Violence: An Introduction to a Primal Instinct
For a guy that people don’t usually reference when talking about the ancestral health community, Tucker Max gave a fantastic talk on the importance of violence a couple weeks ago at the symposium. It was on the importance of violence in human evolution, and it centered on what he’d learned about himself since joining a mixed martial arts (MMA) gym several years back. His slides are now available, so I’d recommend taking a quick glance at them. The real meat was in the talk itself, though. Check out the video (and stick around for Seth’s talk, too). Hat tip to Tucker for stoking my thoughts on this topic.
We have a weird relationship with violence, especially in the 21st century. For the most part, we live in a time of unprecedented peace. Although with civilization and government come new challenges to personal freedom, most of us aren’t in immediate danger of being robbed, raped, assaulted, murdered, or dragged into war. Physical violence is easily avoided, and yet we are drawn to it. It fascinates us even as it horrifies us. We condemn those who engage in it while sneaking peeks and wondering what it would be like to fight.
But here’s where we run into trouble: violence is bad, right? Torture, rape, murder, serial killers, genocide, war… these are not nice things, and they’re all examples of violence. Anyone and (mostly) everyone will agree that these are absolute negatives. Laws against murder are universal (if selectively applied), and any reasonable culture considers rape to be a monumental crime. War is sometimes necessary, but it’s not a pleasant endeavor for anyone, neither victor nor loser. “War is hell,” remember. Torture is craven (and from what I’ve read, ineffective) and cruel, while genocide is the ultimate evil (even if some people somewhere support it).
If violence is bad, why are we drawn to it? You say you’re not? Okay – what happens to you when you see two people duking it out on the street, or preparing to do so amidst tough talk? Two things, if you’re like most people. You think “someone should break this up,” and you might even try to break it up yourself. Fighting’s wrong, talking is better, call the cops, etc. At the same time, though, you can’t look away. You might crowd around and crane your neck to get a better look. When the first punch is thrown, a thrill passes through you. You don’t mean to feel it, you might even feel ashamed, but you can’t ignore the excitement. It’s “wrong,” someone is probably going to get hurt, but just the same, something feels very “right” about this. I remember as a kid in elementary school, any time a fight or scuffle jumped off at recess, kids would come running from all corners of the playground as if they could sense it (the kids yelling “fight, fight, fight!” didn’t exactly keep it secret, either). I was right there with them. This was before ultra-violent video games, television, movies, and music were around to get the blame. Nope – this was interest in violence for violence’s sake. No outside influences.
Longtime readers will know that inherent human traits or behaviors pique my interest. When people seem instinctually drawn to something – playing with dirt, sunbathing, delicious animal flesh – I go looking for an explanation, because more often than not, there’s evidence of a benefit to the activity. There’s usually some deep-seated “reason” couched in our evolution as animals. Kids eating dirt introduces novel bacteria to young immune systems, sunbathing provides vitamin D, animals give us fat, protein, vitamins, and minerals. What does violence give us? Broken bones, black eyes, and bruised egos aside, I can’t help but wonder if fighting is somehow good, or even necessary for us. At the very least, our apparently instinctual proclivity to violence suggests that violence isn’t a product of civilization, but that it’s much, much older. That there is an evolutionary adaptation to violence. That the potential for it exists in all of us as a holdover from our prehistory.
If you examine our history, it’s obvious that early man knew violence. I won’t say “he was violent” or ascribe a degree of violence, because we just don’t know enough. What we do know is that evidence of human-to-human violence exists in the fossil records and confirms that life in the paleolithic wasn’t auroch milk ice cream and rainbows all the time. Skeletons with stone arrows embedded in chest plates, bones with blunt trauma fractures… it wasn’t necessarily a regular occurrence, but violent death certainly occurred.
