My Escape from Vegan Island
Every once in a while, I am alternately stunned and amused by what I see being promoted in the name of good health. I had one of those “stunningly amusing” episodes when I took an eight-day vacation with my family to an all-vegetarian health and adventure retreat in Costa Rica several months ago. We had joined a group of 125 headed by Dr. John McDougall, an accomplished and well-respected physician who uses a strict vegetarian/vegan lifestyle to address disease states in his patients and (ostensibly) to promote better health among the general population. I wasn’t too keen on attending, strict carnivore that I am, but I’m always up for an experiment of one and, moreover, I was convinced by my mostly-vegetarian wife and her vegan parents that our extended family would enjoy a nice tropical vacation together. And the food promised to be so yummy… so I made the leap with my wife, two kids, the in-laws and some cousins.
First off, I must say, I did have a very enjoyable time in Costa Rica with my family, rafting, diving, zip lining and hiking…but after what I witnessed during my stay, I can assure you that I have never been so certain that the Primal Blueprint way of eating – which I have embraced for over 30 years now – is the best way to achieve and maintain excellent health. Frankly, I was appalled at both the information being disseminated during this event and at what I saw being served at every meal in the name of “health food.”
I am an omnivore and always have been. Carrie, my wife, was a vegetarian for fifteen years until I convinced her about five years ago to starting adding fish to her diet to get more protein. She still considers herself, in the words of the Outback Steakhouse guy, a “semi-veg.” My wife’s parents have been strict vegans for nearly thirty years and are ardent followers of Dr. McDougall. McDougall’s own story involves having had a severe stroke at age 19 from which, at 59, he still limps. He became an MD and eventually realized that diet was an important part of the health equation. He’s a very likable and charming guy. I had a few superficial discussions with him, even attended a few of his nightly lectures. His heart is certainly in the right place, but I fear he is leading people down a wholly inappropriate dietary path. At the risk of oversimplifying, the basis of his program is that almost all starch is good, all fat is bad and meat of any kind is deadly. It is, in his words, a “starch-based” diet, high in grains and legumes.
The attendees were generally divided into two groups: those who were fairly new to the program – many of them had some serious weight to lose – and those who had been on the McDougall program for several years. Many of the latter group, I gathered, had come to McDougall originally with one or more chronic diseases and on multiple medications. Each evening, after the adventure activity of the day (all of which were pretty sedate), Dr. McDougall would deliver a lecture intended to inform the group of the evils of traditional medicine and big pharma – much of which I generally agree with – and to demonize beef, pork, chicken, fish, dairy of all kinds and most forms of soy. I got the general gist after the first evening. He’s not a fan of supplements either. But he does imply that when you eat vegetarian, you can have all you want…and therein lay the source of much amusement for me.
The lecture would adjourn and everyone would line up for the buffet line which would, at virtually every meal, include copious amounts of breads and rolls, rice, potatoes, pasta, beans, some anemic-looking steamed vegetables and a romaine-only lettuce salad. No dressings allowed. The only fat I could see was in the guacamole that served as a spread. The desert table had a variety of fruits and at least two choices of so-called “healthy” cakes. The drinks were generally overly sweetened fruit drinks.
Now I’m not one to judge. Okay, I am, but I usually keep my mouth shut – except herein. I watched at every meal as overweight, unhealthy people piled their plates with at least two pounds of bread, pasta, rice, potatoes, beans, desert cake, and a glass of fruit juice. Sometimes they went back for more. By my calculations these people were consuming 200 to 300 or more grams of (mostly simple) carbohydrates at each of three meals. There was no way these folks were going to lose fat on this trip. It was, in my view, a type 2 diabetes epidemic in-the-making.
In fending for myself, I focused mainly on the salads and the black beans mixed with a little rice. As you regular readers know, I don’t “do” breads, potatoes, pasta, desserts or fruit drinks. I think they are unhealthy. Go figure. I have to say, it sure got old after a day or two.
Of those who had already been on the McDougall program for years, I had the following general observation: they don’t look too healthy. People who subsist on grains and simple carbs at the expense of quality protein for any length of time tend to lose muscle mass, regardless of their exercise regimen. They are what we call “skinny fat“. Essentially, they have no lean tissue and yet they have surprisingly high body fat levels, despite their loose “skin and bones” appearance. Lean body mass is a major defining criterion of good health; and these folks were sorely lacking. Excess carbohydrate turns to fat pretty easily, but you can neither build nor preserve muscle with it. Herein lies the confusion for many folks: while glucose serves as short-term fuel for muscles, it does not build nor maintain them. One woman, a 62-year old triathlete who trains hours a day and competes almost every weekend authoritatively suggested that I was a fool to eat meat and that I should embrace the McDougall program as she had for 15 years. Problem was, she looked like hell. No muscle tone at all and, I suspect, a fairly high body fat for someone who fancied herself an athlete. It took all I had to keep from saying something that might have spoiled her trip!
As with any diet regimen, Dr. McDougall backs his theories up with studies. But that’s the biggest problem with the “science” of nutrition: anyone can find a study here or there that supports almost any premise. To wit: Fish is great because it’s a source of important Omega 3 fats, but fish is bad because it’s a source of toxic heavy metals, but fish is great because the heavy metals are not actually present at realistically dangerous levels, but fish is bad because the fish lobby was the one funding the study on relative safety, and on ad infinitum.
If there were a right answer, everyone would be doing it. I guess the best any of us can do is to align the “receptivity filters” in our brains with our current belief systems and create habits that reinforce those beliefs – and that, hopefully, result in healthy bodies and minds. Ultimately, I have chosen to believe that we were programmed to eat primarily small portions of meat and vegetables, with a little fruit thrown in occasionally. It works for me (53 years old, 5’10” 165 lbs and 8% body fat).
