Meet Mark

Let me introduce myself. My name is Mark Sisson. I’m 63 years young. I live and work in Malibu, California. In a past life I was a professional marathoner and triathlete. Now my life goal is to help 100 million people get healthy. I started this blog in 2006 to empower people to take full responsibility for their own health and enjoyment of life by investigating, discussing, and critically rethinking everything we’ve assumed to be true about health and wellness...

Tell Me More
Stay Connected
May 22, 2007

My Escape from Vegan Island

By Mark Sisson
703 Comments

Every once in a while, I am alternately stunned and amused by what I see being promoted in the name of good health. I had one of those “stunningly amusing” episodes when I took an eight-day vacation with my family to an all-vegetarian health and adventure retreat in Costa Rica several months ago. We had joined a group of 125 headed by Dr. John McDougall, an accomplished and well-respected physician who uses a strict vegetarian/vegan lifestyle to address disease states in his patients and (ostensibly) to promote better health among the general population. I wasn’t too keen on attending, strict carnivore that I am, but I’m always up for an experiment of one and, moreover, I was convinced by my mostly-vegetarian wife and her vegan parents that our extended family would enjoy a nice tropical vacation together. And the food promised to be so yummy… so I made the leap with my wife, two kids, the in-laws and some cousins.

Beautiful Costa Rica

First off, I must say, I did have a very enjoyable time in Costa Rica with my family, rafting, diving, zip lining and hiking…but after what I witnessed during my stay, I can assure you that I have never been so certain that the Primal Blueprint way of eating – which I have embraced for over 30 years now – is the best way to achieve and maintain excellent health. Frankly, I was appalled at both the information being disseminated during this event and at what I saw being served at every meal in the name of “health food.”

I am an omnivore and always have been. Carrie, my wife, was a vegetarian for fifteen years until I convinced her about five years ago to starting adding fish to her diet to get more protein. She still considers herself, in the words of the Outback Steakhouse guy, a “semi-veg.” My wife’s parents have been strict vegans for nearly thirty years and are ardent followers of Dr. McDougall. McDougall’s own story involves having had a severe stroke at age 19 from which, at 59, he still limps. He became an MD and eventually realized that diet was an important part of the health equation. He’s a very likable and charming guy. I had a few superficial discussions with him, even attended a few of his nightly lectures. His heart is certainly in the right place, but I fear he is leading people down a wholly inappropriate dietary path. At the risk of oversimplifying, the basis of his program is that almost all starch is good, all fat is bad and meat of any kind is deadly. It is, in his words, a “starch-based” diet, high in grains and legumes.

The attendees were generally divided into two groups: those who were fairly new to the program – many of them had some serious weight to lose – and those who had been on the McDougall program for several years. Many of the latter group, I gathered, had come to McDougall originally with one or more chronic diseases and on multiple medications. Each evening, after the adventure activity of the day (all of which were pretty sedate), Dr. McDougall would deliver a lecture intended to inform the group of the evils of traditional medicine and big pharma – much of which I generally agree with – and to demonize beef, pork, chicken, fish, dairy of all kinds and most forms of soy. I got the general gist after the first evening. He’s not a fan of supplements either. But he does imply that when you eat vegetarian, you can have all you want…and therein lay the source of much amusement for me.

The lecture would adjourn and everyone would line up for the buffet line which would, at virtually every meal, include copious amounts of breads and rolls, rice, potatoes, pasta, beans, some anemic-looking steamed vegetables and a romaine-only lettuce salad. No dressings allowed. The only fat I could see was in the guacamole that served as a spread. The desert table had a variety of fruits and at least two choices of so-called “healthy” cakes. The drinks were generally overly sweetened fruit drinks.

Now I’m not one to judge. Okay, I am, but I usually keep my mouth shut – except herein. I watched at every meal as overweight, unhealthy people piled their plates with at least two pounds of bread, pasta, rice, potatoes, beans, desert cake, and a glass of fruit juice. Sometimes they went back for more. By my calculations these people were consuming 200 to 300 or more grams of (mostly simple) carbohydrates at each of three meals. There was no way these folks were going to lose fat on this trip. It was, in my view, a type 2 diabetes epidemic in-the-making.

In fending for myself, I focused mainly on the salads and the black beans mixed with a little rice. As you regular readers know, I don’t “do” breads, potatoes, pasta, desserts or fruit drinks. I think they are unhealthy. Go figure. I have to say, it sure got old after a day or two.

Carbfest

This is Kina’s Flickr Photo

Of those who had already been on the McDougall program for years, I had the following general observation: they don’t look too healthy. People who subsist on grains and simple carbs at the expense of quality protein for any length of time tend to lose muscle mass, regardless of their exercise regimen. They are what we call “skinny fat“. Essentially, they have no lean tissue and yet they have surprisingly high body fat levels, despite their loose “skin and bones” appearance. Lean body mass is a major defining criterion of good health; and these folks were sorely lacking. Excess carbohydrate turns to fat pretty easily, but you can neither build nor preserve muscle with it. Herein lies the confusion for many folks: while glucose serves as short-term fuel for muscles, it does not build nor maintain them. One woman, a 62-year old triathlete who trains hours a day and competes almost every weekend authoritatively suggested that I was a fool to eat meat and that I should embrace the McDougall program as she had for 15 years. Problem was, she looked like hell. No muscle tone at all and, I suspect, a fairly high body fat for someone who fancied herself an athlete. It took all I had to keep from saying something that might have spoiled her trip!

As with any diet regimen, Dr. McDougall backs his theories up with studies. But that’s the biggest problem with the “science” of nutrition: anyone can find a study here or there that supports almost any premise. To wit: Fish is great because it’s a source of important Omega 3 fats, but fish is bad because it’s a source of toxic heavy metals, but fish is great because the heavy metals are not actually present at realistically dangerous levels, but fish is bad because the fish lobby was the one funding the study on relative safety, and on ad infinitum.

If there were a right answer, everyone would be doing it. I guess the best any of us can do is to align the “receptivity filters” in our brains with our current belief systems and create habits that reinforce those beliefs – and that, hopefully, result in healthy bodies and minds. Ultimately, I have chosen to believe that we were programmed to eat primarily small portions of meat and vegetables, with a little fruit thrown in occasionally. It works for me (53 years old, 5’10” 165 lbs and 8% body fat).

Life's a beach!

Problem is, if you have no understanding of biology or chemistry, you can easily fall for that old vegan argument that meat is bad (notwithstanding the fact that there has never, in the entire history of man, been a country, culture or race that subsisted entirely on vegetables without animal flesh of some kind). Many people do fall for it. They also fall for the old “protein leaches calcium” argument, completely ignoring the fact that bones require protein as well as weight bearing activity to promote bone density and prevent osteoporosis. Or that stress has a far greater impact on preventing absorption of calcium than excess protein in the diet. But here I am giving you my opinion again and it’s only based on studies that my filters have shown align with my own beliefs…

I was fascinated by what I saw to be the complete antithesis of a healthy diet being offered up as the healthiest way to eat. And by people willing to accept that they could eat all they want of this high-carb fare and regain their lost health in the process. Try as I might, I couldn’t avoid losing a few pounds of hard-fought muscle myself over the week. Luckily, I was able to regain homeostasis shortly after returning home. And ultimately, I was left with a confidence that following Primal Blueprint path is exactly what humans were designed to do.

What are your thoughts on vegetarianism, carbohydrates, and protein?

Be sure to stick around for today’s Tuesday 10.

Best of MDA

(This piece was originally posted at my friend Art DeVany’s blog.)

[tags] Costa Rica, Dr. McDougall, vegan, vegetarian, carbohydrates, starch, protein, diabetes [/tags]

Did you like this piece? Or do you think I’m a misguided carnivore? Give it a Digg and get the conversation started!


Sponsor note:

This post was brought to you by the Damage Control Master Formula, independently proven as the most comprehensive high-potency antioxidant multivitamin available anywhere. With the highest antioxidant per dollar value and a complete anti-aging, stress, and cognition profile, the Master Formula is truly the only multivitamin supplement you will ever need. Toss out the drawers full of dozens of different supplements with questionable potency and efficacy and experience the proven Damage Control difference!

TAGS:  vegetarianism

Subscribe to the Newsletter

If you'd like to add an avatar to all of your comments click here!