It may have even been rare; as one recent article suggests, inter-group conflict most likely occurred due to resource scarcity and territorial infringement (that’s usually why conflicts arise between groups of chimps and there’s plenty of evidence suggesting the same for preagricultural humans) and given the low human population densities of the paleolithic, regular full-scale war didn’t really make sense. The authors do note that the potential for violence probably always existed in hominids. There’s even evidence (PDF) that moderate aggression, which might be described as the potential for violence, was a selective adaptation, since the aggressor would have a better chance of procuring resources and, thus, mates to bear his offspring.
So while most modern humans are largely divorced from violence (at least in any physical, active way), we are drawn to it, and it was a contextual feature of human evolution. Tomorrow, we’ll explore whether we should banish violence outright, or whether we ignore it to our peril. For now, though, I want to hear your thoughts on violence. Have you been in a fight? How do you see violence – is it an absolute negative or is there possible good in it, too?
Thanks for reading, and be sure to leave a comment.
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Posted By: Mark Sisson
I would say this although we may have inherited a predisposition toward violence as a part of our genetic inheritance and that this predispostion may come in handy in defending ourselves and our loved ones from harm, and defending our foodstuffs and posessions from raiding, that I agree with the anarcho-primitivists when it comes to the more endemic societal ill of “violence”
Anthropologists indicated that hunter-gatherer groups did/do often engage in small scale tribal war-fare but that these engagements were often non-lethal. The more objectionable forms of systematic violence in sexism, classism, and large scale lethal engagements tend to emerge with the increased population and social stratification of agriculturalist societies.
I do mma/brazilian jiu-jitsu, I have read, and enjoyed, Yukio Mishima’s “Sun and Steel”. I enjoy “violent acts”. but violence can be done without hate, and without the desire or intent to harm. Perhaps “strenuous physical exertion in the opposition of a mutually engaged opponent’s will” would be a better name for “healthy violence”. Sounds like sport. “Imposing your will forcibly upon another” is the violence we should try to avoid. this definition could even inlude non-physical acts of aggression. One is healthy and part of our nature, and the other is morally reprehensible.
As someone who grew up in an abusive/violent home, I know that ‘violence’ absolutely has a place in our society.
The person doing the abusing, my father, was a hippie, make-love-not-war type. As a kid, I was absolutely dumbfounded that he could espouse the ideas of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Gandhi, then come home and turn into a rage-aholic.
The basic fact is that testosterone absolutely causes aggression, however, there is less outlet for this aggression in a ‘civilized’ society. There is something to be said for supervised violence so that it doesn’t erupt uncontrollably during times of high stress.
Anger, stress, fear (as well as positive emotions) are full-body experiences. We don’t simply feel these emotions in our heads; we feel anger from our heart to our extremities.
We act, however, as though the emotions are not visceral, physical experiences and that they are separate from our bodies.
Additionally, there is nothing wrong with anger which can be the subtext of some new age thinking. Anger is a healthy, normal reaction. Our expression of that anger is where the problem lies, if there is one.
There is a reason that “Fight Club” did so well.
I have to take issue with Mark’s assertion that we are living in relative “peace” in the 21st century, or that the average person is “divorced” from violence. Makes me wonder if we’re living in the same 21st century. I work for a police agency, which is going to color my view, but any typical evening news cast is going to be mostly concerned with the latest violence whether local or international. Also, this is a weakness with the “Grok” character. The “bio” fails to emphasize that he was probably envolved in some kind of violent conflict with his fellow “paleos” for a fair number of his waking hours.
The presentation of Tucker Maxx shows he was humbled by getting punched in the face a few times, for him it was much needed.
Most people that condone violence forgot what was said in the beginning of the presentation: people who can fight are less likely to use violence.
It is politically correct to say violence is bad, but it is everywhere. It’s also the “bad people” that know how to fight better, that is a problem.
It’s like in these London riots that could have been avoided by kicking a few teeth in, and then the other “kids” would see it was not ok to torch buildings.
It’s teaching a bullied kid how to fight back instead of mommy telling him to “be the better person and ignoring it” so he is a constant victim of physical and psychological abuse (needing anti depressants and opening the way to continuous poisoning of body and soul).
