What About a Zero Carb Diet?
Zero carb is getting (relatively) popular. A handful of valued MDA forum members eat little-to-no-carb, and several others probably imagine it’s ideal even if they don’t personally follow it. I wanted to address this because there seems to be some confusion as to how a zero carb eating plan relates to the Primal Blueprint eating plan. To begin with: I think zero carb can be a viable option for some, but highly impractical for most. If one had access to and ate different animals, all range fed and without pollutants, and if one ate all offal (and stomach contents) it’s possible to approach zero carb… but again highly impractical. If you really, really love meat and fat and offal, and get genuine enjoyment from eating nothing but meat and fat and offal, have at it. On the other hand, if you are looking for a wider variety – and gustatory enjoyment – of the foods you eat, zero carb may be unenjoyable, impractical, unnecessary, and at worst (if not done just right) downright dangerous.
Let’s take a look at just a few of the reasons why vegetables are a part of The Primal Blueprint:
First, it’s highly unlikely that early man would have consciously avoided edible, available vegetation. We already know that current hunter-gatherers take advantage of anything edible within reach – plant or animal. We are adaptive capitalists, ready and willing to exploit any situation to our advantage. Humans are survivors and they’ll eat whatever is available. If you subscribe to the “out of Africa” model of human evolution – as do most anthropologists – the bulk of our evolution took place in the lush, fertile Africa grasslands where both game and vegetation were plentiful. Grok wasn’t throwing together multicolored salads every day at noon, but the precedent for plant consumption is there. The opportunity certainly was.
People have ranged far and wide across the globe, living in a variety of environments and ecosystems, each with different sources of food. Looking at the fossil records, it’s difficult to pinpoint the exact Paleolithic diet (whatever that means), seeing as how vegetable matter degrades and bone endures. But it’s safe to say that meat and fat have always been preferred by man, and our ancestors’ adoption of a meat and fat-heavy diet necessitated and prompted (in the cycle of positive feedback between culture and physiology that so often describes evolution) the smaller guts and bigger brains we enjoy today. Many like to take this point combined with examples of people surviving on animals alone as proof that vegetables should be restricted or avoided entirely. As I see it, when a carnivorous-predominant group does arise, like the Inuit, it is only out of necessity. They are an exception to the rule. The Inuit survived in a barren, arid environment by eating whatever was available: marine animals, fat, blubber, organs, and fish. It wasn’t by choice. They weren’t turning their noses up at bushels of berries and teeming fields of wild cabbage; the opportunity simply wasn’t there. In every other case, humans will eat both plants and animals if they are given the chance, and plant matter is mostly available all over the world, depending on the season.
The Inuit do, though, show us that an-all meat, zero carb diet has the potential to be healthy. It might even be desirable for certain people if (here comes the tricky part), as I said, they use organic range-fed whole animals – muscle meat, fat, organs, offal, stomach contents – to get the whole spectrum of fat-soluble nutrients and vitamins. All those thriving near-carnivorous traditional groups the zero carb crowd likes to throw around weren’t buying tubes of 80/20 Walmart beef and nothing else; they were eating spoiled organs, consuming stomach contents, fermenting full-fat dairy, drinking fish liver shooters, gnawing on still-beating bison heart, and feasting on a “guts and grease” diet. Stefansson’s oft-cited all-meat diet experiment wasn’t just muscle and fat; it was fried liver and brains, fish, and a whole host of animal products. As for the ground beef and water diets that seem popular in some ZC circles? You’re fooling yourself if you think that’s an optimum diet for health and longevity, and I’m not sure if some favorable lab numbers garnered after six months of eating nothing but burger mean much at all. Better than the standard American diet of chips, sodas, cookies, and rancid fats on top of the same burger meat? Maybe. Optimum? Not a chance. Let’s see what happens in thirty years. Staunch ZCer Danny Roddy’s strangely scurvy-esque symptoms following a purely pemmican diet should give you pause.
