hunt, but no body can you accuse you of being rapist.

    In heat of the hunt, you will be forced to cross in middle of the street, avoiding passing cars. For somebody, that might be down side because of potential risk, but on the other, it gets you pure adrenalin rush. Do it carefully.

  47. I’ve done something similar back in my gym days… pick a person on the treadmill, and ‘follow’ them. Speed up when they speed up, slow down when they slow down, etc. I think this sounds fun! and done properly (as Mark wrote), you’re nowhere near them (until you blow past them, that is).

    But I think for now I’ll stick to ‘hunting’ my sister’s Newfie/Golden 🙂

  48. Great workout motivation idea because it gives you a challenge.
    But I agree that it might be a better idea to stay away from a woman because they tend to be more cautious.
    For those who are saying men are being suspected unfairly, they are just playing the odds. Men commit between 85 to 90 percent of the murders in this country each year. Google the FBI UCRs if you don’t believe it.

  49. LOL mark your a nutter. How on earth did you come with this idea (true primal mind + some creativity i guess). Actually not a bad idea though.

    Gonna find my FEMALE prey tomorrow and try it out. Poor thing.

    😉

  50. OK, I have to post on this one. I apologize in advance, as I tend to ramble. I will try to keep it brief.
    Persistance hunting is a great workout…even better if you catch dinner.
    I grew up and now live (again, damn economy!) in some rough territory in southeastern MA. Gangs,Drugs,shootings, stabbings, Prostitution, Robberies and Personal attacks in the news everyday.
    If I think for one moment that my safety is at risk, or that of my family, I will leave your grok ass a bloody mess on the side of the road. Not a smart idea.
    Just this afternoon while at the drugstore, my senses went into “alert status”, some crazy (high) bitch was getting too close to me in the aisle, while muttering to herself. Because I am waiting tables as *one* of my jobs these days, and was on my way to the bank, I had a large amount of cash in my purse ( I wouldn’t normally) And the senses went into overdrive….I slung my bag across my body and my body language and eye contact made it very clear that my personal space was being invaded. She muttered an apology and slunk of to the next target.
    I have learned and honed these skills from living in this environment. I am by no means a hostile person, but I am aware and on alert at all times in these areas.
    I completely understand that this post was a fun idea for a great workout. I am not offended or upset by it at all. But, alas, Mark, we do not all live in your glass house, and if you act like this without me *knowing* it is a fun workout, you could wind up on the front page, next time.

  51. My Groketts, on the other hand, have inherited Mommy’s social skills (Daddy is a man of few words) and think everyone they meet is their new best friend. They have been sheltered (we lived in the “burbs” for a bit) and have ZERO street smarts. This is something I need to address without scaring them TOO much. In the same drugstore today, I helped a disabled man who was struggling..They need to learn how to trust their instincts..Now are they born, bred or learned?

  52. Very nice article.

    I understand the importance of sprints and fractal jogging, but regular jogging gives a very nice feeling of calm, it quiets the mind and you feel to flow.

  53. This is the funniest of Mark’s post yet. I imagined myself on the hunt, laughing and having great fun with the exercise. Taking looking crazy to the limit. When I started to read all of the comments, I laughed some more. Lighten up people!!! Fear is a magnet to the predator. Humor is an important part of my primal experience. This post really got the juices flowing. We all know where we’re at in life by how we react to what’s being presented.

    1. “We all know where we’re at in life by how we react to what’s being presented.”

      True, and it’s especially obvious when someone is so caught up in an idiology that he can’t see another perspective.

  54. Yeah, as much as I like this site and it’s wealth of information, this “exercise” just seems completely out there to me. Not just because of the concerns that some of the women have expressed – righfully I agree – but also because I don’t see the point of it. The same for “extreme exercise” as well where there’s a HIGH chance of bodily injury that will be counter-producive.

    If there’s anything we should mitigate in the primal lifestyle it should be the inherent risk of injury and possible death during these vigorous activities. A sense of danger and excitement might stimulate some kind of hormonal response, but at what expense?

    I’m a heavy lifter and snowboarder, so I am not saying that all dangerous activities should be avoided, but it’s not the dangerous or even exciting elements of those activites that make them beneficial (except in terms of attrition I guess).

    I’m dedicated to my results and I bust my butt to get them. That’s what my focus is and I hardly ever take a “game” mindset in pursuit of those goals. I’m all business in the gym and on the mountain.

    Again, I have no problem with anyone who craves the thrill and if that’s what keeps you in the game than who am I to judge? But I definitely don’t see the intrinsic value result-wise, so I would hesitate to even think of something like this.

    This same running pattern can be simulated solo in an open field with a little imagination. Exercising that organ in your head is a good idea too.

  55. Hey Mark,

    This is awesome – nice to see how you have adapted the information regarding persistence hunting.

    I think a lot of people have got hung up on secondary issues, instead of recognising the fact that this whole concept of persistence hunting did not involve running non stop, but rather consisted of walking, jogging, sprinting, tracking etc.

    I hope enough people get over the “stalking” issue and follow the link on persistence hunting and see not only how it was done, but how connected we used to be to our food!?

    For those hung up on the staking issue and how it may scare people I have a suggestion:

    Why don’t you team up with a friend family member that believes in chronic cardio? I know plenty of people that still believe you have to run flat out for an hour or more to maintain good health.

    You get to “safely” carry out this activity, and perhaps show them that you can get a great workout, not pushing yourself to ridiculous levels, but still maximising the benefits in terms of fat burning and cardiovascular health.

    In the end though, as Mark says, if you are doing it right the jogger wont notice you. Again, perhaps in Australia we aren’t as hung up about this, but joggers tend to run in groups, and are usually in too much pain to notice anything going on around them.

    You are never going to GRAB them physically, so I don’t see the issue? Joggers get passed by other people all the time, the only concern they will have will be their internal monologue as they say to themselves, “I wish I was as fit and healthy and slim as that person!?” 😉

    Anyway, as I said Mark, great adaptation of the principles of persistence hunting.

    Also – if you haven’t done so already peoples – follow the link on persistence hunting and see how it was not only done, but how connected we were to our food and how respectful we were of it. Long way from picking up a steak wrapped in plastic from a fridge at a major supermarket!

    Grok on!

    PS – remember one of the Primal Blueprint laws – PLAY/HAVE FUN!? People need to not take EVERYTHING so seriously!? 😉

    1. Oops – Mark already made that suggestion… U should have read all his post, not just the last line!!!

      There are safe and enjoyable ways to do this… Let’s focus on that!

  56. P.S. *Brian* re: being intelligent in public. An intelligent way to do this while engaging in ‘persistence hunting’ based exercise would be something like running intervals, doing some random squats, push ups, pullups, etc. in between the intervals. Or using a squirrel or rabbit as bait as some people suggested. That would be too difficult though right, they can probably out wit most of intelligent beings. These options are much more intelligent than pretend stalking an actual unaware person, donchya think?

    And a good way to have fun doing this is to take a friend a long and laugh along the way because you guys are the only ones stopping running to get on the ground for push ups. 🙂

    1. Carrie, that is a great idea! I’m not disagreeing with any suggestion that people, women in particular, should be exceptionally vigilant about safety. It’s just your stats (90, 40, 100%) have no basis in fact. Where did you get them? Granted, I’m a stay-at-home father, but I’m also a qualified librarian who requires proof. Seeing as how I and a number of fathers are stay-at-home dads who have cared for babies, your “100%” stat would be simply wrong. That’s all I’m getting at.

      1. Well, Hopefully my links will appear. I did post the other one above for the male vs. female perpetrator statistics but I still don’t see it. The mothering statistics are from a website I follow that has an article referencing a publication of tribal families and how they operate. I did make the qualifier of ‘generally’ because obviously this is not the case and there are of course lots of great men who do help out. My argument here wasn’t about men not caring for babies…but simply babywearing being primal/tribal and something Mark could possibly visit. (although he probably won’t see that suggestion here.) After all, what could be a better workout than having a 20 pound toddler on your back while you do all your normal chores? 🙂

        hobomama.com/2009/03/parenting-alone-we-need-more.html

        social.jrank.org/pages/1253/Violent-Crime-Gender-Differences-in-Violent-Crime-Offenders.html

        I removed the http://www. so be sure to write that in when you c&p.

        I also wrote another post that I didn’t see show up that stated that I read this article with enjoyment, smiling as I visualized the game. It was once I read some of the comments that people were uncomfortable with the idea that made me think twice. It would be like all of us sitting in a room thinking up a game and when we thought of this one and others showed valid concern we rejected their feelings and went about doing it anyways. I dunno. Maybe I’m just emotional. 🙂

  57. Wow, didn’t this one open a can of worms! I was imagining a crowded park with lots of runners, like the time I went to the Mall in Washington, D.C. With that many people, if you keep your distance and use common sense, it shouldn’t be an issue. Nobody would know WHO you were following, especially if you change targets frequently enough. And maybe chase down a bird here and there.

    Ah well, it would definitely be a fun game to play with the hubby.

  58. Wow. I read Mark’s post and thought it was a fun idea. After reading most of the remarks, it seems like people are seeing it a whole different way. You can pretty much take anything that people say or do and turn it in to a morbid example of what may happen or what the state of today’s society is.

    I think if you use a little common sense, you should be fine. For instance, if you normally jog through the park with a ski mask on and a large knife, you might want to leave them at home before trying this. 🙂

  59. I’ve done this “chase” for 40 years. However, I do it the real way…actually hunting wild boar with dogs. Try keeping up with a pack of hunting dogs that are tracking and fighting with a 250lb, PO’d pig through thick brush, up and down steep hillsides. I’m 65 and still get after it and I don’t need to worry about getting arrested or shot by a CCW jogger. And I get to eat the prey.

    1. and that makes a lot more sense to me because there is some result from it. you have food!

      what the result is of this exercise with joggers is still baffles me. If it’s a better understanding of how paleolythic hunters respected their prey… well, that seems rather self-indilgent and silly to me. and evenso, i can appreciate that without doing this.

      1. Lighten up – so you don’t see a benefit and think it’s silly.

        Some of us don’t live innards with wild boar.

        Some of us don’t take life so seriously – Primal Blueprint – have fun/play

        Some of us have enough common sense to not cause distress to the jogger and hence get in trouble – Primal Blueprint law – don’t make stupid mistakes

        Mark isn’t saying you HAVE to do anything. It’s a suggestion for those that may have sense of adventure to try something different and be a bit self indulgent – nothing wrong with that – as long as it doesn’t harm others.

        You may say I’m silly an self indulgent. I may suggest you to be self righteous. ;-). Note the smiley – as I said don’t take all of this too seriously, or personally. It’s not that important!

        Grok on!
        🙂

  60. Guys have followed me in parks. It’s scary. Please don’t do this to a woman, even as a game.

  61. This is awesome!!! I think this is an amazing idea and am a little surprised at some of the comments. Take this lightly and have some fun with it. I’m totally going to “hunt” me some joggers! 🙂

    How about hunt your own sex?

  62. Hi Mark
    I really think you should modify or withdraw your original article. Many people would blindly follow your advice. The concept is too close to the edge to be considered “good advice”. I know you tried to soften the advice in this forum but many won’t delve that far.
    The friend idea is fine. Try re-working your point around that premise.
    Cheers

  63. When I was in high school, for some reason we thought it would be fun to squirt passing cars with our squirt guns. A van started to head our way & we noticed the side slide door was open. “Sweet! we can squirt them through that open door!” we thought. As they drove past, 2 guys were standing in the doorway with buckets. My friends & I were the first victims of a drive-by soaking. Just a warning: sometimes the “prey” joins in the game 🙂

    1. Ah Peggy 0 why can’t more people be as relaxed and fun loving as you – as you said it is a game! 🙂

  64. Hmm, I’ve done this while driving a lot. Never thought to apply it to running. Will give it a shot.

  65. GOOD GOSH ALL MIGHTY PEOPLE!!

    I’ve done this countless times on the jogging trails near my house.

