Marks Daily Apple
Serving up health and fitness insights (daily, of course) with a side of irreverence.
22 May

My Escape from Vegan Island

Every once in a while, I am alternately stunned and amused by what I see being promoted in the name of good health. I had one of those “stunningly amusing” episodes when I took an eight-day vacation with my family to an all-vegetarian health and adventure retreat in Costa Rica several months ago. We had joined a group of 125 headed by Dr. John McDougall, an accomplished and well-respected physician who uses a strict vegetarian/vegan lifestyle to address disease states in his patients and (ostensibly) to promote better health among the general population. I wasn’t too keen on attending, strict carnivore that I am, but I’m always up for an experiment of one and, moreover, I was convinced by my mostly-vegetarian wife and her vegan parents that our extended family would enjoy a nice tropical vacation together. And the food promised to be so yummy… so I made the leap with my wife, two kids, the in-laws and some cousins.

Beautiful Costa Rica

First off, I must say, I did have a very enjoyable time in Costa Rica with my family, rafting, diving, zip lining and hiking…but after what I witnessed during my stay, I can assure you that I have never been so certain that the Primal Blueprint way of eating – which I have embraced for over 30 years now – is the best way to achieve and maintain excellent health. Frankly, I was appalled at both the information being disseminated during this event and at what I saw being served at every meal in the name of “health food.”

I am an omnivore and always have been. Carrie, my wife, was a vegetarian for fifteen years until I convinced her about five years ago to starting adding fish to her diet to get more protein. She still considers herself, in the words of the Outback Steakhouse guy, a “semi-veg.” My wife’s parents have been strict vegans for nearly thirty years and are ardent followers of Dr. McDougall. McDougall’s own story involves having had a severe stroke at age 19 from which, at 59, he still limps. He became an MD and eventually realized that diet was an important part of the health equation. He’s a very likable and charming guy. I had a few superficial discussions with him, even attended a few of his nightly lectures. His heart is certainly in the right place, but I fear he is leading people down a wholly inappropriate dietary path. At the risk of oversimplifying, the basis of his program is that almost all starch is good, all fat is bad and meat of any kind is deadly. It is, in his words, a “starch-based” diet, high in grains and legumes.

The attendees were generally divided into two groups: those who were fairly new to the program – many of them had some serious weight to lose – and those who had been on the McDougall program for several years. Many of the latter group, I gathered, had come to McDougall originally with one or more chronic diseases and on multiple medications. Each evening, after the adventure activity of the day (all of which were pretty sedate), Dr. McDougall would deliver a lecture intended to inform the group of the evils of traditional medicine and big pharma – much of which I generally agree with – and to demonize beef, pork, chicken, fish, dairy of all kinds and most forms of soy. I got the general gist after the first evening. He’s not a fan of supplements either. But he does imply that when you eat vegetarian, you can have all you want…and therein lay the source of much amusement for me.

The lecture would adjourn and everyone would line up for the buffet line which would, at virtually every meal, include copious amounts of breads and rolls, rice, potatoes, pasta, beans, some anemic-looking steamed vegetables and a romaine-only lettuce salad. No dressings allowed. The only fat I could see was in the guacamole that served as a spread. The desert table had a variety of fruits and at least two choices of so-called “healthy” cakes. The drinks were generally overly sweetened fruit drinks.

Now I’m not one to judge. Okay, I am, but I usually keep my mouth shut – except herein. I watched at every meal as overweight, unhealthy people piled their plates with at least two pounds of bread, pasta, rice, potatoes, beans, desert cake, and a glass of fruit juice. Sometimes they went back for more. By my calculations these people were consuming 200 to 300 or more grams of (mostly simple) carbohydrates at each of three meals. There was no way these folks were going to lose fat on this trip. It was, in my view, a type 2 diabetes epidemic in-the-making.

In fending for myself, I focused mainly on the salads and the black beans mixed with a little rice. As you regular readers know, I don’t “do” breads, potatoes, pasta, desserts or fruit drinks. I think they are unhealthy. Go figure. I have to say, it sure got old after a day or two.


This is Kina’s Flickr Photo

Of those who had already been on the McDougall program for years, I had the following general observation: they don’t look too healthy. People who subsist on grains and simple carbs at the expense of quality protein for any length of time tend to lose muscle mass, regardless of their exercise regimen. They are what we call “skinny fat“. Essentially, they have no lean tissue and yet they have surprisingly high body fat levels, despite their loose “skin and bones” appearance. Lean body mass is a major defining criterion of good health; and these folks were sorely lacking. Excess carbohydrate turns to fat pretty easily, but you can neither build nor preserve muscle with it. Herein lies the confusion for many folks: while glucose serves as short-term fuel for muscles, it does not build nor maintain them. One woman, a 62-year old triathlete who trains hours a day and competes almost every weekend authoritatively suggested that I was a fool to eat meat and that I should embrace the McDougall program as she had for 15 years. Problem was, she looked like hell. No muscle tone at all and, I suspect, a fairly high body fat for someone who fancied herself an athlete. It took all I had to keep from saying something that might have spoiled her trip!

As with any diet regimen, Dr. McDougall backs his theories up with studies. But that’s the biggest problem with the “science” of nutrition: anyone can find a study here or there that supports almost any premise. To wit: Fish is great because it’s a source of important Omega 3 fats, but fish is bad because it’s a source of toxic heavy metals, but fish is great because the heavy metals are not actually present at realistically dangerous levels, but fish is bad because the fish lobby was the one funding the study on relative safety, and on ad infinitum.

If there were a right answer, everyone would be doing it. I guess the best any of us can do is to align the “receptivity filters” in our brains with our current belief systems and create habits that reinforce those beliefs – and that, hopefully, result in healthy bodies and minds. Ultimately, I have chosen to believe that we were programmed to eat primarily small portions of meat and vegetables, with a little fruit thrown in occasionally. It works for me (53 years old, 5’10” 165 lbs and 8% body fat).

Life's a beach!

Problem is, if you have no understanding of biology or chemistry, you can easily fall for that old vegan argument that meat is bad (notwithstanding the fact that there has never, in the entire history of man, been a country, culture or race that subsisted entirely on vegetables without animal flesh of some kind). Many people do fall for it. They also fall for the old “protein leaches calcium” argument, completely ignoring the fact that bones require protein as well as weight bearing activity to promote bone density and prevent osteoporosis. Or that stress has a far greater impact on preventing absorption of calcium than excess protein in the diet. But here I am giving you my opinion again and it’s only based on studies that my filters have shown align with my own beliefs…

I was fascinated by what I saw to be the complete antithesis of a healthy diet being offered up as the healthiest way to eat. And by people willing to accept that they could eat all they want of this high-carb fare and regain their lost health in the process. Try as I might, I couldn’t avoid losing a few pounds of hard-fought muscle myself over the week. Luckily, I was able to regain homeostasis shortly after returning home. And ultimately, I was left with a confidence that following Primal Blueprint path is exactly what humans were designed to do.