That sort of fear of macronutrients is silly and potentially dangerous. Avoiding grass-fed beef liver because it contains a few grams of carbohydrates is crazy (or did you conveniently forget that crucial aspect of the Inuit and Plains Native diets – organ meats?). Eschewing pastured eggs and all their yolky goodness because of a fraction of a gram of carbohydrates? Madness. Now, avoiding all carbs because you feel better without them? I can get behind that. Trying to maximize fat loss by going zero carb for short periods of time? Worth trying. Trying to prove your glucose-freebasing marathoner friends wrong by beating them on a ultra-low carb diet? I love a good self-experiment; do it! A complete zero carb diet is possible to get right, albeit a bit impractical and unwieldy for most people (if you think sourcing grass-fed beef is tough, trying finding a steady supply of pastured thyroid glands, kidneys, livers, brains, tripe, and heart!), but so is an omnivorous one. Which would you prefer? Which would enhance your quality of life? As long as you’re avoiding grains, legumes, sugar, and industrial vegetable oils, these are the important questions to dwell on.
But what of vegetables? Is there anything inherent to be feared? Most plants are, at the worst, harmless. Others, like the seeds of wheat and barley and legumes, really don’t want to be eaten and can cause problems. These guys employ various anti-nutrients, chemical defenses like lectins and gluten to prevent and dissuade consumption. Certain animal and insect species have developed tolerances, but we generally have not. It is necessary for proper health that we humans “deprive” ourselves of these foods. I get that. And people sensitive to nightshades should avoid them, just as the lactose intolerant should probably avoid even raw dairy, and people with a severe shellfish allergy should avoid shrimp. This is basic stuff. But to posit that humans are somehow wholly intolerant of all vegetables and fruits is nonsense. Leafy greens like spinach and kale, carrots, asparagus, broccoli, squash, even the occasional sweet potato – some people would have you believe these are poison. Unnecessary? Perhaps. Dangerous? No, and especially when eaten with plenty of fat, vegetables are excellent vehicles for delivering beneficial nutrients, vitamins, and minerals to the people consuming them (read a few of our Smart Fuel posts on vegetables for more info on this point). Leafy greens, for example, are great sources of magnesium and calcium. Sardines and mackerel are good sources, too, but do they negate the utility (or deliciousness) of a plate of kale, sauteed in garlic butter and topped with lemon juice? This, to me, isn’t a point not to be taken lightly.
There’s more to this picture. As long as you’re going to be cooking your meat there are good reasons to eat your steak with a side of veggies. A researcher named Joseph Kanner has spent a career looking at how the potential nastiness of cooked meats – oxidized fats, for instance – are neutralized in the “bioreactor” of the stomach with the inclusion of antioxidants from vegetables, red wine, and tea. Does this mean vegetables are required for safe consumption of cooked meat? Probably not, but unless you’re eating all your meat and offal raw, ultra-slow-cooked, or super rare, you may want to include a small salad, a bit of broccoli, or a glass of wine with that ribeye. Plant-based antioxidants (flavonoids, carotenoids, and other phytonutrients) in general provide a good line of defense against stress, inflammation, and the ravages of aging in the context of the former two conditions. A perfect zero carber who closely watches meat sources, gets plenty of sleep, good Primal exercise, and leads a low-stress existence is probably fine without piles of vegetables, but the average person who stumbles upon the PB and needs to drop a few dozen pounds, kick a few prescription meds, and maintain on inconsistent sleep? A Big Ass Salad (BAS) for lunch and some berries for breakfast (along with near carnivorous eating otherwise) will go a long way toward healing them – and they’d definitely be a huge improvement over what they were previously eating.
And this gets me to my final main point on the importance of plants. The Primal Blueprint eating plan supports vegetation in large part because it’s meant to be a sustainable regimen – for life. Our supportive stance on vegetation is meant to include, rather than preclude. I’m trying to positively modify as many individual eating habits as I can in my short time on this planet. My work is my work, but I’m passionate about it, and I don’t want to be a starving diet guru with an incredibly loyal but miniscule cadre of die-hard followers. I want to affect people on a huge scale. I refuse to water my message down (“drink diet sodas and avoid saturated fat”), but if including lots of vegetables attracts more people without detracting from the nutritional merits of the lifestyle, I’m going to keep doing it. I’m talking about the people who need our help the most. They are our parents, our friends, our neighbors, and they stand to gain the most from adopting a Primal eating plan. Excluding vegetables right off the bat would only turn people away and relegate us to “fad diet” status immediately. It’s already an uphill battle, folks, and we don’t need any more roadblocks. Please, though, don’t read this as some sort of vague admission that vegetables aren’t a critical part of a healthy eating plan. I only mean to note this added importance that veggies bring to the PB.