Problem is, if you have no understanding of biology or chemistry, you can easily fall for that old vegan argument that meat is bad (notwithstanding the fact that there has never, in the entire history of man, been a country, culture or race that subsisted entirely on vegetables without animal flesh of some kind). Many people do fall for it. They also fall for the old “protein leaches calcium” argument, completely ignoring the fact that bones require protein as well as weight bearing activity to promote bone density and prevent osteoporosis. Or that stress has a far greater impact on preventing absorption of calcium than excess protein in the diet. But here I am giving you my opinion again and it’s only based on studies that my filters have shown align with my own beliefs…
I was fascinated by what I saw to be the complete antithesis of a healthy diet being offered up as the healthiest way to eat. And by people willing to accept that they could eat all they want of this high-carb fare and regain their lost health in the process. Try as I might, I couldn’t avoid losing a few pounds of hard-fought muscle myself over the week. Luckily, I was able to regain homeostasis shortly after returning home. And ultimately, I was left with a confidence that following Primal Blueprint path is exactly what humans were designed to do.
What are your thoughts on vegetarianism, carbohydrates, and protein?
Be sure to stick around for today’s Tuesday 10.
(This piece was originally posted at my friend Art DeVany’s blog.)
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Posted By: Mark Sisson
My mum recently became a vegan, and I cringe every time I see her eat. She gets NO protein whatsoever. For lunch she has a massive plate of pineapple with an equally massive plate of dates, as well as an unholy amount of bread, pasta, and other forms of what is basically sugar. CRINGE!
Hi. I just watched a portion of McDougall’s video on how good starches are. I do not take issue with his statement that starches are good. Some people do very well on starches. I do object to his claim that we can live all our lives on a high-starch, low-fat, low-protein diet such as he promotes. It is crazy.
However, you said you met a 62 year old triathlete who didn’t look good. Anyone who can exercise like she does – well, I wouldn’t criticize. Maybe she doesn’t value the sort of look you promote as being indicative of great health. I don’t argue with results: if she is happy with her body and her diet and her highly active life, hey, what’s it to me…
What about vegan athletes and bodybuilders? They don’t look like the “skinny fat” you mentioned in the article.
Although I’ve been following a carb restricted, primal sort of diet for awhile, I did buy a copy of one of McDougall’s earlier books, “The McDougall Program for Maximum Weight Loss”, just to satisfy my curiosity.
In the early part of the book he talks a lot about the importance of keeping insulin levels low. Among the factors that he associates with obesity are the consumption of sugar and refined foods. His prohibited food list includes anything made from flour (i.e., bread and pasta). He specifically recommends limiting sugar because it spikes blood sugar, which raises insulin. He advocates complex carbohydrates (starch) because they digest slowly (according to him) and thus minimize blood sugar elevation, and thus insulin elevation.
So I am surprised to read that a McDougall retreat would include lots of bread, pasta, and sweetened beverages on the menu. That seems at odds with his theories about blood sugar and insulin. It would be interesting to know why the disconnect between what he preaches and what he serves in the dining room.
The other suspect point is his belief that complex carbohydrates in the form of starch don’t spike blood sugar, and thus don’t elevate insulin. There seems to be a lot of contrary evidence to that claim, including a lot of type II diabetics who see every day on their blood sugar meters that starches are quite capable of spiking blood sugar level, much more so than eggs or cheese or meat.
McDougall is a a big fan of potatoes, both white and sweet. I know that there are cultures who have survived on mostly those and allegedly do not have trouble with obesity or diabetes. But my own limited experience is that they push my blood sugar to uncomfortably high levels. Perhaps if you have barely gotten enough calories for most of your existence, and never gotten heavy, then you can tolerate that kind of diet with minimal metabolic risk. But that doesn’t describe the America I see. In this country we have a high percentage that are already overweight and showing signs of impaired glucose/carbohydrate metabolism. Maybe McDougall’s diet can help some of them, if they haven’t already damaged things beyond repair. Perhaps if your blood sugar control issue stems strictly from insulin resistance, and your pancreas and liver are still capable of functioning optimally, then you can go back to an early agrarian diet and survive, or even thrive. But if you already have evidence of impaired blood sugar control, I’d proceed with caution when loading up on rice, beans, and potatoes, because your liver and pancreas may be sufficiently impaired that you can never again carb up.
If we are, in fact, designed to eat meat and veggies, which you claim DOES require cooking, then WHY does no other species on the planet cook its food!!? Are humans the exception to the rule? Are the other species too stupid to realize they need to cook their food to obtain the correct nutrients they need to survive with optimal health? Face it, any “natural” diet that requires you to cook the food is not truly natural, and if you follow the rule that all species are designed to eat food in nature “as is,” then that points us humans toward a fruit-based diet, with certain vegetables as well, and maybe some nuts and seeds, all foods which can be eaten in their raw state. The argument, heating vegetables releases certain nutrients, may be true, but it is BS – if nature intended for humans to consume those “extra nutrients,” it would not require we cook them!
Meat does not “require” cooking. It just tastes better that way. No other species on the planet has learned to do math, build enormous complex buidlings, combine random materials and turn them into ‘stuff’, read, write, make tools etc, etc, so……… should we not be doing that either?
Still, if we were truly omnivores (or carnivores), then the thought of eating raw, freshly killed, bloody animal organs wouldn’t disgust us, because it doesn’t disgust the true natural animal killers. If you can eat meat that way, then good for you, but I know I could never eat a bloody animal organ.
