My Escape from Vegan Island
Every once in a while, I am alternately stunned and amused by what I see being promoted in the name of good health. I had one of those “stunningly amusing” episodes when I took an eight-day vacation with my family to an all-vegetarian health and adventure retreat in Costa Rica several months ago. We had joined a group of 125 headed by Dr. John McDougall, an accomplished and well-respected physician who uses a strict vegetarian/vegan lifestyle to address disease states in his patients and (ostensibly) to promote better health among the general population. I wasn’t too keen on attending, strict carnivore that I am, but I’m always up for an experiment of one and, moreover, I was convinced by my mostly-vegetarian wife and her vegan parents that our extended family would enjoy a nice tropical vacation together. And the food promised to be so yummy… so I made the leap with my wife, two kids, the in-laws and some cousins.
First off, I must say, I did have a very enjoyable time in Costa Rica with my family, rafting, diving, zip lining and hiking…but after what I witnessed during my stay, I can assure you that I have never been so certain that the Primal Blueprint way of eating – which I have embraced for over 30 years now – is the best way to achieve and maintain excellent health. Frankly, I was appalled at both the information being disseminated during this event and at what I saw being served at every meal in the name of “health food.”
I am an omnivore and always have been. Carrie, my wife, was a vegetarian for fifteen years until I convinced her about five years ago to starting adding fish to her diet to get more protein. She still considers herself, in the words of the Outback Steakhouse guy, a “semi-veg.” My wife’s parents have been strict vegans for nearly thirty years and are ardent followers of Dr. McDougall. McDougall’s own story involves having had a severe stroke at age 19 from which, at 59, he still limps. He became an MD and eventually realized that diet was an important part of the health equation. He’s a very likable and charming guy. I had a few superficial discussions with him, even attended a few of his nightly lectures. His heart is certainly in the right place, but I fear he is leading people down a wholly inappropriate dietary path. At the risk of oversimplifying, the basis of his program is that almost all starch is good, all fat is bad and meat of any kind is deadly. It is, in his words, a “starch-based” diet, high in grains and legumes.
The attendees were generally divided into two groups: those who were fairly new to the program – many of them had some serious weight to lose – and those who had been on the McDougall program for several years. Many of the latter group, I gathered, had come to McDougall originally with one or more chronic diseases and on multiple medications. Each evening, after the adventure activity of the day (all of which were pretty sedate), Dr. McDougall would deliver a lecture intended to inform the group of the evils of traditional medicine and big pharma – much of which I generally agree with – and to demonize beef, pork, chicken, fish, dairy of all kinds and most forms of soy. I got the general gist after the first evening. He’s not a fan of supplements either. But he does imply that when you eat vegetarian, you can have all you want…and therein lay the source of much amusement for me.
The lecture would adjourn and everyone would line up for the buffet line which would, at virtually every meal, include copious amounts of breads and rolls, rice, potatoes, pasta, beans, some anemic-looking steamed vegetables and a romaine-only lettuce salad. No dressings allowed. The only fat I could see was in the guacamole that served as a spread. The desert table had a variety of fruits and at least two choices of so-called “healthy” cakes. The drinks were generally overly sweetened fruit drinks.
Now I’m not one to judge. Okay, I am, but I usually keep my mouth shut – except herein. I watched at every meal as overweight, unhealthy people piled their plates with at least two pounds of bread, pasta, rice, potatoes, beans, desert cake, and a glass of fruit juice. Sometimes they went back for more. By my calculations these people were consuming 200 to 300 or more grams of (mostly simple) carbohydrates at each of three meals. There was no way these folks were going to lose fat on this trip. It was, in my view, a type 2 diabetes epidemic in-the-making.
In fending for myself, I focused mainly on the salads and the black beans mixed with a little rice. As you regular readers know, I don’t “do” breads, potatoes, pasta, desserts or fruit drinks. I think they are unhealthy. Go figure. I have to say, it sure got old after a day or two.
Of those who had already been on the McDougall program for years, I had the following general observation: they don’t look too healthy. People who subsist on grains and simple carbs at the expense of quality protein for any length of time tend to lose muscle mass, regardless of their exercise regimen. They are what we call “skinny fat“. Essentially, they have no lean tissue and yet they have surprisingly high body fat levels, despite their loose “skin and bones” appearance. Lean body mass is a major defining criterion of good health; and these folks were sorely lacking. Excess carbohydrate turns to fat pretty easily, but you can neither build nor preserve muscle with it. Herein lies the confusion for many folks: while glucose serves as short-term fuel for muscles, it does not build nor maintain them. One woman, a 62-year old triathlete who trains hours a day and competes almost every weekend authoritatively suggested that I was a fool to eat meat and that I should embrace the McDougall program as she had for 15 years. Problem was, she looked like hell. No muscle tone at all and, I suspect, a fairly high body fat for someone who fancied herself an athlete. It took all I had to keep from saying something that might have spoiled her trip!