    You see someone up ahead, you sprint towards them and close the gap.
    THAT IS ALL!!! Has no one ever closed the gap on you while out jogging? Are you always the fastest? Mark was adding in other moves to make it funny.

    Some people can really suck the life out of some fun…

  66. If you “play a game” with somebody without them knowing it, it makes you a bit of a jerk. Even if they never know.
    I like the idea of a fun, varied, exciting workout, but there are other ways to do it. Maybe sports (like soccer) and games (like flags) came about so that people could have the fun part without the getting into a fight part.

  67. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:

    WHY DO ALL YOU PEOPLE THINK YOU ARE SMARTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE?!?!

    ALL these posts prove that NO-ONE has read Mark’s post and not thought of the precautions and considerations that are necessary.

    For all the people on their high horses – STOP being so arrogant… you are NOT the only people with common sense… we don’t need you to protect us from some hidden/unknown danger.

    ALL the posts (from BOTH points of view) indicate that EVERYONE is aware of the fact that you should be careful about who you pick as prey AND when (i.e. male vs female, lone track/path vs large park etc).

    Get over it – stop focussing on the negative and embrace the positive aspects of life for F’s sake!

    If you feel the need to feel more intelligent than everyone else, go play a game of chess, don’t come on here implying that no-one else is smart enough or socially aware enough to know how to apply this idea without causing distress.

    At the moment – NOT ONE COMMENT so far (form either camp) has indicated that ANYONE is as stupid as you assume them to be.

    People are not as stupid as other people’s ego would LIKE them to be!

    WHY have so many of you ignored the lesson of persistence hunting, health and fun and made this into some rubbish about rape, male/female relations, etc?

    I’m surprised no-one has thrown in any comments about, Democrats and Republicans yet!?!? 😉

    Perhaps that’s what everyone in the US should do? All the Democrats can “hunt” the Republicans, and all the Republican’s can “hunt” the Democrats! Sorry this Aussie just couldn’t resist 😉

    1. Isn’t EVERYONE more stupid than me??!!

      Muhuhahahahahahaha!!!!

    2. Luke sorry to inform you but the Dems are anty hunting, but they might make good prey. 🙂 lol

  68. I like this post, it’s a fun suggestion to keep things different, mixed in tempo and intensity, and exciting.

    However, I think it’s also great that people pointed out that to some runners it might feel intimidating or downright scary. It might also be dangerous for the pursuer. I can say with all certainty that anyone stalking or jumping out at me on a run will probably get a face full of mace and or a back-kick to the tender bits. That’s not ridiculous or sad, it’s a fact of life for us female runners, actually all women in general whether running or walking to their car in a dark parking lot. Dismissing it doesn’t make it go away. We ARE prey, it’s our reality.

    That being said, pursuit games can be very fun. Has anyone here run with the Hash House Harriers?

    from their wiki: “At a Hash, one or more members (Hares) lay a trail, which is then followed by the remainder of the group (the Pack or Hounds). The trail often includes false trails, short cuts, dead ends, and splits. ”

    they’re a very fun group to run with, with chapters all over the world. Running in a hash is nothing like going out for a jog!

    1. A good article. Just because some might see you as a victim/prey doesn’t make you one. A good book to read is “Meditations on Violences” by Rory Miller.

  69. Too much! A good way to start the day at the office! I think Mark was in a bit of a naughty mood when he wrote this. I think its a great idea though and cannot wait to try it!

  70. This is not a good idea. Try explaining how you were just “playing” to the police in the case that something does happen and someone gets raped in the same park where you were just “playing” and you were spotted chasing people down?

    People rant about others missing the context of Mark’s post. I think some, including Mark, have missed the context of the real ugly world we actually live in.

    “Playing” by chasing down someone who is not part of the “game” is not “playing” to them.

    How would you like it if your someone you loved got the sh$t scared out of them, or worse, by someone who decided to “play chase” them down in a park?

    How would you like it if someone chased you down, and you had no idea if they were “playing grok”, or “enacting their freaky fantasy of rape and murder” on you?

    go google “park rape” and see if you still think this is a good recreational activity.

    it isnt…. it is the same behaviour as rapists.

    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/another-jogger-attacked-on-coast/story-e6freoof-1225872071152

  71. Better played between friends, or animals…dogs are good for this.

    First I’m not going to say, don’t stalk women in this way, any gentleman should have already thought about it and decided not to.

    If you did this to me without permission you would be in danger of a) Me kicking you in the gonads thinking that you were attacking, and b) A 40 Kg hound biting your leg off.

    Primal women kick ass, they are not victims, don’t expect them to not feel you chasing them…

  72. Heh, This place is funny, I rather enjoyed reading everyones posts.

    Funny how something so simple can escalate so quickly out of control.

    I read Justa’s first post as just friendly advice.

    Think the rest of the more interesting comments count as thread hijacking and should be deleted as they are not relavant or helpful.

    But … flame on!!

  73. What a bunch of numbats lol

    I cant wait to hunt down and tackle a beautiful brunette, and take her to my cave grrrr

    (If you take that literally, you’re an idiot)

    Lighten up peoples, sheesh

  74. Bad Grok! People ought not hunt people. Nor cultivate a mindset of superiority over others.

    Want to try a “persistent hunting” workout? Go chase a rabbit. Or better yet, play stealth “capture the flag.” The rabbit doesn’t need the workout.

  75. Those that don’t have an effective plan to defend themselves are not applying rule # 10

  76. It’s hard to believe how big of a deal this was made out to be. I’m willing to bet if someone tried this with another person jogging the worst thought going through the chronic carioer’s mind would be “dang, that person is really out of shape.” If this is a busy area where people often jog is someone really going to be concerned with another person who clearly isn’t as talented at keeping pace as they are? And unless the person is running away from someone I doubt they are constantly looking over their shoulder to see who is behind them. How many times have you been out running and someone passed you? Did you pull out your pepper spray and yell at them to stay away? Tell them to stay at least 10ft away or get sprayed in the face? Or did you think nothing of it and just continue on with your routine.

    It isn’t like Mark said to hide in the bushes in a ski mask and trench coat and pounce on someone. Your thinking is out of context. A person out exercising that see’s another person out attempting to do the same activity isn’t likely to arouse suspicion.

    1. Agreed!!!

      As I mentioned earlier, when you pass the other person at the end, the only discomfort you may cause them is the internal monologue they have in their own head – “I wish I was as fit and vital as that guy/girl”

      Some people not only assume the worst, but they also feel the need to assume everyone else is stupid, so they need to “swoop in and save the day” by letting everyone know of the “danger” that ONLY they were smart enough to work out…

      The actual POINT of the post, and ANY enjoyment and excitement has been systematically squeezed out of it by the “fun police” who live in misery, and want everyone else to share their self inflicted pain of existence…

      LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE, there are WORSE problems in the world!!!

      You live a charmed life when a post about having some fun whilst exercising causes you so much distress – A LOT of people would happily trade you for your “problems”… Ever heard of the saying “the least of your problems”???

      1. LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE, there are WORSE problems in the world!!

        Worse than Rape and Murder? Because that is ultimently what there woorues are. Now the article was ment to be fun and light hearted but dismissing some fears is not productive.

      2. LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE, there are WORSE problems in the world!!

        Worse than Rape and Murder? Because that is ultimently what there worries are. Now the article was ment to be fun and light hearted but dismissing some fears is not productive.

  77. Mark, this is probably the stupidest idea you have had, what you are describing is stocking, in fact, in the last few months your posts have become pointless, i will no longer be supporting or recommending you website, there are better sites out there with more practical information on a paleo/primal lifestyle that don’t need to fluff up there site with irrelevant trash

      1. I don’t know. I’m kind of fond of run on sentences, incorrect superlatives, and improper word choice…

  78. Let me get all sociologist on y’all for a sec. Throughout the comments, with only a few exceptions, it’s MEN saying: “aw, lighten up. We’re not REALLY threatening you!” (Sorry Mark, it is *stalking* when you do it to a person you’ve not cleared it with in advance. I love your idea with a willing participant, but whew, you missed the mark with “pick any jogger.” ) Notice, too, it’s the women trying to bring some awareness to their very different perception of the world and how women joggers would feel.

    Men have written here:
    “remind us of the dark side of humanity”
    “You are never going to GRAB them physically, so I don’t see the issue?”
    “People need to not take EVERYTHING so seriously!?”
    “turn it in to a morbid example of what may happen”
    “It’s a suggestion for those that may have sense of adventure to try something different and be a bit self indulgent — nothing wrong with that — as long as it doesn’t harm others. … I said don’t take all of this too seriously, or personally. It’s not that important!”

    Not that important? That women are (actually, truly, physically) in jeopardy of carjacking at Costco? Of being kidnapped or attacked or raped or beaten no matter the time of day or location? (Dyah really think no woman is attacked in a daylight park? Or “safe” in her own home?) Should women forget that almost always it is an unknown male who does this things? It’s the foolish woman who is not a little afraid of all unknown males.

    Women are naturally (and correctly) more afraid because women are the ones who usually get threatened, attacked, and raped. And no, it’s not just the media that makes it seem so common — ask any woman friend if she has been threatened or attacked, or knows someone who has (and please don’t be so stupid as to say a threat doesn’t count! A threat — because it comes from someone larger and stronger (as most men are to most women) — absolutely causes mental and emotional harm. (Do you need to see fMRI scans to believe it? You can, they’re out there, Mr Librarian). Is it as physical as an attack? No. Does that make it any less harmful? Not by much!

    Men choosing, or suggesting, that they can be self-indulgent at the possible expense of some woman they do not know isn’t primal, it’s selfish and wrong!

    Being chased or stalked or even looked at too hard out in public: you know — prey animal seeing a predator watching them? — even has a primal name: the threat stare. It is not something women can or should “just ignore.” And it is something that happens to women all the time! You want to talk primal? Primal is that prey animals ALWAYS take predators seriously — without fail, because failure can mean death. Mark has suggested that predators can just “play” with prey animals. Women are and have always been prey animals for (some) men. (Think not? Look at the history of the primate home homo sapiens! And how is any woman supposed to sort out the good guys from the “potential abductors/rapists/boogeymen”? How can she tell if THIS pitbull running loose in the street is one of the good ones? She CAN’T!) (No, I’m not calling men pitbulls, I’m trying to help men to understand the sense of threat women deal with all the time: hoping a man can recognize that he would (rightly) be concerned about an unknown pitbull running toward him, yes?)

    I think it’s Emerson Eggerichs who talks about the fundamental, permanent, biological difference in how men and women view the world. He asks his men, at conferences, if they have feared for their physical safety at any time during the day. No hands go up. How about during the past week? No hands go up. During the past month? Still, no hands go up.

    Then he asks the men to look around them as he asks women the same question. How many women have feared for their physical safety at any time during the past month? Nearly every hand goes up. During the past week? Almost no hands go down. Have you feared for your physical safety today? MOST hands still stay up.

    It does not matter whether or not it is a realistic fear or an exaggerated fear: it is a REAL fear, and women are biologically wired to have what men consider — and denigrate, as is so very visible in these comments — this “over-reaction.” (And yes, Mr. Librarian, fMRI studies show that women and men have different brain reactions to threats — real or otherwise! It’s not stupid, it’s biology!)