It’s been a while that I read the Primal Blueprint but there was something about “Common Sense” which applies here! Some people should try Tucker Max’s advice, when you get punched in the face you get off your high horse very fast! It’s a great stress reliever!
I think you’re onto something here. There is a big difference between being a bully and being strong. I have a black belt in Kenpo karate and while I would fight if backed into a corner, I’d just as soon avoid a fight if possible. That said, I’m not teaching my kids to back down from bullies because there are some people who only understand the language of violence.
We can argue all day that we’re more evolved than that, but reality would argue otherwise. Common sense and high-minded philosophy don’t tend to go hand-in-hand.
Physical strength was also a means of selecting social pecking order in tribes. The alpha male could probably beat the shit out of all the beta males, but I’m sure the beta males gave it an effort once in a while because being an alpha has its perks.
check out the book manthropology
Pretty much all the fights I have been in were in junior high, this was back at the beginning of integration, worst two years of my life by far.
Most humans find striking another human to be repugnant, unfortunately there are a few who enjoy it more than almost anything else.
I was involved in martial arts when I was young and was good at sparring but I could not, and never will be able to, strike another person with the intent to hurt them without feeling sick to my stomach.
“It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.”
Yet war is evidently not terrible enough, for it remains immensely popular among homo sapiens, 150 years after those words were spoken. The modern examples are too numerous and depressing to list.
The urge to violence against our own species is innate in humans, as it is in our closest relatives, the chimps. We define artificial out-groups, dehumanize them, and treat them worse than animals when given half a chance. The evidence abounds in our behavior in the real world and on the internet.
We can’t ignore the impulse and wish it away. We must seek to understand it, the better to sublimate our destructive instincts into productive pursuits.
Personally, I enjoy smashing things with a sledgehammer.
In the past I found sports and music to be great outlets for aggressive impulses.
i’m not coming out to play today. I think i’ll stay home and clean my guns.
Love the timing of this article. I’m starting a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu class tomorrow and am looking forward to the physical aspect of fighting, defense, etc.
Enjoy it! BJJ is like someone sat down and thought of a way to combine street fighting and chess. Genius!
You lost me at “Tucker Max.” What a complete DB that guy is. If he is held up as and example of what it means to be “Primal”… then I’m finding a different adjective to describe this new lifestyle of mine.
Those were exactly my thoughts! But I watched his talk, and it’s almost scary how different he sounds from the person he portrays himself as in his books. I never thought I’d hear this guy PRAISE things other than himself, and yet here he is… Like yes, he’s an idol to douchebags everywhere, and clearly he thinks of himself as the best. But the fact that he picked up MMA and the primal lifestyle to reinforce that notion says a lot about “primal”. It’s essentially about self-improvement. And maybe I’m getting fooled by his facade, but I think it’s humbled him a bit as well.
Just keep in mind, sociopaths are experts at mimicking real emotions, manipulating and charming others to get what they want, playing the sympathy card, etc…
Agreed. And he is a sociopath. And, inevitably, his schtick of heavily fabricated stories lost its cachet as he has gotten older, so he needs a new schtick. I didn’t watch his speech, nor will I.
Of course I kept that in mind, hence my last sentence
My sentiments exactly.
Ha ha, Peter. My husband said the exact same thing about “fabricated stories”. LMAO
There is a lot of info out there on the interwebs about the validity of most of his stories. No question there are kernels of truth to his abhorrent (no folks, NOT alpha) behavior, but way overblown. And the reality is, he has become the guy that is still living in his past, and those around him are wondering when he will move on from it. It is unfortunate that there are women who, for whatever reason, considered it a badge of honor, or a good story, or whatever, to give themselves to him, but as they have matured, I’m sure they are more and more regretful. I can’t believe anybody would buy his book(s)…he’s trying desperately to hang on with more stories in new books…nor admire him. The worst example of a “man” out there. And obviously fraught with deep issues, if you find some independent accounts about him, not those created by himself.