As with any diet regimen, Dr. McDougall backs his theories up with studies. But that’s the biggest problem with the “science” of nutrition: anyone can find a study here or there that supports almost any premise. To wit: Fish is great because it’s a source of important Omega 3 fats, but fish is bad because it’s a source of toxic heavy metals, but fish is great because the heavy metals are not actually present at realistically dangerous levels, but fish is bad because the fish lobby was the one funding the study on relative safety, and on ad infinitum.
If there were a right answer, everyone would be doing it. I guess the best any of us can do is to align the “receptivity filters” in our brains with our current belief systems and create habits that reinforce those beliefs – and that, hopefully, result in healthy bodies and minds. Ultimately, I have chosen to believe that we were programmed to eat primarily small portions of meat and vegetables, with a little fruit thrown in occasionally. It works for me (53 years old, 5’10” 165 lbs and 8% body fat).
Problem is, if you have no understanding of biology or chemistry, you can easily fall for that old vegan argument that meat is bad (notwithstanding the fact that there has never, in the entire history of man, been a country, culture or race that subsisted entirely on vegetables without animal flesh of some kind). Many people do fall for it. They also fall for the old “protein leaches calcium” argument, completely ignoring the fact that bones require protein as well as weight bearing activity to promote bone density and prevent osteoporosis. Or that stress has a far greater impact on preventing absorption of calcium than excess protein in the diet. But here I am giving you my opinion again and it’s only based on studies that my filters have shown align with my own beliefs…
I was fascinated by what I saw to be the complete antithesis of a healthy diet being offered up as the healthiest way to eat. And by people willing to accept that they could eat all they want of this high-carb fare and regain their lost health in the process. Try as I might, I couldn’t avoid losing a few pounds of hard-fought muscle myself over the week. Luckily, I was able to regain homeostasis shortly after returning home. And ultimately, I was left with a confidence that following Primal Blueprint path is exactly what humans were designed to do.
What are your thoughts on vegetarianism, carbohydrates, and protein?
Be sure to stick around for today’s Tuesday 10.
(This piece was originally posted at my friend Art DeVany’s blog.)
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Posted By: Mark Sisson
Jainism espouses vegetarianism, as does Hindhuism. There is a long history of vegetarianism in the Indus valley civilization.
Yah the killers a pretty good at knocking off us pacifists though..
Uh, you better start reading the Upanishads and the different Gita’s. They used to slaughter 200,000 animals at a time for many feasts. They mainly became vegetarians because of an overflow of people and they could feed more people with cheese and milk. I’ve been to India several times and I’ll tell you, the vegetarian lifespan is somewhere around 45 years old. And yes, I do they they are very poor there!
Don’t know if this thread is still active but will add my 2 cents. Use common sense. Use logic. Know what’s in the food and drink you put in your body. What food and drink on the earth promotes health/what promotes disease? Every food from an animal has some type of disease promoting qualities. Every type of food from an animal causes inflammation of some type in the human body. People addicted to animal foods don’t like anyone messing with their “addictive drugs.” You’ll find out someday that plants are the answer to the best health. Many people will not ever get it as they are too close-minded.
Greg, you promote the use of logic yet you say, “Every type of food from an animal causes inflammation of some type in the human body”. Wow. Your statement is a brilliant example in the failure to successfully wield logic.
Agreed, Ron. 100 calories of sirloin is ANTI-inflammatory- having an inflammation factor of 16, (below zero is inflammatory and above is anti-inflammatory) while 100 calories of whole grain wheat is PRO-inflammatory (-60).
I wish people would look at the actual science before making such sweeping generalizations.
Yeah really Greg….have you not noticed that there are a number of fully functioning adults here that might like some sort of substance to back up such assertions, or do you enjoy exhibiting a complete lack of knowledge?
i been vegetarian for 6 years.vegan for almost 2 when done the right way you will get enough protein/nutrition,and vitamins.when i firsted turned vegetarian i was a horrible example i thought long as it wasn’t meat i was good so i would eating alot of whatever and high amounts.gained up to 280lbs at one point then got back on track starting 2009 and now i’m back to being in a good shape.its all about your macros protein,carbs and fats.once you find the right ratio for you and cut out processed food you’ll lose the pounds.
i think the chefs and people that thought of the trip are bad sounds like way too may carbs but then again it was a trip lol
that doctor isn’t the only example of a veggie diet.