What are your thoughts on vegetarianism, carbohydrates, and protein?

Be sure to stick around for today’s Tuesday 10.

Best of MDA

(This piece was originally posted at my friend Art DeVany’s blog.)

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You want comments? We got comments:

Imagine you’re George Clooney. Take a moment to admire your grooming and wit. Okay, now imagine someone walks up to you and asks, “What’s your name?” You say, “I’m George Clooney.” Or maybe you say, “I’m the Clooninator!” You don’t say “I’m George of George Clooney Sells Movies Blog” and you certainly don’t say, “I’m Clooney Weight Loss Plan”. So while spam is technically meat, it ain’t anywhere near Primal. Please nickname yourself something your friends would call you.

  1. lolwut.

    Your paleo/primal troll blog entry was entertaining to read but also complete and utter bullshit.

    I think you should probably tell Robert Cheeke and Billy Symonds that you can’t build and maintain muscle mass exclusively on plant protein.

    You talk the same paleo bullshit that every other fool on the interwebz is saying.

    A high carb, low fat vegan diet is how every one should live.

    Chris Ripley wrote on November 6th, 2011
    • Chris….a high carb, low fat vegan diet is how you’re gonna die.

      Xfingxfing wrote on January 3rd, 2013
  2. I think you should stop thinking you know everything and let other people eat the way they like.

    Cassie wrote on November 10th, 2011
  3. Have you noticed how most of the angry, insulting posts on this thread are from vegans? I’ve seen simliar dismissive posts by carnivores, but they are usually more of the “meat is good because I say it’s good” variety than the “meat is bad because it will kill you/hurts animals/destroys the planet/you are stupid for even thinking about eating it” mantra that most vegans have.

    Extremist points of view are a waste of time and space. I prefer a happy medium approach. I consider myself a vegophile omnivore – a meat eater with an even greater love of vegetables and fruits. I am not vegetarian, but I often eat vegetarian and vegan meals because I feel like it. I also like burgers, turkey, cheese, yogurt, milk and eggs. But if I had to go a day without greens, I’d really be upset. IMHO, fresh, wholesome, unprocessed and pesticide-free foods are the best. Eating right is a daily struggle with multiple conflicting viewpoints. I’m still trying to figure it all out. But I do NOT want to get yelled at by anyone. Thanks for your blog and informative posts.

    Ellie wrote on November 16th, 2011
  4. “I focused mainly on the salads and the black beans mixed with a little rice”

    “Try as I might, I couldn’t avoid losing a few pounds of hard-fought muscle myself over the week”

    Maybe you were not getting enough protein simply because you were not eating enough food due to your fear of consuming too much carbohydrates? You said you ate salads, black beans, and rice, but how much of each did you eat?

    Peter wrote on November 19th, 2011
  5. “One woman, a 62-year old triathlete who trains hours a day and competes almost every weekend authoritatively suggested that I was a fool to eat meat and that I should embrace the McDougall program as she had for 15 years. Problem was, she looked like hell. No muscle tone at all and, I suspect, a fairly high body fat for someone who fancied herself an athlete. It took all I had to keep from saying something that might have spoiled her trip!”

    Let’s say that this lady did not get enough protein, which is why she has poor muscle tone. According to you, she trains and competes very frequently, yet she still has high body-fat? Even if she did not have enough protein, with all the exercise she had, why would she still have high body-fat even if she ate a lot of carbohydrates? Wouldn’t it all have been burned away?

    Were there other factors causing the lady’s poor muscle tone besides not eating meat? Even if you ate a lot of carbohydrates from grains and legumes, you would also have consumed a lot of protein considering if grains and legumes were the base of your diet. Maybe she still had some sort of fear of becoming fat by eating “too much” which is why she did not get enough protein? That may have caused her to eat too little for her activity level.

    Peter wrote on November 19th, 2011
  6. I’m 35 years old, male, 5’10”, and 145 lbs and have been vegan for 20 years. Vegan = vegan. No cheating with cheese or anything else. Ever. Veggies, grains, legumes, and fruit figure in heavily. Added sugar is out, and I eat very little flour. I have pasta and tortillas sometimes, but only the whole-grain options. I eat a fair amount of oil… don’t know exactly how much. Calories, about 2,500 a day. Exercise, maybe 3 days a week, aerobic, 1 to 2 hours. Desk job. No supplements, but some of the stuff I eat is fortified with B vitamins.

    Anyway, you dietarily savvy ones out there: describe my maladies. With the information I’ve provided, you should have a fair idea of the ways I should be suffering. The direct consequences of my diet-lifestyle, whatever they are, have had plenty of time to settle in. Let’s see how good you are. 😉

    oynk wrote on November 24th, 2011
  7. The carnivores here are very ignorant and misinformed. How about you guys learn biochemistry before spewing your garbage? I am a 3rd year medical school student, and from all the knowledge I’ve accumulated of how the body functions and processes food, I can not find even ONE argument to go against the vegan or vegetarian lifestyle.
    I am 24 years old; I have been a vegetarian since I was 15 years old, and a vegan since I was 20. I am in perfect health. At 5’7″, I am 137 lbs. I am a size 2 in pants with 32-23-35 measurements. Most people assume that I weigh 110-115 lbs, not almost 140, because I am so thin. However, despite being so tiny, I am heavier than I look because I am muscular. My legs are very toned, I have a six-pack, and I am physically very fit, sculpted, and strong. I am not “skinny fat” at all.

    While simple carbohydrates are bad for the human body, complex carbohydrates that are high in fiber (and protein!) are the best foods available for human consumption.

    It is also true that vegans CAN eat larger portions than carnivores, because low fat foods are very low in calories; therefore a larger amount of food is needed to match the caloric intake of meat. This is a *good* thing because carnivores have to eat smaller portions to maintain their weight, while never feeling “full” or satisfied. I remember how it was when I ate meat; I never truly felt fulfilled. Plant foods are also high in fiber which causes the body to feel full.

    A vegan diet IS healthier, and that is not an opinion; it is a fact.

    Mar wrote on November 26th, 2011
    • “The carnivores here are very ignorant and misinformed.”

      The hyperbolic 3rd year med student vegan should know we’re not carnivores; we’re omnivores. Just because we favor meat and fat doesn’t mean we don’t eat our veggies!

      “I can not find even ONE argument to go against the vegan or vegetarian lifestyle.”

