Violence: An Introduction to a Primal Instinct
For a guy that people don’t usually reference when talking about the ancestral health community, Tucker Max gave a fantastic talk on the importance of violence a couple weeks ago at the symposium. It was on the importance of violence in human evolution, and it centered on what he’d learned about himself since joining a mixed martial arts (MMA) gym several years back. His slides are now available, so I’d recommend taking a quick glance at them. The real meat was in the talk itself, though. Check out the video (and stick around for Seth’s talk, too). Hat tip to Tucker for stoking my thoughts on this topic.
We have a weird relationship with violence, especially in the 21st century. For the most part, we live in a time of unprecedented peace. Although with civilization and government come new challenges to personal freedom, most of us aren’t in immediate danger of being robbed, raped, assaulted, murdered, or dragged into war. Physical violence is easily avoided, and yet we are drawn to it. It fascinates us even as it horrifies us. We condemn those who engage in it while sneaking peeks and wondering what it would be like to fight.
But here’s where we run into trouble: violence is bad, right? Torture, rape, murder, serial killers, genocide, war… these are not nice things, and they’re all examples of violence. Anyone and (mostly) everyone will agree that these are absolute negatives. Laws against murder are universal (if selectively applied), and any reasonable culture considers rape to be a monumental crime. War is sometimes necessary, but it’s not a pleasant endeavor for anyone, neither victor nor loser. “War is hell,” remember. Torture is craven (and from what I’ve read, ineffective) and cruel, while genocide is the ultimate evil (even if some people somewhere support it).
If violence is bad, why are we drawn to it? You say you’re not? Okay – what happens to you when you see two people duking it out on the street, or preparing to do so amidst tough talk? Two things, if you’re like most people. You think “someone should break this up,” and you might even try to break it up yourself. Fighting’s wrong, talking is better, call the cops, etc. At the same time, though, you can’t look away. You might crowd around and crane your neck to get a better look. When the first punch is thrown, a thrill passes through you. You don’t mean to feel it, you might even feel ashamed, but you can’t ignore the excitement. It’s “wrong,” someone is probably going to get hurt, but just the same, something feels very “right” about this. I remember as a kid in elementary school, any time a fight or scuffle jumped off at recess, kids would come running from all corners of the playground as if they could sense it (the kids yelling “fight, fight, fight!” didn’t exactly keep it secret, either). I was right there with them. This was before ultra-violent video games, television, movies, and music were around to get the blame. Nope – this was interest in violence for violence’s sake. No outside influences.
Longtime readers will know that inherent human traits or behaviors pique my interest. When people seem instinctually drawn to something – playing with dirt, sunbathing, delicious animal flesh – I go looking for an explanation, because more often than not, there’s evidence of a benefit to the activity. There’s usually some deep-seated “reason” couched in our evolution as animals. Kids eating dirt introduces novel bacteria to young immune systems, sunbathing provides vitamin D, animals give us fat, protein, vitamins, and minerals. What does violence give us? Broken bones, black eyes, and bruised egos aside, I can’t help but wonder if fighting is somehow good, or even necessary for us. At the very least, our apparently instinctual proclivity to violence suggests that violence isn’t a product of civilization, but that it’s much, much older. That there is an evolutionary adaptation to violence. That the potential for it exists in all of us as a holdover from our prehistory.
If you examine our history, it’s obvious that early man knew violence. I won’t say “he was violent” or ascribe a degree of violence, because we just don’t know enough. What we do know is that evidence of human-to-human violence exists in the fossil records and confirms that life in the paleolithic wasn’t auroch milk ice cream and rainbows all the time. Skeletons with stone arrows embedded in chest plates, bones with blunt trauma fractures… it wasn’t necessarily a regular occurrence, but violent death certainly occurred.
It may have even been rare; as one recent article suggests, inter-group conflict most likely occurred due to resource scarcity and territorial infringement (that’s usually why conflicts arise between groups of chimps and there’s plenty of evidence suggesting the same for preagricultural humans) and given the low human population densities of the paleolithic, regular full-scale war didn’t really make sense. The authors do note that the potential for violence probably always existed in hominids. There’s even evidence (PDF) that moderate aggression, which might be described as the potential for violence, was a selective adaptation, since the aggressor would have a better chance of procuring resources and, thus, mates to bear his offspring.