Boy, just listening to how hard it is to move things around and mix just the right combos and make sure you get your B12 and how do you get your Omega 3′s again? Does this sound like the diet you were meant to live on? Can you imagine Grok sitting around saying, “how are we gonna fill in all our dietary needs?” I’ll take the American Indian approach. What a beautiful, simple life. What beautiful bodies.
This argument is like arguing about religion: if there were only ONE true way we would all follow it. Be primal and enjoy how it benefits you, but don’t assume that it will work well for everyone. I don’t get the need to be self-righteous vegan haters. Most of us don’t care what you eat and contrary to egotists’ beliefs, we also don’t spend all of our time judging you. FTR, I have been vegetarian/vegan (NO meat) for 24 years, I am VERY fit (not emaciated or overweight) and I run ultramarathons. The human body is an amazing system — lots of different, healthy nutritional lifestyles are possible.
You may not spend all your time judging, but you probably spend all your time figuring out what to eat to fill all your vegetarian needs. Did I get enough B12, did I get my Omega 3′s, do I need to eat some frankenfood to fill this or that gap? I’ll take what humans ate for mellenia over some Vegan type experiment any day of the week.
I was an on again off again vegan for YEARS! I could just cry thinking of all the mornings I ate oatmeal when I really wanted eggs, and all the dinners where I ate rice with veggies and was feeling hungry an hour later. It’s nearly impossible to manage your weight as a vegan cause you’re ALWAYS FREAKIN’ HUNGRY!
There is absolutely no requirement for meat in the human diet–Ivy schools Cornell and Harvard have already determined that the optimum amount of meat required in the human diet is ZERO!
This is not dogma–this is fact!
You went into this retreat with a closed mind despite your writings to the contrary. You were already convinced in your mind that paleo primal which has zero actual science behind it is better. If an overweight person is about to eat tons of starch based carbs they will feel satisfied and they will not consume harmful fat. You demonize carbs like Atkins and all of the other paleo promoters, but you have no clue about the role of natural sugars and fats in the body. You mistakenly blame sugar and carbs for diabetes when fat is and always has been the culprit. Fat interferes with proper sugar metabolism and messes with the insulin receptor sites and overworks the pancreas. Carbs such as starch have been staples for every single successful culture in existence since the beginning of time. This blog is quick to utilize anti-vegan dogma which makes the intentions of the blogger suspect. The lame argument that is quite often seen around the internet right now is “There has never been a culture that hasn’t eaten meat” This type of thinking intimates that our (bad) habits and virtues label our culture. Over 10 % of U.S. citizens are vegetarians right now. Is the U.S. predominantly a meat eating culture—yes right now it is. It is also a culture of rapists and murderers if we were to judge it by repeated offenses and habits. Change dictates that we move from one place to another and quite often that change may be the hardest thing to do. Adopting a plant strong diet is difficult for most Americans because they are obese, addicted, and constantly fed confusing and conflicting information that has no basis in science like the blog above.
PCRM (Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine) of which Dr. McDougall is a part are a large group of doctors who conduct clinical research and collect pertinent data regarding the diseases of affluence and their root causes. They have observed over the years the constant success of their diet programs and are not out to capitalize on the sick by submitting them to drugs, surgeries and protocols that do nothing for the patient but ensure lucrative returns for physicians.
Hmmm very strange that as a type 1 diabetic my insulin sensitivity has increased massively since going low carb (zero grains) and high animal fat. But i’m sure you’d be able to explain that, exspecially with all the references you’ve povided to back up these ‘facts’.
Same here Greg. My son is a type 1 and he uses half the insulin he used to. His endocrinologist is thrilled about his improved A1C numbers (typically below 7). And we don’t eat ‘no carbs’, he gets a half a sweet potato or a full fried plantain or a whole grapefruit at least once a day and boy is he getting big (and lean), no growth stunting here! Paleo eating is the best thing that has ever happened to my family, bar none.
Interestingly before being paleo/primal, we were raw vegan for nearly a year and I have never been sicker. I had to start taking advare for my asthma again and my allergies were out of control. That was three years ago. Now I don’t take any pharmacrap and I’ve been RUNNING in the 23 degree weather with aplomb.