      Two words: B12 shots.

      Christina Pirello has a great story about how lack of B12 almost killed her!

      “This is a *good* thing because carnivores have to eat smaller portions to maintain their weight, while never feeling “full” or satisfied.”

      That is an opinion, not a fact. I felt starved the entire time I was on a vegan diet. I felt full when I started eating primal.

      Fiber didn’t do anything for me except make me very, very regular. Uncomfortably so. Sorry.

      “A vegan diet IS healthier, and that is not an opinion; it is a fact.”

      Please cite your “facts”. Please be sure to include examples of at least one fully vegan culture that has thrived over multiple generations. Your coop doesn’t count.

      Okay, now I’ll be nice: A vegan diet IS probably healthier than the industrialized world’s diet, providing you are talking about someone who is getting most of their meals from boxes, bags, and cans. Yes. Eating a whole foods vegan diet is probably healthier than that. It doesn’t change the fact that, as a vegan, you are going to be deficient in certain rather important vitamins and minerals and would benefit from the occasional inclusion of meat and fat in your diet. Yes, you can supplement, but you can’t get B12 without milking an animal for it somehow. You might want to consider oysters; some vegans actually think they’re the perfect guilt-free, sustainable meat. (Do some googling if you don’t believe me.)

      Also, exactly where and when did the Vegan Police decide their diet had to be low fat? That’s just silly. Eat some nuts or something, you silly low-fat vegan. Put down the pasta. And good luck. You’re 24, so you’re probably still healthy. I hope you stay that way.

      Steph wrote on November 26th, 2011
    • Feeling “satiated” or “full” is not due to the volume of your intake.

      otherwise, we could solve the problem of obesity by telling them to drink only water.

      vegan food only makes me feel “bloated” & (due to the sheer volume i have to eat) yet i don’t feel “satisfied”. + i’d feel _cold_ all the time. + i get hungry too easily. i just hate to have to eat every few hours & having wear gloves & socks in summer.

      I agree with Melissa (of hunter gather love blog) that as far as i’m concerned, vegetables & fruits are NOT REAL FOOD.

      real food has to be nourishing, also fuels & warms me up.

      vegetables & fruits do none of the above (for me). but i do eat them (& a fair amount) as dessert (provides colors & textures) also for the medicinal purposes.

      i think a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet could be healthy tho.


      PHK wrote on November 28th, 2011
    • Name ONE traditional vegan culture or society.

      Michael Cohen wrote on December 12th, 2011
      • I don’t know, but I’m guessing none.

        Now, answer my question. Come on, ladies and gentlemen. This thread has four pages of “this will happen,” “that will happen,” and “those are irrefutable biological consequences.” All I ask is that you venture to tell me what maladies I must surely be suffering as a result of having maintained one of the strictest vegan diets imaginable for the last 20 years without breaking from it for a single day. The way you people are talking, I would think that would be a piece of cake.

        One fella suggested my veins might be thin like rice paper. OK then. I’ll check into that and get back to you. But is that all you can come up with? Don’t chicken out just because you’re being faced with the opportunity to test your speculative hypotheses.

        oynk wrote on December 12th, 2011
        • I think you are suffering from a condition known as insufferableness. No need to check for symptoms; we have all the evidence we need.

          mikehell wrote on December 12th, 2011
        • That’s your answer, mikehell: no physiological maladies, just the insufferable disposition of one who calls armchair theories and politicized conventional wisdom to the test.

          I need someone who can really put their money where their mouth is, someone with a little less b-a-a-a-a and a little more oomph. Someone who’s brave enough not to hide behind snark and the myopic “I can’t diagnose you” excuse, as if I even mentioned the idea of official diagnosis.

          I can promise you one thing: absolute honesty.

          oynk wrote on December 13th, 2011
        • Well oynk, if we can have your complete medical records for the past 20 years then we could verify the claims you’re beating your likely atrophied little chest about.

          Like anything else being thrown out here, prove it with facts instead of challenging people to disprove your assertions regarding your physical state, which again unless we had your complete medical history we could not do.

          You know this, that’s why you or any slob can claim to be anything through this medium.

          Xfingxfing wrote on January 3rd, 2013
      • “Name ONE traditional vegan culture or society”

        – the Village People!

        …or did the biker guy get a little meat on the side?

        Xfingxfing wrote on January 3rd, 2013
  8. Mar, what study are you basing your opinion on? Why is an organic vegan diet healthier than a balanced, organic omnivore diet?

    Since you claim you’re basing your assessment on fact not opinion: which study, from what university are you basing this on?

    Daniel Winter wrote on November 27th, 2011
  9. Good post, Mark. Wow, a lot of bile in the comments. Eat how your body feels best, folks! I tried vegetarianism, low fat/high carb, heavy on the whole grains, and other ways of eating. The whole grains kick nearly killed me. Turns out I’m Celiac and also don’t tolerate most other grains and grasses, some legumes, dairy, or soy. I was nearly paleo already, so figured what the heck, and my body feels so good now. My food nourishes me; I eat less; my skin and hair look great; my mind is clear. For my system, paleo is good.

    Katherine wrote on November 27th, 2011
  10. Anyone who wants to take a break from armchair speculation and philosophizing: let’s get our head out of the clouds and dig our heels into the ground.

    Read my post above.

    Further details: besides being a strict vegan for 20 years, I have not taken any kind of vitamin supplement pill, injection, or anything of the like in over 6 years. As I said, some of the stuff I consume is vitamin fortified, but my intake of that stuff is haphazard.

    My point, as you may ask, is this: apply your knowledge of the pros and cons of the vegan diet to tell me how I’m suffering. What happens after 20 years of strict veganism? How about after 6 years of no vitamin pills?

    Don’t be afraid to chime in. I’m giving you a chance to put your money where your mouth is.

    oynk wrote on November 28th, 2011
    • Well, Christina Pirello thought she was healthy, too, until her serious medical emergency.

      I’m not diagnosing you, how can anyone do that over the internet. I’m not a fan of meat centered diets at all and in fact don’t eat any. But I feel a need for a bit of dairy & eggs and a bit of fish too. I also supplement in a sporadic way. If I wanted meat, I’d eat it but I don’t think I’ll ever develop a craving because I’ve seen animals slaughtered and it just makes me ill.

      So, how do you know that YOUR veins aren’t “thin as rice paper” like Ms. Pirello’s were?

      Wyandotte wrote on November 28th, 2011
      • I don’t. Did you determine that yours were not?