I agree. I think a virtuous cycle of nutrition and brain development allowed humans to then use their brains to cook meat, enjoy it more and benefit from even greater brain development. I think so, anyhow.
Relative to size, various insects build massive structures.
I agree with the premise that cooking foods made more nutrients available, which in turn made humans more intelligent. Now we are so smart that we have made crappy processed foods and are devolving. Enjoy the ride.
An Anth 101 course should adequately answer while we cook meat while other animals don’t. Short form – it puts a wider range of things edible if we cook them. Applies to plants as well as meat.
In virtually every magazine article and internet article I see on “vibrant good health” the top banner shows someone running or partaking of some stupid sports.
For God’s sake, stop already! Since when is running up a storm the only indicator of stamina, good health, strength, and so on? My parents NEVER ran (except when chasing wayward cattle)and you would tire out simply reading the list of what they did every day. And then they went to bed at 10 PM or so, got up at 6:30 and did it all over again. For decades.
They did eat meat, but also plenty of grains every day, usually at supper (rice, millet, buckwheat, boiled cornmeal, home made noodles, home made white bread) in various forms, and every day, too – which is what they fed me and my brothers and sisters. Neither had diabetes or anything else, for that matter. So don’t knock grain consumption.
For those of you on the meat and vegetable diet, I’d like to see you after 40 years of this, with no secret lapses into heavy or refined carbs, of course.
We were meant to eat the mixed diet of our civilized, not paleolithic, ancestors. The 10,000 year old mixed carb, vegetable, dairy and meat diet is what our body has adapted to. Our bodies are not those of cavemen any more. If anyone does well on a pure meat and vegetable diet, it’s only temporary. Your body will someday rebel (unless, maybe you are of aboriginal ancestry). This is what happens all the time to big pushers of raw or cooked veganism. They go on secret binges of meat and grease and then continue to brag about their “good health”.
And while I’m here, I better tell you that all that endless run-run-running is not a healthful pursuit. It is neurotic and bad for your body. Unless you load up on mineral supplements, a lot of you will suffer cramps and other byproducts of this unnatural form of exercise.
Balanced, natural exercise is the way to go. I’d recommend the performance of useful, necessary, productive labor every day, and lots of it. Like my parents and me.
I spent the last 5 years living as a vegetarian. I did it for the animals, and for the fact that the meat and poultry industries are inherently cruel and I did not want to support such organizations. I also gained weight when I first stopped eating meat, instead relying heavily on breads, pastas, and all sorts of carbs to fill me up. After tayloring back the carbs and consuming more vegetables and legumes, I lost the additional weight and thought I was on my path to a healthier and cruelty-free lifestyle. Fast forward to 2011… I have completed my first triathlon, and I’m feeling better than ever! Not long after though, my body broke down. All the chronic cardio, empty calories, and lack of proper supplementation had caught up with me and I felt miserable. My back, neck and shoulders were rock hard (not in the good way!), full of knots, and I was suffering from painful muscle spasms. My asthma was worse than ever, migraines nearly every day, and I was the depression and anxiety I had battle since my early twenties was flaring up more frequently and intensely. After trying to tough it out for a few weeks I finally caved in and visited a chiropractor who introduced me to Mark’s blog and the Primal lifestyle. I have been hooked ever since! It has been a little over two months now, and while I am still in recovery, I feel so, SO much better! Reintroducing meat into my diet was an emotional obstacle I had to cross, but by focusing on clean meats I am able to reassure myself that these animals were well fed and hopefully raised and slaughtered humanely. By eating organic fruits and vegetables I also know I am helping the environment by not contributing to companies that use pesticides which will eventually land as run-off in our rivers and oceans. I am officially a convert and am looking forward to truly feeling 100% again through living as Grok would!
After my carnivore hubby had a stroke and a heart attack before the age of 40, we went on the McDougall diet. My husband played soccer and basketball, climbed mountains and never had any heart symptoms at all. He was a dairy lover and we just loved the diet books that said meat was great.
Our motto now? Life is better than food. Not only is he off very dangerous BP meds, has great BP, looks fabulous, lots of energy and his hairline stopped receding, I love that we don’t eat animals. Now cheese smells like what it is, fermented liquid designed to make a calf grow really fast. And the meat department at Whole Foods? It smells like dead animals, it makes me glad we are vegan.
I can’t believe I once swallowed the garbage that meat is good, potatoes are bad. Chicken is good, carrots are bad. Pork is good, whole grain bread is bad. Just look at the maps of heart disease and breast cancer. They are lit up in the meat eating countries.
Read the China Study. If you don’t get it, read it again. We are not baby cows, we are not lions with carnivore eating teeth. Veggies and fruit and whole grains are foods to thrive on. Life is better than food. But now I know there is no better food than vegan food!
You seriously need to research what you’re arguing against before you start off on your rants. We eat, in Mark’s words, “reckless amounts of vegetables”. We don’t eat a lot of fruit because we avoid excessive sugar. We don’t eat grains because of anti-nutrients, high GIs, and low nutritional value for the amount of sugar in them.
Grains are okay for most of us in moderation when properly prepared and cooked according to the Weston Price information.
I suspect that people began to crave grains and dairy products simultaneously as they provide a sort of crude balance to each other. Improperly prepared grains will indeed suck minerals out but dairy products will re-provide them.
Or, conversely, people eating too much (or any?) dairy products may be excessively mineralized so grains will do the job of removing them.
I am convinced we are going to kill animals weather we want to or not: 1992, after leaving the Army in Arizona I drove back to Washington, probably killing several hundred thousand bugs, it took lots of water to get them all out of the radiator of the car they had jammed themselves into, not to mention the windshield.