Sadly, I wish the vegans and vegetarians could see that we agree on 90% of the things here: eat whole foods, don’t eat processed crud, eat leafy greens and fresh fruits. The only difference is that paleo/primal avoid grains and eats high quality meats (and delicious heart healthy natural saturated fats). See? Not that different at all!
-Tim
My god Mark, you are truly ignorant. It is carbs you have absolutely no need for in the human diet. You would die without fat or protein. You would not die without carbs. I could through every one of your opinions that have no basis in fact, but it’s exhausting to even think about it. Sorry, you can’t fool many folks on here. The Paleo community is one of the most scientifically studied, fact based, well read areas on the internet today. Yes we make mistakes, but we are always willing to learn more when the research bears it out..and we will look into it with open eyes and not emotion.
How about “different strokes for different folks”? You know, we are all individuals? Aboriginals left to themselves (no contact with civilization) never completely avoided carbs.
If biological individuality doesn’t count, how the heck can some folks consume quite a bit of fruit and sugar, yet stay slim and energetic even though they aren’t terribly active?
It could be opined that needing – and just as important, enjoying & thriving on – a 99% protein + fat diet is a sign of a particular form of constitution. No more or less.
Does anyone here address the matter of why some of us just can’t hack the lean protein + fat diet? Are we somehow inferior from birth? (Serious question.)
This gets me everytime: it’s not a choice between massive vegtables + carbs and massive protein + fat. Paleo is not all protein and fat. Paleo is Vegetables fruits and protein and fat. Now the ratios differ somewhat depending on which paleo person/guru you talk to but to think that we all eat only steaks and bacon all day is absurd. I personally eat a lot of fresh fruits and veggies with my complete proteins and heart healthy natural saturated fats. Heck this morning my breakfast was a fruit+coconut oil+egg smoothie. That said, I can’t have a lot of carbs or sugars or I feel lethargic and start putting on weight. Others might not have that problem… and that’s fine. I get sick of being labeled a ‘low carber’ when I am far more concerned with getting nutrient dense food and avoiding the birdseed that used to make me sick.
-Tim
Exactly. Paleo is about the quality of the food you eat and what you leave OUT. People get so hung up on the idea that it’s “low carb”, but frankly, only a low-carb Paleo diet is low carb enough to be labeled as such. There are moderate and high carb paleo diets too. Within the paleo parameters, a person can find whatever combination of macros works for them. Chances are, if you’re already lean, you’re not looking to lose weight, but if you’re overweight, you likely have some metabolic derangement going on and cutting carbs is the way to go. If you’re storing fat, CUT CARBOHYDRATE.
I also eat a ton of veggies, more than I did when I was VEGAN even, and I enjoy carrots and parsnips and yams on occasion too. The more active I am, the more starch I can healthfully eat. Paleo isn’t any single diet.
~Huntress
Wyandotte, who said anything about completely avoiding carbs? I was answering Mark in an above post. The human body does NOT need carbs to survive, but that’s not saying we can’t get great nutrients out of many fruits and vegetables. Who said anything about a 99% protein and fat diet on here. You need to read the site before you make ridiculous claims. We just may eat more veggies than most vegetarians because we cut out all the grains, pasta, potatos, legumes, etc. and fill that in with more fat and veggies.
Oh my gosh, i don’t remember when i laughed so darn much.
Thank you
dr mcdougal has cured more than 5000 people, ‘primal’ diet/atkind etc kills people (atkins died fat with congestive heart faliure) atkind type diet works short term then most people blow up and start binging on unhealthy things – atkins type diet is not sustainable. I know i was on it for 2 years folling advice from my personal trainer who is now depressed and taked tonns of suppliment just so he can stay awake, with dr mcdougal programme i eat things i love and have all the energy i want to thinings in life that i want to do.
Mark,
I agree that processed carbs are not a healthy diet.
You stated “I couldn’t avoid losing a few pounds of hard-fought muscle myself over the week.
Q: What objective measure did you use to quantify this conclusion?
Uh, maybe he stepped on a scale. He doesn’t have much fat to lose!
This is just a gross misrepresentation of what the mcdougall diet is all about. He doesn’t offer sugary drinks, He doesn’t promote refined foods, he doesn’t insinuate that you can supplement. He strictly advocates against all three of those things. Besides B12. Author is a liar. Mcdougall has helped countless people, with various ailments. Someone should club mark sisson with a brontosaurus femur everytime he lies.