        Perhaps I should check into that. Meantime: I’ve been exercising strenuously for the twenty years that I’ve been a vegan. If my veins are thin like rice paper, how many more years will it take for all that physical stress to produce some noticeable consequence? Another twenty? Forty?

        oynk wrote on December 12th, 2011
        • Here I write, roughly one year later from this post. As someone who has read MDA daily since late winter/early spring 2012, I do not recognize oynk’s name in recent forum posts. I’m curious if oynk is out there and if his views have changed or not. Clearly he has passion.

          Paleo Bon Rurgundy wrote on December 23rd, 2012
        • Would like to read more of your insights Ron, aside from me you’re the coolest person here.

          Xfingxfing wrote on January 4th, 2013
        • Oops, sorry…bad eyesight from eating too much red meat and not enough carrots, Bon as in Bon Rurgundy, not Ron.

          Xfingxfing wrote on January 4th, 2013
  11. Most of the mammals you eat don’t eat meat and don’t drink the milk of other species. They along with the great apes and gorillas that are stronger than even you
    don’t seem to have a problem getting enough protein.

    errol lee fullen wrote on November 28th, 2011
    • The digestive mechanism of “non meat eating mammals” is primarily fermentation. It is a completely different mechanism than human disestion. The concentrated nutrients in the red meat of runimants is what allowed us to become modern humans

      Michael Cohen wrote on December 16th, 2011
  12. I think my body released some insulin just from reading this post

    Vegans that eat 900 grams of grains per day – a recipe to cancer, diabetes and obesity…

    Aaron wrote on December 3rd, 2011
  13. On perceived differences between plants and animals as it relates to killing/eating them:

    The differences named – sentience, pain, fear – are of no consequence if we’re talking simply about the killing of an animal with no mention of the method. For all we know, the animal’s sentience does not “come into play”, so to speak. For instance, if it were sleeping and given an injection it could not feel which killed it painlessly. The fact that it can feel pain sometimes makes no difference in this situation.

    Indeed, using pain as a reason not to kill something isn’t sufficient. It’s only a sufficient reason not to *hurt* something. If pain were the reason not to kill something, it naturally follows that causing no pain is no problem.

    An animal’s sentience is a complicated subject and I think it’s an arbitrarily drawn line. Personally, I believe human beings have value because they are capable of deep thoughts. They are at the very least much *more* capable than an animal to live a ‘meaningful’ life. In fact, from where I currently stand, I can say that if I were to endure some terrible accident and as a result was reduced to the mental capacity of animal, I would hope my family would pull the plug on me. I see no value in that existence. That is unless animals have MUCH deeper thoughts than I perceive them to.

    Joe wrote on December 3rd, 2011
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  15. After listening to some or Dr McDougall’s talks I have to conclude that he is literally insane

    Michael Cohen wrote on December 12th, 2011
    • I HAVE read his books. I have four of them. He completely cherry picks his studies, completely ignoring the “inconvenient ones”. This type of diet is suited to very few people and is self selecting in a way. You dont hear about the failures, or about the people who try it and can only tolerate it for a few days. His ideas that fat is the culprit in many chronic diseases are insane. His ideas about cholesterol levels and its role as the cause in chronic disease are insane. The idea than man is best suited to a vegan high starch is insane. Most of people eating a diet so high in starches will produce a large amount VLDL particles that have been implicated in heart disease. If a vegan diet were anyway viable or proper to humans we would see examples of vegan diets in traditional cultures. Name ONE. Grains and legumes are a very new addition to the human diet. They contain an enormous amount of anti-nutrients. It has been pointed out that as we age we lose the little tolerance we have for “the products of agriculture”and “diseases of civilization” result. Traditional hunter gatherers like the Inuit, Polynesians and plains Native Americans have absolutely no tolerance for agriculture and degenerate rapidly when its products are introduced into their diets. In my youth I was a macrobiotic vegan. I continued to get most of my calories from whole grains and legumes until I was about 60. I avoided all processed foods especially sugar and vegetable oils. My job required me to walk 2-5 miles daily. I found myself 40 lbs overweight, with debilitating GERD and arthritis. My triglycerides were high and cholesterol ratios bad. I decided to eliminate all animal products to improve things and things got worse. When I eliminated all grains,legumes and most carbs from my diet,and added more fat and animal products, the GERD went away in two days, the arthritis in ten. I lost over twenty lbs in two months, without effort or over exercising

      Michael Cohen wrote on December 19th, 2011
    • And figuratively

      Xfingxfing wrote on January 4th, 2013
  16. I have really enjoyed reading this entire thread. It has meshed nicely with the ambivalence I have over first doing an elimination diet (due to the hassle mostly and the inconclusive results when I added food in) and then now I am in the throes of doing the mcdougall dance as a 6 month trial for shits and grins. the drmickiedoo website is hard to stomach becuase it feels fanatical like a cult. it reminds me of grammar school retreats where they put a plant (no pun intended) in the room so you wouldn’t stray from the dominant faith tradition, or in this case, the dominant food eating tradition. it’s patriachial. daddy knows best. and there’s a lot of daddies…including kingly dietician, along with the good intentione doc. there is little free exchange of ideas. and like the tops fat farms that have the queen and kings of the day they have these anachronistic throwback star people that once consumed nothing but snickers bars and lived in lazee boy recliners waxing on 25 years segue now to farting beans and twigs. it’s this kind of manic sway sides beliefs that make a lot of consumers want to give all docs the finger. i don’t want to hold a rib cage in my hand daily and naw and I am equally tiring or smelling sulphur pouring out of my fridge and cupboard.

    and most of all i want to find a group of persons that does not believe in absolutes and have websites with such and such is not allowed. oh yeah, i’ll put my dunce cap on and sit in the corner with the not allowed sign on my chest.

    just because this dude got caught in a formative period hanging with fat folks who no longer ate brown rice 24 hours a day did that have to turn him into a fanatic.

    let’s drink the cool aid now or later?

    i have modified my mickiedougalling experiment as of this week with eggs and eggbeaters. i have not started to levitate, yet. I’ll let you all know when I do.


    harry2 wrote on December 17th, 2011
  17. A “Star McDougaller” posted her before and after pictures on Dr. McDougall’s website. While she was big in the before, she looked healthy and youthful. In her after picture she looks 20 years older and flabby skin and bones! Yet everyone’s replying, “You look great!”

    I tried the McDougall eating plan and I couldn’t do it. Not only is it boring but it left me sooooo tired and depressed, I had zero energy. I mean ZERO. Not to mention that I never felt full eating mostly starches. I at copious amounts and was still hungry.

    And don’t even get me started on all the poop problems. OMG I had to keep running to the bathroom to poop several times a day!! It was diarrhea. All that fiber. Awful. Too much of anything is not good.

    Peter wrote on December 19th, 2011
    • Lies.