I’ve loved food in general all my life, going from 15% post army fat in 1992 to 30% today in 2011. Clearly SOMETHING went wrong!
As I look at all the possible new eating lifestyle to attach myself to, it feels like being at an amusement park…hey there’s the vegan ride “let me show you some videos of fat inside your arteries!”…when you done there come over to the low carb high meat diet: “you’ll loose that HI GI spike and weight while at the same time eating the best meat if your life!”
…wait, there’s more! “Don’t forget to first detox for 10 days on lemons and Maple Syrup!”
In the end I come to the conclusion that the Primal Living “way” seems to be the right mix. I believe that eating some protein every day from animal sources will be a good thing, but rather than my past style of 300 grams per day, maybe 100 is a good level with lots of raw foods. also I believe the bread problem is real. Everyone I know eats bread at least twice per day. I’m cutting it completely. Well see how I’ve done in a few months.
I found this blog as I’m researching fats, due to concern about adding a lot of meat back to my diet. It’s looking like the general consensus will, like smoking, turn out to be omega 6 pufas and refined carbs, and most def NOT sat fats as the culprits. Just dig a bit thru wikipedia&google prostaglandins series 12&3, cholesterol tc:hdl, coconut oil has all the good sat fats. If you’re vegan, have algae – spirulina and chlorella for your omega 3s; that’s where fish get them, and coconut oil. If lo-veg also have o-3 eggs. Use the oils mark recommends but rice bran oil for high heat instead of lard etc. Youre doing better than those eating factory & preserved meats that’s for sure!
You have vegan in laws? omigosh! This is the best article. I just escaped from my own vegan island…was vegan for 2 years to bring a total of 25 years of vegetarianism. I am so “skinny fat” still, and this article finally clarified it all for me! I wonder how long does it take to reverse this and gain some muscle composition? I assume it’s a slow process after so much time. Maybe it’s already happening though, so gradually that I don’t notice. I also got progressively more and more fatigued as a vegan, and that has been a gradual healing process, too. It is so nice to not only have energy again, but to be free of those strangely limiting beliefs about health.
After being a vegan for 4 years. ( proper Plant nutrition , no soy , no wheat) I’ve switched over to a more personalized diet. First off, vegan diets have not stood the test of time. Two or three generations of healthy fertile humans need to be bred on vegan diets to conclude that they are indeed healthy. With that said, vegan diet has caused me personal harm and damage. My diet now consists of raw organic dairy, raw grass fed meat, organic fruit and vegetables much of which comes from my own garden.
suggest your folks actually go read about the mcdougall menu’s:
here’s the next retreat, let them make the call:
WEDNESDAY 6:30PM DINNER BUFFET
MIXED GREEN SALAD WITH OIL FREE DRESSINGS
BOWLS OF ASSORTED VEGETABLES & BEANS
TWO STEAMED VEGETABLES
DIJON SPINACH SALAD (Quick & Easy Pg. 16)
VEGETABLE BARLEY SALAD (New Cookbook Pg. 196)
PEA SOUP ( NL Nov. 2004)
BAKED YAMS, PEANUT DRESSING (NL FEB 2006)
Serve dressing on side
POLENTA WITH BLACK BEANS AND MANGO SALSA (NL Sept. 2004)
CONFETTI RICE (Quick & Easy Pg. 93) SERVE WARM
SHEPHERD’S VEGETABLE PIE (NL April 2002) DO NOT COVER WHEN BAKING
FRUIT COBBLER (NL MAY 2004)
HERB TEA, DECAF ICED TEA
RICE MILK, ALMOND MILK
——————————————————————————–
THURSDAY 7:30AM BREAKFAST BUFFET
STEEL CUT IRISH OATMEAL (NL Dec 2004)
RICE MILK, SOY MILK, ALMOND MILK
SLICED BANANAS, CHOPPED APPLE
ASSORTED SLICED FRUIT
CINNAMON, MACE, NUTMEG (in shaker jars)
STEVIA, BROWN SUGAR
COLD CEREALS: PUFFED CORN, PUFFED RICE, PUFFED MILLET
SHREDDED WHEAT, GRAPENUTS, UNCLE SAM CEREAL
BAKED POTATO PATTIES (New Cookbook Pg. 313)
SALSA, KETCHUP, BARBECUE SAUCE
HERB TEA
——————————————————————————–
THURSDAY 1:00PM LUNCH BUFFET
MIXED GREEN SALAD WITH OIL FREE DRESSINGS
BOWLS OF ASSORTED VEGETABLES & BEANS
STEAMED VEGETABLES (squash, spinach, carrots) sautéed with ORIENTAL DIJON DRESSING (Quick and Easy Pg. 48)
CHUNKY VEGETABLE SALAD (Weight Loss Pg. 204)
SOUTHWESTERN BLACK BEAN SOUP (New Cookbook Pg. 163)
ASIAN RICE SALAD (Quick & Easy Pg. 28)
MAPLE MASHED SWEET POTATOES (NL Oct 2004)
WICKED MUSHROOMS (NL March 2005)
BAKED POTATOES, BROWN RICE
GLOBAL BEAN STEW (NL May 2005)
KETCHUP, BARBECUE SAUCE, SALSA
HERB TEA, DECAF ICED TEA
——————————————————————————–