Before I wrap this up, let me speak specifically to how this relates to the official Primal Blueprint Food Pyramid – which is founded on vegetables, and to a lesser extent, fruits. Vegetation gets prime seating at the base as it makes up the bulk of an average PB meal, with meat and other animal products following up immediately after. When you take a look at the average Primal eater’s caloric daily breakdown though, fat and meat take the lion’s share. And when we publish a PB recipe, more often than not it features animal flesh proudly and prominently. Vegetation represents the foundation of the pyramid graphic but not the bulk of the caloric reality, which might seem designed to mislead.
It’s not, though. For one thing, the sheer volume of raw vegetation is immense. Three cups of raw spinach quickly become less than a cup’s worth when exposed to butter and a heated surface. A few cups of buttered broccoli might displace enough three-dimensional space to fill a plate, but it won’t fill you up; the ten ounces of steak to the left will take care of that. In that sense, vegetation can and often does form the foundation of a Primal eating strategy, calories notwithstanding, but it’s not a ton of calories derived from plants. That would take kilos of greens and pounds of carrots, and we aren’t lowland gorillas with immense fermentation chambers in our protruding guts. To really get a sense of how many or how few vegetables and fruits the PB prescribes, though, look to the Carbohydrate Curve: it’s totally open-ended. At the height, it’s 150 g/day of carbs, from vegetables and fruits and natural starches. Athletes can even extend that and go a bit higher, depending on activity level and glycogen needs. It goes as low as zero carb, which I characterize as an “excellent catalyst for rapid weight loss.” You’ll also note that while I don’t recommend it for prolonged periods, it’s not because I fear ketosis, or that excluding plant foods will kill you; it’s because I can’t support the “unnecessary deprivation of plant foods.”
In the end, the PB comes down to maximizing quality of life. I want to enjoy every bite of every meal. I want to stay out of the rest home, avoid hospital stays, and stay active into my twilight years. Hell, I want my twilight years to be inundated with beams of radiant light. I don’t want my life to be a heavily regimented procession of pills and white coats. I want to have my sensible vices, like wine or dark chocolate. I want to eat vegetables because I enjoy them – not because I’m under the assumption that they’re magic. I have the means and the wherewithal to eat a complete, totally ideal carnivorous diet, but I prefer variety. I like my steak and my eggs (a gram of carbs doesn’t scare me) and my asparagus.
Let me know what you think PBers, ZCers and everyone else. Thank for reading!
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Posted By: Mark Sisson
And Vicky, of course that should really be:
5-5.5 days per week low carb
2-1.5 days per week higher carb
Gee. I need an editor just to post a comment or something.
Thank you Christoph! I never thought about the benefits of going in and out of ketosis.. very helpful!
A lot of what constitutes healthy can depend also on what an individuals insulin response is like.
Fructose shoots my blood glucose high, I need to avoid fruit except on the rarest of occasions. Some may get cravings for sugar and grains from eating even vegggies. Each of us has to implement our own plans based on our individual reactions, which are as varied as our dna.
The problems come when those of us who need a more rigid plan try to impose those unique boundaries on others, when fruit, or more veggies, or even dairy may be very doable for many. Broad minded approaches are really needed when talking about diet and restrictions. Unforunately, too many times zero carbers dump on primal eaters, or your average low carber dumps on those who like an Adkins bar from time to time. Silly really. GReat post Mark!
theres a lot more to the in and out of ketosis plan you commented on. first of all, it is only for extreme body builders or else you will pile on the weight. second, your higher carb days have to be very low in fat, practically nonexistent. just upping your carbs 2 days a week and staying the same all around and dropping them 5 days a week a a perfect recipe for weight gain
Hi-
I’m new here, this is my first post. I discovered this blog by accident and bought the book, then bought a copy for a friend. I’m halfway through but I’ve also read a lot on the site. I’ve only been lurking here so far. So, hi everyone.