He recommends fruit juice- I’m looking at his page now. 8 ounces of fresh apple juice contains more sugar than the same amount of Sprite. Do you consider Sprite a sugary drink?
Soy and nut cheese aren’t refined foods? Ener-G Egg Replacer? Tofu mayonaise? Light Tofutti? Frozen juice bars? I’m looking at the list of “allowed foods” on his official website right now. You are mistaken.
You are mistaken. (And the B12 IS a supplement after all.)
Mark is dead on… not a single lie.
Perhaps it would be helpful to club the ignorant instead, before they get their hands on a keyboard.
~Huntress
Huntress, that was a sublime reply. Most of these vegetarians STILL think fruit juice is healthy. It’s off the charts full of sugar (not to mention the newer and newer varieties of fruit grown with more sugar content, unlike the much less sweet whole fruit of ancient days). Just look at all that Frankenfood the Doctor served, and I use the word Doctor loosely.
Nacona,
Thank you. =) And I agree, his dependence on soy foods is pretty scary. Indigestible sugars, biounavailable proteins, estrogen mimickers, chelators and goitrogens does not a healthy food, make. ~shudders~
Certainly, taken out of context without reading the whole program one might assume he advocating drinking processed big name pure sugar fruit juices. of corse, he isn’t. The juices hes talking about are fresh juices, squeezed at home. but i did forget that this is the low carb, we-think-we-know-how-people-in-the-paleolithic-era-lived-and-fruit-is-what-makes-america-fat forum, regardless of what science says. For that, i apologize for even commenting in the first place. Contrary to how it may sound, all (ok most) of those substitutes he offers are minimally processed and could be made in a kitchen. He does go on to say how small a role all of those things you mention should have in someones diet. While he allows those foods as a means to keep the diet from being impossible for some people or newcomers to follow, he does stress the importance of keeping your diet “whole”. As far as the B12 “argument” goes, its one of the most neglected nutrients in any diet, vegan, vegetarian or omnivore. Animals dont make it, Heat destroys it, disinfecting our food kills it and washing soil off of food kills it. If we still foraged for food the way they did in the past, we would surely get B12 rich soil in our diet. im not eating dirt, so ill eat a supplement. Pretty sure Weston A. Price tub-o-lard Sally Fallon is a big B12 advocate as well, among many others that may or may not be respected in the paleo world. plus, if “going primal” was so perfect why are there two sidebars on this page selling supplements? Mark IS a liar, A liar who bases his ideas on poorly researched half-truths or incomplete information. His poorly researched ideas and easily debunked hypothesis on diet, genes and how we evolved as a species single-handedly (yes, im exaggerating) turned me into a vegan and managed to cure a litany of ailments, for that, i suppose i should thank him. Managing heart problems while still eating grain products, does put a monkey wrench in the gears at Paleo Inc. but it also feels great, having tried a low carb fad paleo type diet and feeling miserable, now, being able to take control of my life.
Rob,
You’ll note that I said fresh squeezed apple juice. Not the stuff from the supermarket. And I’ll repeat, a freshly juiced apple contains more sugar (and more free fructose) than the same amount of Sprite.
We know with absolute certainty that primitive man didn’t have access to fruit for more than a few weeks a year. We also know that that glut of fructose in the Fall triggered seasonal leptin and then insulin resistance, and that it is this adaptation that allowed primitive man to store fat to get him through lean Winters. We know with absolute certainty that the fruit he DID have access to contained significantly less sugar than today’s fruits do.
“He does go on to say how small a role all of those things you mention should have in someones diet. While he allows those foods as a means to keep the diet from being impossible for some people or newcomers to follow, he does stress the importance of keeping your diet “whole”.”
Perhaps if you’d been genuine in your criticism and used this language to begin with, you wouldn’t have been slapped down so harshly.
That’s very true- but their flesh does contain it, and the primary source of B12 is the gut flora of an animal.
Why do people think Sally Fallon is respected in the Paleo world? She advocates eating grains, beans and dairy- all THREE of these things are eschewed in paleo diets. Why would we CARE what Sally Fallon advocates?
“Mark IS a liar, A liar who bases his ideas on poorly researched half-truths or incomplete information.”