THURSDAY 6:30PM DINNER BUFFET
MIXED GREEN SALAD WITH OIL FREE DRESSINGS
BOWLS OF ASSORTED VEGETABLES & BEANS
SHREDDED SALAD (Weight Loss Pg. 209)
STEAMED VEGETABLES
MEXI SOUP (Quick & Easy Pg. 75)
TEX-MEX POTATOES (NL Feb 2005)
WITH ENCHILADA SAUCE (Quick & Easy Pg. 221)
INSTANT MEXICAN BROWN RICE (Quick and Easy Pg. 100)
MASHED PINTO BEANS (New Cookbook Pg. 284)
ONIONS, DICED TOMATO, SHREDDED LETTUCE, SALSA
WHOLE WHEAT AND CORN TORTILLAS
TABASCO SAUCE
RICE PUDDING (NL Feb. 2003)
RICE MILK, ALMOND MILK
BASKET OF ASSORTED FRESH FRUIT
HERB TEA, DECAF ICED TEA
——————————————————————————–
FRIDAY 7:30AM BREAKFAST BUFFET
MULTI GRAIN HOT CEREAL (NL Dec 2004)
RICE MILK, SOY MILK, ALMOND MILK
SLICED BANANAS, CHOPPED APPLE
ASSORTED SLICED FRUIT
CINNAMON, MACE, NUTMEG (in shaker jars)
STEVIA, BROWN SUGAR
COLD CEREALS: PUFFED CORN, PUFFED RICE, PUFFED MILLET
SHREDDED WHEAT, GRAPENUTS, UNCLE SAM CEREAL
GALLO PINTO (NL Aug 2003)
SALSA, TABASCO
HERB TEA
——————————————————————————–
FRIDAY 1:00PM LUNCH BUFFET
MIXED GREEN SALAD WITH OIL FREE DRESSINGS
BOWLS OF ASSORTED VEGETABLES & BEANS
STEAMED VEGETABLES
CRUDITÉS / RED PEPPER DIP (Quick & Easy Pg. 255)
POTATO CHOWDER (Quick and Easy Pg. 65)
RAINBOW SALAD (NL May 2004)
BBQ BEAN SALAD (NL Sept 2002)
MOCK TUNA SPREAD (Quick and Easy Pg. 250) Double Recipe
DEVILED SPREAD (Quick & Easy Pg. 246) Serve Cold
CORN TORTILLAS, WHOLE WHEAT BREAD
LARGE LETTUCE LEAVES (for making sandwich wraps), SLICED TOMATOES, SLICED ONIONS, PICKLES
HERB TEA, DECAF ICED TEA
——————————————————————————–
FRIDAY 6:30PM DINNER BUFFET
MIXED GREEN SALAD WITH OIL FREE DRESSINGS
BOWLS OF ASSORTED VEGETABLES & BEANS
TOMATO VEGETABLE SALAD (NL Jan 2005)
TWO STEAMED VEGETABLES
THREE BEAN SALAD (NL Nov 2004)
HEARTY DAL SOUP ( NL April 2007)
QUINOA GARDEN SALAD (NL Jan 2005)
ROASTED POTATOES (NL July 2002) USE LESS CAYENNE
MARINARA SAUCE (New McDougall Cookbook Pg. 353)
SPAGEHTTI SQUASH (NL Nov 2004)
POLENTA (thick), WHOLE WHEAT PASTA
BASKET OF ASSORTED FRESH FRUIT
HERB TEA, DECAF ICED TEA
——————————————————————————–
SATURDAY 7:30AM BREAKFAST BUFFET
STEEL CUT IRISH OATMEAL (NL Dec 2004)
RICE MILK, SOY MILK, ALMOND MILK
SLICED BANANAS, CHOPPED APPLE
ASSORTED SLICED FRUIT
CINNAMON, MACE, NUTMEG (in shaker jars)
BROWN SUGAR, STEVIA
COLD CEREALS: PUFFED CORN, PUFFED RICE, PUFFED MILLET
SHREDDED WHEAT, GRAPENUTS, UNCLE SAM CEREAL
EAST WEST BREAKFAST (NL May 2004)
SALSA, KETCHUP, TABASCO
HERB TEA
——————————————————————————–
SATURDAY 1:00PM LUNCH BUFFET
MIXED GREEN SALAD WITH OIL FREE DRESSINGS
BOWLS OF ASSORTED VEGETABLES & BEANS
CHUNKY VEGETABLE SALAD (Weight Loss Pg. 204)
TOMATO BASIL SOUP (NL June 2002)
THAI NOODLES (NL May 2004)
PICNIC LENTIL SALAD (NL July 2002) Serve Cold
SAN ANTONIA QUINOA (Quick and Easy Pg. 29)
SQUASHY BLACK BEANS (NL Feb 2005) SERVE HOT
BROWN RICE
SOUTHWEST RED POTATOES (NL Jan 2005)
KETCHUP, BARBECUE SAUCE, TABASCO SAUCE
HERB TEA, DECAF ICED TEA
——————————————————————————–
SATURDAY 6:30PM DINNER BUFFET
MIXED GREEN SALAD WITH OIL FREE DRESSINGS
BOWLS OF ASSORTED VEGETABLES & BEANS
SPINACH VEGETABLE SALAD (Weight Loss Pg. 207)
BEAN AND RICE SALAD (Weight Loss Pg. 245)
TWO STEAMED VEGETABLES
MINESTRONE SOUP (NL January 2004)
STUFFED MUSHROOMS (NL Feb. 2005)
LASAGNA (NL Aug. 2005)
MUSHROOMS MCDOUGALL (NL July 2004)
BAKED POTATOES
BARBECUE SAUCE, KETCHUP
CHOCOLATE DECADENCE PUDDING (NL FEB. 2002)
HERB TEA, DECAF ICED TEA
——————————————————————————–
SUNDAY 7:30AM BREAKFAST BUFFET
MULTI GRAIN HOT CEREAL (NL Dec 2004)
RICE MILK, SOY MILK, ALMOND MILK
SLICED BANANAS, CHOPPED APPLE
ASSORTED SLICED FRUIT
CINNAMON, MACE, NUTMEG (in shaker jars)
STEVIA, BROWN SUGAR
COLD CEREALS: PUFFED CORN, PUFFED RICE, PUFFED MILLET
SHREDDED WHEAT, GRAPENUTS, UNCLE SAM CEREAL
COSTA RICAN POTATOES & BEANS (NL Aug 2003)
SALSA, KETCHUP, TABASCO
BREAKFAST APPLE RICE (Weight Loss Pg. 224)
HERB TEA
——————————————————————————–
SUNDAY 1:00PM LUNCH BUFFET
MIXED GREEN SALAD WITH OIL FREE DRESSINGS
BOWLS OF ASSORTED VEGETABLES & BEANS
CRUDITÉS WITH HUMMUS (Quick and Easy Pg. 248)
ITALIAN POTATO SALAD (Weight Loss Pg. 247)
QUICK BLACK BEAN SOUP (NL April 2004)
STEAMED VEGETABLES
MCVEGGIE BURGERS (NL March 2006)
WHOLE WHEAT BUNS
SLICED ONIONS, SLICED TOMATOES, PICKLES, RELISH, LETTUCE
KETCHUP, MUSTARD, TOFU MAYO (Quick & Easy pg. 255)
BARBEQUED BEANS (NL August 2003)
BROWN RICE
HERB TEA, DECAF ICED TEA
Mark, you cannot compare healthy (primal) meat-eaters like Grok, to unhealthy grain-eating vegans like the 62-year-old you mentioned. If you want a good comparison, you have to compare Grok to vegans like Mac Danzig or Avi R. Lehyani.