So while most modern humans are largely divorced from violence (at least in any physical, active way), we are drawn to it, and it was a contextual feature of human evolution. Tomorrow, we’ll explore whether we should banish violence outright, or whether we ignore it to our peril. For now, though, I want to hear your thoughts on violence. Have you been in a fight? How do you see violence – is it an absolute negative or is there possible good in it, too?
Thanks for reading, and be sure to leave a comment.
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Posted By: Mark Sisson
Does anyone likes paintball?
Love paintball.
Even in judo or wrestling practice, I hated to lose. It’s a little like being killed. Of course there are rules, but still, it sucked.
I am an amateur mma fighter. I think fighting is fun and love the competition of the sport. When I have been in fighting and training often, I am typically a happier person. I have never been in an unsanctioned fight, but at times feel aggressive towards males I have never met. This feeling is typically towards the male around that is trying to draw all the attention to himself. I would say this feeling would be a primal urge to prove dominance, but when I have been training and competing regularly, the feeling is not as strong.
I think violence in any form is a threat to society as a whole. Usually violence is a last resort when when all intelligence fails. It is violence today that is breaking down society. Lack of respect preludes actual violence – violence follows. Lack of personal space in today’s society encourages violence just a providing too small of space for any specie will provoke fighting and violence.
You do realize you wouldn’t have society if it weren’t for violence?
Someone mentioned scientific arguments cited by Wade that violence was very common. For a strong argument that warfare was virtually non-existent among nomadic foragers, see Douglas P. Fry, Beyond War: The Human Potential for Peace (Oxford, 2007). He shows that most violence is episodic and between individuals, usually over women, and that hunter-gatherers had a multitude of cultural means for limiting and overcoming violence. As for Darwinian arguments that the violent would have more mates, he shows that there is plenty of evidence against that and that being excessive violent will also get you killed by other members of society that have had enough. Most scientific work on this question has been highly biased by the blinders of civilization (and outright scientific fraud in some cases), and seek to extend violence over property back in time pre-agriculture when it just doesn’t apply.
don’t forget that most tribal “warfare” was really low intensity conflict resulting in a few broken bones or minor cuts. Deaths in these conflicts were apparently fairly rare. Many cultures even used aggressive sports such as lacrosse and early variation of soccer/football/basketball to solve such conflicts.
a dozen toddlers in a sandbox having intermittent and minor scuffles is far less threatening a thought than 2 adults with shotguns having even infrequent disagreements in that same area.
Anyone else watch Braveheart (Mel Gibson); an early scene with the 2 kids where they just have a slugfest with each other to solve an argument?
I was jealous.
The first thing I thought of while reading this article was the “fight” that takes place in the movie Bridget Jones Diary between Mark Darcy and Daniel Cleaver. Everyone is stunned and then the gay best friend runs into a restaraunt and says “fight…well quICK! IT’S A REAL FIGHT!” and everyone rushes outside to watch the two “gentlemen” go at it (they clearly have NO fighting skills).
As a lady, I admit, I kinda dig violence… to an extent (not a fan of gore). A couple random, scattered thoughts:
1. There is a strong connection between sex and violence… perhaps as part of the Alpha scenario. If a boyfriend were to defend my honor by punching the offending douchebag, boyfriend would be rewarded… repeatedly. I also find wrestling/play fighting with the bf to be excellent foreplay.
2. Handling guns and practicing martial arts are also enjoyable… both are very focused and calming and I like the assurance that comes from knowing I could handle myself in a violent situation. And knowing I could handle myself makes a fight unnecessary a lot of times. There’s a lot to be said for simply standing one’s ground.
3. I wish that it were more acceptable for women to fight with fists instead of the back-stabbing/passive-agressive bull. BUT – I think the passive-agressive stuff is a skill in and of itself.
Last week, one of my weight loss clients told me he was a “bad person.” I asked “Why in the world would you feel that way?” He said it was because he’s been in two fist fights since going primal 9 months ago…people were rude or just pissed him off and he started swinging. Now this is an educated, well-employed man in his mid-40′s (so highly usual behavior for him).