This is the second time you’ve called him a liar, and he still isn’t. Do you think if you say it again, it somehow becomes true? Mark isn’t the only Paleo expert out there- there are many others (Loren Cordain, Robb Wolf, Matt LaLonde, Ray Audette)- and most depend on peer-reviewed science as their resource. So if you think his ideas are poorly researched, quit bitchin’ and provide your own. Please do share your citations to peer-reviewed evidence. I for one am always open to learning something new. I spent two years as a vegan and was pretty heavily invested in it until the science showed me otherwise. So please, show me I’m wrong. Show me that the resolution to the diabetes, the hypertension, the GERD, the depression, the infertility and the acne were just a fluke- that my cholesterol came down from over 300 to just over 130 after leaving veganism, and I lost 100 pounds and my inflammation markers vanished due to some unaccounted-for confounder. Because really and truly, I’m always looking for better science.
Above all though, be genuine. For someone to be a liar, they actually have to LIE. You not agreeing with them isn’t the same thing, especially when you don’t bother backing it up with evidence.
~Huntress
Rob, what exactly was taken out of context? Huntress has her arrows pointed at you like a deer in headlights. You are dead in the water my friend. Try a different track next time.
Ive been vegetarian for about 10 years, I eat my pet chickens their eggs though. I agree that higher fat is good. I tried high carb for a while but it screwed up my menstruation, I lost too much weight, my skin became very dry, and other weird shit… I now eat more fat and I am very healthy. I don’t eat gluten and mostly eat vegetables, lentils, beans, some rice, buckwheat, and lately more fat like coconut oil, coconut milk, avocado, eggyolks… My skin improved dramatically. Because I had been low fat for years before that. At first i thought low fat was the way to go, but it isn’t.
I don’t need or eat meat though, I am a vegetarian not for health reasons but for the love for animals
My own chickens are treated like kings and queens.
You had me until the bit about losing muscle in a week… not possible! I weight train regularly… maintain a pesca vegan diet sometimes going a couple of weeks without fish. Never have I lost muscle mass in a week’s time!
Look, I love animals so several years ago I switched to a veggo diet because I hated the industrial treatment of animals AND I wanted to be pretty & slim. Problem was this – I got REALLY dangerously depressed. Didnt really link it to my diet. 20 years later I’m diagnosed with bi polar 1 by top clinical asessors here in Oz – Black Dog Institute- so I dont say this cause I wanna have the latest “hip” illness. Faced with a lifetime of scary -ass meds I started to take responsibility & see what I could do to fight this illness. So I found out about the epilepsy John Hopkins ketogenic zero to low carb HIGH fat diet. Then I found out about paleo which was great as I was already a social ecology grad & permaculturist. So I became an urban farmer. Point is PLEASE TELL ME VEGANS: How do I get the cholesterol, the omega 3′s & other amino acids my brain needs to not be crazy? How do I get ketones beyond my blood brain barrier to flood my neural cells with necessary protons? I MUST eat fat. I MUST eat meat. It MUST be organic or at least pasture fed. Thank you well meaning vegans for imposing a lifetime sentence of misery & agony for me family & friends by starving me of the nutrients I must have & keeping me crazy. Please do tell how I stay in dietary ketosis on a vegan diet & I will start up my own chapter of PETA right here in sydney. I dont want to kill anything, but as I always say – study the food chain & you’ll realise that in the end everyone of us is just someone (or thing) else’s lunch.
I was a vegan for a year and a half. I was raw vegan for ten months. I have never been hungrier or more miserable. I needed to lose about 50 lbs – was quite overweight. In that year and a half of veganism, I lost maybe 10 lbs. I was sick to my stomach and starving almost constantly. Like many vegans, due to blood sugar fluctuations from their carb-rich diets, I ate every couple hours. At least.
Of course every time I told any other raw fooders I was miserable I was told I was doing it wrong. Even when following every “rule” of food combining, meal timing, etc., I remained constantly hungry. Every few weeks, I would cave in to my cravings, go to Whole Foods and buy a block of unpasteurized cheese and just sit there and stuff my face with cheese and nuts and avocadoes. And I would feel so much better, immediately. And I felt so guilty for it.
I was told I needed to “detox,” that I still had toxins from animals in my system making me hungry, so I did a 2 week cleanse. Still starving all the time. So I decided maybe I needed to be a fruitarian, and I did that for a week, until I literally could not even muster the energy to drive my car home from work. That’s when I realized this was wroooong.
True, what works for one person may not for another, and vice versa. But I’ve never in real life met a vegan who was muscular and healthy-looking. Yes, they are often thin, but they are “skinny flabby.” I worked with a vegan who was thin and pretty at first glance, but if you looked at her arms and legs she had no muscle tone whatsoever.