Leave a Reply

672 Comments on "My Escape from Vegan Island"

avatar

Sort by:   newest | oldest
Lee
Lee
9 years 4 months ago

Go figure. When I first became a vegetarian, I put on a LOT of weight. I’ve since given it up after a CBC showed high cholesterol and anemia, but I still have a bad high GI carb habit.

joel
joel
5 years 2 months ago

I was a vegetarian for years and I was overweight, developed diabetes and high blood pressure. I switched to a high fat carbohydrate restricted diet and lost the weight and the diabetes and the high blood pressure.

Jackie
9 years 4 months ago

Hey. . .just surfing along. . .interesting blog entry. 🙂 I don’t necessarily follow the McDougall program, but can say that since I gave up animal products a couple years ago, I feel far healthier and energetic. I went down from 200 lbs eating anything I want, but now maintain a healthy wait of 135 at 5’10”. I no longer have asthma, no longer am tired, and never get sick anymore. I used to get sick at least twice a year. My personal feeling is that it’s the best choice I ever made for myself.

Hey, you asked. 😉

Dana
Dana
5 years 9 months ago
Anyone cutting out junk is going to get some good results. I tried the blood type diet several years ago. I’m Type O, and contrary to popular myth, that version of the diet is not carnivorous and not even particularly low-carb. But it does require you to get off of wheat. Just switching from wheat to quinoa, rice, and amaranth let me lose a noticeable amount of weight. What’s your grain intake like? Your soy intake? Did you ever try grass-fed/grass-finished animal products or did you just quit the CAFO stuff? Insufficient data here. 🙂
Eva
Eva
3 years 10 months ago

You could reply the exact same thing to anyone who lost weight and is feeling healthier on the paleo diet. Most diets work as long as you stick to them.

Josh
Josh
3 years 5 months ago
That’s a lie. The paleo “diet” is great for carnivores, but since we’ve long evolved away from being Neanderthals (who were carnivorous omnivores) and then evolved into omnivores (which are basically nature’s opportunists) the pattern is then to become omnivore/herbivore until the barbaric ways of early man are left behind along with excess hair, rendering us herbivores. Despite being very adaptable, we can’t fight the rhythm of evolution. There are major facts to be considered in our physical makeup. A carnivore’s intestines are short (for quicker evacuation of carcass) and its stomach is highly acidic (to break down carcass). An… Read more »
PepperCulpepper
2 years 5 months ago

This comment is directed at Josh who said: “We’ve long evolved away from Neanderthals.

I just thought you should know that H. sapiens and H. neanderthalensis
are 2 different species and we did not “evolve from” them, yet we are related TO them.

Janalina
Janalina
5 years 3 months ago
Eliminating a major component of one’s nutritional intake would result in weight loss. You may have seen similar results if you decided to give up grains instead of animal products and I suspect your overall feeling of vitality has less to do with the elimination of animal products and more to do with a significant weightless and, likely, a more active role in managing your health and fitness. Since April I have adopted a lifestyle change that includes A LOT of physical activity coupled with consuming fewer carbs, zero “bad” carbs, more lean protein, whole foods, fruit, veggies and supplements.… Read more »
Kris
2 years 10 months ago

Josh, I would love to hear what you think is the healthiest way of eating. Vegan?

Joe
1 year 3 months ago

Of course VEGAN. That article is also missing the point that meat raises insulin more than starch, leading to diabetes faster.

Paleo Huntress
Paleo Huntress
1 year 3 months ago

Transient elevated insulin is normal, it is chronically elevated insulin that’s a problem. Diets high in meat do not increase insulin resistance.

You should read this entry from Mark on the Insulin Index before you post something like that again.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/insulin-index/#axzz3ihpa0c96

Deb
Deb
1 year 3 months ago

Joe,
I am a type 1 auto-immune diabetic. My blood sugar does not spike markedly after protein and fat has no real impact. Gimme bread, pasta, desserts and I will give you a bs reading of 300+ within 30 min. You are fundamentally wrong. There is marginal insulin response in non-diabetics, and little need for exogenous insulin to cover protein in less than an 6-8oz serving.

Jabalong
Jabalong
4 years 11 months ago

Same here. I went veg about 10 years and am in the best shape of my life. I hit the gym regularly and have more enegy than my meat-eating friends. And same on getting sick, it almost never happens to me. This is to say thatveg is the only way, but that veg is one option that shouldn’t be discounted.

Kris
2 years 10 months ago
I seem to swing between paleo and veg in my thoughts. I tried primal and got so stopped up that in the end I spent $400 on a GI specialist that wanted to run test amounting close to $4000 and get on MiraLax daily for the rest of my life. I said “No thanks” and swung more vegetarian–still with meat about once a day. Once I added grains back (about once a day) and limited meat to once a day, my body began to heal. I still bloat like a balloon if I skip enzymes or HCL, so the journey… Read more »
Greg
Greg
2 years 10 months ago
Might I suggest the book Healing with Whole Foods by Paul Pitchford…It’s grounded in Chinese medicine and the author apprenticed with monks and has a master’s in nutrition from Harvard. I have found that eating meat once a day (2-3 ounces max) at noon is important. I eat no more than 1/2 ounce of nuts, very little fruit and otherwise I eat 40-50% white rice and oats cooked together in a 3:1 ratio of rice to whole oat groats that have been freshly rolled. I eat 30-40% vegetables. Ayurveda is a great starting point for nailing down your constitutional type,… Read more »
Laura
Laura
2 years 9 months ago

google vegan bodybuilder…the comment by Mark of loss of muscle is not factual.
In every manner of eating one can junk or true foods.

Paleo Huntress
Paleo Huntress
2 years 9 months ago

These are the top ten body builders of all time-

Ronnie Coleman
Gunter Schlierkamp
Markus Ruhl
Kai Green
Dorian Yates
Arnold Schwarzenegger
Lou Ferrigno
Victor Martinez
Victor Richards
Dennis Wolf

Do you know how many are vegan?

Zero

Sure if you stress your body with heavy weight, it will take whatever protein you give it and it’ll grow… but as long as you’re competing against omnis, you’ll never be the biggest.

And for the typical person who isn’t lifting heavy, they will lose muscle on a vegan diet.

Morgan
Morgan
2 years 6 months ago

same happened to me, was gung ho about paleo became constipated and lost my period. I wasn’t the least bit skeptical. I was all in, thought it would work, if it did, I would tell you. I started adding back the foods I eliminated at the behest of Matt Stone and I’m pooping again and feeling better, although my period hasn’t restarted. I think paleo is dangerous and a waste of money and I feel bad for the people who get sick on it thinking they are helping themselves.

Paleo Huntress
Paleo Huntress
2 years 6 months ago
Paleo is a template, not a diet. Saying you ate a paleo diet is about as descriptive as saying you ate an “American” diet. Paleo can be high or low fiber, high or low fat, high or low protein, high or low carb. It can be almost vegan or almost carnivorous. If you weren’t getting enough fiber to move your bowels or carbohydrate to normalize your menses, the answer is to eat more fibrous foods and/or fruits and tubers. If the only way you could manage this was to eat grains, that just shows your lack of imagination with regard… Read more »
Loki
Loki
2 years 4 months ago

@Laura If you google “vegen bodybuilder” you will see they get their protein from 3x a day protein shakes. I’d hardly call that “vegan”.

steffo
steffo
3 years 2 months ago

+1

Tyler
Tyler
2 years 8 months ago

How many of those bodybuilders were on steroids and/or isolated protein powders?

And you forgot Jack LaLanne.

Paleo Huntress
Paleo Huntress
2 years 8 months ago

Tyler,

I have no idea… but vegan body builders also use steroids and/or vegan protein powders. ~shrugs~

LaLanne doesn’t come up in the top 10.

Tyler
Tyler
2 years 8 months ago

Top 10 bodybuilders based on what parameter?

I admire the work ethic of those gentlemen, but personally I find them sorta freakish.

LaLanne was one of the fittest humans who ever walked this earth.

Paleo Huntress
Paleo Huntress
2 years 8 months ago

Tyler,

Based on their winnings.

My comment was intended to evidence the fact that vegan body builders DON’T build muscle as well as omni body builders, it wasn’t to promote the sport itself. I’m a LaLanne fan, always have been. He promoted both omnivorism and moderate to low-carb. No matter what your sport, you will sacrifice something in order to excel at it. But the people involved in the sport have the right to choose it.

3 minute video of Jack LaLanne Giving Nutrition Advice

Michelle
Michelle
2 years 8 months ago

Jack LaLannne wasn’t a vegan. According to three of his books that I read he ate egg whites and fish everyday.

Tyler
Tyler
2 years 8 months ago

Who said LaLanne was a vegan?