Here’s what really happened at Mark’s retreat.
http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25530
lolwut.
Your paleo/primal troll blog entry was entertaining to read but also complete and utter bullshit.
I think you should probably tell Robert Cheeke and Billy Symonds that you can’t build and maintain muscle mass exclusively on plant protein.
You talk the same paleo bullshit that every other fool on the interwebz is saying.
A high carb, low fat vegan diet is how every one should live.
Chris….a high carb, low fat vegan diet is how you’re gonna die.
I think you should stop thinking you know everything and let other people eat the way they like.
Have you noticed how most of the angry, insulting posts on this thread are from vegans? I’ve seen simliar dismissive posts by carnivores, but they are usually more of the “meat is good because I say it’s good” variety than the “meat is bad because it will kill you/hurts animals/destroys the planet/you are stupid for even thinking about eating it” mantra that most vegans have.
Extremist points of view are a waste of time and space. I prefer a happy medium approach. I consider myself a vegophile omnivore – a meat eater with an even greater love of vegetables and fruits. I am not vegetarian, but I often eat vegetarian and vegan meals because I feel like it. I also like burgers, turkey, cheese, yogurt, milk and eggs. But if I had to go a day without greens, I’d really be upset. IMHO, fresh, wholesome, unprocessed and pesticide-free foods are the best. Eating right is a daily struggle with multiple conflicting viewpoints. I’m still trying to figure it all out. But I do NOT want to get yelled at by anyone. Thanks for your blog and informative posts.
“I focused mainly on the salads and the black beans mixed with a little rice”
“Try as I might, I couldn’t avoid losing a few pounds of hard-fought muscle myself over the week”
Maybe you were not getting enough protein simply because you were not eating enough food due to your fear of consuming too much carbohydrates? You said you ate salads, black beans, and rice, but how much of each did you eat?
“One woman, a 62-year old triathlete who trains hours a day and competes almost every weekend authoritatively suggested that I was a fool to eat meat and that I should embrace the McDougall program as she had for 15 years. Problem was, she looked like hell. No muscle tone at all and, I suspect, a fairly high body fat for someone who fancied herself an athlete. It took all I had to keep from saying something that might have spoiled her trip!”
Let’s say that this lady did not get enough protein, which is why she has poor muscle tone. According to you, she trains and competes very frequently, yet she still has high body-fat? Even if she did not have enough protein, with all the exercise she had, why would she still have high body-fat even if she ate a lot of carbohydrates? Wouldn’t it all have been burned away?
Were there other factors causing the lady’s poor muscle tone besides not eating meat? Even if you ate a lot of carbohydrates from grains and legumes, you would also have consumed a lot of protein considering if grains and legumes were the base of your diet. Maybe she still had some sort of fear of becoming fat by eating “too much” which is why she did not get enough protein? That may have caused her to eat too little for her activity level.
I’m 35 years old, male, 5’10″, and 145 lbs and have been vegan for 20 years. Vegan = vegan. No cheating with cheese or anything else. Ever. Veggies, grains, legumes, and fruit figure in heavily. Added sugar is out, and I eat very little flour. I have pasta and tortillas sometimes, but only the whole-grain options. I eat a fair amount of oil… don’t know exactly how much. Calories, about 2,500 a day. Exercise, maybe 3 days a week, aerobic, 1 to 2 hours. Desk job. No supplements, but some of the stuff I eat is fortified with B vitamins.
Anyway, you dietarily savvy ones out there: describe my maladies. With the information I’ve provided, you should have a fair idea of the ways I should be suffering. The direct consequences of my diet-lifestyle, whatever they are, have had plenty of time to settle in. Let’s see how good you are.
The carnivores here are very ignorant and misinformed. How about you guys learn biochemistry before spewing your garbage? I am a 3rd year medical school student, and from all the knowledge I’ve accumulated of how the body functions and processes food, I can not find even ONE argument to go against the vegan or vegetarian lifestyle.