    Until both sexes understand this fundamental biological difference in how we see the world (Eggerichs calls it blue glasses and pink glasses, blue hearing aids and pink hearing aids), we will continue to be at odds about this oh-so-important difference in perspective. Men will continue to denigrate women for it; women will continue to despair that men will ever “get it.”

    1. If you are going to quote what I said – don’t USE it out of context…

      “It’s a suggestion for those that may have sense of adventure to try something different and be a bit self indulgent — nothing wrong with that — as long as it doesn’t harm others. … I said don’t take all of this too seriously, or personally. It’s not that important!”

      This comment was not even REFERRING to the safety of women debate – and yet you CONVENIENTLY use it to demonise me as a man!

      I was referring to prich’s comment that the concept was silly and self-indulgent (and even he/she was not referring to the female safety issue.

      At NO STAGE have I suggested that the safety of women is not important, and whether you are a sociologist or not, your use of my words out of context to suggest I was suggesting the safety of women is not important indicates you may be a Misandrist….

      Your point does not address the point I WAS making and that is why is everyone here (male and female) that is in uproar about this post assuming that the men OR women who may take it up would not be as SMART OR as SOCIALLY AWARE as you are and realise these issues and act appropriately.

      My point is you arrogant twats assume the rest of us are stupid, and AGAIN if you read my posts, I point out that ALL these posts prove NO-ONE has been ignorant of the potential issues (including Mark – likely he assumed no one is as stupid as you assume them to be)…

      Dismissing this STUPID thread does not mean I am ignorant or do not care about the safety of women, it does however suggest I think all you people that think you are smarter than the rest of us (including those that need to get into “intellectual” issues of sociology need to LIGHTEN UP and realise that we are not all as stupid as your ego would like us to be!!! 😉

      Sociology has ALSO proven some people are perpetual victims, just as some are perpetual aggressors, the MAJORITY are neither, and many of us (male and female) are sick and tired of being stereotyped by physiology/sociology types as falling into ONLY one of these camps.

      Many women are never victims and many men are victims – to say men don’t understand women is insulting to both sexes, and may be useful for people that want to sell books based on what supposed planet we come from, but ignores the fundamental TRUTH that we are all human and far more complex than BINARY definitions.

      1. Sadly, there are a lot of stupid people reading random posts on the internet, and some of these stupid people might think, “Cool, I’ll go pretend to hunt a woman.”

        If there weren’t a good number of stupid men, there wouldn’t be so many rapes, assaults, etc.

        Most people who commit crimes like this aren’t real bright, obviously. And it’s not that rare to be kinda dumb. Or under the influence of some substance. A dumb impaired guy can be quite dangerous. Not saying this is true of anybody leaving comments here, but these guys are out there, and some have internet access…

        1. Do YOU REALLY think that some man (or women) will think – hey yeah, I’m going to go hunt a women to the point of distressing her/him?

          Do you REALLY think someone will read this and decide to do this without concern for the impact on others?

          Here’s my thought on that:

          1) weirdos DO NOT need to get their weird ideas from Mark’s Daily Apple

          2) Mark cannot post based on what someone may do under the influence of drugs – I’d say MANY of his posts would be dangerous under the influence of drugs

          3) Just because a small minority are idiots, does not mean the majority of us have to miss out on information. This is the first source of censorship, the “thought police” decide who is smart enough to view certain information and then decide that it would be just safer if NO-ONE sees any information.

          As to your assertion of stupid men being the perpetrators of rape and assault, I am sure the women raped on Uni campuses and the psychopaths with immense intelligence would prove that wrong.

          Again I have to ask, why any of you (male or female) get to decide what is allowed on this site?

          You will notice I have not made a comment at JUPITER that stated their dislike of this post and promised never to return – that is your right, you DO NOT have the right to tell us what we should read, think and feel, especially when you assume things about our intelligence and emotional/social awareness… or WORSE misquote us to slander us and suggest we are misogynists.

      2. Luke, i thought you were completely well-meaning until you called people you felt misunderstood you “twats.” I try to look at each person as an individual iespecially online where we can’t see the twinkle in a person’s eye, their gentle smile, or their eye contact or lack of eye contact–all the clues that ca make the exact same words from one person, even a stranger seem sympathetic and from another seem deliberately agressive. I filter out the typos, spelling mistakes & even the cliches(since your post comes across to me as if you feel misunderstood/attacked, i feel like i must say,you write beautifully, not talking about you) to see if i will get a new facts and/or ways of looking at the topic that i haven’t thought of or experienced.
        I just wanted you to know, though, that you lost me when you called the people you felt misunderstood you “twats.”
        It doesn’t convey your implied desire not to categorize individuals by their gender.

        1. Mahala,

          Thank you for your feedback.

          As I have stated:

          1) Until Elenor personally singled my comments out and then inferred I must have a sister etc, so couldn’t understand I never made personal attacks/statements towards any individual

          2) I used the word you referred to in the English/Australian context – I’m Australian – and as I have noted I forgot that Americans use that word to refer to female genitalia. I have noted this and apologised. I would NEVER use that word in that context. As I said look up the word wikipedia and it clearly states that the UK (English) use is not the same. It doesn’t mention Australia, but we use it like the English – which is someone that is a fool. There is no way I would ever use a statement to refer to the sex of a person – as I have stated and ALL my other posts reflect, so I hope you can recognise thus was a cultural mismatch of the word – lost in translation.

          ONCE AGAIN to the Americans that interpreted my use of a word that has a completely different meaning in your country to mine – I apologise.

          The intent was not gender based at all.

          🙂

    2. So Elenor – answer this – whether the runner is running as suggested here, or as a normal jogger – HOW would the outcome be different for the hyper-vigilant person they run up to and pass (again – female or male – both could be concerned)???

      When reading what Mark posted he does not suggest that you run up to the jogger, then fall back, so they are aware of you, you just have picked someone in the distance to eventually catch up to (again MANY “regular” joggers do this EVERY DAY – why don’t you ALL take your concerns to the running blogs, and make sure ALL those runners know how much psychological damage they are doing if they EVER run up to and pass another person, especially those male runners that pass female runners?!

      Most humans can see many hundreds of yards ahead, and can keep someone in sight (whether running primally or walking or running chronic cardio), and MANY runners will see a runner ahead and make it a target to catch up and pass them. Whether that is done in 5 minutes or 30 minutes what difference does it make (for some of us it takes 30 minutes to do it when running Chronic Cardio style!)

      Again my point is this technique is NO different in terms of the NORMAL rules you would apply to running – even chronic cardio joggers know that they shouldn’d purposely freak other people out (AGAIN female or male).

      YES they do sometimes, but we don’t outlaw chronic cardio because of misunderstandings (that will always occur).

      1. Hello, the post suggests you hide behind a tree!! To run up close behind an unaware person, then fall “out of site”, then suddenly reappear and run after them! That is a long way from normal running. Ask any policeman what he or she would think of that kind of behavior if you want to know how “regular” it is.

  79. And, oh yeah:

    Luke adds:
    “In the end though, as Mark says, if you are doing it right the jogger wont notice you.”

    And if she does notice you? If you’re NOT doing it right or maybe she has already been attacked in her life and, so, is hyper-vigilant about her safety while jogging in a daylight crowded park? “Oh well, too bad for her,” right? You’ve just terrified some woman you don’t know, but, hey, no harm no foul?! “You are never going to GRAB them physically, so I don’t see the issue.” (Obviously not!)

    I’m guessing you have no daughter, no wife, maybe even no sister, with whom to empathize? If your daughter came home, flooded with her entirely appropriate fear-reaction to being “stalked” while out jogging by some primal nut who decided it was okay to stalk her: would you tell HER she needs “to not take EVERYTHING so seriously”?

    Do you actually think it’s okay to “play” with some woman’s mind and emotions because — well, hell, you’re just getting primally fit.

    1. What if the same scenario plays out but without the intent suggested here? By that I mean, what if I go to the park and decide I want to run some intervals, just intervals, no primal games or stalking involved. And while running intervals I stay behind someone and while I get close to the person, I never truly pass them. (Nor do I care about passing them, since I’m only focused on my exercise and not them). To finish the work out I decide to do an all out sprint during which I finally pass the person and then stop to walk for a cool down.

      Am I at fault because a hyper-vigilant person interpreted my actions as hostile? I was just working out, same as them. It’s the exact same scenario here, just remove the “game” motivation.

      1. EXACTLY Jus..

        At no point has ANYONE going on about any of the QUITE REAL concerns some may have about being followed whilst running or passed whilst running addressed the FACT that this would be no different whether done as Mark suggested here OR as a “normal” chronic cardio workout.

        YET they get up on their high horse in their ivory tower and demonise Mark, this idea and those that see it for what it is, which is a FUN variation on the normal workout… they IGNORE the fact that the same perceived concern could (and likely does) occur for regular running, cause then they’d have to get down form both the horse and the tower of elephant tusk!!! 😉

        There are males AND females that have recognised this post for what it is, and noted it would be fun, without getting in a froth, because they also recognise that this is no different to normal jogging/running in that you MUST be aware of others when you run and the impact you have on them.

        I suggest all these people get onto Runners World and ensure ALL the runners there are aware of the emotional distress their filthy, stupid, absurd, silly, self-indulgent sport inflicts on others!!! 🙂

        There are places and times I do not feel safe walking or running in Sydney. Am I stupid for feeling that way – NO, and I have never suggested anyone’s fear of harm by those that mean harm is unwarranted – However it also does not mean that everyone there is posing a threat to me.

        As my MOTHER has told me (how convenient Elenor forgot EVERY man has a mother – it didn’t help her point about me not understanding!!! – haha), she has no issue with men in running gear approaching her, especially if they look like they are exercising, she has been concerned with people approaching her when they aren’t doing any exercise (why are they there) and especially when they are wearing clothing that suggests that exercise is the furthest thing from their mind. Then again, my mother is one of the smartest people I know, so she is likely using logic in assessing who and what may be a threat and who/what may not be.

        Call my Mother and me stupid, but SHE taught me that:

        1) the majority of people are good, decent human beings (just as we wish others to think of us)

        2) you should use your brain and minimise risk by assessing the available data/inputs

        3) life is NOT completely without risk. Doesn’t mean you should be a victim, but you shouldn’t live your life in fear of what MAY be if it prevents your enjoyment of what IS – as I said, my mother is the smartest person I know!!! 😉

    2. And ONCE again you select a few words from a post out of context to support your rampant Misandristy…

      At no point do ANY of my posts distinguish between males or females, because I would imagine male or female ANYONE would be worried if they observed your behaviour.

      Once again you attempt to pseudo-pychoanlaylise me based on your prejudices… making inferences about my family and my relationships within them.

      Despite ALL this – you have used your biases to cherry pick my posts (and no doubt the posts of others) to support your position, by ignoring the point I was making which is no one is suggesting you STALK someone in a way that makes them uncomfortable (notice I didn’t suggest you cannot comprehend or suggest you lack understanding as you suggest of me – I simply suggest you consciously ignore what doesn’t support your point of view – I NEVER insult your intelligence).

      NO – I do not think it is OK to play with some woman’s mind and emotions FOR ANY REASON. I also do not think it is OK for the same to be done to a man.

      I DO however believe that this activity CAN be done without distress to women or men.

      Again you assume I (and others) are not as smart or emotionally aware as yourself – how is it up on that high horse in your ivory tower?

      I have run many times (not like this – just in general chronic cardio style) and caught up and passed women, men and children, most times I just say G’day as I pass and they reply in kind. If anyone indicates my “sudden” presence I apologise (it has happened maybe 3 times out of hundreds). Likewise I have men, women AND children pass me (i’m not a great runner), same deal.