“My comment was intended to evidence the fact that vegan body builders DON’T build muscle as well as omni body builders.”

Can you present the evidence for this statement, please?
Preferably a study where none of the participants are using steroids and / or isolated protein extracts, for the study to have any true relevance.

Victor
Victor
2 years 7 months ago
A number of the people on that list have openly admitted to steroid use for starters, so if his intent was to exemplify those men as paragons of primal eating over vegan eating he largely fudged the bucket there, and furthermore, why even bring them up? Seems empty to even cite them as last time I checked this site was not about bodybuilding, rather healthy primal/paleo living. Instead he cited the list because he has no real other arguments against veganism beside the typical dismissive propaganda that only sissies are vegan, that God forbid a differing diet work better for… Read more »
Paleo Huntress
Paleo Huntress
2 years 7 months ago

No Victor, the intent wasn’t “to exemplify those men as paragons of primal eating over vegan eating”. It was to exemplify the failure of vegan bodybuilders to outperform OMNI body builders. As mentioned, vegans are no less likely to use steroids or concentrated protein sources than omnis and they still fall short of omni performance.

Geni
Geni
2 years 11 months ago
Its not that you became vegan or vegetarian that made you feel better, but the cleansing and detoxing that occurred in your body through the vegan/vegetarian diet, you cleanse from GMO, MSG, sugars, refined starches, it was not the meats, cheese and eggs that made you sick it was the bad meats, non-organic eggs and bad milk you consumed. Just like it took time to make you sick from bad proteins combined with bad starches, sooner or later you will get sick from to much cleansing, you will destroy your immune system and than you will blame vegan/vegetarianism that made… Read more »
robb
robb
9 months 15 days ago

That too was my experience after I gave up the meat^and went vegetarian–just saying-i think the proof was in the bloodwork.My try’s and A1C
took a nose dive and more importatntly I felt better internally–energy!!!

Paleo Huntress
Paleo Huntress
9 months 15 days ago

Agreed, the proof that going vegetarian works for you is in your blood-work.

Good call!

Guess what?

Others find the polar opposite… and it’s just as true for them.

Victoria
9 years 4 months ago
Great blog! I have never seen a healthy energy field (through my “3rd eye”). Ditto for yoga. Meat is grounding as it is required for the DNA to properly replicate itself. “Like needs like,” and we humans are more like animals than plants. Vegetarians tend to be spacey, or “ungrounded,” if you will… I once asked Dr. McDougall how people were going to get adequate fatty acids to maintain healthy brains on a low saturated fat diet. Fatty acids are derived from cholesterol which comes from saturated fat. Is it consequential that there has been a rise in Alzheimer’s Disease… Read more »
Dana
Dana
5 years 9 months ago
I laugh when veg*ns try to guilt-trip me out of meat-eating with a “you are what you eat.” Yes, and I’m an animal. Not a wheat stalk or a soy plant. Thanks for playing, please drive through. 🙂 Can’t agree about the calorie comment though. If you burned every single calorie you ever ate, you’d die. It is not a matter of “either burn the calorie or store it as fat.” Where do you think your body parts come from? They must be maintained throughout life; you don’t die with the exact same set of cells you were born with.… Read more »
Tim Davydov
Tim Davydov
4 years 7 months ago

If we are animals, lets behave like animals all the time. Fight for females we like. Strongest one gets to have sex, and weak never will.
Its not just about health. Watch cows being slaughtered. Its inhumane.

Brian
Brian
4 years 7 months ago

Then there wouldn’t be many vegetarians left…

Jason
Jason
4 years 6 months ago

Maybe conventional grain fed cows but the people on this site eat mostly grass fed beef which is humanely raised and humanely killed. And yes I have seen how cows as well as chicken and pigs are treated and killed in factory farms, but factory farmed meat is not the only choice.

Dan
Dan
4 years 5 months ago

We are animals.. and we are acting like animals, all the time. You’re acting like a human animal by making a diet choice based on ethics.

Anyway, is eating a living carrot inhumane also? Just because it doesn’t react in a way you can relate to doesn’t mean you haven’t taken another organisms life to sustain your own.

Ryan
3 years 9 months ago

http://www.bulletproofexec.com/carl-lewis-vegan/

The cows being slaughtered thing is a joke. Stop perpetuating that.

And let’s quit with the anecdotal evidence – and post up your blood work. Mine’s phenomenal avoiding sugar, grains and dairy. Let’s see some vegan blood work.

Morgan
Morgan
2 years 6 months ago

‘strongest get to have sex’ , ‘fight for females’, only if you’re talking about rape and not consent, what are we cats?.

Kennyglasgow
Kennyglasgow
1 year 6 months ago

This point is fact. Women are attracted to a strong masculan male

Amanda
Amanda
4 years 2 months ago
This is the most ridiculous arguement for eating meat that I have likely ever read. I’mnot trying to be rude, but you’re opinion’s here are extremely insular and twisted to fit your purpose. “yes, and I’m an animal, not a wheat stalk or a soy plant”…this seems to allude to all animale consuming meat as a means of survival when, in fact, many animals are vegetarian, including, most notably, many of our closest counterparts in the primate family. If a giant gorilla can survive on banana’s, I’m pretty sure it’s safe to assume so can a human. “Food is not… Read more »
daniel
daniel
4 years 1 month ago

You call “This is the most ridiculous arguement(sic) for eating meat that I have likely ever read.” because you even didn’t understand what was being said. Sad.

smileyanne1
smileyanne1
3 years 9 months ago

“humanely killed” – in my books that’s an oxymoron.

Gary
Gary
3 years 8 months ago
Like it or not research based content of Dr. McDougall books’ are factual as indicated with an index chocked full of supporting impressive documentation . Nathan Prtitikin, Dean Ornish, Dr. Neal Barnard (Physicians For Responsible Medicine) and many others all support this lifestyle. Why ? because it is true and research based with study after syudy supporting the same facts. Another research based publication ” The China Study” is wonderfully research based publication that supports these medical philosophies with detailed analysis on a comparative worldwide scale . Once more proving a Vegan life style is the smarter choice. Food is… Read more »
paleohuntress
paleohuntress
3 years 8 months ago

Wow, you know you’re dealing with a vegan zealot when he comes to a Paleo site and refers to The China Study as a “wonderfully research based publication”. ~rolls eyes~ Actually, the China-Cornell-Oxford Project was some wonderful research, sadly, The China Study was a book based on some incredibly flawed conclusions drawn from some excellent data. In fact, so flawed that only a publisher of fictional novels would print it.

Extra carbohydrate is stored as fat preferentially over fat and protein. We have proof in the form of what is known as ‘scientific data’.

~Huntress

paleohuntress
paleohuntress
3 years 8 months ago
Gary, “As to your remark as to the publishing company, let’s not waste time on that point clearly it has been sold in mass, nationally and internationally. So who cares who published it. Publishing is about distribution and cutting the right deal.” I believe you may have misunderstood MY point. It wasn’t about who did publish him, but rather about who WOULDN’T. “To your remark , “Extra carbohydrate is stored as fat preferentially over fat and protein”. Look again—- I believe you missed the main idea so to clarify the point I have quoted the text.” I’m sorry Gary, but… Read more »
Deb
Deb
1 year 3 months ago

When are they stored? How quickly after eating? Glucose (carbs broken down in the blood stream) are, when in excess, indeed stored as fat, and I think rather quickly, because elevated blood sugar is toxic, and the body need to clear it. If the muscle cells and other cells are either “full” or can’t properly appropriate glucose because of insulin resistance, the insulin will guide that energy into fat cells, which become insulin resistant far later than other cells (if ever).

Melia
Melia
3 years 1 month ago

I Lol’d at the “your are what you eat” part… because judging from your photos you indeed look like a fat piggy. 😀

Geni
Geni
2 years 11 months ago

Loved your comment.

Kennyglasgow
Kennyglasgow
1 year 6 months ago

Brilliantly put

catherine
catherine
5 years 4 months ago

you produce your own cholesterol according to your needs. the same way animals produce their own for their need. You just happen to eat what the animal has produced even though you don’t need the extra. Have you ever heard of a cholesteral deficiency? Neither have I….

Anon
3 years 5 months ago

Yes, actually, there is such a thing as cholesterol deficiency. The medical term for it is hypocholesterolemia, and one of its causes is malnutrition.