      Ricky wrote on December 29th, 2011
  18. Macau and Spain. What do they have in common? Longevity of its citizens. Spain has the longest life span in all of Europe or the West for that matter at 82 years and Macau beat the rest of the world at 85 years. Spain has the highest pork consumption per capita of any country on Earth while Macauans enjoy a truly omnivorous feast that includes, again, lots of pork as well beef and fish. Man from the get go evolved to omnivorous. We have canines but more significantly unlike true herbivores, we can’t digest cellulose.

    Tim Naylor wrote on January 5th, 2012
    • What is the seafood “pork equivalent”? I’m taking an educated guess that it is lobster.

      Paleo Bon Rurgundy wrote on December 23rd, 2012
    • Longevity can also be observed in cultures that eat Horse meat, even better for you than Pork or Beef!

      Xfingxfing wrote on January 3rd, 2013
  19. You know, after years of seective breeding, cows, chickens, etc. have changed genetically.Like it or not, all those thousands of years of selective breeding have made farm animals as dependant on us as we are on them. They are not fit to live in the wild or be pets. If you had a cow, you would have to milk it all the time, because they get sick if they don’t get milked, & if they feed all the milk to calves, the calves get diareah because cows produce so much milk. I know because my grandparents owned a ranch in Mexico, & no hormones or drugs. So veganism actually hurts cows. Just drink milk not from cow torturing places. Trust me, not all farms torture animals. But too many veggs are under the illusion that animals are tortured at all farms,& no, just factory farms.(Evil, yes, factory farms are evil) And for those of you who say that humans are not meant to eat meat because we have no “claws” & “Fangs”, here:”Vegans say we have no natural adaptions to eat meat,but do we have special adaptations to graze and get fruits from trees?No,we use tractors and tools to get our veggies/fruits out of the wild.We have a special adaptation most animals do not have:high intelligence. And you say we marinate meat with veggies to make it taste like veggies, no, we marinate it to give it flavor because we have intelligence & food is no longer just survival, taste and formulas matter,&,humans used to eat raw meat and dirty fruit, but we evolved so much to our tool filled enviroment that we now can only eat cooked meat since we invented fire,& cleaned and harvested veggies since we made the hoe and used work animalslong ago. And and try to rip a potato out of the ground, & eat it, right there & then. Not very good, is it? Whats that? Why of course you got sick from the dirt and germs. But we have these things called tools & intelligence, & from evolution to make things our bodies are not adapted to bearable. But evolution forgot you, it seems. “Kill with your fangs”. Graze and eat from trees with your super long neck, toe fingers, monkey tail, and 5 stomaches, dumbass. Oh, and another animal that eats like people? The otter. I see no fangs, claws, or crushing strenth on those. But they are intelligent, and use rocks to crack open clams. You can’t say it is not natural for otters to eat clams.”
    I do not hate veggs. I just am angry at the militant ones who give false evidence for their cause, say they are superior, & guess what? Scientific studies prove that plants do feel pain. And read these. One is the story, one is answers to your questions.Don’t be douches.While humans are healthiest eating large amounts of frsh fruits/veggies, but it is an unintelligent generalization to give up the small amount of animal products our bodies need.And remember,all food causes animal death. We are omnivores, & so cannot eat without killing. When you buy veggies, you are not dircectly killing & eating animals, but you are eating food that came from land that had to be farmed, cleared, & many animals died for that. So you don’t care, just because you don’t have to see them dead? You don’t have to see pigs die in farms, so stop caring. That simple, by your logic. All food production kills animals, not eating animals that are useless for anything but to be consumed makes no difference. You say meat production causes pollution, but what doesn’t, these days? The car you drive, the food you eat, the house you live in, the clothes you wear: they all caused pollution to be produced. Also, soy messes up your hormones & was never meant to be an edible plant. It is not nearly as healthy as the wonder food it is made out to be, look at this & other similar sites:
    “I was looking over a menu in a restaurant the other day when I saw a section for vegetarians; I thought to myself “boy, I sure am glad that I’m not a meat-hating fascist” and I skipped on to the steak section (because I’ll be damned if I’m going to pay $15 for an alfalfa sandwich, slice of cucumber and a scoop of cold cottage cheese), but before I turned the page something caught my eye. The heading of the vegetarian section was titled “Guiltless Grill,” not because there were menu items with fewer calories and cholesterol (since there were “healthy” chicken dishes discriminated against in this section), but because none of the items used animal products. Think about that phrase for a second. What exactly does “guiltless grill” imply? So I’m supposed to feel guilty now if I eat meat? Screw you.

    What pisses me off so much about this phrase is the sheer narrow-mindedness of these stuck up vegetarian assholes. You think you’re saving the world by eating a tofu-burger and sticking to a diet of grains and berries? Well here’s something that not many vegetarians know (or care to acknowledge): every year millions of animals are killed by wheat and soy bean combines during harvesting season (source). Oh yeah, go on and on for hours about how all of us meat eaters are going to hell for having a steak, but conveniently ignore the fact that each year millions of mice, rabbits, snakes, skunks, possums, squirrels, gophers and rats are ruthlessly murdered as a direct result of YOUR dieting habits. What’s that? I’m sorry, I don’t hear any more elitist banter from you pompous cocks. Could it be because your shit has been RUINED?

    That’s right: the gloves have come off. The vegetarian response to this embarrassing fact is “well, at least we’re not killing intentionally.” So let me get this straight; not only are animals ruthlessly being murdered as a direct result of your diet, but you’re not even using the meat of the animals YOU kill? At least we’re eating the animals we kill (and although we also contribute to the slaughter of animals during grain harvesting, keep in mind that we’re not the ones with a moral qualm about it), not just leaving them to rot in a field somewhere. That makes you just as morally repugnant than any meat-eater any day. Not only that, but you’re killing free-roaming animals, not animals that were raised for feed. Their bodies get mangled in the combine’s machinery, bones crushed, and you have the audacity to point fingers at the meat industry for humanely punching a spike through a cow’s neck? If you think that tofu burgers come at no cost to animals or the environment, guess again.

    To even suggest that your meal is some how “guiltless” is absurd. The defense “at least we’re not killing intentionally” is bullshit anyway. How is it not intentional if you KNOW that millions of animals die every year in combines during harvest? You expect me to believe that you somehow unintentionally pay money to buy products that support farmers that use combines to harvest their fields? Even if it was somehow unintentional, so what? That suddenly makes you innocent? I guess we should let drunk drivers off the hook too since they don’t kill intentionally either, right? There’s no way out of this one. The only option left for you dipshits is to buy some land, plant and pick your own crops. Impractical? Yeah, well, so is your stupid diet. It is f#@%ing IMPOSSIBLE to live without killing some form of life. You are just stupid, disgusted by the very idea of the cycle of life & death.