      My point, and the point of many is NO-ONE even the paranoid, when running turns and looks around all the time… and if I did encounter someone like that (female or male) in the future I’d just make it clear I wasn’t intending anything untoward (no-one ever in my years of running has noticed me until I was on their heels (despite the fact I could have been approaching them for miles).

      I NOW wonder how many of the people up in arms over the terrorisation of women (and hopefully possibly the same for some poor men too) actually RUNS?!

      I suggest if you do have a point to make about ANY men here that you think do not understand you choose to quote the men that have stated FEMALES have nothing to worry about and females should not take things so seriously with regards to their safety.

      I have never said females should not care for their safety, I never would, and to suggest I have by quoting my words out of context is slanderous – I suggest you cease to do so… You are impugning my character with regard to my respect, empathy and understanding of women, when at no stage have I EVER made reference to a person’s sex or directed my comments at someone because of their sex with regard to this topic. My suggestion to lighten up is directed to all people, and as I will repeat again, my main point is why has this STUPID thread occurred when it is based on one group assuming everyone else is too stupid and not emotionally/socially aware enough to realise their impact on others – I repeat – GET OVER YOURSELVES!

  80. >This comment was not even REFERRING
    >to the safety of women debate …
    >I was referring to prich’s comment
    >that the concept was silly and
    >self-indulgent (and even he/she was
    >not referring to the female safety
    >issue.

    But don’t you see Luke? You CANNOT discuss stalking a woman and NOT have it relate to the female safety issue! The two cannot be separated. I’m not suggesting you don’t think “actual” safety for women is important — I’m pointing out that you have no conception whatsoever of how a woman feels when stalked (real or mock), and whether or not her fears are rational, reasonable, and appropriate. All of your messages have glossed over or rejected the idea that stalking any woman anywhere, whether or not you mean her harm, is flat-out wrong! You seem to be trying to say that there IS some circumstance under which it’s “okay” to stalk some woman you do not know (i.e., for primal fitness).

    >…indicates you may be a Misandrist….

    On the contrary, at the risk of horrifying the women here, I’m so far to the right that I just about fall off the scale. I am thrilled that my husband wears a .45 on his hip when we’re out. I am, if anything, an anti-feminist! I applaud the primal male’s desire to return to his biological roots. I am suggesting he not forget that women’s “primal” (biological) experiences differ, substantially, from men’s!

    >Your point does not address the point
    >I WAS making and that is why is
    >everyone here (male and female) that
    >is in uproar about this post assuming
    >that the men OR women who may take it
    >up would not be as SMART OR as
    >SOCIALLY AWARE as you are and realise
    >these issues and act appropriately.

    It’s not about socially aware: if you, if ANYONE, stalks a woman — and Mark’s description is, alas, just exactly that! — then you are not aware of a woman’s natural biological mindset! Men who take this up will naturally (because ‘Nature’-ally, they don’t view the world the same way!) *not understand* how their experience of it differs from the women’s experience — predator vs. prey!!

    >My point is you arrogant twats assume
    >the rest of us are stupid,

    ?! Quite the gentleman, eh?

    I’m assuming only that you do not — as so many men do not — understand how WOMEN view the world. How women RIGHTLY recognize — however unconsciously or consciously — that just like the antelope y’all are pretending she is — she IS a prey animal in the world! And prey animals do not think a predator “playing” with them is okay.

    (You didn’t answer my comment either: what about when youre not “doing it right” — what about when the woman you’re stalking DOES see you and rightly fears for her safety? You okay with that? You just don’t care about that specific woman’s terror? If everyone is ‘smart and socially aware’ enough — then they WILL recognize that woman’s (any woman’s) entirely appropriate fear when stalked by some primal male — and he will not EVER do it!

    >and AGAIN if you read my posts, I
    >point out that ALL these posts prove
    >NO-ONE has been ignorant of the
    >potential issues (including Mark –
    >likely he assumed no one is as stupid
    >as you assume them to be)…

    Mark is a man. Mark is probably rarely if ever conscious of his physical safety. He probably does not ever think twice before walking down to his mailbox after dark – it would never occur to him to fear for his safety. Is there ANY woman on this thread who does NOT think, however briefly, about her safety before walking out in the dark?

    I-m not saying Mark is stupid, or even that you are stupid — I’m saying this is a HUGE blind spot nearly all men have, because they are biologically wired differently from women! Your every message merely confirms that difference. Where it would probably never occur to you to fear for your personal, physical safety if some guy began stalking you while you were out jogging — there is probably not a woman in the world who would not react to that “stalking” with fear. That’s not about stupidity — it’s about experience of the world! And men’s is DIFFERENT from women’s!

    >Dismissing this STUPID thread does not
    >mean I am ignorant or do not care
    >about the safety of women, it does
    >however suggest I think all you people
    >that think you are smarter than the
    >rest of us (including those that need
    >to get into “intellectual” issues of
    >sociology need to LIGHTEN UP and >realise that we are not all as stupid >as your ego would like us to be!!! 😉

    See? You don’t get it — this is not about stupid or smart — it’s about the entirely different world views between prey and predator. (Nietzsche calls it master morality and slave morality.) The predator needn’t fear for his safety, and it never occurs to him that he should. The prey is *always* aware of her safety — or lack of it — and it colors every single thing she does! (“All you people that think””? Are you arguing with me or some chorus in your head?)

    >… to say men don’t understand women
    >is insulting to both sexes…

    There is nothing insulting about a normal biological difference. There is no possibility for a man to understand a woman, nor a woman to understand a man — not on the most fundamental, biological levels. Do you ever think about your safety before stepping out into the night? If not, then you cannot ever imagine what being a woman is like. Just as no woman (unless brainwashed into thinking she can be Buffy the Vampire Slayer) can ever step out into the night withOUT thinking about her safety, at some level, in some way.

    That’s not stupid or smart — it’s a fundamentally different way of viewing the world! And yes, it’s the difference between predators and prey!

    >, and may be useful for people that
    >want to sell books based on what
    >supposed planet we come from, but
    >ignores the fundamental TRUTH that we
    >are all human and far more complex
    >than BINARY definitions.

    Yeah, yeah, we’re all individuals, blah blah blah… So — do you assume every single uncontrolled pitbull you see running after you as you jog is one of the friendly ones? Or do you weigh the likelihood that any pitbull, more so than, say, a collie, may prove to be massively dangerous to you until you learn otherwise about this specific pitbull?

    Do you wait to look to your safety until AFTER you’ve discovered whether this dog is offering kisses or slavering jaws? Or do you assume that all pitbulls are all “human” and far more complex that binary definitions – in which case you’re just as likely to be mauled as greeted with joy?

    Women reasonably look at all unknown men as possible “potential abductors/rapists/boogeymen” — there is no other way to safety. It’s too bad that hurts your feelings, but better your feelings get hurt, than some woman ignore a stalker while she’s jogging!

    1. AND YET AGAIN you ignore the plain and simple fact this is NO different to running “normal” chronic cardio.

      My point about this being done without distress remains – IF you can run normal chronic cardio without distressing women (or men) you can do this.

      “arrogant twats” – a twat in Australia and England is a derogatory term, I just realised you Americans refer to female genitalia, my apologies for using that term without realising the American sensitivities (look up the word in wikipedia if you want confirmation of the fact that in the UK and Australia it is not used to refer to female genitalia., again my apologies, I would never use that term.

      As I have stated – ad nausea – I consciously CHOSE not not get into the female safety debate here, because whilst I agree it is relevant to the safety of women, I DO NOT agree that Mark’s post is an INVITATION for men to stalk women.

      AGAIN I believe people are smarter than you give us credit for, and I did not even THINK that I would do this to a women (because I AM aware of the issue), but I ALSO do NOT see this as ANY different to when running chronic cardio, so I do NOT see the justification for demonising this post, Mark, or myself of others as you have, simply because we do not see this as ANY different to ANY activity in a public place.

      IF you can point out WHERE in Mark’s post he explicitly states you should terrorise a member of the opposite sex, I retract ALL my statements?

      You should read a book called “The Fall” – you will see that your belief that women have always been the prey of men is not entirely true. However based on your assertion of being far right (which by the way does not mean you are free of Misandrist) you may not like it though, as it does point out that religions have largely perpetuated the oppression of women and children at the hands of men with their assertion that men are superior to men (the suggestion females were made from the spare parts of men, just to keep him happy is the 1st and ultimate insult to women!!!)

      My point remains, you have used my quotes to suggest I am dismissive of the fear women feel, you now twist it to suggest that not directing my comments at this suggests I am ignorant of it – neither are true and both are insulting.

      I am sorry you view the world in such harsh and stark terms of men vs women. I am surrounded by a family and friends that are not subjected to such views of the world. And FOR YOUR INFORMATION, on both my fathers and my mothers side our family has had matriarchs that have been the guiding influence on us all (and remain so), so don’t EVER tell me I don’t understand women and wouldn’t be capable of doing so.

      At no stage prior to your unwarranted attack on the character of me have I suggested someone lacks in character – who the HELL are you to judge me or anyone else?

      I have made my points without being personal (I went to lengths to point out my dig about self-righteousness was a joke). I made generalisations, but I did not as you did single out an individual for Weeties-box psychoanalysis.

      Look at your derision with “we are all individuals… blah blah blah…” funny, but my statement that quoted wasn’t ANY THING about individuality, you pick and choose stuff to make a point, without regard to the context… if ANYTHING I was saying the majority of us are the SAME – i.e. I do NOT subscribe to the women vs men debate – I think we are ALL HUMAN – how is that a comment about individuality!?!?!

      Regarding the comment about pitbulls, refer to my post about my mums wisdom… yeah pitbulls maybe (i.e. a guy on a running track in jeans and a hoodie), as opposed to a labrador (i.e. the guy seating his ass off and in running gear). BOTH COULD BITE you, but based on intelligent deduction, you’d assume the pitbull is more likely to, and so take precautions….

      Again, just because I assume most men aren’t pitbulls, does not mean I ignore the danger of pitbulls, I just know that there are more labradors than pitbulls, and IF and WHEN I see a pitbull I take precautions, when I see a labrador, I don’t fret, but also don’t think I am entire safe (again, signs like a wagging tail are pretty good indicators).

      I am aware of the danger of some breeds of dogs, but that does not mean I demonise and put down all breeds I encounter. It also does NOT mean I am ignorant or incapable of understanding the fear of those that some people feel towards ALL dogs, but that doesn’t mean i have to agree with them that all dogs are bad.. And I’d like them to recognise the breeds/signs that may indicate that you don’t have to worry – anyway now we need Caesar Milan to sort this issue out!? 😉

    2. Are you a sociologist or biologist?

      I studied biology, and there is no fundamental difference in biology that makes women less secure.

      There are sociological reasons, but no biological reasons.

      You picked the wrong male to single out Elenor for two reasons:

      1) I NEVER made any comments about the concerns of females for their safety being irrational (although I did, and continue to state this is no different to any other running)

      2) I’m not ignorant of the oppression of women by males, and in fact in many areas I am more of a feminist that most of my female friends

      3) I have never done this before, but I cannot stand your assertions that I would not know what fear for my physical safety is, as I am a man. I am gay, and growing up in the outer suburbs of Sydney I know all too well what it is like to fear for your safety just because of who you are. Even in Sydney city, when I was growing up (which was a while ago now) I often feared for my safety and was physically and verbally abused by people (mostly men, but some women) that feel the need to attack someone due to their sexuality. So quite frankly when it comes to your crap about me not understanding, all i can say is – piss off!!! I have little regard now if that is rude or not.

      Whilst I have experienced that fear, I have also learnt to not let it rule my life. In some instances I am more aware of it, to this day there are areas of Sydney and situations I would not show affection to a partner, but I will not live in fear because of it.