Timothy
Timothy
9 years 3 months ago
I am an absolutely healthy vegan. My doc says I have the heart of a 20 year old (I am 39.7543 – lol) It does not look like the Dr. McD’s diet is very wise (and I am suspect of critiques by “strict carnivores”) but that does not discount all vegetarian or vegan diets. I am suspect of Sensibility is key. My “beef” with meat is simple: there is no way to produce it in a humane way, i.e., there is no way to nicely kill another. Simple as that. I won’t ask for others to be killed for my… Read more »
pjnoir
pjnoir
7 years 4 months ago

Fool- fast food or McD’s is not the diet a primal would eat. All meat is not equal. You have to eat CLEAN grass fed meats. Killing for food happens is a way of life. Do you pick up fruit that fell off the tree from the ground or do you ‘HARVEST’ whil it is still alive? It is about being Human- we are what we are. Disney gave animal faces and voices and for a huge Profit.

Brandi
Brandi
4 years 11 months ago
I agree that it depends on the way the diet is presented. Not all low carb diets are correct and not all vegan diets are correct. I had to go vegetarian then vegan a few years ago due to the fact that my pancreas shuts down when I ingest meat. Even fish and grass fed meats did not work for me as my body could not handle it. I believe that everyone’s body is unique to them and you have to find a balance that fits your own lifestyle and body, some times this means experimenting with a few options… Read more »
sam
sam
4 years 10 months ago

I agree. I personally have little wrong with my body, but my brain is very messed up (I have been diagnosed with OCPD (not OCD, OCPD is an autism-spectrum obsession disorder), severe Tourette’s Syndrome, ADHD and potentially a mild form of Aspergers), and I find that eating well helps tremendously. I am an omnivore (carnivores eat only meat), but I don’t underestimate a healthy diet!

Margueritte H.
Margueritte H.
3 years 3 months ago
FINALLY, I read some true wisdom within this whole string of “my way of eating is better than yours” Pissing Contest. I try to go by an old doctor’s advice, “Everything in Moderation”. The way I see it, this phrase does not mean that one should eat a bit of everything. It means that a person should personally find out what makes THEIR body feel and operate at an optimum level. In other words, find what is “moderate for you”. Everyone was not made the same, so why some of these commenters insist on pushing their philosophy as the ONLY… Read more »
meagain
meagain
4 years 10 months ago
When Timothy says, “It does not look like the Dr. McD’s diet is very wise” he is clearly talking about the Dr. McDougall diet. You, pjnoir, seem to be taking offense and thinking he is talking about McDonalds. Clearly, eating a bunch of doughnuts is not a good vegetarian diet, any more than eating a bunch of Big Macs is not a good primal/paleo diet. Mark’s original point fails because he’s using a bunch of idiots eating croissants and sweet rolls who “look unhealthy” as proof that eating vegetarian/vegan is bad for you. I could just as easily point to… Read more »
Karl Hungus
Karl Hungus
3 years 11 months ago

Well-stated, Meagain.

Molo
Molo
4 years 3 months ago

Seems like you did not read the post you replied to. It is obvious from the context that “Dr. McD’s diet” was not a reference to McDonald’s. It was mentioned as an example of a vegan diet for *** sake!

Ann
Ann
3 years 6 months ago

Beautifully and accurately stated!

Lindsay
7 years 1 month ago

ALL vegetarians and vegans and Mark! I would recommend a book called The Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith.

JYC
JYC
6 years 8 months ago

Then you shouldn’t eat plants either. After all, they are also killed for your benefit. I’m sure you’ll argue that it’s better to kill plants, since they allegedly have less sentience than animals, but killing is killing.

the better perspective is Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall’s, which is to simply give proper respect to whatever died to sustain you. Nothing is sustained in this world without something having to die.

Jack Schaefer
Jack Schaefer
4 years 10 months ago

People do this. It is not so far fetched. It is called being a “fruititarian.”

meagain
meagain
4 years 10 months ago

That’s a really silly argumentum ad absurdum, similar to the “if gay marriage is okay than people will also start marrying their dogs” nonsense. Animals have an intelligence and capacity for feeling pain and emotion that plants do not. No amount of rationalizing will change that.

Justin
Justin
4 years 9 months ago

Plants do not have a central nervous system, do not actively run away from us and desperately try to avoid slaughter and lastly do not squeal in pain when being killed. There is no equivalence between killing an animal and a plant.

whiverjoli
whiverjoli
4 years 5 months ago

I became vegetarian after following amostly paleo diet and I feel very clean! To say you should not eat plants either is not a smart argument. I think some of you forget that the paleo diet is not all about eating meat. The health benefits from paleo do not come just from eating meat. Consider what you are not eating and what you are mainly eating. Alot of vegetables and salad and protein. Eating factory farmed meat is unethical and unhealthy. Do you really think it is okay to eat a factory farmed animal just because meat is primal?

Kyla Mckinney
Kyla Mckinney
3 years 1 month ago

If “killing is killing” then you and I are really no different than people like Jeffrey Dahmer or any other murder or serial killer. After all, I have “killed” carrots before! Really though, if you honestly believe that taking the life of a very sentient mammal is no different ethically than picking a non sentient root vegetable out of the ground then please do the world a favor and at least don’t reproduce. I can’t even believe any sane human being tries to make a serious argument out of something so illogical.

Genya
Genya
6 years 1 month ago

Vegetarians don’t eat meat NOT because
they love animals – they just truly hate plants 🙂

Dave Michaels
Dave Michaels
5 years 3 months ago

Then after reading the book, google vegetarian/vegan bodybuilding.

Is it the lifestyle that’s faulty or rather poor education and implementation among those who’ve tried and failed?

My experience is the latter.

Virginia
Virginia
5 years 10 months ago

But what of plants? Aren’t they living too?

Dana
Dana
5 years 9 months ago
So plants are inanimate objects, then? And you don’t mind all the “vermin” that were slaughtered in the fields because they were getting at your food crops? Face it, your diet will involve the death of animals whether or not you wind up eating them. If I were to go out and shoot a deer, I’d be responsible for exactly one animal death. If I eat tofu instead, I’m responsible for the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of insects and rodents and other denizens of Kingdom Animalia. I think I know which option is more humane, especially if I… Read more »
Natalia
Natalia
5 years 7 months ago

Another point to add is that all animals die. Hunting for meat, not trophies, must be the most humane death because it allows an animal to live perfectly natural life, but, small-scale farms (one of which I have lived on all of my life) also yield humanely killed animals. I figure that if chickens–my animal of choice–have to die, I might as well be the one to kill them, because I’ll give them a proper life and a humane death.

catherine
catherine
5 years 6 months ago

What do you think animals are fed? Pesticide-ridden grains (and other grinded animals)which accumulates in their fat as all toxic substances do. Now it takes way more pounds of vegetal protein to produce only one pound of meat protein so if you do the math, you end up with more pesticides (plus growth hormones, antibiotics, and what else we don’t know about) if you eat meat. Just saying…

Lark
Lark
5 years 3 months ago

The animals I eat are for the most part NOT fed grains (they eat natural, native, sustainable grass and other forage), and the ones that do eat grains (chicken and pork) are fed organic grain. For the most part, the animals I eat convert low-protein, fibrous, nutrient poor vegetation into healthy, high-quality, nutrient rich protein and fat and they do it without needing growth hormones, antibiotics etc. and furthermore they do it without needing to destroy the top soil and the natural animal and plant communities for industrial soy or grain monocropping. Unlike your tofu.

Justin
Justin
4 years 9 months ago

Can I kill your dog ? It’s ok right ? You know, because I am going to eat it.

Xfingxfing
Xfingxfing
3 years 11 months ago

Vegans are a lot like atheists, it’s all about being against someone or something, not too much about what they’re for….notice even when they’re supposedly extolling the virtues of thier life choices they take every opportunity to say something inflamitory or derogatory…being negative even when they’re “being positive”. Like ok, so you might say you don’t eat meat because you don’t feel comfortable killing a living creature….fine….but then almost without exception and unnecessarily they’ll add…unlike other people who are evil, murdering, animal hating bastards. Yes, a bit dramatic on my part, but I think you get the idea.

GOD
GOD
1 month 24 days ago

Vegans are like Jehovah’s Witnesses says this Atheist!

Demetra Conklin
Demetra Conklin
1 year 10 months ago

In many countries, the killing and eating of dogs is very acceptable. Unless we are hypocrites, then we must support other cultures in their choice to consume dog, dolphin, whale , horse meat, etc. Otherwise, we are practicing speceisism.