Being vegan effed me up. I think it exacerbated my insulin resistance and metabolic syndrome. I wish I’d never done it. I have a friend who is constantly vegan proselytizing on FB and it just makes me angry. She’s encouraging people to do something that I know for a FACT is not the beautiful sunshiney answer to good health for all humans. But if you say that you’re just a dumb indoctrinated toxin-soaked unethical animal-murderer who didn’t do veganism “right.” Over it.
Don’t know how you survived that trip without hitting someone in the face. With a roast. Or sneaking into the kitchen and destroying all the bread.
I read Mark’s story of the vegetarian vacation, and while it re-enforced the fact that I will always eat meat, fish, and fowl, I was more surprised by the vast number of comments by Vegans & vegetarians. If Mark’s lifestyle is so abhorrent, unethical, unhealthy and unsustainable, I cannot understand why you are visiting Mark’s Daily Apple?
Huntress, To your remark , “Extra carbohydrate is stored as fat preferentially over fat and protein”. Look again—- I believe you missed the main idea so to clarify the point I have quoted the text ( see below) . As to your remark as to the publishing company, let’s not waste time on that point clearly it has been sold in mass, nationally and internationally. So who cares who published it. Publishing is about distribution and cutting the right deal.
While most of the book is based on peer review, their are other factors that do come into play. While food is the main building block here what has not been discussed is how safe are the foods we consume? So let’s not bicker but enhance our information transfer. Rice is tainted with Arsenic : see links beloehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/29/leafy-greens-food-poisoning_n_2573905.html?utm_hp_ref=food-safety
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/arsenic1112.htm
And most organic consumers who are buying Organic need to read the country of origin. Strawberries from Mexico labeled organic, frozen organic fruit found in many health food stores like Whole Foods are from Chile etc. Standards there are not the same as they are in California .The meat, dairy, and fish industry foods are a bazillion times worse. Drinking water is another story. Very few know how to be safe and reduce the risk of health issues from what they put in their mouth. You want to make this blog block buster beneficial, cover those those topics as citizens who are aware or comply with this information as few as 1%.
The authors of the China study first defined simple and complex carbohydrates. They express the simple fact that if you eat more processed carbs like flours, breads chips sugars etc fat will happens. Plenty of fat vegans and vegetarians out there. AKA as weapons of ass destruction..
Also the writers conveyed” Consuming diets HIGH in protein and FAT transfers calories away from their conversion into body heat to their storage form-as body fat
( unless severe calorie restrictions is causing weight loss).” “Chinese consume more calories both because they are physically active and because their consumption of LOW-fat, LOW protein diets shifts conversion of these calories away from body fat to the body heat.”
Gasry,
For the sake of continuity, it wold be helpful if you kept your comment in the thread it is a part of. If you’d like to move it there, I’ll certainly respond.
Gary,
I find Mark’s mail notifications don’t always take you to the correct comment- but we were conversing on Page #1. We are in a thread that has no more individual comment replies available, so just scroll up to the next up-comment above ours with a reply-button (at the lower right hand corner). Your comments will appear in order if you do that.
~Huntress
You lost a few pounds of hard earned muscle in one week?
You had me going until then….
You didn’t lose any muscle in one week… eating their junk.
And you make it sound like they can’t get protein if they get rid of some of their junk and eat whole foods?
Surely you jest?
Do I believe/feel/agree that animal proteins are essential?
Yes… but not every day… and a week or a month hiatus is not going to make much difference.
I bought the whole Dr John McDougall’s 12 Days to Dynamic Health years ago (12 Days Book, Cookbook, another book, cassette tapes, VHS). I followed it religiously but it made me feel like crap. I did try another promising vegetarian diet later but that too had the same negative results. At first I felt great but then I felt like crap again where my energy was zapped. I tried Protein Power diet and it had exceptional results. It practically cured my acid reflux problem but McDougall’s diet did not. My blood pressure dropped more on the Protein Power diet than McDougall’s. My doctor did a blood test on me and told me to quit McDougall’s diet because my triglycerides sky rocketed but it did a huge nose dive on the Protein Power diet (it is a good diet but I call it the constipation diet). I am no longer on Protein Power diet but I now do a diet that is loaded with fruits and veggies but also meat (sardines, chicken). I believe our bodies are wired differently. I do not believe one diet suits all and that seems to be recognized by many these days. Some really benefit from a vegetarian diet but I am not one of those people.
I agree with you! Great and balanced commentary on biologically and chemically healthy eating—especially where healthy muscle development and maintenance is concerned—a very important principle especially as we age—think sarcopenia!