      As I stated I was brought up in a family of matriarchs (and for those that are wondering if that is why I’m gay – I’m one of 28 cousins, and I’m the only one) and we were taught and only knew respect for women.

      I have both gotten into fights protecting women that have been intimidated by men, I am aware of what women experience, both from experience and empathy (funny isn’t it, gay guys are often much more respectful of women that hetero men – that has ALWAYS confused me) I have also protected other guys from bullies – I cannot stand people that use their physical size to intimidate others.

      I cannot believe I have had to state this, but I just cannot sit her and let you attack my character and my understanding of what women experience, on some premise that I have never left the house with fear. Sorry to say I have.

      No doubt you will claim that even this fear I have experienced myself is not the same. I acknowledge it isn’t, but it does let me have some insight to what it feels like, so I once again say back off with your rubbish psychoanalysis of me and what I know, feel, think, understand and experience – you have NO IDEA of who I am, and from what you have written here, I am now of the firm opinion, even with years more study you never would.

      I have to finish this, as I have to retire for the evening. It is a shame you felt the need to make your comments personal and directed towards a specific individual, you say you are intelligent, and yet so many others had the decency to attack the argument and not the person, which is how I always try and post here, until your unwarranted attack on my character and what you THINK I do or do not know or feel – you are an arrogant person to presume so much about another human being.

      For everyone else – just read the post (and not all this other rubbish) and see it for what it is – a variation on a chronic cardio run, that adds some fun, and LIKE a chronic cardiio run, don’t do anything that may distress another human being (though most of us do that all the time – even when posting on MDA)

      😉

      1. Oh – and don’t think I want empathy or am using my sexuality as an excuse, I hate I had to state it, but it is central to why I feel I do understand what females feel in terms of fearing for their safety.

        I am not a flag waving gay guy… I don’t think there is any “pride” in being gay – I don’t think there is any shame either… likewise there is no pride or shame in being heterosexual… pride and sexuality is foreign to me. But in this case I made an exception, as it does speak to why your assumptions about me are false…

        Also, I didn’t want to do this to you, but you fail to recognise the logic paradox in your argument when you emphatically state that men and women are fundamentally different, and so men cannot EVER understand women.

        Well IF your statement is true, then as a WOMAN, you cannot EVER understand a man, and hence what he thinks/feels, so any statements you make about us must be false!!!

        😉

    3. I’m just posting on you’re pit bull comment…I think that that is one of the most ignorant statements made in these postings. I would actually be more scared of the collie or a German sheppard than a pit bull. Statistically, you’re much more likely to be mauled and killed by dogs other than pit bulls. I’d be a lot quicker to kick the collie in the jaw the the pit. But as someone whose grown up with several breeds of dogs, including pits, in my houses and friends houses, and who has been but by multiple dogs, I understand this, and don’t expect most the ignorant population in this country to understand that.

  81. Persistence

    Namkabe, sitting on the mountain high,
    Saw the sun settle with a gentle sigh.
    Recalling the baboons with their red butts,
    He ran to the children down by the huts.
    Falling forward with each gentle step forth,
    Leaving perfect footprints impressed in earth.
    The hungry band stood around the bright fire,
    With hopes of a situation less dire.
    With their hunger slightly sated, he spoke:
    “People, our ancestors we will invoke,
    Drinking for the hunt under the full moon
    Which won’t end until the sun hits high noon.
    In this light the kudu will play too late;
    This time tomorrow, you may say we ate.
    Women, bring the water for the hunters,
    Then fill their cups like God’s flowing rivers.
    My good people, we shall drink, we shall drink.”
    With this speech the young Nate began to think
    Guilty thoughts of the fat he received from
    Xabon, wrinkled with womanly wisdom.
    With full belly under a tree he sat,
    ‘Till Namkabe said to sleep where he’s at.
    “No,” he said, “I want to go out with you.”
    “You will, early tomorrow rendezvous
    With me under the old tree near the lake
    And at the right time the lead you will take,”
    Namkabe said to the eager young boy,
    Whose attitude this assurance did cloy.
    So, in his peaceful slumber he did dream,
    Of the fleeing kudu, and the chasing team.
    In the night Namkabe stayed far downwind,
    Lest the hunt be over before its end.
    But then, the slightest noise distracted him,
    And he ‘gan to follow it on a whim.
    Under a pile of rocks he thought its source,
    Which he was slightly nervous to coerce.
    He made way to it very carefully,
    Then a bird flew out all too suddenly.
    Like a scared little girl he shrieked too loud;
    Yet, of what he found he was still proud.
    There was a bird’s nest with five little eggs,
    Which did tickle him right down to his legs.
    He picked them up and saved them for breakfast,
    So that his old legs would not tire too fast.
    The eggs carefully packed within his bag,
    On his way to the tree he did not lag.
    Once there he remembered a little trick,
    And into the ground his spear he did stick.
    Miles away he heard the elephants play,
    Where water and kudu would be by day.
    Assured of their thirst he slept by the tree,
    ‘Till by the morning light the night would flee.
    Whence the sun rose to heat the fresh, new day,
    Along came Nate, and the wise Karoha.
    “Why do you dare to sleep, you senile old fool?
    Is there a reason you’re covered in drool?”
    Karoha said to the waking old man,
    “I hope that you have not foiled our plan.”
    “Never,” Namkabe said to Karoha,
    “At the watering hole, the kudu play.”
    With open distrust they began to run,
    As their skin began to bake from the sun.
    The pace Namkabe was setting scared Nate,
    For it was he who would be running late.
    The dry sand made the kudu hard to track,
    And in his limited skill he hung back.
    Eventually, they came upon a hill,
    And ‘gan to speak like birds, in coo and shrill;
    The kudu were there on the other side.
    They waited for Namkabe to decide.
    Then, the old fool stalked silently upwind,
    And crouched behind a rock, breaking his wind.
    He signaled for the young men to prepare,
    For the kudu would soon be gone from there.
    To his delight the kudu ran away,
    But not so fast that the men rued the day.
    Up in the air Namkabe threw his cane,
    And with this gesture the meaning was plain.
    The chase had begun. It was time to run;
    The kudu would tire under the high sun.
    By the big rock the tired old man did stay,
    And it was Karoha who led the way.
    They began to single out the old bull,
    Their heads, as well as its, began to lull.
    In trance they felt his every step and breath,
    And the weight of his horns would speed his death.
    The hours passed as they expressed with their hands
    As needed, and also from their sweat glands.
    With bull alone, and sun at its highest,
    Karoha signaled he must stop and rest.
    “I cannot run any longer,” he said.
    “Go, and run the old lizard’s trail ahead,
    Run fast, beat him to the crooked shade tree.”
    Nate sprinted in sand, alone, wild, and free.
    He worried the bull would hide in thicket,
    Catching its breath, leading to a forfeit.
    But, a sooner worry was the old trail;
    Treachery forced his tired legs to fail.
    Reminded of Uahe who had died,
    Stifling his scream, Nate fell down and cried.
    A sidewinder took his soul far too soon,
    Four short years ago, on this trail at noon.
    In agony Nate lied there far too long,
    Until water to lips brought him along.
    He staggered amongst the rocks, and stumbled
    Until he felt his stomach, which rumbled.
    He forgot where the crooked shade tree was,
    Yet this was no necessity for pause.
    He heard faint rustling, in his tracks he stopped,
    His body screaming at him, his head dropped.
    Moving with the earth, conscious of nothing,
    ‘Till he saw a print, and began crouching.
    His spear he grasped in hand, and he was there
    Beneath the crooked shade tree sucking air.
    It leapt to its feet, but began stumbling,
    Eyes glazed over, it fell in the clearing.
    By the ritual he was taught to know,
    Into the kudu’s chest he made the throw.
    He knelt beside the dying animal,
    And sprinkled sand as was conventional.
    He touched the old bull, and felt its last breath,
    Giving thanks for this animal’s good death.
    He scooped out the animal’s saliva,
    Salving his sore knees, which burned like lava.
    He lied in the sand by the dead creature
    For half an hour, waiting for composure.
    When the young man finally could, he stood,
    Knowing that his band would not starve for food.

  82. >I DO however believe that this activity CAN be
    > done without distress to women or men.

    And this sums it up entirely. This is where you and I cannot ever come to an agreement. You (as a man) believe — I’m guessing because of how you would feel about it were it to happen to you — that there is a way to do Mark’s “hunting” (my “stalking”) that does not distress whatever woman it is you’ve decided without her permission or knowledge to “hunt.” I am stating (as a woman) that I do not believe this is possible. Perhaps I am misunderstanding Mark’s:
    ==========
    Regard your prey. Pick a jogger, any jogger, and let him or her gain some distance on you. A few dozen yards, perhaps. Now, walk after your target.
    Keep your eye on the target, but let it gain ground on you.
    When your target is a few hundred yards ahead, start to jog. Don’t let it range too far ahead, but don’t over exert yourself.”
    Keep that pace for a couple minutes. Now speed up a bit. If you begin to gain ground, stop before you catch up completely.
    Now sprint! Sprint for thirty seconds, and really push it — you might even be licking at their heels, but do not pass your prey.
    Stop. Let them continue on. Once they’ve turned a corner, passed behind a bend, or otherwise disappeared from sight, continue on.
    Sprint for two seconds, stop for three, then jog for ten. Leap over branches, vault over bushes. Hide behind a tree for a second or two. You can even drop to all fours and crawl along the trail for a bit.
    Once you catch sight of your target, catch up by any and all means. Sprint if you have to. Just pass them up (no actual hunting, of course) and take a breather.
    ==========

    Perhaps I’m not.

    That is SO not your “run[ing] many times … and caught up and passed women, men and children” or Jus’s “while running intervals I stay behind someone and while I get close to the person, I never truly pass them.”

    Hugely, hugely different program! (And, as I wrote — I think Mark’s idea is *super* WITH A KNOWLEDGEABLE PARTNER! With someone who is playing along with you.

    NOT NOT NOT Mark’s “pick a jogger, any jogger” — not ever!

    1. Again – not an issue – as I have said in the FEW times out of hundreds someone has been startled by my presence whilst chronic cardio running, I have just said G’day and as I have said most people can see, if you are exercising and sweating that is LIKELY your intent – not all of us (even not all women I have run past towards etc) think the worst.

      I am CERTAIN if I ran at them in jeans, they’d be WTF – but I’m not that stupid or insensitive… also most guys WOULD freak out if you ran towards them fully clothed (again I do not buy your assertion men don’t ever feel concerned for their safety).

      Even if I “licked at their heels” for a while (optional mind you), I’d say G’day and quickly say, I’m doing intervals (male of female), and most would be fine, again I have to ask – DO YOU RUN!?! Or are you pontificating as someone that has no idea of the culture and how you interact with others whilst on a run? Again I am not assuming you don’t (like you do for me), I’m asking you.

    2. AGAIN – your assertion, not “pick a jogger, any jogger” – not ever! is out of whack with what happens weekend after weekend, day after day, evening after evening (probably less likely) with people doing chronic cardio runs…

      Even without people knowing you, runners do see people ahead of them and either decide to:

      1) match their pace for as long as they can

      2) catch up to them

      3) pass them

      They do this without the other persons knowledge or permission.

      Often I have seen runners pass me, and the later I have passed them, this happens.

      Again I run with females, they don’t assume the person passing them is playing with them (emotionally or mentally), they just assume (as I do) that the person is doing their training as they see fit.

      ONCE AGAN – you have a lot to say about me and my ability to understand, however I ask, how is Mark’s suggestion ANY different to what runners do all the time during chronic cardio!?