Tyler
Tyler
2 years 8 months ago

The only problem is most soy and corn is harvested to feed meat-animals, not humans. So a lot of the collateral field-kill from crop harvest falls on the shoulders of meat-eaters. Most meat-eaters eat a goodly amount of plants as well.

tslate
tslate
4 years 9 months ago
There isn’t space to cover this adequately however animals and even humans are killed for your benefit everyday whether you ask or not. You cannot morally “opt” out unless you leave modern society altogether and not just by being vegan. That said, veganism is only capable of existing (and never has existed before) b/c of modern convenience. If you had to fight for your existence (in many ways) you’d be sucking down animal protein whenever you could. Just b/c a vegan eschews animal protein philisophically doesn’t mean that animals are not killed for your benefit. All the hard physical labor… Read more »
CH
CH
4 years 7 months ago
You are wrong. Many people live humanely and obstain from purchasing or consuming anything that was produced in a cruel manner. Most vegans are very educated on the subject and “practice what they preach”, so to speak. As for “get(ing) off your moral high ground like right about now”, the question was asked, “What are your thoughts on vegetarianism, carbohydrates, and protein?”, by the author. This is an open discussion in an open forum, hence the replies from those who don’t necessarily agree with the post. It’s too bad you can’t be open-minded and be respectful of those with a… Read more »
Matt
Matt
4 years 7 months ago

What is the difference between killing a plant and killing an animal? Both are living beings. If you don’t draw the line at sentience where do you draw it?

Tyler
Tyler
2 years 8 months ago

Plants can obviously respond to stimuli, but have no central nervous system. There is no point in an organism being able to feel pain unless that organism has a way of evading that pain, i.e. mobility. As well, you can hack off part of a plant, and in most cases, the plant lives on. Not always the case with animals.

Paleo Huntress
Paleo Huntress
2 years 8 months ago

It seems that they may indeed have a central nervous system.

http://www.smithsonianchannel.com/sc/web/video/titles/12151/do-plants-respond-to-pain

Crustaceans such as barnacles feel pain, but they’re not able to evade that pain. So while I see some sense in the claim, it doesn’t appear to apply universally.

As for the pain an animal feels when it it killed, this would apply to animals killed accidentally for plant foods as well. So the argument for avoiding animal food out of a desire to avoid causing pain is admirable, though specious– unless you’re also avoiding the agriculture most responsible for collateral deaths (cereals and legumes).

Tyler
Tyler
2 years 8 months ago

Barnacles are animals, not plants. Mother Nature is pretty smart. Plants most certainly respond to stimuli, but feeling pain without being able to evade it would confer no evolutionary advantage.

The majority of the products of the agriculture most responsible for the collateral field deaths of small animals go into the mouths of animals raised for meat. That puts the average meat-eater on the hook as much as, or more than, the average veg*n.

Kristina
Kristina
4 years 6 months ago

Yet it’s OK to kill plants? Maybe you should follow through on your moral reasoning and stop eating all together.

Tyler
Tyler
2 years 8 months ago

A lot of plants aren’t “killed” when parts of them are used for food. I picked beautiful green apples from a tree near me for years. Every year there would be another bumper crop. Omnivores eat (or should eat) a lot of plants, whether at source, or cycled through a meat-animal.

Bee
Bee
4 years 2 months ago

What is your vegan diet like, specifically? I’d love to see a diet log, as I am vegan, but am trying to make it more balanced. Seeing what u do would really help! Thanks!

Tyler
Tyler
4 years 2 months ago

Want a more balanced diet? Add meat and offal.

Nancy Nurse
Nancy Nurse
4 years 12 days ago
I couldn’t agree with you more! To take a life so that I may eat a slab of it’s flesh for my dinner is so arrogant and so wrong! I was having daily anginal pains, heart palpitations, knee pain, super high cholesterol (almost 300) & overweight. I attended Dr. McDougall’s program and in one day, my chest pain & palpitations were gone and have never returned. My cholesterol dropped by 88 points, knee pain gone within two weeks. I started losing weight at the rate of a pound a day! And that’s WITHOUT exercising at all!!! There are so many… Read more »
Wyandotte
Wyandotte
4 years 12 days ago
Thank you for your story; I have no doubt that your Dr McDougall-type regimen has given you the wonderful health and removal of symptoms you describe. Further, I have no doubt that the low-carb, healthy-fat paleo folk also enjoy their good health as a result of their diet. So, all of you, let’s hear back in 15-20 years, okay? Because both regimens, not to mention raw-foodism, fruitarianism, zone diet, macrobiotics, and so many others, are all therapeutic diets. There’s no Forever Diet. To stay healthy on any of these year after year is not doable; you’ll have to make some… Read more »
Xfingxfing
Xfingxfing
3 years 11 months ago

Nancy…thank you for sharing your good will to we who are dying all around you, we who horrifically take the lives of beautiful creatures by grabbing and tearing apart our prey with poorly designed claws and teeth and try to digest the rotting meat with insufficient enzymes, regardless of the fact that you’re just so bloody bereft of facts, it’s just….I dunno, so touching that you wish us all so well even though apparently we’re fiendish anathemas to everything so pathetically idiotic you espouse…you’re wonderful dear. Deer is wonderful, you should try it.

Xfingxfing
Xfingxfing
3 years 11 months ago

BTW…yes there’s all kinds of nasty stuff in industrially farmed meats, which one can make a good attempt at avoiding by going organic as long as you understand the guidelines, like free range could be ok, free run don’t mean nothin’, and you’re significantly better off eating wild meats or Canadian horse meat. But to the Vegist, how you gonna get around all the GMOs?

Soylent Green is Corn!

Xfingxfing
Xfingxfing
3 years 11 months ago

What about all the living creatures whose habitats are destroyed to grow crops, and all the insects which must be destroyed to protect crops?

Lia
Lia
3 years 10 months ago
Vegans who do not eat meat because killing an animal for food is “inhumane”, I have a question: where do you draw the line on killing animals? You will not eat animal meat because in order to do so, you need to kill the animal. OK, I can understand that, although I do have my own views on it. But what if you had a problem with mice in your house, for example? Would you not set out traps to kill the mice because that would be too inhumane? What about ants? They are still living creatures even if they… Read more »
trajayjay
trajayjay
3 years 5 months ago
The example you gave about mouse traps, I think that you have a right to defend yourself in your own home. It’s like if you try to enter a bear’s cave, you’re probably going to get attacked, or if you try to mess with a beehive, you’re going to get stung. The bees and the bears are both trying to defend themselves against what they think is an invader. Same thing with the mouse, if the mouse tries to mess with your abode, you have a right to defend yourself. This might end up in killing them, but I think… Read more »
Tony
Tony
3 years 5 months ago
I couldn’t agree more…many of the moral arguments put forth by those for whom meat is a daily staple are totally bunk… Case in point: “where do you draw the line on killing animals?” The moral basis for veganism is solid in and of itself…however, even if one could find fault with the moral arguments, consuming beef, chicken, and pork on a daily basis will probably not be sustainable for much longer…Declining grain yields, rising population, falling water tables, plus many other factors are contributing to increased food shortages…animal meat is simply too resource-intensive for us as a society to… Read more »
Wyandotte
Wyandotte
3 years 5 months ago

Tony, there are too da*n many people on this planet even if every last one of them consumed enough plant food to stay healthy and lived in little huts and caves and didn’t use the earth’s resources for anything other than food. It’s true.

Kyla Mckinney
Kyla Mckinney
3 years 1 month ago
What is it with people? A person makes an attempt to refrain from supporting that which they disagree with ie killing in order to satisfy ones palate and all of a sudden everyone else A) is defensive about their own diet B ) expects you to basically live like Buddha. If you are willing to go without a certain food group then you should be willing to give up your life for the same cause ie cease to exist because you might accidently harm something. The point of being vegan is to try to avoid harming animals when it is… Read more »
Jay
Jay
1 month 22 days ago

I suppose we should try to convince lions, tigers and bears to go vegan? Oh my!

Tom Orlando
Tom Orlando
9 years 3 months ago
I can’t resist, although I have commented on being vegatarian previously. I am 71 and have been a vegetarian for 15 years. I did it originally because of marrying a vegan lady, but then I (sumultaneously) got colon cancer and eventually learned that colon causing polyps were no longer forming inside. Previous to veget. diet my colon could have as many as 8 polyps a year; after becoming vegetarian, I have never had another polyp (in ~15 years). Also, I had an oncologist tell me at an annual exam that meat is the main cause of colon cancer. Lastly, I… Read more »
Dana
Dana
5 years 9 months ago
The human brain is too large to be fed on a plant diet with the amount of colon we have been blessed with–the colon is the part of the intestine in mammals that deals with plant matter and ours is not long at all. The small intestine is what deals with meat (well, that and the stomach for the original breakdown). By the time the meat gets through the stomach and small intestine it is not really meat anymore. Enzymes are an issue too. We make all the enzymes we need in order to deal with meat and fat, but… Read more »
catherine
catherine
5 years 6 months ago

Your colon is as long as a football field… where do you get your infos?
Fat makes you regular??? Jeez…

Lark
Lark
5 years 3 months ago

Football fields are only 5 feet long?

tslate
tslate
4 years 9 months ago

The small intestine is 7 METERS(20 to 23 feet long).