Not all violence is created equal…
Just as farming manifested from eating, war has manifested from scuffles involving a couple of bare handed people. Technology has given it wings and our ability to inflict violence has expanded exponentially…much like our ability to do everything else (eat, drink, offend, pollute).
Violence has its place. If it did not, there would be no leadership in pack animals. How is dominance asserted? Through violence. We are offended so easily by horrific pictures on the 6 o’clock news, but watching a nature show about the African Savannah is interesting and compelling. It’s “The Circle of Life”. They are 2 different extremes of the same violence.
Longevity aside, what good is all this physical prowess? It gives us a physical edge over our peers. It helps us rise against adversity (violence), or it would have 10,000 years ago.
Violence is not a problem. It’s what humans do with it that is the problem.
I totally agree.
Also, most people think women were 2nd class citizens, they weren’t.
The leaders female ate second in line before the rest of the males.
There is a reason why man kind gets and lived along side wolves for thousand of years. They have the exact same pecking order. Alpha dog first, then his female, then whoever next.
That’s true, I observe this with my pack of dogs every day at feeding time.
If a new female dog is introduced, the alpha dog has the first chance to win her over and make her part of his new female pack. If he shows no interest, another male will claim her and she won’t eat first together with the alpha dog. She will be in line with the rest, however the pecking order goes.
Of course, I make sure everyone has lots to eat and gets some of the important parts like liver or brain. They’re all on a primal diet
“inter-group conflict most likely occurred due to resource scarcity and territorial infringement”
You can apply similar modeling to modern warfare. It helps if you imagine humans as inherently competitive.
Humans need violence. Society now is way too soft.
Another thought; I’m sure if there was more violence obesity would no longer be a problem. People would have a REAL incentive to be fit, healthy, eat well etc.
This might explain why I love competative sports. I’ve always loved wrestling and jiu-jitsu. Now I just battle in the paint on the basketball court.
This reminds me of a book I read a while back called Ecotopia. It was a pretty cheesey read, actually, but described a utopian nation formed from what was formerly California. The citizens lived in close harmony with nature. But, the men also had organized tribal ‘wars’ with spears, war paint, the whole bit. It was intended as a way to vent the human (specifically male, I think) instinct for violence and action, and in the long run to improve the mental and physical health of the citizens by providing that outlet. Again, fairly cheesey and out-there. However, maybe we are seeing “safe” real-life parallels to this in the hardcore action/adventure races like Tough Mudder and Spartan Race?
I was going to mention Ecotopia as well. It is written from the fictional perspective of a typical 1970s reporter, so it is kind of outdated and sexist, despite the equality women have in that society. The fighting was highly ritualized and women could participate if they wanted, but mostly the women’s role was to tell the men how brave they had been and tend their wounds. Though I’m not super into the “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus” thing, it seems like there might be a biological need in some folks for this kind of activity. See also “Endemic warfare” on Wikipedia. Forgive me if it’s been mentioned before.
It’s interesting you posted this today since last night my fiance was watching random fights on YouTube last night. I agree with the first commenter, as a woman I am not fascinated by physical violence. In fact, it usually makes me uncomfortable (perhaps as being more of a nurturer?). I guess what I get uncomfortable about is excessive violence (continually hitting someone when they’re down) or violence for no reason at all. Violence for self defense is one thing, unnecessary or excessive violence is certainly another.
I mean, when angry, most people WANT to do harm on SOMETHING, be it inanimate object or the other person making us mad. Violence does seem to be something instinctual.
Maybe one could say violence, at its best, is a tool for returning to “homeostasis” at an interpersonal or social level. It should never be just about what someone needs to get out of their system. A worthy and valid goal should be in sight. Otherwise you’d be perpetuating chaos to satisfy your own hormonal surge.
Weston A Price states that people with deformed facial bones and dental arches also have suffered prenatal injuries in the brain. Behavior is therefor defective and results in high amount of violence.