    Even if combines aren’t used to harvest your food, you think that buying fruits and vegetables (organic or otherwise) is any better? How do you think they get rid of bugs that eat crops in large fields? You think they just put up signs and ask parasites to politely go somewhere else? Actually, I wouldn’t put that suggestion past you hippies. One of the methods they use to get rid of pests is to introduce a high level of predators for each particular prey, which wreaks all sorts of havoc on the natural balance of predator/prey populations–causing who knows what kind of damage to the environment. Oops, did I just expose you moral-elitists for being frauds? Damndest thing.

    A number of people have pointed out that the amount of grain grown to feed animals for slaughter every year is greater than the amount of grain grown for humans. So I guess the amount of grain grown for human consumption suddenly becomes negligible and we can conveniently ignore the fact that animals are still ruthlessly murdered either way because of your diet, right? Not to mention that the majority of grain grown for livestock is tough as rocks, coarse, and so low-grade that it’s only fit for animal consumption in the first place. Spare me the “you could feed 500 people with the grain used to feed one cow” line of shit; it’s not the same grain. You sya you would save lives by not eating meat, but guess what? Some people actually work on ranches, etc. And their families would starve if they lost their jobs because you dont like cheeseburgers. So the life of a cow that will get killed by wolves anyway is more important than family & hungry little children? ” Why did the mean people take the cows, daddy? ” Well, son, PETA sais that eating beef is evil. So they threw the cows into the woods to get eaten by wolves, & I lost my job, can no longer provide food or shelter for our family, & now we will all die a slow, painful death of starvation & exposure.”
    But at least your precious chickens got eaten by pumas & wolves instead people, right?
    Then there are the people who jump on the bandwagon with “you could plant billions of potatoes on the land used for cows”–good point, except for the fact that not every plot of land is equally fertile; you think farmers always have a choice on what they do with their land? Also, many vegetarians don’t know (or care to acknowledge) that in many parts of the United States they have “control hunts” in which hunting permits are passed out whenever there is a pest problem (the pest here is deer, elk and antelope) that threatens wheat, soy, vegetable and other crops; this happens several times per year. Then some of you throw out claims that “we are trying to limit the suffering.” How about you limit MY suffering and shut the hell up about your stupid diet for a change; nobody cares. Even if the number of animals that die in combine deaths every year isn’t in the millions, even if it’s just one, are you suggesting that the life of one baby rabbit isn’t worth saving? Are you placing a value on life? Enjoy your tofu, murderers.

    Prince Tapion wrote on January 14th, 2012
    • Whilst I agree that some vegans do proselytise to meat eaters about “murdering animals” and “being ethical” etc, the silent majority of vegans probably couldn’t give a crap what others think or do. What I find frustrating is the underlying attitude in the meat-eaters posts of “well, if you kill one thing (plant, bug, animal in a combine) then f**k it, you might as well kill everything”. So, if you swat a fly you should murder your girlfriend? Should cops charge someone with murder if they accidentally run an animal over? Don’t be so ridiculous. As humans we have certain preferences to particular life-forms- other humans or pets for example. Vegans just extend this relationship to animals such as cows, chickens etc. But hey, if one life is exactly the same as another, eat your dog, or a newborn baby and then try to use this argument when you’re arrested.

      Point is, people need to eat SOMETHING, (unless of course we should all just be breastfed our whole life!) and whether you agree with veganism or meat-eating, the fact remains that people DO eat too much meat.

      Does anyone really need to eat a 72oz steak from a nutritional perspective? No. Do the people buying 3 double cheeseburgers really need that much protein in one go? No. Should everyone have to stop eating meat altogether? No. It’s a choice, and one that some of us choose without judging everyone else for having a different opinion.

      Maybe where you live cows are on ranches with families tending to them with children asking daddy about them. Where I live (in a large agricultural area in the UK) cows are kept indoors, in very tight gated pens hooked to milking machines. Often, the only time the animals we eat get to see outside is on the way to the slaughterhouse. If you want to use the “bunnies and deers and bugs” argument, at least they got to be animals during their life… running around in the sun and all that. Maybe that’s small consolation, but I’d rather be a deer that gets culled in the wild than a factory-farmed chicken being killed at 8 weeks old. You will also find that a lot of vegans strive to be more self-sufficient, like growing their own veg (sans pesticides and combines).

      There are more agricultural “food” animals on the planet than people which makes your one baby rabbit argument a bit lacking in thought really.It’s BILLIONS which are slaughtered each year, and though I’m not saying eating meat is wrong, please! Your reductionist view on the situation is laughable. In parts of Africa they also have elephant culls when populations get too high. Why? Cause whole herds would starve to death! Sometimes the loss of a few can be the saving of many. Read a book sometime.

      Oh, BTW, what makes you think the “Guiltless Grill” phrase was written by a vegetarian? Or that all vegans eat tofu for f**k sake??

      Terri wrote on April 3rd, 2012
      • Terri…some good jabs there, but your opener made no sense because nobody “meat-eaters” takes the stance that ’cause some animals die to produce food then let them all die, simply pointing out hypocrisy.

        Anyways, again maybe some good jabs but you don’t really make any solid points with your lengthy post….you seem somewhat intelligent, disappointed you took up so much space to say really very little

        Xfingxfing wrote on January 3rd, 2013
      • I agree with breast feeding my entire life!

        Nocona wrote on February 22nd, 2013
    • Prince Tapion, I could not have put it any better myself….which is saying a lot because I’m so much smarter than most everyone else.

      A bit lengthy, but actually worth the time to read.

      Xfingxfing wrote on January 3rd, 2013
  20. i think this post and all of it’s comments illustrates the clear difference between the primal/paleo tribe and the veg/vegan community first i’m lead to ask myself, why are there vegetarians/vegans coming into a forum obviously full of carnivores and trying to make their presence known? in my experience with vege-heads, they are often like the little short guy-bully who feels he has something to prove to the world…now, being as i’ve never been the little-guy bully i’m unclear about why some people need to get their noses into everything and need to make their opinions known to all…i don’t walk into my local vegan store/cafe and take up debate with the first skinny-fat, sick, and almost dead looking chicken brained zombie i run into i don’t care what you eat, please do me the same kindness. like bart simpson said of religion, “aren’t the stupid little differences pretty much outweighed by all of the big stupid similarities?” after all we’re all after better health and a more enjoyable personal experience here on earth…who cares how we go about achieving it?