The large intestine is only about 1.5 meters (5 feet) long.

I know, facts suck.

RD Liz
RD Liz
4 years 11 months ago
Hi there, as a Registered Dietician, I believe that vegetables and fruits should make up a huge part of the diet. People can be healthy on vegetarian diets. Very low fat diets are not healthy but they may be presrcibed for certain medical conditions. FIBER is healthy. Fat does not replace fiber. People can be healthy as vegetarians or meat-eaters. Why eat like primals? primals didn’t live as long as we, many died at 30 or 35 before they even had a chance to develop heart diseases and cancer. Either way you want to avoid junk food, fast food, processed… Read more »
Tess
Tess
4 years 11 months ago

Actually, it’s a myth that people used to die at 35. That was about the average life expectancy, but that includes a huge amount of infant mortality. In fact, a hunter gatherer who lived past 15 could expect to live to at least 70, assuming they didn’t fall to accident, predation, or human-on-human violence.

DarkGreenKale
DarkGreenKale
4 years 8 months ago
All right you folks out there, while I have no formal education in nutritional science, I have read quite a bit on the subject. At the beginning of my own personal researches, many years ago, it all seemed so complicated. Finally, when I grasped the essentials, I came to realize that understanding basic human nutrition is not rocket science. We as human beings are all (biologically/chemically) built/composed of the same matter. Sure, we do vary in size, height, body frame, lifestyle choices, level and nature of daily activity we engage in, the type of metabolic system we have, gene inheritance,… Read more »
Jack
Jack
4 years 8 months ago

To DarkGreenKale,

You obviously haven’t read much on this website. Your 7 points have been extensively refuted here. If you’re going to tell us what you have “figured out” in your brilliance, can you please point to the MDA articles that refute your claims, and refute them?

Otherwise, you’re just parroting Conventional Wisdom, which is kinda stupid considering it’s been so thoroughly rebuked around here.

Michael Cohen
Michael Cohen
4 years 6 months ago
You may be a dietitian, but your thinking is very flawed.As a “Registered Dietitian” You are simply regurgitating the “conventional wisdom” on the subject and it is very flawed. If we look at man in his present primal state, hunter gatherers, we see that they live just as long as we do. The lower lifespan is calculated as an average, and this average is brought down dramaticaly by infant and childhood mortality. Scientists, missionaries,doctors and explorers, when first encountering man in his primal state universally noted a complete absence of the diseases of civilization, heart disease, cancer, diabetes etc.The idea… Read more »
Bryan
Bryan
4 years 2 days ago
I completely agree with you. I’m not a dietician and don’t claim to be, but I can say that my personal diet consists of a fairly good amount of lean meat, eggs, milk, fruit and vegetables, and grains. I try to stay away from snack cakes and fast food but I do have one or the other once in a while. I do smoke, though not nearly as much as most habit smokers lay claim to. Maybe a pack every 2 1/2 to 3 days. Maybe a beer a month on average. I’m 180 lbs at 6′ 1″ tall and… Read more »
Rufus T. Firefly
Rufus T. Firefly
3 years 11 months ago

“…as a Registered Dietician, I…”

Blah, blah, blah.

I love how people think a title confers unquestionable credibility. The same goes for MDs, PhDs, etc.

Erin
Erin
3 years 9 months ago

RE: Bryan – “There is no fat at all in any type of fruit, vegetable, grain, bean or nut without adding some sort of animal byproduct such as butter.”

I’m surprised no one pointed out the flaws in this statement. There are plenty of non-animal sources of fat – olives, avocados and coconuts first come to mind. All nuts that I’m aware of and some grains contain fat.

Just sayin…

meagain
meagain
4 years 10 months ago

I think you need to work on your reading comprehension skills, Dana. It’s pretty clear his point was that obligate carnivores, such as cats, are better able to digest meat quickly than omnivores, such as humans, who have a much longer digestive system. This is in no way a “dig at cats” nor, does it seem, he was suggesting that cats should be placed on a vegan diet!

Primal Vegan
Primal Vegan
4 years 9 months ago

STFU!

Bee
Bee
4 years 2 months ago

How do u construct a primal vegan diet? Id love to see what ur daily diet is like!

Chickygirl
Chickygirl
4 years 6 months ago

If seeds go right through you it is because you aren’t chewing. Why do you think we have teeth? What are all those molars FOR? I’m not defending strict vegetarianism, etc. but I do eat a lot of plant food and don’t see any undigested food in the toilet. Jes sayin.

stephen
stephen
3 years 11 months ago
About your grossness alert: If you identify what’s in your toilet, it has as much to do with food not entirely digested because of too many type of food at once, or food not chewed enough. Also, poorly digested seeds and vegetables, because of their structures, are easier to spots in bowels than meat. (Might also be cause fried meat already looks like…) Anyone familiar with food combining would tell you this. Any well-combined food is mostly digested ”completely”, meaning this incredible feat: AFTER YOU’VE TAKEN A DUMP, RARELY THE NEED TO WIPE YOUR BUTT CAUSE FULLY CLEAN! Also the… Read more »
liz
liz
3 years 9 months ago
I was on the atkin’s diet and was having diarrhea every day and acne coming out of my neck. I still had allergies and asthma. I was not healthy but thin. I couldn’t sleep either. green leafy veggies, sweet potatoes and always feeling wired from ketosis. I gave that up and starting juicing. Went through a major detox where I was throwing up for a couple of days. My skin is glowing, my asthma is gone. My allergies are not reacting. My stools are solid on a nutrient rich diet. I eat 98% vegetables with half a cup of beans… Read more »
tslate
tslate
4 years 9 months ago
Vegetarians come in many forms including those who eat chicken, fish, all dairy, etc. Many indians are like this, who eschew read meat but eat other forms of aimal proteins. You don’t explain further. The issue is really the vegan rhetoric. I think many of us have tried these various forms of eating all started by Paul Bragg in the US for the most part and have gone on from there. If there is a group of supremely healthy VERY athletic robust vegans out there I’d think we’d know by now. The fact is all forms of healthy eating can… Read more »
Rick
Rick
4 years 5 months ago

Carl Lewis is a vegan and had the best performance of his live when he switched. Google vegan athletes and bodybuilders and you’ll find many. Just because they aren’t coming out of the woods in waves doesn’t mean they don’t exists. That’s a pretty ignorant way of thinking that just because YOU haven’t heard of any means they don’t exist. I have to assume you’ve heard of Carl Lewis.

Andy
Andy
4 years 4 months ago

Carl Lewis became vegan in 1990. His career spanned 1979-1996. Before he became vegan he excelled in any competition he entered. After he became vegan his career went downhill. Yes, in 1991 he partly excelled but from 1992 onwards his career spiralled down like a Messerschmitt shotdown by a Spitfire.

Try again.

Wyandotte
Wyandotte
4 years 2 months ago

Re Carl Lewis. He changed his diet to vegan in 1991? And only a year later he spiralled downward, is that right?

It would appear to me that if he, his advisors, and his coaches could not make the connection between a great change of diet, and subsequent failures, that their combined IQ must be around room temperature.

Paleo Huntress
Paleo Huntress
3 years 11 months ago

Mostly carnivorous cultures (Maasai, Inuit) do NOT suffer from higher rates of colon cancer, which in and of itself disproves the theory that meat is cancer causing. If that were so, these cultures would have died out centuries ago.

Wyandotte
Wyandotte
3 years 11 months ago
I don’t know about the Masai, but as far as the far northern indiginous people are concerned, they have a pretty severe calcium deficiency, I would say. You can see this in their severely wrinkled skin. I guess the Masai, being in a sun-rich, vitamin-D inducing, area, are able to avoid this. You have to look at the whole darn picture. We can’t translate a traditional lifestyle from one part of the world and glom it onto people living in different latitudes. Us civilized folk in a 4-season climate weren’t designed to eat or live like the Masai or the… Read more »
Paleo Huntress
Paleo Huntress
3 years 11 months ago

I’m not suggesting we can translate their diet or culture- the claim was that meat causes colon cancer- the reference to the Maasai and Inuit is presented as refutation of that, nothing more. Consider too, the modern Inuit diet contains grains and other processed foods now, and their health is suffering for it.