I did go check out the forum- so imagine me, a new visitor, I don’t know any of you. I’m looking at stuff and it becomes apparant to me that yes, there is a theme in the forum to see who is willing to “go carnivore”, and even starve every second day to simulate a scarce, difficult winter.
Well, this raised an eyebrow. At first I thought it was an encouraged theme until Mark just made this post, which I’m thankful for because he said a lot of things I had been thinking as I read that stuff. I was starting to wonder if I got the wrong idea about the hunter/gatherer diet, but no, I had not. It just seems that there are folks here that are on a completely different diet than the one Mark describes.
I remember I saw something once- there was a body builder who was a woman, in great shape- every muscle bulging out of her body. No steroids or anything, just lean and built. Well, in her late 30′s, she broke a bone. She went to get treated. There was something not quite right and after testing, they discovered her bones were brittle and she already had osteoperosis. She was nutritionally deprived. Oh, she had plenty of protein, but not much else. No thank you.
Anyway, nice to meet you all.
Not surprising since she wasn’t following a “zero carb” or an all meat diet.
This totally makes sense to me.
Mark, I am constantly stunned by the quality of your articles. I just can’t stop coming back here. Your website is like my bible. LOL
About the scurvy issue – I read somewhere that scurvy was found to be caused not by the lack of vegetables and fruits but by the introduction of grains with a meat/fat only diet. Apparently the digestion of grains required more vitamin C and left people deficient because there wasn’t adequate Vit C in the rest of their diet (ie in meat/fat). Meat does contain adequate vit C, but not enough for the digestion of grains supposedly. I’m not sure where I read this though, so don’t quote me!
great article. thanks!
i think most modern carnivores (esp. in USA) are not “true carnivores” like some native tribes.
regards,
I have tried an all meat diet a few times and became sick about 3-4 weeks in each time. You need to veggies man!
No PHK, YOU might need to eat veggies, but that doesn’t mean everyone else does. And you state you ate an ‘all meat diet’ – this article explains why eating muscle meat only can be problematic. Nothing to do with some perceived ‘requirement’ of veggies.
Hi, Girl Gone Primal,
i believe you’re addressing to nathan, not me.
(i agree with you that homosapien don’t need veggies to survive provided that we ate all parts of animals. which may not be a viable option for some tho. also such diet becomes boring.)
regards,
Ooops, looked up too far looking for the name.
But your claim that ‘such a diet becomes boring’ is just as subjective as Mathan’s argument – don’t knock it til you’ve tried it, and the perception of ‘boringness’ is often a sign that one has not defeated their sugar cravings. Meat is delicious, varied, and can be prepared in hundreds of ways. Preparing the same meal the same way every day is bound to become monotonous, no matter the food itself. Plus, if you are released from the social bounds of food (I’m not there yet) and consider food as tasty fuel, then it’s a non-issue anyway.
“boring” is only my opinion. & i need some colors on my food. vegetables provide colors & variation.
i don’t have problem eating organ meats or other exotic cuts. but i don’t cook it, because:
(1) i don’t know how (due to lack of practice)
(2) i cook for 2. those exotic cuts gross him out — my husband is way too civilized. so it is very hard to cook for 1 that way. (methink most Americans are wuss in this regard.)
(3) it is hard to find quality organ meats or even exotic cuts that most Americans do not eat (e.g., UNCURED belly pork with SKIN).
regards,
1) I’ve been learning how to cook with offal, though I’ve been limited by my own beau’s ‘civilisation’.
I’ve made some tasty chicken liver pate, but beyond that I haven’t come up with anything exciting. I have ready access to grass-fed lambs fry, which I should really get into. Until then, I just make sure to keep my intake of eggs up, not that they compeltely fill the nutrition void. They do add colour though, although I find fish cooked in their skin to be gorgeously colourful, and I love to use turmeric to add zing to chicken. But there’s nothing lovelier than the colour of perfectly cooked steak and lamb chops. 