We regularly see natural, measurable increases in testosterone levels on a Primal/Paleo program. Soy seems to be emasculating the men in our society as well…take that out of the diet along with a Primal/Paleo regimen and it’s not surprising that some men will experience a higher tendency towards physical aggression.
Seems perfectly “natural” to me.
Thanks for a fascinating post, as usual Mark!
The problem may be that there is a failure of the language to describe “violence”. When is violence okay? I would think it is okay when you are defending yourself, your home/territory , defending someone else (ie: a child), or when you are hunting food. These forms of violence are found all around the animal world. No one thinks the lion is wrong for killing the gazelle. But when is violence wrong? Well, what if that lion decided to kill all of the cheetas in order to hunt their food. Or if a lion had just killed a gazelle and then it decided to kill a wildebest. In both of those cases the lion would seem off, or not right… So doing something violent doesnt make it wrong; it depends what you are doing.
Most of us claim to be non-violent, while asking proxies to perform violent acts that we refuse individually to commit.
Its weird, I like violence (sparring and wrestling) among friends when there’s no ill will; just the thrill of besting someone else and using muscles the most natural way (combat).
However I avoid fights out at bars and have had to side-step some situations before. Its not just because someone could pack a weapon or a group could jump me but because I don’t like the ill-will associated with it. I hate feeling like I have to watch my back.
Go on Google and do a search for “Dr. Ruthless”. This lady has taken women’s self defense totally primal.
I practiced aikido for three years, and often miss it. It gave me a (mostly) safe physical outlet for what you’re describing in this article.
I consider my daily physical exertion (i.e., weightlifting, metcon, etc.) to serve the same purpose. I still miss aikido (though not the back pain).
There are no places and really no peoples on Earth which are not “threatened” by the hand of man in one form or another..
Violence is just another form of mans greed..self gratification..need to control…
whatever you call it…man IS a violent creature…just wait until we have shortages of fuel, water or food…THEN you will see the so called peaceful people..become as violent as the rest…Violence is the excuse for not thinking..and or getting along>>>
As said by Sylvester Stallone in Rambo: “When you’re pushed, killing comes as easy as breathing”. The best example from the movie of that is the Christian missionary who jumps one of the soldiers and kills him with a rock. For real life examples, one just needs to look for stories of ordinary citizens defending themselves. These are often people who have no formal combat training, only some pistol training to qualify for their CCW. Yet, “when pushed”…robbers, rapists, burglars and other scum end up dead. “Comes as easy as breathing”, for sure…
Great post. Loving the evolutionary biology perspective. In my opinion, I feel that violence, for the most part, has been sequestered due to establishments such as government.
To me, the ability to be in touch with your violent side is key to being able to preserve your own safety, should the need ever arise. Fighting for sport is a good way to unleash our inclination to fight, doing so in a controlled way…but I think that a lot of us have lost interest in being able to defend ourselves; we assume we’ll never have to, or that someone else will do it for us. The reality is that our PRIMAL instinct that says, “If you threaten my safety, I will rip you apart” is the only thing that will really save us if we’re ever attacked. Violence is mostly psychological, so I recommend training yourself to unleash your killer instinct for the day that you hope never comes.
Not as much “lost interest” as just having been mentally neutered by society. This neutering can be undone, either by training, or by “contact with reality”.
We are endowed with a sympathetic nervous system in which autonomic summations interact with the conscious mind in determining fight or flight. Very primal indeed. The violence issue becomes infinitely more complex in the arena of civilization, government, social moray, and the rest. For the individual to survive it is a necessity to either fight or flee when the causative circumstances arise.
I’m also female and I enjoy a bit of controlled violence myself. I like action movies, I play a lot of computer games (I used to be a PC games journalist) and I used to do Thai boxing, where I enjoyed contact sparring.
Obviously, this is a lot different to being harrassed by an aggressive male or worse – but the instinct is there nonetheless.
I think we all have this instinct, to a certain extent, and finding the right outlet for it is important. Bottling it up only leads to stress and illness.