I was a miserable vegetarian for about five years, and when I came out of it, I ate a whole chicken!! Yikes, that’s not a smart thing to do—but I craved some protein. Seriously, I believe we need some lean meat, not much, or at the least some grass fed whey protein for Pete’e sake.
I would add that I believe there is some scientific credence to the blood type theory, and that those of the blood type A persuasion do the best with lots of HEALTHY carbs, and less meat(s) and dairy. Myself being type B, I thrive on grass-fed dairy—raw milk, yogurt, kefir and butter, and some grass-fed beef and wild caught fish. Yum. Avoid anything pasteurized and homogenized. Google Weston A Price (Foundation) and/or Jordan Rubin (Beyond Organic). Get to know your blood type and observe how your body responds to certain food groups—we should feel energized and alert after eating food, and not drained and achy. (think gluten-free, too, if you eat carbs) I am a Dietitian and CNHP, and believe people need to educate themselves on nutrition and foods—it’s all online for the asking, but stay balanced–veganism is awfully extreme—need to watch B12 levels especially.
Well, that’s my take.
I’ve spent almost an hour reading all that I can from this site, I appreciate the time you’ve taken to explain the science behind everything, but you’ve also added a human side by not encouraging us all to strive to be perfect. I’m also loving the information regarding grains & vegan diets – thank you, thank you, thank you. I’m quite sick of being preached to about the benefits of living vegan!
Cheers,
Genevieve
Weston Price was also pro-grain, and LOTS of it. The Swiss had more dental caries than grain-free cultures, but they didn’t have many compared to those eating “modern foods”. They didn’t have anything LIKE what we have today.
Ah ha ha ha hah! And I have this bridge in Brooklyn I’m looking to sell. Ahem.
I’m curious Ted, do you KNOW what forum you’re in?
Hold me close, tiny dancer!
I do not like to be an avatar judge, but he looks like a fat asian.
I grew up in a cross hispanic/white/asian community, and from what i have seen, fat first off the boat asians do not get fat unless they eat a SAD diet.
If you are Samoan, I apologize. (See “Pulp Fiction” reference).
I should like to point out that there seems to be a strong connection between how close you live to the equator, and the state of your teeth. You know, lots of sun = high Vit D production = good calcium retention. I never cease to be amazed by the beauty of the immigrants’ teeth I see here! And, yes, they most certainly do eat grain. I see them buying their traditional foods in their grocery stores, where I shop, too. Giant bags of millet, wheat flour, teff, rice, etc. Not to mention legumes. Of course, some of them know to ferment these foods, but likely not all.
Of course, after a generation or so here in the more northerly latitudes, unless they take vitamin D, these dark people’s teeth, bones and general health will of course decline. The dept. of health reminds them to do this from what I heard on the news.
Re the Swiss and other European tribes, isn’t it obvious that over the generations they instinctively craved dairy products to balance out the acidity and anti-mineral factors in the grain. The Africans fermented their grains and the Europeans developed cow- or goat-milking. Ah, what a strange world…
None of the above developed or happened over one or two years. It took aeons.
While I’m here – would the no-cavities state of anyone’s teeth be the only indicator of very good health? There are white European people who have no cavities, never have (I know some such folks), but do have gum disease. It appears to be an either/or thing for the most part, but there are exceptions.
I like these discussions, it’s all grist for the mill and sometimes one learns something.
Wyandotte,
While I understand that their teeth appear healthy, I don’t believe they necessarily are. For example, Ecuador has one of the highest rates of dental disease/decay in the world, and you can’t get much closer to the equator. (http://www.mah.se/CAPP/Country-Oral-Health-Profiles/According-to-Alphabetical/CountryArea-E/)
Even Weston Price found that the cultures eating the most grains (the Swiss) had the highest levels of decay, even among those still eating their ancestral diets. I do actually believe that nutrient density is the key to healthy teeth, but the reason preparing grains ancestrally doesn’t make all that much difference to us today is because the remainder of our diets isn’t nearly as nutrient dense. Soil depletion and our farming methods (including what we feed our food animals) makes for less nutritious food- meaning we have to be more diligent about getting the maximum nutrition in for every calorie. We cannot afford to have those foods displaced by grains (which never have contained much nutrition).
~Huntress
Pardon the errors but spelling and grammar didn’t even exist a few hundred years age hahah.
Pardon the errors but spelling and grammar didn’t even exist a few hundred years ago hahahah. now starve.