Hi, Girl Gone Primal,
yes, skin tastes good, especially saba shoyaki.
the most “exotic” & “primal” thing i cook is roast marrow bones, or meat with skin or bones on. (pretty civilised, sigh.)
regards,
On September 16, I will have been Zero Carb for 18 months. I guess I’m suffering for being so “boring”. Ha, actually, I enjoy eating just protein and fat. I am very active–I lift weights 3-4 times a week and do cardio and bodyweight excercises. I am 5’4″, 104 lbs. with 14% bodyfat. I have no problem with energy for lifting and am never hungry during the day, so I eat a large meat at night and sometimes a small meal before lifting (do fasted cardio). Zero Carb works for a lot of us and I eat a lot of calories–more than ever–to maintain my weight. I couldn’t ask for a better lifestyle and I don’t feel the need to have carb refeeds or introduce fruit, veggies or starches. And yes, I’m female and I don’t have cravings.
Hey Katelyn,
I have been doing zero carb (well besides the minimal ones in eggs so I guess very low carb) for about a month now and I love it! I was just curious as to what your typical evening meal would be?
Thanks for posting; it gives me the inspiration to continue this way of eating!
ISNT WONDERFUL TO ALL BE DOING IT OUR WAY AND BEING ABLE TO HEAR ABOUT ALL THE WAYS …WE ARE NEVER ALONE HERE.
MODERATION-EXPERIMENTATION-IMMERSION.
SEASONAL AND CANNED.
FROM THE HIGH END GROCERY STORE TO YOUR LOCAL DISCOUNT WAREHOUSE…
IF YOU SEEK…YOU WILL FIND A PATH.
JUST FOLLOW THAT PATH.
GROK ON- ALL OF US!! AND HO-HO-HO
Thank you for being the anti-guru.
I think we’re about to find that the healthiest diet does not involve meat.
Here’re a couple of links.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/austere-lives-of-mount-athos-monks-shown-to-cut-cancer-risk-763794.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article3007206.ece
The essential problem with meat, which isn’t a problem for the Athos diet
- is that we could conceivably feed the world on the Athos diet.
Not terribly sure that we’d want to create the sort of battery farming facilities to churn out the quantities of meat which’d be required to feed 10 billion people.
We really do need to consider our fellow man and animals, when choosing our diet.
Not a sentimental viewpoint – though it can be, if you like.
~btw~
If I might just add:
eg
http://news.wustl.edu/news/Pages/8388.aspx
“The research, published in the December issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, shows that lean people on a long-term, ***low-protein***, low-calorie diet or participating in regular endurance exercise training have lower levels of plasma growth factors and certain hormones linked to cancer risk.”
“”However, people on a low-protein, low-calorie diet had considerably lower levels of a particular plasma growth factor called IGF-1 than equally lean endurance runners … …”
I cannot stress how important the Insulin/IGF-1 axis is in human health.
Elevating human protein levels isn’t the path to health.
Speaking as food scientist I have to totally disagree with most of this article.
Plant antioxidants are there to protect plant tissues from oxidation. There is no solid evidence that plant antioxidants protect humans from oxidative stress. In fact they may actually cause damage in high doses.
Our bodies have highly sophisticated endogenous antioxidant systems and have absolutely no need for plant based antioxidants (except vitamin C).
Natural grasslands are basically monocultures almost totally devoid of any edible plants. The inhabitants of grasslands such as Mongols, Australian Aborigines and Native American always relied almost entirely on meat as a food source.
Almost all plants contain substances that are toxic to humans. Only 200 or so plants species are widely cultivated. These plants have almost all of the toxins removed by centuries of selective breeding.
Compared with animal foods plants are extremely poor sources of most vitamins and minerals. Plants are really only useful as sources of magnesium, potassium and vitamin C.
All essential vitamins and mineral can be easily obtained at very low cost by supplements.
You only need to eat about 100g of liver a week as a part of a carnivorous diet to get adequate amounts of every multivitamin and mineral (except vitamin C).
There is little difference in the fatty acid profiles of grass fed and grain feed beef.
The scientific literature shows no convincing evidence that organic foods offer any health benefits.
Could you post any links to studies that back up the claim that there is no evidence that plant antioxidants protect humans from oxidative stress.