I have a 4 year old boy. The ability to push, hit, kick, poke, and grab is deeply embedded in his dna. We have to work with him every day on how to play nicely with his friends. That’s not to say our species is inherently violent. If you look at young lion cubs, they fight constantly. You might think they are learning to be aggressive. They are not. They are learning to control their aggression. When adult lions fight, they are fighting not with all their might. Neither one wants to be permanently damaged. So it is with preschool boys too (and our species). I think they are created to be physical but that they are learning, through all the punching hitting and grabbing, to control their aggression.
Violence is healthy, and cathartic within reasons. Rules are a good way to handle that.
Especially so in today’s world where “enlightenment” so often means neutering for guys. Sometimes a nice little scrap is the perfect thing to bring your feelings up.
That’s why so many normal guys are experiencing a renaissance with sports like MMA and boxing.
Violence is an unavoidable truth. Whether it be sport, crime or war, there will always be violence. In the Primal lifestyle we learn to indulge our instincts, but at the same time we must balance that with being modern civilized people. I can’t go beating up every jackass that cuts me off on the interstate….no matter how much instinct and desire makes me want to. That being said, watching or participating in violent (but controlled and consensual) activities such as MMA is a great way to indulge the violent side many of us might have. Also, one of the main reasons we live this lifestyle is to live long healthy lives. So wouldn’t logic dictate us making other steps to assure a long life? I buckle up anytime I get in the car and using that same self preservation logic I carry a concealed firearm anywhere I am legally allowed to. So my take on violence: maturely accept it, embrace it, prepare for it and be smart enough to avoid it in uncontrolled circumstances.
I have noticed that since I went primal in April, I’m much more violent. I keep it all my head though, which is good
I don’t relate to this article at all. I think what it’s getting at, is the competitive side in all of us; this does NOT have to resort to violence.
I don’t relate to this article. I think these are huge and broad slippery slope generalizations. What I think it’s getting at is the competitive nature that’s natural in all of us.
When I was a bit younger that “thrill” was certainly appealing, and evident from the accompanied adrenaline. But even with it I still refused to participate in what was happening around me, and I’m still clean to this day. Time eroded my wayward curiosity towards violence, and for that I am thankful. The modern rendition of violence is a sickening, pathetic invention that holds no substance or positive conclusion. I’m talking about cases such as the aforemention bar-fight, or the typical street-scrap after a night out over something so fruitlessly nonsensical. We should all be capable enough to tunnel through these urges. I don’t understand why people have to be so fucking bad to each other.
there’s alot of bad men in this world. crazy F#*@ks that want to seriously hurt you, just because you’re not what they are. who would you want in your camp when you come under attack, a pasifist or a fighter? ANGER was how one protected his clan (fight or flight response). i guess it’s one of those genectic traits.
Great article and one that I was actually thinking of requesting. Glad someone else did it! I’ve been involved in combat sports for over 10 years now, and in my opinion the reason we see so much spontaneous violence in bars etc (aside from alcohol of course) is because we are continuously told by society to push down those urges. Out of the hundreds of people I have met and know from fighting, not one has the inclination to go out and get into trouble because they “get it out of their system” at training.
I believe on some level fighting is as innate to us as breathing, however there doesn’t have to be violent intent behind it. Look at all the different animals that play fight for instance. When I am injured or take an extended layoff from training, I inevitably get a bit down. It’s not the down from a sudden withdrawal of exercise (I find ways around most injuries), but the withdrawal from fighting leaves me feeling flat, like something isn’t quite right.
Violence is not nice but sadly sometimes seems necessary. I’d love to live in a world without it.
I’d like to think violence is tempered by good society which in turn is tempered by thoughtful intellect.
Lets keep evolving.
I’d like to add only necessary in extreme circumstances like when ones life is threatened to some degree.
I agree with Ashley that violence is different from a competitive nature.
It’s not really a question of good or bad. It’s simply a necessity of living on a planet with limited resources. All animals need to utilize some degree of violence to protect themselves and their interests.
We now have the technology to overcome most forms of scarcity, so technically violence shouldn’t be needed anymore… but it’s so deeply ingrained in our DNA that it’ll always be with us – just like our need for delicious meat, sunshine, and physical companionship.