      You (and others here – you are not alone) have continued to ignore this – you demonise this suggestion, without regard to how it is no different to what people do already, the only difference being the technique (the intent is the same – pick a target (runner) and track/pass them, just at a a chronic cardio pace, are with intervals rather than fractal running.

      What evidence do you have that fractal pursuits are more distressing to someone else to base this hysteria?

      Note – Hysteria is a word that perpetuates the male dominance of women – as the males of ancient Greece/Rome believed all “irrational” emotions came from the female of the species (I do not believe that – however that is the word in English for irrational beliefs/thoughts, so I use it reluctantly, and apply it to men and women without prejudice of the nature of irrational thoughts being female – how do I know this?! I’m a misogynistic ignorant man – aren’t I Elenor?!)

      1. Actualy she did answer your question, which was the hiding be hiding be hind trees, the crawling on the ground and the other thing you don’t do while interval training. These activities coulde be seen as alarming.

  83. How about all of us men stay indoors at all times, lest a female feel threatened by any innocent activity we may be engaged in. To you, the person engaging in this “game”, you are stalking a fellow runner, to everyone else at the park, you are just another person exercising, albeit one running fractally rather than at a steady pace. You will pass some people, some people will pass you. Someone will see you jump over the trashcan or hop up on a bench for a couple of strides and think “That person is an idiot” but no one is going to know that you are actively trying to catch up to anyone, and no one is going to feel threatened. Really, if you are going to mace or otherwise assault everybody who runs past you at a park, maybe you should save yourself and alot of other people alot of grief and buy a treadmill.

  84. Statistics and all aside…unless you’re a child on a playground, chasing someone and hiding behind a tree is really creepy. I know it’s meant to be in good fun, but this could scare a reasonable person.

  85. Haha! This thread is hilarious. I love this idea to recreate the movement patterns of the persistance hunter. The jogger runs at a steady pace, while you move like a persistence hunter. Who the hell’s going to arrest you for alternating sprinting and walking? Of course, if there are no other joggers around and you are obviously going out of your way to follow someone, that’s creepy. And if you come on a jogger and start crawling at their heels you deserve to get smacked. This artice is great advice for level-headed people. I think Mark thinks high enough of his readers to assume they understand that being creepy, annoying, offensive, or staulkerly is not cool. Don’t let him down.

  86. Wow, this thread is intense. Back to the real subject. Does anyone know of a podcast, etc. that would have this kind of training? I’d love to find something with music, but also tells me “sprint now”, “jog now”, “walk now”, etc. I realize I can just decide myself when to sprint, but I do better if someone is pushing me harder. Thanks

    1. Hey Mitch – as Marl points out the idea here is not to have set intervals (so no tape should do it), but rather (to quote Mark):

      “For this portion, you aren’t breaking up the hunt into jog/sprint/walk sections; you’re melding them all together on the fly”

      The idea is just go with the flow, no set times, intervals, just do what is necessary to keep your chosen jogger in sight and with enough in the tank to sprint to pass them at the end. I will assume you are male Mitch, so for F’s sake pick a male jogger – just be careful though, depending on where you live he may are may not want you to catch him!!! 😉

      1. Thanks, but my issue is I live in a rural area. Rarely are there any joggers, and if I got close to them or followed them it would definitely be wierd. So, I’m just looking for some type of podcast or something to help me out. Thanks

        1. Ah ok – understand – this may be a case of finding a buddy, sibling, etc who is a devotee to chronic cardio and explaining what you want to do.

          I reckon that would be interesting too, you could measure which one of you gets the most fitness/speed gains from the different approaches.

          The science would suggest that doing the fractal running approach (as long as there isn’t too much walking), would result in the biggest fitness/speed gains.

          You could both do a 5km time trial on a sports track initially and THEN train with the hunter/prey approach for a few weeks and see who has gained the most (that would keep your motivation up).

          Of course you’d have to allow for current fitness levels etc, if one of you is super fit and the other isn’t, the unfit person will always get the biggest gains…

          Just an idea – hope that helps – have FUN (ah fun – such a weird concept!?) 😉

        2. Mitch, i live in a rural area too. And I think in the true spirit of *play* just bring along an imaginary friend or 5. Borrow someone else’s dog (they will welcome the extra ‘walkies”). Borrow some kids. Chase your shadow. Insects. A leaf blowing in the wind. There’s also an old-school frisbee game: MTA Maximum Time Aloft. where you throw the frisbee up at an angle in the wind in such a way that you can run after it & catch it your self.
          (secret subliminal message: pllaayyyy)

        3. Hey Mitch, I also grew up in a rural area and I did pretty much what Peggy suggested. I also used to go sprinting on bright moonlit nights when I was a teenager and imagine that I was running from something or hunting. Cross country running is so much more fun because of the obstacles. It is amazing how much faster you can run when your mind is awake and you are not bored.

  87. As I live in a border state, would it be ok for me to go “stalk” or “chase” or “primal hunt” people I see crossing the border illegally?

    1. I say go for it. But in this case, grab them and send them back after the chase please.

    2. Plez don’t!!!! I don’t want to hear about you getting shot on the boarder buy drug runners.

  88. This is all well and good, but I could really use some tips for preparing the jogger post-hunt. If you’re making roast jogger’s feet, do you leave the running shoes on?

    Anybody with some good recipes?

  89. If I even suspected that someone was doing this behind my back, I would set a snare or pit trap for them and catch them as they tried to sprint past me. They would find themselves the recipient of a primal beatdown!

  90. That was an awesome video link for the persistence hunt. Wow! Fascinating.

  91. I had a sudden insight while thinking about this thread. Maybe the reason there has been this uptick in violence against women for the last 5000 years is that all the game was gone, from the Mediterranean at the beginning of this period, and from the rest of Europe shortly thereafter. Guys were designed by evolution to hunt, so if they can’t hunt deer, maybe they started hunting…women?

    1. I’ll comment that the increased anonymity in urban life combined with decreased community/family structure doesn’t aid in female safety (for the last 50 years).

  92. >[B]ut you fail to recognise the logic paradox in your
    > argument when you emphatically state that men and
    >women are fundamentally different, and so men cannot
    >EVER understand women.
    >Well IF your statement is true, then as a WOMAN, you
    > cannot EVER understand a man, and hence what he
    >thinks/feels, so any statements you make about us must be false!!!

    Non sequitor. I acknowledge that I cannot understand a man’s feelings: I can try, I can empathize with what I think their feelings are, but understand them? No. However, that in no way means statements I make about men — especially biological statements — must be false.

    Luke, I did not and do not mean to cause you such apparent distress. Clearly you and I will never see eye-to-eye on this matter. I’m not sure how it is that my messages are ‘sounding’ in your head (often a problem in online communication), but I have not attacked or insulted you. I disagree with you and I have been stating(or trying to state) my disagreement clearly, and trying to lead you/readers to understand my reasoning – and have not succeeded. I wish you well. (But I still recommend strongly that primal males NOT “hunt” some women jogger they do not know, go find a primal woman who wants to play!)

    Brandon: you’re not correct in your defense of pitbulls. Pitbulls are great dogs when properly socialized – but any unknown pitbull running towards me, I will assume to be *very* dangerous! (As should everyone!) (German shepherds do make the list, but I’m more likely to give a German Shepherd the benefit of the doubt; collies don’t make the list at all.)

    Just two refs, you can find hundreds by just looking:

    “Merritt Clifton, editor of Animal People, has conducted an unusually detailed study of dog bites from 1982 to the present. (Clifton, Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006: [link provided]) The Clifton study show the number of serious canine-inflicted injuries by breed. …
    According to the Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes are responsible for 74% of attacks that were included in the study,…”

    and

    “in the United States, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) released “Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998″ in 2000. This study found that 25 breeds of dogs were involved in 238 fatal dog bites from 1979-1998. In over half of the deaths where the dog’s breed was known, Pit Bulls and Rottweilers were responsible.
    More recent dog bite statistics continue to back up the CDC’s findings. In one study of United States dog bite fatalities from 2006-2008, Pitbulls were found responsible for nearly 60% of all deaths.”

    1. Eleanor – I’m curious. How are you an anti-feminist?

      Do tell.

  93. Most men are not a danger to me. Some are. Most women are not a danger to me, but some are.

    I can’t tell by appearance which is which (safe vs. dangerous). I must simply assume that a person is good/safe until, by this or her behavior, he or she demonstrates otherwise.

    It’s not paranoid nor anti-male to be aware of the behavior of others in a shared space with me especially men who tend to be stronger and faster than I. I must be smarter and react more quickly to those who are stronger and faster and who may pose a threat to me. It’s not in the forefront of my mind all the time—that would leave to overly anxious and paranoid behavior—unless someone does something out of the ordinary or what I perceive as threatening behavior. One simple must be “unconsciously aware” of what is going on around you.

    If a complete stranger–MALE or FEMALE–seemed to be following me on purpose, I would be very uncomfortable and would want to know why.

    And I’m sure that my brother would be just as uncomfortable were he to realize that a woman unknown to him was “stalking” him on his runs.

    However, if you can do this strategy without making it appear you are following me, then I have no problem. I just don’t think everyone is as stealthy as they like to think they are.

  94. The game is called Antelope. You get 4-5 people together in a park/wherever, one is the antelope, the rest are hunters. Antelope takes off 5 minutes earlier than the rest, who then follow suit. The hunters must track down the antelope, and the antelope can only run if it “feels threatened” (like a real antelope would). Once the antelope is tagged, switch it up. We play this at Virgnia Tech all the time. It’s just an adult version of Tag

    1. Where do you do this at Tech, Will? The sightlines on the Drillfield would seem to rule it out. Using the general campus might freak a few folks out due to unfortunate events in the recent past. Never been to Pandapas Pond, but hear it’s popular, do y’all go there?

    1. LOL. That reminds me of a time we had free ranging chickens that roosted in a tree. They hatched a bunch of chicks and we had to catch them. That was frickin’ hilarious!!

  95. Brava Merry, Well said… er..written!

    Evan asked: Elenor How are you an anti-feminist?

    This wanders pretty far afield from Mark’s blog, so I’ll give only a short answer.

    The alleged purpose of feminism (and I’m old enough to have been there, back through a good part of it) — was to give/protect women rights in the workplace and in the financial and political worlds — has been perverted (in my view) rather astonishingly into political correctness in hiring, in speech, in education, in pretty much every facet of life — most especially interpersonal relations. Feminism has turned the sexes into enemies to each other, into competitors, and has become an poisonous ideology, more interested in pushing its agenda than in the reality of the world.

    Because these “feminists” have cared more about numbers than skills, you can no longer rely on whatever fire fighter appears in your time of need to actually be able to carry you down a flight of stairs. (And I write that having been medical affairs director and crew chief for an ambulance corps and carried my share of stretchers.) Today, when women prove not to be capable of fulfilling the duties of a job( granted, few jobs), “feminists” rush in to require the duties be cut down to suit the women, not the job. The media pretend women are as capable as men, they show a woman punching and man and the man flying backwards — that’s not possible under the physics of this universe. Sheer physical mass wins out every time. The only reason Buffy could do it was her superhero powers. {eyeroll}

    Anyway, the merest gloss of a huge problem, but this isn’t the place… Thanks, Mark for your patience.

    1. Well said Elenor. I am also an anti-feminist. I disagree with your comment on women not being able to send men *flying backwards across the room* though. My husband is twice my size and weight and I can manage it. Not only that, it has everything to do with physics (and I major in physics). You just need to know how, along with the practice. Traditional Kung Fu is part of my Grok lifestyle and I love it 🙂

      Mark,
      our Kung Fu class has the occasional evenings where we try to find, run down, and capture our fellow class mates in the bush. We learn such skills as blending into the landscape so that others walk straight past us without seeing us, how to run fast over rough ground in the dark, how to be the hunter and how to escape the hunter. We have two teams where one team is sent out to hide and then the other team is sent out to hunt them down. Those being hunted have to try and make it back to the *safe* area without being caught. It is very exhilarating.