Many thanks.
I think what blogblog is saying here is, you should eat meat, but no plants because they’re poison. Instead take a cheap multivitamin made in a lab to cover your bases. Mongols, Australian Aborigines and Native Americans had invisible mobile multivitamin labs (a lot like the Iraqis did for their weapons of mass destruction) an placed no value in plant foods.
A couple groups of people on planet earth ate mostly meat. Plants made little difference in their health. As an example of the deep flaws in this argument, Chris Masterjohn recently put this B.S. down to rest in one of his recent articles on the Masai (part II I believe).
Phew! I’m sure glad the “plants are worthless” debate has finally been settled here by a bonafide “food scientist!” We can all go home now.
@Dave, I’m betting blogblog along with practicing ZC/VLC, also does ZE (zero exercise) otherwise he/she might understand the power of plant antioxidants.
I totally agree with you!
I learned in school (80′s) that as soon as a plant takes damage (chewing, being cut open) the nutrients are exposed to Oxygen and oxidize. That is how oxidation was explained to me, that is why apples turn brown.
What about a zero carb diet? Meat, eggs, hard cheese, and butter only for the last 5 months. BP dropped, lost 25 lbs, skin cleared up (roatia for last few years), teeth got whiter, six pack and muscle tone are now pronounced, un-ending energy, I get looks from girls in their 20′s again (me 44), and people tell me I look so much better.
Will I stay on this eating regimine long term? Time will tell but right now I am leaning torward it.
I have tried LC and it does not work for me. Cravings always bring me back to the starches. Eating just meat, eggs, butter, and cheese gives me no cravings what so ever. I eat half a cup of blue berries and next thing I know I have a plate of nachos in my lap.
I have sat in multiple “pizza lunch meeting” watching my co-workers devouring one of my biggest weaknesses of all…..and I have no desire to partake of even a slice. The very thought just makes me sick.
Some people can handle the carbs, some can’t. Humans have thrived on nothing but meat and have also thrived on meat along with fruits and vegies. Starches and grains however….I believe everyone here agrees is the enemy.
I agree that humans evolved to eat SOME plant matter.
BUT, I have been primal for 1.5 years now and I was still miserable as far my digestion went.
I’ve been super bloated my entire life!!! Even as a child I was bloated out the yin yang, in every picture I look like some starving African kid with a HUGE belly and boney arms and legs.
I’ve ditched grains, beans (never ate them anyways), nuts, processed sugars and vegetable oils and stool became somewhat better but not perfect.
I just recently read K. Monastyrsky’s Book Fiber Menace and decided to ditch ALL vegetables and guess what!? For the very first time in my entire life my belly isn’t bloated. I’m not as lean as I’d like to be (because of my raw milk consumption) BUT my midsection is now flat. NO MORE indigestible fibers fermenting for 5 days in my gut producing gasses non-stop and making me feel uncomfortable and tired. Not to mention creating baseball size clumps of fecal matter.
I do believe humans do a LOT better healthwise on a high animal diet (including everything the animal has to offer) rather than a high plant diet.
We are the top preditor on land, why would we graze on plants? It is literally impossible to be on a 0 carb diet even eating animals.
Eggs, liver (2 of the most nutritious foods) have carbs.
The ones that try and eliminate ALL foods with carbs (from animal source)are the ones that get into trouble healthwise.
The only reason someone should go 0 carbs is to temporarily induce ketosis to encourage weight loss. However, after a few weeks it should be stopped.
trying to do a full egg plan i really can’t stand meat so i’m trying to embark on to a pure egg diet few herbs but mainly just eggs and few diet soda lemon lime no salt. I know eggs have carbs but at moment only meat item i can tolerate. I was wondering would that also be sortof zero carb diet i know its mention eggs were eating too.
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can u really eat as much you like on zero carb of eggs fat meat plan?
Yes, if you like feeling like poop, but I guess that’s a relative term.
a new post for an older entry, but this article doesn’t account for the possibility of a high fat (80-90%) diet, subsisting on coconut, macadamia nuts, some avocados, cheese, and some meet. sort of like the keckwick diet, but without the 1000 calorie restriction.