I am 24 years old; I have been a vegetarian since I was 15 years old, and a vegan since I was 20. I am in perfect health. At 5’7″, I am 137 lbs. I am a size 2 in pants with 32-23-35 measurements. Most people assume that I weigh 110-115 lbs, not almost 140, because I am so thin. However, despite being so tiny, I am heavier than I look because I am muscular. My legs are very toned, I have a six-pack, and I am physically very fit, sculpted, and strong. I am not “skinny fat” at all.
While simple carbohydrates are bad for the human body, complex carbohydrates that are high in fiber (and protein!) are the best foods available for human consumption.
It is also true that vegans CAN eat larger portions than carnivores, because low fat foods are very low in calories; therefore a larger amount of food is needed to match the caloric intake of meat. This is a *good* thing because carnivores have to eat smaller portions to maintain their weight, while never feeling “full” or satisfied. I remember how it was when I ate meat; I never truly felt fulfilled. Plant foods are also high in fiber which causes the body to feel full.
A vegan diet IS healthier, and that is not an opinion; it is a fact.
“The carnivores here are very ignorant and misinformed.”
The hyperbolic 3rd year med student vegan should know we’re not carnivores; we’re omnivores. Just because we favor meat and fat doesn’t mean we don’t eat our veggies!
“I can not find even ONE argument to go against the vegan or vegetarian lifestyle.”
Two words: B12 shots.
Christina Pirello has a great story about how lack of B12 almost killed her!
http://macrobiotics.co.uk/articles/dilemma.htm
“This is a *good* thing because carnivores have to eat smaller portions to maintain their weight, while never feeling “full” or satisfied.”
That is an opinion, not a fact. I felt starved the entire time I was on a vegan diet. I felt full when I started eating primal.
Fiber didn’t do anything for me except make me very, very regular. Uncomfortably so. Sorry.
“A vegan diet IS healthier, and that is not an opinion; it is a fact.”
Please cite your “facts”. Please be sure to include examples of at least one fully vegan culture that has thrived over multiple generations. Your coop doesn’t count.
Okay, now I’ll be nice: A vegan diet IS probably healthier than the industrialized world’s diet, providing you are talking about someone who is getting most of their meals from boxes, bags, and cans. Yes. Eating a whole foods vegan diet is probably healthier than that. It doesn’t change the fact that, as a vegan, you are going to be deficient in certain rather important vitamins and minerals and would benefit from the occasional inclusion of meat and fat in your diet. Yes, you can supplement, but you can’t get B12 without milking an animal for it somehow. You might want to consider oysters; some vegans actually think they’re the perfect guilt-free, sustainable meat. (Do some googling if you don’t believe me.)
Also, exactly where and when did the Vegan Police decide their diet had to be low fat? That’s just silly. Eat some nuts or something, you silly low-fat vegan. Put down the pasta. And good luck. You’re 24, so you’re probably still healthy. I hope you stay that way.
Feeling “satiated” or “full” is not due to the volume of your intake.
otherwise, we could solve the problem of obesity by telling them to drink only water.
vegan food only makes me feel “bloated” & (due to the sheer volume i have to eat) yet i don’t feel “satisfied”. + i’d feel _cold_ all the time. + i get hungry too easily. i just hate to have to eat every few hours & having wear gloves & socks in summer.
I agree with Melissa (of hunter gather love blog) that as far as i’m concerned, vegetables & fruits are NOT REAL FOOD.
real food has to be nourishing, also fuels & warms me up.
vegetables & fruits do none of the above (for me). but i do eat them (& a fair amount) as dessert (provides colors & textures) also for the medicinal purposes.
i think a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet could be healthy tho.
regards,
Name ONE traditional vegan culture or society.
I don’t know, but I’m guessing none.
Now, answer my question. Come on, ladies and gentlemen. This thread has four pages of “this will happen,” “that will happen,” and “those are irrefutable biological consequences.” All I ask is that you venture to tell me what maladies I must surely be suffering as a result of having maintained one of the strictest vegan diets imaginable for the last 20 years without breaking from it for a single day. The way you people are talking, I would think that would be a piece of cake.
One fella suggested my veins might be thin like rice paper. OK then. I’ll check into that and get back to you. But is that all you can come up with? Don’t chicken out just because you’re being faced with the opportunity to test your speculative hypotheses.
I think you are suffering from a condition known as insufferableness. No need to check for symptoms; we have all the evidence we need.
That’s your answer, mikehell: no physiological maladies, just the insufferable disposition of one who calls armchair theories and politicized conventional wisdom to the test.
I need someone who can really put their money where their mouth is, someone with a little less b-a-a-a-a and a little more oomph. Someone who’s brave enough not to hide behind snark and the myopic “I can’t diagnose you” excuse, as if I even mentioned the idea of official diagnosis.
I can promise you one thing: absolute honesty.
Well oynk, if we can have your complete medical records for the past 20 years then we could verify the claims you’re beating your likely atrophied little chest about.
Like anything else being thrown out here, prove it with facts instead of challenging people to disprove your assertions regarding your physical state, which again unless we had your complete medical history we could not do.
You know this, that’s why you or any slob can claim to be anything through this medium.
“Name ONE traditional vegan culture or society”
- the Village People!
…or did the biker guy get a little meat on the side?
Mar, what study are you basing your opinion on? Why is an organic vegan diet healthier than a balanced, organic omnivore diet?
Since you claim you’re basing your assessment on fact not opinion: which study, from what university are you basing this on?