    mark wrote on January 15th, 2012
  21. Just cutting meat and eating a ton of carbs doesn’t sound all that different from everything that’s wrong with the western diet in the first place.
    I don’t have a problem with eating meat, per se, but I don’t have access to environmentally and socially responsibly, humanely, cleanly raised meat very often. So I’m probably 80% vegan.
    But I live on tons of vegetables, fresh and often raw, plus fruits, seeds and nuts. Usually can’t be bothered with legumes, but maybe a sweet potato here and there. I might have some steel-cut oatmeal once in a while, or a little rice on rare occasions because, well, meh, why not, I guess. Fish or shellfish maybe three or four times a week right now since I’m living next to the ocean at the moment and there’s so much fantastic seafood. I did have some quail eggs with breakfast this morning because they looked good at the market.
    But even on totally vegan days, I get something like 40-50% of my calories from fats, and I don’t seem to be able to eat less than 70 grams of protein. Even if I tried. I don’t count calories- I probably don’t get enough of them to maintain my body weight according to conventional wisdom.
    Avocados, nuts and seeds, all kinds of mushrooms, fruits and berries, greens and cruciferous veggies and fresh herbs… my meals are soul-satisfying, my body’s gotten more toned, both stronger and fuller (as a woman, that’s a good thing, since I used to be kind of a stick), and I don’t ever crave sweets or refined carbs. Yeah, if I feel like fish, I eat it. When I get back to Colorado, if I feel like bison, I might have a (quite rare, yum) steak a few times a month. But I’m largely thriving on the fats and proteins I happily soak up from a low carb, mostly vegan diet.

    The only downfall is the cost of good produce and having to shop at least every other day.

    sruskaya wrote on January 15th, 2012
  22. This article is misleading.

    You use an example of a group of people eating ‘copious amounts of mostly refined carbs’ as an example of an unhealthy diet to reinforce the idea that a paleo diet is healthier.

    But this does not give any insight into the benefits of a diet which may contain restricted amounts of whole grains along with meats.

    panda wrote on February 6th, 2012
  23. Vegan 20 months. Lost 30 lbs. Felt great for the first 6 months. Then I started getting crabby and tired and was fianlly diagnosed as anemic by a naturopath. I was taking daily iron supplements and it didn’t help. I slowly gained 20 lbs back. My skin went all to hell. I had horrible hormonal type acne and anxiety and depression. And you know what else??? I got skin cancer! I had read the China Study and Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease and all that nonsense, and I GOT CANCER!! This wasn’t cancer that had been brewing for years. It started a year after going vegan. I was lied to. My blood levels were nothing to write home about. My good cholesterol was very low and the bad was average. Triglycerides were normal. I was supposed to be in ideal ranges there too. It’s all crap made up by PETA types. You know, I really did want to make veganism work for me. The state of meat production nowadays is depressing and it hurts the environment, but I’m an animal too and can’t live like a vegan anymore. A relative sent me to this site. She was thrilled to hear that I’d started eating fish (and occasionally beef) again. I’m thrilled that I’m just starting to feel a little better. I hope your info works for me. (P.S. I was NOT a junk food vegan and I’m sick as hell of hearing “you did veganism wrong”. No. Veganism failed ME.)

    Judy wrote on February 18th, 2012
  24. Awhile ago I dated a vegan and I would eat quite a lot of what he ate, and I didn’t work out much at all We were talking about moving in together so I stayed there for about 5 weeks (it’s all I could handle or else I may have had to go to the hospital or something) and ate everything he provided for me. After the first week or so people at work and my friends started commenting on how pale I looked. The thing is, he put so many different powders and stuff into his food so that he wouldn’t lose nutrition which is the “smart” thing to do. Personally even with all his herb vitamins and what not, I still felt horrible! By the end of the two weeks I made my mom come get me and ended up moving in with her and gaining my health and strength back. I guess if your body is use to it it’s fine but…ugh it made me feel horrible.

    Mina wrote on February 25th, 2012
  25. I’m getting the vegan backlash for making the decision to go on a Paleo style diet after 6 years of veganism and 2 years of raw food. It was only after I adopted a raw food diet that my health issues began. Hypothyroidism, weight GAIN, arthritis and hormone imbalance. I kept trying like an idiot to fix it with more raw foods, “superfoods” (WTF?, and eventually trying an all fruit diet for the last 45 days. I began blogging about it and announced that I was going on a full blown paleo diet for the next 45 days to see if any of my symptoms subside. It’s been disappointing how hateful some people have been – especially the Banana Cult but there have also been several who have gone out of their way to support my decisions. You can read about my transition at excuse the banner at the top, I haven’t had time to change the Raw Vegan bit just yet :)

    Erin wrote on March 2nd, 2012
  26. ICAV

    Independent Commission Against Veg*nism.

    Brandic wrote on March 7th, 2012
  27. Seriously? Why is this even an issue?

    To vegans and vegetarians: Relax. Unfortunately the animals will die anyway. Just saying. You’re not saving any of them. By not eating them, you’re only taking away the purpose they were bred for. That’s a disservice. Also, just because you believe something, doesn’t mean you have ANY right to try to force it on another by harassment, belittlement, or accusations. That’s immoral and just bad behavior.

    To carnivores: Calm down. Who cares if vegetarians or vegans don’t want to eat meat. Does it affect you personally? I’m pretty sure it doesn’t. Just like they do not have the right to attack you for your eating habits, you don’t have the right to attack them. So eat your meat if that is what you wish, and do it respectfully. That life was sacrificed so you could survive, treat it as such. Also to hunters, animals are not trophies they are beings that cannot defend themselves against us. Killing them for sport doesn’t make you anything but a murderer. If you don’t NEED it to survive, let it alone.

    To both: Eat your veggies. Eat your meat. But shut up about it. No one is going to magically change their lifestyle because of what you say on a website comment section. Seriously.

    Jakal wrote on March 22nd, 2012
    • Jakal….good points, we should all be more tolerant. However, as to why the “carnivores” seem to get upset….well, I don’t think it’s due to anti-veganism, I think it’s because this is a Primal Living site, I would think for those to share this interest or even belief, not a place to be assailed by vegetarians and vegans.

      As for Hunting being murder unless you NEED it to survive…no, nothing sporting about some fat old slob shooting a deer, but although not a survival need venison is a good source of healthy meat, healthier than most meats in grocery stores, and it tastes really good if you like natural meat…please, enough with the trying to take “gamey” flavour out of wild meat, just eat cow then.