      1. A friend of mine took up martial arts for self defense. Ironically, the instructor assaulted her 🙂 Isn’t that happy?

        But well done for blaming every woman who doesn’t have the time, money, or inclination to take up martial arts. Classic victim blaming there.

        Hey, if I stole your wallet, would you mind if I claimed that really it was your fault for not having it in a locked money belt chained round your waist under your trousers?

        1. You need to calm down Rachel. I did no such thing. I cannot see how you can even get that from what I said.
          I took up Martial Arts because I HAVE been a victim of stalking, kidnapping, and rape on more than one occasion. I do not believe that I was to blame for any of these! Nor do I believe that ANY woman is to be blamed for being raped!
          My first comment was to Elenor explaining that it IS possible for a woman to throw a man across the room (nothing more); and my second comment was to Mark, commenting on a way that this game can be practiced with all participants willing and knowing what is happening. I will also add that this game is performed on a private property where there are no strange people to worry about. I am also obviously very fortunate that they people in my martial arts class are people that I know and trust (as you have pointed out, this may not always be the case).
          In answer to your question: If you stole my wallet I would call the police. I would not care whose fault you thought it was. In this I SUPPORT the comment of every other woman who has posted on here; that if they think a man is stalking them they will get the pepper spray. If a woman believes they are being stalked and are in danger, I BELIEVE that they should take whatever measures necessary to protect themselves.

    2. Elenor – very impressive, I mean that with 100% sincerity.

      It is quite a rarity to come across someone, woman or man, who can articulate what you just did.

  96. What the hell are you guys arguing about?

    I’m going to try this, and I’m going to pick a cute girl. When I’m done, I’ll run right up to her, introduce myself, and hit it off from there. Because it’s not a big deal unless you make it one. Remember that, gents.

    In fact, this seems like a great way to break the ice.

    1. This is what worries me about this. OF COURSE guys are going to pick a “cute girl” to chase, not some big burly muscular guy who might turn around and beat the crap out of them!

      And this cute girl will have been stalked before in parks, and she will be scared s*&^-less, and you’re expecting her to be flattered!

  97. Wow – Mark – You could use an editor – I had the exact thoughts as the first poster when I read your blog entry.

    In my relations with women and with society in general, I am decidedly Neolithic. I guess the Primal Blueprint should not extend to many behaviors.

    Love your blog – hang in there

  98. Why thank you very much Evan! {blush}

    I actually (study and) write this sort of thing rather frequently as I run a “dating, mating, marrying advice” list (on Yahoo) where I am teaching young women (well, young to me {eye roll} mostly in the their 30s and 40s, some younger, some older) (and a few men!) the graciousness and complementarity that has been driven out of our Western societies. (And also the science / biology that underlies it!)

    It goes (completely!) against the “party line” laid out 24/7 that men and women are interchangeable and do not differ except by upbringing. (You know … anti-feminism!) {wink}

    1. Very interesting!

      Would it be possible to provide a link to the site? You’ve definitely got me curious.

      1. Evan, I don’t know Mark’s policy on linking to outside sites. It’s a Yahoo Group called Pat Allen Dating, so you can search it out. (Dr. Pat Allen is the psychologist/teacher who is our inspiration.)
        (I’m sorry Mark, if this violates your terms.)

  99. AND, I forgot to add the winter version! (can’t help it, I live in a ski town) I usually ski alone, so I can hone my tele skills by picking some random other skier & try to keep up. I still have a long way to go on snowboarding, so this is a way for me to loosen up a bit & improve. A diversion while xc skiing…

  100. There is an easy answer to this. You can have printed T shirts that say what you are doing. Like I am using other runners to help with my traing if I’m bothering you I will stop. Or even better start a runners group where you switch of being prey and hunter. Start of with set distance a part. Hunters try to close the distance prey try to widen it or get to a sertan point with out being cought. Kind of like tag. Now you don’t have to worry about worring any body. 🙂

    1. Sorry missed WilL’s post. Didn’t no they had a game already. See what get for not ready all the post.

  101. I think common sense is key. Don’t hunt women if you’re a guy. Don’t try this at dusk. Do try it in busy parks with lots of people and mix it up so you are not following the same jogger all the time. If done right it will just look like interval training and no one is the wiser. It’s just a fun way to bring out the primal animal in us all.

  102. Mark,

    Great post! I love the idea of incorporating the concept of “play” into our weekly exercise strategy. It makes it more real and enjoyable!

    Thanks!!

  103. Heck, let’s be honest guys, we all still have a friend out there that insists on doing chronic cardio…just talk that Marathon Runner into being your gazelle.

  104. The one big problem that I see with this idea is that you’re “hunting” members of the deadliest, smartest, most effective species of predator the planet has ever seen.

    I could see this working with a partner. I would really not want to try it on strangers in a jurisdiction with concealed handgun permits…

  105. Wow – what a fascinating turn of conversation!

    I agree that doing this with an in-the-know partner would be the simplest method. When done right, however, the “prey” would be completely aware of your presence, and have no idea that your antics have anything to do with him/her.

    – Pick a park with hundreds of joggers and select your “prey”.
    – Walk along behind them until they’re almost out of sight, then sprint up to where you COULD catch them.
    – Step off to the side of the path, and do a set of pushups, or climb a tree, or practice your handstands for 30 seconds…just do something until they’re again almost out of sight, then sprint up to where you COULD catch them.
    – Select a new “victim”, walk along behind them until they’re almost out of sight, and repeat the cycle.

    They’ll see you, and may even note what you’re doing, but it won’t have anything to do with them.

    This could also be done with a pair of hunters, and the “sprint” would just appear to be a fun little race.

  106. {sigh} See, here’s yet another male suggesting it would be okay and that women wouldn’t be more sensitive than men to this sort of stalking…

    Several of you (men!) keep saying ‘if you do it right, she won’t notice.’ (I’m not disagreeing — *IF* you could be 100% assured of always, without fail, doing it right — and I really do not believe any human could!) But you(y’all) always seem to leave out leaves out the much more likely case of “when you do it wrong” — and THAT is inexcusably hostile to this woman you do not know, who did not sign up to be your “primal exercise equipment”!!

    Jonathan, I’m not picking on you, any more than I was picking on Luke, but there is a fundamental difference in how a woman would likely feel when she notices (and she’s WAY more likely to notice) a ‘stalker.’ Read Merry’s excellent answer above. Ask any of your female friends/relatives how they would feel.

    “They’ll see you, and may even note what you’re doing,” — differs, doesn’t it? — from ‘if you’re doing it right they won’t see you’?

    1. I think we might as well give up, Elenor. Men want the right to hunt women, stalk them, terrify them, etc. It’s part of their power in patriarchy. They’re not going to give this up without a fight. They’re going to pretend it’s all in good fun, and us trying to convince them otherwise is a waste of time.

      The only solution is to be prepared, and be faster. Just humiliate the poor guy by outrunning him every time, or let him have it with the pepper spray.

  107. Love the concept, Mark.

    How about actual hunting? That would be so proto-paleo.. you can get hunting licenses in most states for small game, year ’round in some cases.

    Get a compound bow & start practicin’. Or even an inexpensive “sling-bow.” Google slingbow & Dave Canturbury. So then your workout jibes very well with your meal plan…and you’re that much more prepared if SHTF.

    BTW, one more unneeded comment on Russell’s original incendiary post on the tired old phrase that all men are rapists:

    “When all you have left is a dry, dusty muff, the whole world looks like an unwelcome phallus.” -CR

  108. Come on – give it a rest. Why does everything have to be “politically correct”?
    We do this ALL THE TIME. It’s a version of the “Foxes and Hounds”, and is carried on world-wide under the name “Hash House Harriers”.
    We don’t normally “chase the fox”, rather follow it’s trail. Occasionally, we catch sight of the bugger as he/she/they move across the countryside (actual or through city streets)laying a trail and giving a great workout, plus engendering a feeling of primitive friendship.
    (We’re also a “Drinking Club with a Running Problem” (normally beer), and we’re a little raunchy (but so were our hunter-gatherer ancestors).
    It CAN BE done, safely, but like our fore-bearers, in a group.
    Grok On

  109. Shannon –

    I’m amazed at the length women go to to convince themselves that men think they are better than them 🙂

    Seriously though, I know few guys who ACTUALLY think men are “better” than women (whatever that means).. I actually don’t think I know any. If you are talking physical strength, then well, men ARE on the aggregate stronger. That really isn’t a big deal. Most girls I know would be outmatched by almost every guy I know in a fight, and THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. No one said being stronger makes you “better” than someone else. Who honestly believes THAT? If that were the case then Arnold should be everyone’s life coach! That would be very entertaining to say the least..

    1. I suspect that men are secretly afraid they are NOT better than women.

      In truth I was just objecting to the idea that one can assume that any given woman will be weaker physically than you are, just because she’s a woman. She may actually be faster, in better shape, and a more trained fighter.

      Just sayin’.

    2. Hi Vince, I guess it depends on where you are and the circle of friends you have or work with. Where I am, most of the women I know can outmatch a guy in a fight even though the men are twice their size and apparently ‘stronger’. But then I am surrounded by people who do martial arts. I think that for women it depends on who they are and what they want to do with their lives, and what they believe. If a woman chooses to believe that she is weaker than a male and does nothing to change that, then she will most likely be weaker. I have also seen the situation you describe. Many people are happy that way. And yes there is more to life that just beating someone in a fight. Where one is stronger physically, another may be stronger intellectually, no matter what sex you are.
      I agree with your first comment as well. I know women who think this way (my mother is one :)) and I also know men that think that women are better than them!
      People are all so different in so many ways. It makes the world an interesting place 🙂

  110. I don’t think that Grok had to deal with all of this political correctness and gender sensitivity – on both sides. I think some people on this blog need drink some fermented Grok-berries and just chill. 🙂

    1. Back in Grok’s day, according to some anthropologists, patriarchy was not as entrenched as it has been for the last 5,000 years.

      1. Wasn’t it? Was it? One can speculate more or less. The point is that they were much closer to the cusp between survival and death. Academic disagreements such as these were frivolous and unnecessary. Those with more power, speed, and stealth, did the hunting. If not, they starved and that tribe is no longer part of our modern gene pool.

    2. “I don’t think that Grok had to deal with all of this political correctness and gender sensitivity”

      Thanks for the laugh! Will you pass me the Grok-berry grog, please?

  111. Shannon, it just seems that way–the juxtaposition of two strange concepts–one, hunting (I meant stuff like deer, elk, game birds & squirrels), is a very masculine concept.
    Secondly, the rather humorous jab at Andrea Dworkin’s quote was meant as just that, satire. Maybe Dworkin was just joking when she said that all men are rapists, and the quote is in direct response to that.
    Me, I love women. I just don’t bow down to them like so many of them seem to think they want.
    Over many years, I have observed that what women think they way, what they say they want, and what they are biologically driven to want, are often three different things.
    I’m just sayin’..

    1. What part of your post was a humorous jab at Andrea Dworkin? Did she really say that all men are rapists?

      I searched for that quote on the web and found the following site:
      http://www.snopes.com/quotes/mackinnon.asp

      The last part of your post, I take it, alludes to the fact that evolution has selected traits in human females that make them “want” to get pregnant on one level. But sometimes it’s not the best time, and on another level, she doesn’t want to get pregnant. Is that what you mean? No argument there, and I’m not sure how this observation relates to the rest of the discussion.