Xfingxfing
Xfingxfing
3 years 11 months ago

Us civilized people, as opposed to like Masai or Inuit…..Racist!!! Besides, Masai don’t have wrinkly skin….even if they did, you spend 16 hours a day in 90+ temperatures, see how quickly you’d leather up.

Tony
Tony
3 years 6 months ago

One explanation for the lack of colon cancer is that they don’t live long enough to develop polyps which could eventually develop into malignant tumors. Maasai and Inuit have less than impressive life expectancy…They do have fairly high rates of heart disease as do the Mongols (milk and meat-based diet)…

paleohuntress
paleohuntress
3 years 6 months ago
I don’t know about the Mongols, but the Maasai do NOT have heart disease. Researchers say their blood vessels are sclerotic, and though in the Western world, arterial sclerosis is correlated with heart attacks, it isn’t in the Maasai. Their vessels enlarge to compensate and they don’t have heart attacks. (Am. J. Epidemiol. (1972) 95 (1): 26-37) They also live into old age. Average life expectancies are not a reasonable way to compare the health of populations with significantly different cultures because confounders like infant mortality, accidents, warring and other causes of death have been minimized in so-called ‘modern’ cultures.… Read more »
Tony
Tony
3 years 6 months ago
Are you honestly saying you are OK with having sclerosis as long as it doesn’t give you a heart attack? If you have sclerosis in your heart you will also have it throughout your body. The confounding factors with the Maasai are that 1) They live at high altitudes, dilating their blood vessels somewhat like you stated and 2) They have loads of parasites from eating all that meat, blood, and milk, and the parasites have a cholesterol-lowering effect. In addition, the Maasai are active and do not suffer from being overweight. All of these things work in their favor,… Read more »
Wyandotte
Wyandotte
3 years 6 months ago

I’ve no particular dog in this fight – I support everyone eating what he wants – but wish to point out that we here in the west tend to have “long lives” because of the intervention of much medical technology. But has anyone here ever gone to a personal care home and had a look at the folks whose “long” lives skew the statistics in favor of the continuation whatever it is that our society as a whole eats? If you aren’t sickened and heartbroken, you are a zombie.

Different strokes. That’s all.

Tony
Tony
3 years 6 months ago

Couldn’t agree more Wyandotte…high life expectancy does not guarantee health…not by a long shot…

That said, since everyone on this forum is in some way shape or form trying to find what diet works best for them individually and what diet (if any) works best for humanity as a whole, life expectancy statistics can be a useful thing to examine in my opinion…

paleohuntress
paleohuntress
3 years 5 months ago
Tony, “Are you honestly saying you are OK with having sclerosis as long as it doesn’t give you a heart attack? If you have sclerosis in your heart you will also have it throughout your body.” Yes. It isn’t disease, it’s a healthy hormetic response to their diet and environment. Most folks claim that a high fiber diet is good for the gut and yet if you look at what happens to the mucous membrane of the gut, the rupturing of cell walls and consequent spilling of the contents into the intestinal bolus, you might question whether this could truly… Read more »
paleohuntress
paleohuntress
3 years 5 months ago

This–> “On the other hand, every single large successful population of healthy, fit people in history without exception have eaten a starch-based diet from whole grains and/or tubers…”

–should have been included in the quote formatting located below it.

Tony
Tony
3 years 5 months ago
We are in agreement that the sclerosis does not seem to adversely affect the Maasai based on that study…but whereas you think this is healthy, and you are obviously entitled to your own opinion, I would rather not have any amount of sclerosis at all… This idea that fiber damages the intestinal membrane, however, is nonsense. As long as you have healthy intestines, meaning no scar tissue or lesions from something like Crohn’s disease for instance, fiber is beneficial. For those people who do have problems digesting whole grains (and I will admit that they do exist), there is white… Read more »
paleohuntress
paleohuntress
3 years 5 months ago

Tony,

Let’s try this again…

“One explanation for the lack of colon cancer is that they don’t live long enough to develop polyps which could eventually develop into malignant tumors. Maasai and Inuit have less than impressive life expectancy…”

False. Demonstrated.

As for the rest… no matter how many time you repeat it, it doesn’t get any truer.

Thank you for playing.

~Huntress

paleohuntress
paleohuntress
3 years 5 months ago

FWIW, corn does NOT normalize insulin response in anyone. A 2005 study of carb-rich foods eaten in the Sudan (and these are traditional foods) found: “[M]aize acida induced a higher post-prandial glucose and insulin response.” The corn is ground into meal and cooked like a porridge- just as with the Maasai.

Tony
Tony
3 years 5 months ago
Well I guess there’s not much I can do to change your mind about the Maasai and Inuit, even though I referenced accurate statistics on life expectancy, which, no matter what you might like to believe, is on the whole much lower than people who eat whole foods starch-based diets…As for their “fitness,” sure they may have enjoyed good physiques and health for a time, certainly long enough to reproduce, but are they models of what to eat to have a long life? Not even close… As for the colon cancer, you are mistaken: “Genetic alterations, both inherited and non-inherited,… Read more »
Tony
Tony
3 years 5 months ago

70-80% starch-based diet and *diabetes* used to be “virtually nonexistent.”

paleohuntress
paleohuntress
3 years 5 months ago

That’s a myth… even the ancient Egyptians suffered from diabetes.

Tony
Tony
3 years 5 months ago

The idea that most Egyptians had diabetes is a myth…

However, the Egyptians found entombed as mummies were part of an elevated and wealthy social class that tended to eat diets that were richer in animal foods. Archaeological evidence on their teeth and elsewhere indicates this is so.

Egyptians that were not wealthy ate a lot of wheat and their remains are not as common, hence the idea that people in ancient Egypt had diabetes and other “diseases of affluence.” Check out the link below under “Diets of Wealthy Ancient Egyptians.”

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2012nl/feb/excerpt.htm

paleohuntress
paleohuntress
3 years 5 months ago

Tony,

“Most”? You really should work on your reading skills- then you wouldn’t have to put so much energy into building strawmen. =)

Mummification became available to pretty much anyone who could afford it and many saved their whole lives for that final expense. Even the middle classes had access to mummification, including the laborers working on pyramid building.

You offer a link to the hand-rubbing, maniacally-grinning clown of a guru whose wealth and reputation are dependent on people believing ‘starch is manna as your evidence’? Please.

At least I now know where your fanatacism comes from.

~Huntress

Tony
Tony
3 years 5 months ago
Huntress, I am guessing that you must have had a really bad experience with your previous vegan diet…is it possible that you simply were not eating the right foods in the right balance? Meat is definitely not necessary…many humans have abstained and lived long lives…but there is a growing body of evidence that basing one’s diet on meat and animal products leads to chronic disease. This evidence has been accumulating for some time now, but it doesn’t get as much attention as it deserves. People who are in favor of eating meat usually reference, as you do, various studies that… Read more »
paleohuntress
paleohuntress
3 years 5 months ago
Tony, You are correct, I had a bad experience with my vegan diet. I went vegan to avoid the heart disease and diabetes that runs in my family… and a few months in, I felt good and had lost over 20 pounds and was sure that I had. But then I started to feel crappy… and gain weight again. I saw a vegan dietician every other week- we worked closely together with my doctor getting lab work done. We tried more/all/less cooked, more/less fat, more/less calories, more grains, no grains, etc… etc. In the end, veganism CAUSED the very disease… Read more »
Tony
Tony
3 years 5 months ago
You clearly were eating in a way that your body did not tolerate when you were vegan and that is why you were sick. The addition of meat did not make you healthier. You simply substituted some foods that your body tolerated better in the short term. Grains and legumes are a pretty huge category. I find it hard to believe that someone could be intolerant to those. With the exception of gluten intolerance, which is actually probably just a result of eating too much rancid flour, most people can digest grains just fine. It’s great that you’re better now,… Read more »
paleohuntress
paleohuntress
3 years 5 months ago
LMAO Tony, “About Gabriel Cousens…you’re getting your gurus mixed up, he advocates 100% raw vegan live foods for diabetics and has apparently had great success with that approach.” This debate stuff would be easier if you’d learn to read. I know it’s tough to see past your strawmen and biased associations, but I didn’t say anything about meat. =) “He says veganism is WAY too high in carbohydrate and is curing diabetes with a high fat diet. (35-50%) I guess he doesn’t agree that the ayurvedic tradition is high starch.” “Here- I’ll link you to a video short with Gabriel… Read more »
paleohuntress
paleohuntress
3 years 5 months ago

Tony,

“I never said a high insulin response was a good thing.”