Chapter 19: Physical, Mental and Moral Deterioration.
I had a high amount of anger and a raging temper my entire life. This all went away when I started eating PRIMAL and started undergoing a slow palatal expansion to fix my dental arch. My hearing and sense of smell has increased as a result of my palatal expansion.
If you’re eating primal, and are still suffering from rage and temper tantrums, then look a little deeper.
Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston Price sure is an interesting read, and explains in details why usually the more deformed looking people are the most violent ones.
Also, most house dogs (not to mention they never get out) turn aggressive when fed a diet of kibble (grains, starches and canola oil).
Looks like bad nutrition goes hand in hand with bad behavior.
“Looks like bad nutrition goes hand in hand with bad behavior.”
OMG, I totally agree.
If you look at history it shows that violence amongst each other inreased dramatically when the neolithic era started.
Grains made everyone kookoo.
I play ball hockey outdoors in the rain and snow all winter with a group of people (mixed women and men) and there is *plenty* of aggression and violent actions (from women and men though the men obviously take it a bit easier on the women and the older men or anyone who is playing injured) but nothing injurious in a major way, just pushing and shoving to get at the ball or knock someone off it in the corners etc.
Lot’s of yelling and shouting and pushing and shoving, it’s a blast!
It’s one of the most rewarding things I do in life precisely because of the ability to take out aggression and violent urges.
At the end of the day we’re all enjoying beers and best friends, no aggression outside of the game at all.
I think contact sports are a key component of good mental health.
Gotta say, Mark couldn’t be more right. While initiating violence is generally bad, nobody denies that its acceptable to fight back. There’s a pretty good evolutionary justification for males to fight each other – practice for when they actually need to defend themselves or their families. That’s certainly one explanation for why young brothers love to fight each other, and why me and my buddies from college still enjoy the occasional spontaneous wrestling match.
I don’t see this in women as much though – it seems to be pretty unacceptable for women to fight in western cultures. However, doesn’t change the fact that I find the scene from From Russia With Love where the two gypsy girls fight to the death for a potential husband highly entertaining
An interseting subject. I started training mixed martial arts about 6 months ago. Joe Rogan had an amazing bit in his podcast about how training jiu-jitsu humbles you as a man. I completely agree. Getting you ass kicked for five 5min rounds seriously humbles you!
I train submission wrestling now regularily and olympic wrestling before that from a young age. There is no amount of heavy lifting, crossfit, and other “non-agressive” forms of training (which I also do on a regular basis) that really get my adrenaline going the same way. Lifting something really heavy just doesnt compare to rolling around wrestling and choking a guy out after a well fought battle. The satisfaction is just more complete for me if that makes sense.
Im not saying I crave aggression outside the controlled enviroment of my submission wrestling club but I would be in some way unfulfilled with only doing other non-martial art sports. Maybe Im just an adrenaline junkie? Or is there something primal in besting another human for bragging rights?
My six-year-old son recently commented, “You know one kind of wiggle that I wish I could get out? I want to hit things or people.”
I’ve been thinking a lot about violence recently and realized that violence is as much a part of life as nonviolence. Fact is, for me to live something has to die and that involves violence. However, violence must be used judiciously when dealing with the world. Peaceful means are preferable, but sometimes violent measures are necessary.
All you folks looking for an outlet for your built up excess energy, go live on an amish farm for a year.
By the time each day is over you’re gonna wanna be in bed, asleep.
I think our fascination with violence is evident in the number of comments so far.
There has to be some level of attraction…why else would my 4 yr old LOVE to pick on his younger brother?
Great post Mark!
Great post Mark! And great comments too. I love this topic and do hope you’ll continue with it. I am also deeply interested in inherent human traits and I’ve wondered if violence is just a part of being human.
Video games and TV are kind of freaky, though, in their level of violence. But I wonder if that is just a reaction to our pacifist ideology. And if our pacifist ideology isn’t responsible for needless and extreme violence like Columbine.