      Xfingxfing wrote on January 3rd, 2013
  28. FYI, the Dalai Lama eats meat 6 months out of the year. Based on doctors order. What’s cool about the Dalai Lama is that he doesn’t go out of his way to defend himself when the vegan community picks at him. Even the Dalai Lama doesn’t try to use woo-woo logic to explain biology. [And I meditate everyday. It’s all about balance of mind and body.] He is flexible in his thinking and still does great things for the world. Other’s need to be as well. Focus on making your own life great and then teach others. Not the other way around. And Mark Sisson definitely models what he teaches. I tend to listen more to the person with the better integrity match with some great results. He’s had a few decades to prove his logic out and still does his best to stay true and grounded. Thanks, Mr. Sisson for the education and inspiration.

    Abby wrote on March 27th, 2012
  29. I wish the author of this article had tried out the mcdougall plan properly on this trip. His review of the diet is meaningless. As for the people looking unhealthy, many on the mcdougal website have improved their health conditions – perhaps they are just not into resistance exercise.

    sharon wrote on April 3rd, 2012
  30. I have been a vegan for years. Any diet that relies on breads and pastas and rices in abundance at every meal will be seriously lacking! I limit my complex carbohydrates to low-GI foods, the occasional homemade bread, and steel-cut oats. Those, I do not consume as often as fresh fruits and vegetables, legumes, and the occasional organic tempeh/tofu. Looking at basic human anatomy, we can all agree that we aren’t built for meat. (our ‘canine’ teeth- really remind you of the big cats and carni/omnivores out there- yeah not really. ours are short and dull.)

    Anyway, don’t hate on the vegan diet. I’ve never been healthier.

    Lee wrote on April 7th, 2012
    • No, Lee, we can’t all agree that we aren’t all “built for meat”–otherwise we wouldn’t be here at this website. The whole idea is that we evolved eating meat and this is likely the very thing that made us humans (the increased saturated fat intake led to the developement of larger frontal lobes.) Archeology suggests there were significant times in human evolution when the human diet was almost exclusively animal flesh (the ices ages, of which there has probably been two during hominid existence.) If we hadn’t adapted to animal flesh, we likely wouldn’t be here.

      Chimps and gorillas have very large, sharp canines, despite being primarily frugivores. And although we don’t have large canines, they are larger than our hominid ancestors. And we have incisors that are very well suited to tearing through flesh. Remember the last time you bit through your check by accident?

      Fritzy wrote on April 7th, 2012
  31. *cheek*

    Fritzy wrote on April 7th, 2012
  32. I’d rather eat the rabbit than deprive it of food. That’s just cruel.

    Neesha wrote on April 7th, 2012
  33. I don’t want to disprove anyone’s way of eating on here. I am only going by my research and my experiences. But, I recently am gradually moving to a vegan diet, and it is doing wonders for me. I am no longer diabetic, and am losing weight, and feel a lot healthier in general. I also have more energy at the gym; whereas before when I was eating more meat, my overall energy was not so good. I believe that veganism is a good way to go but I don’t try to shove it down other people’s throats. It is just my belief. I don’t believe in gourging one’s self on only one thing. Just remember one thing:

    Torie F. wrote on April 21st, 2012
  34. It seems there are a lot of armchair nutritionists out there who seem to all “know” what is good and bad to eat.

    If you simply follow the FDA’s recommendations, you’d find that it is perfectly healthy to be a vegetarian. One does not need meat to have a complete and nutritious diet.

    Ari wrote on April 27th, 2012
  35. You lost a few POUNDS of muscle over a WEEK? That just is not possible.

    And he expects a 62 year-old female endurance athlete to have considerable muscle mass? And he thinks she’s fat?

    Up your game, Mark, you’re not impressing the rational people.

    Eric wrote on April 29th, 2012
  36. I’ve followed the McDougall program, low protein, high carbohydrate, and gained 25 lbs of lean muscle in 17 months (maintained 12% bf). Prior to this I had followed a mix between this and more fruitarian. I lost well over 100 lbs in 12 months.

    I come from a family of farmers, I see the destruction even “organic” meats and dairy will cause. My family is all overweight. My grandfather and grandmother both had colon cancer, my grandfather had parkinsons disease and diabetes, my father had multiple sclerosis, high blood pressure, overweight, epilepsy, IBS, gallbladder disease, many urinary tract infections, my grandmother suffered from diabetes, eczema, etc.

    My grandparents drank fresh organic cows milk every day, and slaughtered their own organic beef and chicken and didn’t spare the organ meats! Their diet and the diet of my uncle who farms was/is based on calories from fat (fresh organic butter, organic chicken eggs, pork fat) My great grandfather died at 93, my grandfather at 84, and my father at 67. I don’t think I was 250 lbs and had a damaged back and nerve damage because of it, because I ate too much bread. I ate far too much fat, and was never satisfied with such a diet.

    Growing up on a farm, I saw what goes into the production of dairy and meat products, and I completely disagree with it all. I don’t debate that plenty of small animals are killed in the production of plant foods, because they are, but there is a difference between consciously choosing to kill animals, and having them die indirectly to maintain ourselves.

    Mohmet wrote on May 12th, 2012
    • Mohmet….if you’re aware beforehand that plenty of animals, never mind trying to diminish their significance by referring to them as small, are going to die as a result of producing plant foods then you’re consciously killing them….it’s not an indirect death if you’re aware the death will occur.

      Truth, living creatures, plants and animals, die to feed us…this should be respected and understood, not done gratuitously without any compassion nor used as an excuse for haters to get off on trying to take some artificial moral high ground.

      Xfingxfing wrote on January 3rd, 2013
  37. I tried vegatarian for a few days but always feel dissatisfied and quick to get hungry again. I now eat much more green leaf, fruit and vegetables, a little rice and grain and much smaller portions of meat, duck etc. I try to gradually reduce total intake and consume more water and green tea. Weight and energy good. Mood good. Metrics all good. My dad thinks its all bunk and eats a full diet at the age of 91!

    Sime wrote on May 20th, 2012
  38. If veganism was healthy or natural lifestyle we would see examples of it in man in his most primal state, hunter gatherers. 200+ HG cultures have been studied and there has never been one observed that was plant based. HG s are observed getting 60-70% of their calories from animal foods.Missionaries, doctors and explorers when first encountering these “primitive” peoples universally noted a complete absence to the diseases of civilization. These peoples do develop these modern diseases when they start eating modern foods, namely white flour, sugar and vegetable oils.
    If meat (animal protein) caused cancer we would see rampant examples of it in nature. We dont. As a former idealistic youthful vegan, I have come to the conclusion that veganism is a form of mental illness. It goes against our biological history and needs

    Michael Cohen wrote on May 25th, 2012
    • Michael Cohen… are correct, just as homosexuality, bisexuality and other sexual deviances go against our biological nature, but if you dare speak the truth you’re attacked and censored by the narrow minded that demand you think as they do, not based on facts or biology, but by their insistence.

      Xfingxfing wrote on January 3rd, 2013

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