Good post, Mark. Wow, a lot of bile in the comments. Eat how your body feels best, folks! I tried vegetarianism, low fat/high carb, heavy on the whole grains, and other ways of eating. The whole grains kick nearly killed me. Turns out I’m Celiac and also don’t tolerate most other grains and grasses, some legumes, dairy, or soy. I was nearly paleo already, so figured what the heck, and my body feels so good now. My food nourishes me; I eat less; my skin and hair look great; my mind is clear. For my system, paleo is good.
Anyone who wants to take a break from armchair speculation and philosophizing: let’s get our head out of the clouds and dig our heels into the ground.
Read my post above.
Further details: besides being a strict vegan for 20 years, I have not taken any kind of vitamin supplement pill, injection, or anything of the like in over 6 years. As I said, some of the stuff I consume is vitamin fortified, but my intake of that stuff is haphazard.
My point, as you may ask, is this: apply your knowledge of the pros and cons of the vegan diet to tell me how I’m suffering. What happens after 20 years of strict veganism? How about after 6 years of no vitamin pills?
Don’t be afraid to chime in. I’m giving you a chance to put your money where your mouth is.
Well, Christina Pirello thought she was healthy, too, until her serious medical emergency.
I’m not diagnosing you, how can anyone do that over the internet. I’m not a fan of meat centered diets at all and in fact don’t eat any. But I feel a need for a bit of dairy & eggs and a bit of fish too. I also supplement in a sporadic way. If I wanted meat, I’d eat it but I don’t think I’ll ever develop a craving because I’ve seen animals slaughtered and it just makes me ill.
So, how do you know that YOUR veins aren’t “thin as rice paper” like Ms. Pirello’s were?
I don’t. Did you determine that yours were not?
Perhaps I should check into that. Meantime: I’ve been exercising strenuously for the twenty years that I’ve been a vegan. If my veins are thin like rice paper, how many more years will it take for all that physical stress to produce some noticeable consequence? Another twenty? Forty?
Here I write, roughly one year later from this post. As someone who has read MDA daily since late winter/early spring 2012, I do not recognize oynk’s name in recent forum posts. I’m curious if oynk is out there and if his views have changed or not. Clearly he has passion.
Would like to read more of your insights Ron, aside from me you’re the coolest person here.
Oops, sorry…bad eyesight from eating too much red meat and not enough carrots, Bon as in Bon Rurgundy, not Ron.
Most of the mammals you eat don’t eat meat and don’t drink the milk of other species. They along with the great apes and gorillas that are stronger than even you
don’t seem to have a problem getting enough protein.
The digestive mechanism of “non meat eating mammals” is primarily fermentation. It is a completely different mechanism than human disestion. The concentrated nutrients in the red meat of runimants is what allowed us to become modern humans
I think my body released some insulin just from reading this post
Vegans that eat 900 grams of grains per day – a recipe to cancer, diabetes and obesity…
heh, and maybe some cortisol too!!
On perceived differences between plants and animals as it relates to killing/eating them:
The differences named – sentience, pain, fear – are of no consequence if we’re talking simply about the killing of an animal with no mention of the method. For all we know, the animal’s sentience does not “come into play”, so to speak. For instance, if it were sleeping and given an injection it could not feel which killed it painlessly. The fact that it can feel pain sometimes makes no difference in this situation.
Indeed, using pain as a reason not to kill something isn’t sufficient. It’s only a sufficient reason not to *hurt* something. If pain were the reason not to kill something, it naturally follows that causing no pain is no problem.
An animal’s sentience is a complicated subject and I think it’s an arbitrarily drawn line. Personally, I believe human beings have value because they are capable of deep thoughts. They are at the very least much *more* capable than an animal to live a ‘meaningful’ life. In fact, from where I currently stand, I can say that if I were to endure some terrible accident and as a result was reduced to the mental capacity of animal, I would hope my family would pull the plug on me. I see no value in that existence. That is unless animals have MUCH deeper thoughts than I perceive them to.
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After listening to some or Dr McDougall’s talks I have to conclude that he is literally insane
I HAVE read his books. I have four of them. He completely cherry picks his studies, completely ignoring the “inconvenient ones”. This type of diet is suited to very few people and is self selecting in a way. You dont hear about the failures, or about the people who try it and can only tolerate it for a few days. His ideas that fat is the culprit in many chronic diseases are insane. His ideas about cholesterol levels and its role as the cause in chronic disease are insane. The idea than man is best suited to a vegan high starch is insane. Most of people eating a diet so high in starches will produce a large amount VLDL particles that have been implicated in heart disease. If a vegan diet were anyway viable or proper to humans we would see examples of vegan diets in traditional cultures. Name ONE. Grains and legumes are a very new addition to the human diet. They contain an enormous amount of anti-nutrients. It has been pointed out that as we age we lose the little tolerance we have for “the products of agriculture”and “diseases of civilization” result. Traditional hunter gatherers like the Inuit, Polynesians and plains Native Americans have absolutely no tolerance for agriculture and degenerate rapidly when its products are introduced into their diets. In my youth I was a macrobiotic vegan. I continued to get most of my calories from whole grains and legumes until I was about 60. I avoided all processed foods especially sugar and vegetable oils. My job required me to walk 2-5 miles daily. I found myself 40 lbs overweight, with debilitating GERD and arthritis. My triglycerides were high and cholesterol ratios bad. I decided to eliminate all animal products to improve things and things got worse. When I eliminated all grains,legumes and most carbs from my diet,and added more fat and animal products, the GERD went away in two days, the arthritis in ten. I lost over twenty lbs in two months, without effort or over exercising
And figuratively