  112. LukeOZ, You know that you are going to get in trouble for that comment. Way too honest – and potent – for most 21st Century post-Industrial readers. On the other hand, you are grappling with a question that has puzzled man from Grok’s time til now. It is an eternal question like the meaning of life or the infinity of the universe.

  113. JUST GO OUT TO EAT..
    AND BE THE HUNTER TRYING TO FIND WHATS ON THE MENU THAT FITS INTO THE PRIMAL DIET!!…LOLOL
    THATS PERSISTENCE HUNTING!!

  114. Great. Another clueless privileged dude who walks through life in a bubble making light of what is a constant danger in many women’s lives. And he’s shocked – SHOCKED! – that people didn’t just automatically know he didn’t mean it “that way”. Great. Note to men dumb enough to take this wanker’s advice – don’t be surprised when it’s the cops that respond.

  115. Just so we’re all clear, LukeOz – you pulled a bunch of sexist stereotypes out of your butt and close it up with the cowardly passive-aggressive “im just sayin'” which is ALWAYS shorthand for “I’m just totally full of shit”, and we’re supposed to be . . . what? Thankful? Grateful? Wake me when you’ve got something mildly relevant to reality to say.

    Shannon – you are totally right. This “hey it’s all in fun” bull is part and parcel for male gaslighting of female experience. Men are going to make themselves obsolete due to their terminal stupidity.

  116. This is not cute, it’s not harmless – it is specifically threatening. If you think we don’t notice it, you’re completely wrong. You are encouraging the dehumanization of other human beings (I mean, seriously “It”?!?), encouraging stalking, and then you’re confused why people are objecting? Try jogging a mile in a woman’s shoes.

    I have had to change the parks in which I go for jogs twice now, specifically because of behavior like this from guys. It’s now happened at the third place, and I’m out of local parks to jog in.

    Thank you, Mr. Douchenozzle, for encouraging the behavior which has robbed me of the right to jog outside.

  117. After more than 300 posts surely everyone has had a chance to say their bit. This was a light-hearted piece which has subsequently been followed up and clarified by Mark in another post.

    Please give us all a break and stop this global slanging match which is in danger of putting off would-be Grokkers. If you are that intent on continuing why not exchange email addresses and do it in private.

  118. This is a phenomenally stupid idea. If you don’t understand that this kind of behavior would scare the crap out of a woman, and some men, then you do not have a freakin’ clue.

    I’m a guy, and it’s pretty easy for us to blithely cruise through life not worrying about our safety. But I had a friend who was raped while walking in the park, in broad daylight.

    Some dumbass commenter said “ah, yes, the all men are rapists phenomenon.” No, you idiot, not all men. But some men. And if some guy is following you down the trail acting weird, it’s much more likely that he’s one of those men.

    General rule of thumb: don’t follow women around. Ever. Even if you know you mean no harm, you have to be a total moron not to know that you are probably scaring them. And there’s a word for somebody who scares people on purpose:

    Asshole.

  119. Primal play is fun and good. Involving strangers in your play without their consent is not. How hard is that to understand, folks?

    And when the unwilling partner is female, and the primal player is male, it’s more than unacceptable – it’s threatening, even if the man is only playing.

    Try this, if you doubt what the women on this thread have been telling you. Read this thread.

    Read it, honestly, and openly. Listen to what these women are saying.

    And ask yourself: Do I want to contribute to that, even unintentionally? Is my play so important that it’s no big deal if I contribute to women’s fear in the process?

    And, yeah, it’s not fair that men can’t innocently play at persistence hunting without taking these things into account. But, you know what? It’s not like it’s exactly fair that women have to live in a world like this either.

  120. What an incredibly horrible thing to do to someone. You comment about “40 feet away” shows how very clueless and lucky you are. That kind of behaviour would drive a lot of people to tears.

    Maybe you aren’t a “real” stalker or a rapist, but how the hell are we supposed to know that. Being stalked by a “fake” stalker who’s “just doing it for laughs” will have the same effect on us.

    We don’t think all men are evil rapists! BUT WE CAN’T TELL THE DIFFERENCE. And lets face it, if a guy exhibits stalking behaviour like you, then what exactly are we going to assume?

    Sorry to spoil your fun. It makes my heart bleed for you. Truely. I’d pass you a tissue, but unfortunately I’ve already given all my tissues away to the 1 in 4 women who experience sexual assaults! What a bunch of whingers they are, eh?

  121. I know this conversation is old by now, but I just came upon it and feel compelled to say to Brandon:

    Whether or not to report a rape is not as simple as it might seem on Law & Order SVU, where you know you’ll have a team of tireless [actors] doing everything under the sun to keep you safe and ‘catch the perp’.

    In real life, depending on one’s ethnicity/social class/profession/location, going to the police may only get you slapped with indifference and victim blaming. Or,

    depending on who your attacker is, it could put you and your whole family in a world of danger. Just getting one guy locked up isn’t gonna stop him from getting his homies to take revenge. And if he wasn’t a violent rapist before, he certainly might be after a few years in prison.

    So please, reconsider telling a woman she’s made a mistake by not reporting it. The real mistake is that he chose to rape her in the first place.

    BTW, I think this sounds like a fun game, but definitely choose your ‘targets’ carefully and consider other peoples’ feelings. It’s funny, I used to actually do something similar in high school on the cross country team. Choose a faster runner and make it my goal to outrun her, worked every time!

  122. Haha, I’m a white lady living in Africa – often feared (or taken as a witch) for the mere shade of my skin. Now, if I started to hunt the poor locals during my morning runs in the beach, what would the outcome be..? I’ll let you know after having tried it out tomorrow!

  123. I suggest a modification that will lead to fewer assault or harrassment charges: chase animals. My town has a bumper crop of jackrabbits and they love hanging around parks. They are also pretty used to people because of this and won’t bolt until you’re within 10 feet. Once you get that close they’ll run just ahead of you in brief spurts and pause when you start to fall behind.

  124. I’ve never been so disappointed in some of the comments on a forum, in a group I had come to like and respect. I’m profoundly horrified. Let me quote Gavin de Becker, who was mentioned earlier:

    “Whether or not men can relate to it or believe it or accept it, that is the way it [violence against women] is. Women, particularly in big cities, live with a constant wariness. Their lives are literally on the line in ways men just don’t experience. Ask some man you know, “When is the last time you were afraid that another person would harm you?” Many men cannot recall an incident within years. Ask a woman the same question and most will give you a recent example or say “Last night,” or “Today.”

    “Still women’s concerns about safety are frequently the subject of critical comments from the men in their lives. I have a message for women who feel forced to defend their safety concerns: tell Mister I-Know-Everything that he has nothing to contribute to the topic of your personal security. Tell him that your survival instinct is a gift from nature that knows a lot more about your safety than he does. And tell him that nature does not require his approval.”

    And I say: if you as a man cannot understand the threat of harm women live under from some men, who do not exactly go around wearing signs announcing “I am a rapist,” to the point that you are denying these threats to women’s safety even exist, **you are part of the problem.**

  125. And I will follow that up with THIS Gavin de Becker quote:

    “It is understandable that the perspectives of men and women on safety are so different–men and women live in different worlds…at core, men are afraid women will laugh at them, while at core, women are afraid men will kill them.”
    — Gavin de Becker (The Gift of Fear: Survival Signals That Protect Us from Violence)

    Now, having read most of this thread, this means that all men want to kill all women all of the time.

    Yes, I understand that I am a man. Yes I understand that all women therefor are afraid that I will kill them. Yes I know that the majority of violence is perpetrated by….and yes I know that the majority of rapists are….and yes I know that most of the world’s ills are caused by…and yes I know that I personally am a MAN.

    All men may want to kill all women all the time but -I- have never wanted to kill a woman, or rape a woman, or hurt a woman. And I think some of the men who have never though of harming a woman don’t want to be lumped in with those who would. I think THAT is a big part of this.

    But I do have this to say about Mark’s suggestion:

    This sounds like a fun time to be had. You are supposed to be the hunter, the predator. So HUNT! Pick your prey – and DON’T GET CAUGHT. I -am- a predator. And I will hunt who I will. Man, woman or child.

    Women will be harder to hunt. They already fear that a man might kill them, so they will be wary of me, a man, who might hunt them. Women are harder to hunt.

    Men are easier to hunt. They hum through life never having to worry about being the victim. So be it.

    Kids are curious but can be a challenge.

    But the rules are “DON’T GET CAUGHT!” If you get caught, noticed, or otherwise spotted, the game is up.

    OH…a quick rule bender. ‘Don’t get caught’ refers to the rest of the herd too! DON’T GET CAUGHT.

    If you are following that rule, then the hunt gets WAY harder. Try being invisible. If another member of the herd you are hunting looks at you–FREEZE. Don’t spook the herd!

    I am a predator. Get out there and hunt! I am a man, a hunter!

    Women, think what you want of men. I will never relate, I am a man. Protect yourselves. Fear what you will. You are a woman and entitled to think however you would like. I would like it said that there might be men out there who don’t want to hurt you. But I cannot convince you of this.

    Men–be smart. Outwit your prey! Don’t get caught! Have fun! Live the way you are going to live. Do what you are going to do!

    And ultimately remember: “Don’t be that guy…be a MAN!” I speak to the male condition because I am one. I have to let women do as they will because I am not one.

    I would only ask this: Women, please do not laugh…it is my worst fear.

    Have fun people. It is SO much better than the alternative….

    Scott ‘Big Daddy T’ Odirom

  126. I thought it would be fun persistent hunting my brother at the park a few years ago. However, I thought it would be more interesting to do so in a Ninja suit… NOT A GOOD IDEA.

  127. How about everyone just stops with the sexist comments.
    This is meant to be fun.
    Dont pick a lone runner.
    Dont pick a woman if youre worried shell think youre a rapist.
    Even better yet. How about men pick men, and women pick women.
    Dont do it at night. Or early in the morning.
    And if you think it might still worry someone, do it with friends.
    You dont just randomly do this to someone.
    If youre doing it to a stranger, make sure they wont whip out a gun and shoot you or pepper spray you. Maybe even go up to them and ask their permission.
    It. Is Meant. To. Be. Fun.
    Stop making it into a gender inequality argument. Yes some men rape women. But not all. Yes some, if not most, women would be worried if they caught you doing this. So dont do it to them then. Or even modify it so you arent crawling around. Just jog. Dont get noticably close. Dont act suspicous. Just see if you can follow them along a popular jogging trail for a bit without them turning and looking at you.
    If i saw someone doing this to me i would be a tad worried (and im a guy), but use common sense. Youre in a puplic place, with heaps of people with you. If you arent and you see this, be worried. If theres heaps of people around, keep an eye out but dont call the cops.
    You would also be able to see if theyre going to rape you when you see them. If they laugh and mutter damn, then youre probably safe. If they stare at you murderously and reach into their pocket for something, f*cking run you heart out.
    This is just a bit of fun, stop ruining it with your gender inequality arguments. Yes i know most women have it worse than most dudes.
    But please dont attribute rapist or murderer to men who are obviously not, or anyone who doesnt give you good reason. Turning and seeing someone running behind you in a public running area where there are people running all around you isnt reason to be scared. Be scared if youre along and theyre following you.

  128. I read recently that there is evidence to suggest humans evolved to be great predators as much for our endurance as for our tool making ability.

    The ability to sweat + breathe heavily (respiration?) allowed us to cool our bodies efficiently so that we could continue chasing prey animals over long distances. I believe it was evidence reported in a TEDx talk. Super interesting if so. Thanks for sharing this (even if I’m a bit late to the party!)