Oh? You wrote,

“Regarding corn increasing insulin response and post-prandial glucose…so what? high insulin sensitivity is a good thing!”

You say “so what” that insulin response is increased, and then you explain that that’s because, “insulin sensitivity is a good thing”! Well Tony, nice try back-paddling, but your second statement shows that you believe insulin response IS the same as insulin sensitivity.

Fail.

paleohuntress
paleohuntress
3 years 5 months ago
(looks like a comment that includes a link is held for moderation- once approved it will post again.) LMAO Tony, “About Gabriel Cousens…you’re getting your gurus mixed up, he advocates 100% raw vegan live foods for diabetics and has apparently had great success with that approach.” This debate stuff would be easier if you’d learn to read. I know it’s tough to see past your strawmen and biased associations, but I didn’t say anything about meat. =) I wrote, “He says veganism is WAY too high in carbohydrate and is curing diabetes with a high fat diet. (35-50%) I guess… Read more »
Jesse
Jesse
3 years 5 months ago
Interesting discussion. There are two things linked to inflammation, protein, which is an acid, and sugar, if someone is getting to much of both they are at risk of chronic disease. That is why smoking mysteriously is linked to heart disease, it lowers blood ph, and causes inflammation. The arteries form fatty concentrations(animal or plant based dependent on what’s available) on the side to absorb acids, and maintain blood PH. You can clear up most inflammation with something with a high PH, ( a plant ). Interestingly grains are the only plant food with a low or acidic PH. It… Read more »
Jesse
Jesse
3 years 5 months ago
A few other brief points, we know that meat has a PH lowering effect because calcium from ones bones, Calcium being an alkaline mineral. http://www.balancinghealth.net/blog/low-carb-low-bone-densit.html We see lower bone density in cases where calcium is not taken with meat products. This is also the reason milk a high calcium food, can cause low bone density, the acidic value of the milk counters the calciums effects. If we look for meat eating behavior in primates we find that in the case of chimps, its linked to Mating habits. Female chimps who eat meat have a higher birth success rate. I believe… Read more »
Tony
Tony
3 years 5 months ago
I meant high cellular insulin sensitivity not high insulin response…but I’m sure you’ll find a way to accuse me of “back-peddling” and “putting my foot in my mouth” Lol. I like to engage in these kinds of discussions as a way to clarify my own views as well as learn from others…If you can’t find flaws in the content of my assertions, don’t resort to implying that I am incoherent… About Gabriel Cousens…You are right. I was mistaken about what he advocated. That said, his ideas are kind of extreme and don’t make much sense to me. I actually have… Read more »
Tony
Tony
3 years 5 months ago
Thanks for those links Jesse… I agree with pretty much everything you said… One thing I would say about grains though: they are so mildly acidic that simply adding a pinch of unrefined sea salt is enough to make them neutral. Cooking them with seaweeds also helps. Roasted/grilled/bbq meat on the other hand, is without a doubt the most blood-acidifying substance on earth… I must disagree with you on the notion of a “paleo-themed” vegan diet. I know I’m arguing semantics here, but I think this is important enough to warrant distinction. As far as I can tell, self-described “paleo”… Read more »
paleohuntress
paleohuntress
3 years 5 months ago
Tony, “If you can’t find flaws in the content of my assertions, don’t resort to implying that I am incoherent…” I find you VERY coherent, I’m not sure why you’d think otherwise. It’s simply that you are so zealot-like in your belief system that you see what you want to see rather than what is there- and out of that you build straw men, at least three in this part of the thread alone. But for the sake of clarity, I find your non sequitur arguments quite coherent. “his ideas are kind of extreme and don’t make much sense to… Read more »
Tony
Tony
3 years 5 months ago
If you were a grain-free vegan before, I am not surprised that you were sick…No one likes admitting that they made mistakes…but you clearly did…If you eat a mostly-cooked whole grain-based diet (or if you have a phobia of grains, which is foolish, eat potatoes, sweet potatoes, taro, yams, etc.) you will not get diabetes, have high cholesterol, and so on…This is a fact, and if I ever run into you in the future, that bet I made still holds! Your physiology is not SO different that while most of the healthy cultures on this planet get away with being… Read more »
Paleo Huntress
Paleo Huntress
3 years 5 months ago

Tony,

You’re an illiterate ass and I’m done giving you a pass on it. Should you ever learn to read, I welcome you back into this debate. In the meantime though, I strongly encourage you to focus on your reading comprehension skills. http://www.cracked.com/article_19468_5-logical-fallacies-that-make-you-wrong-more-than-you-think.html

Alexa
9 years 3 months ago

…….

Toni Ann
9 years 2 months ago
Hi- I became vegetarian 2/12 years ago, and became strict vegan 1/1/2 years ago. For me, it has it’s benefits and drawbacks. Before going veg, I ate only meat, dairy, pasta, and bread. Drank a gallon of milk every 2 days, picked the fruits and vegetables out of everything. I was a dancer, and had a muscular build. I was constantly constipated and did not get regular periods. Also, I had a short fuse. Since cutting out flesh, and then all animal by-products, I’ve lost 12 pounds of muscle mass and fat. While I enjoy having a more feminine body… Read more »
Alison
Alison
5 years 11 months ago

Had you considered that perhaps it wasn’t the subtraction of meat, but the addition of vegetables to your diet that benefited you? Constipation is generally caused by a lack of fiber, which comes from… you guessed it! Veggies!

Dana
Dana
5 years 9 months ago
If she’s typical of the average American, she ate all that junk but was afraid to eat too much fat because it was “unhealthy.” I can avoid constipation without eating lots of fiber simply by getting enough fat in my diet (butter, cream, coconut oil, etc.). Eating fiber, particularly cereal fiber, has less than salutary effects on my health. The cereal fiber can actually make me back up, as it were. The vegetable fiber makes things move through entirely too fast. If I can identify what’s in the toilet, it’s had too short a transition time. I don’t eat food… Read more »
Some guy
Some guy
3 years 11 months ago

Some of your opinions and commentaries are, I wanna put it gently, a bit weird and toilet centered…

TONYSHOGUN
TONYSHOGUN
5 years 4 months ago

“I’ve met the chicken”… whether I agree with you or not, that line is CLASSIC!

ameeyr99
ameeyr99
3 years 7 months ago

That just made me LOL, thank you!

rayomnivar
rayomnivar
9 years 2 months ago

ALL–Please see the CHINA STUDY if you have not,
(milk and meat cause cancer);
dancer lady:–please eat nuts and seeds,
and all yes white flour is = sugar and is a waste,
try eating RAW FOODS veg as much as possible.
ray

MB
6 years 7 months ago
CHINA STUDY: http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html “casein, and very likely all animal proteins, may be the most relevant cancer-causing substances that we consume.” Then: “Whey protein appears to have a protective effect against colon cancer that casein does not have.” So which is it? Campbell argues that since Cassein is bad, all animal proteins are bad… but whey is good? last I checked, Whey comes from milk aka animal. And my favorite quote from the above link which looks at the data Campbell “used” to make his assumptions: “Sugar, soluble carbohydrates, and fiber all have correlations with cancer mortality about seven times the… Read more »
Dana
Dana
5 years 9 months ago

http://rawfoodsos.com/category/china-study/

Read it yourself. Not the popular book that misrepresented the data in the survey.

Hope you don’t eat wheat. Meat was not linked with disease, but wheat sure was.

Deanna
Deanna
5 years 4 months ago

Amen!! Meat and Milk DO cause cancer, and the best nutrients; all you will ever need, can be found in nature from nuts, beans, whole grains, fruits and vegetables. Becoming vegan stopped my constant calorie counting, watching carbs, etc. My energy zipped up, no longer depressed, skin glows, never ever feel deprived. You couldn’t make me it anything from an animal. Sadly Kharma from eating animals is heart disease, cancers and unhealthy weight gain. I highly recommend you read the kind diet…will WAKE you up!

formerveg
formerveg
5 years 4 months ago
And you’re citing Alicia Silverstone as a nutritional expert? Please at least choose a reputable veg nutrition source to cite when making these claims. (I can think of a few that, though certainly not what I consider to be ideal, are loads better than that book.) I’m formerly vegan, and did everything “right”… but my cholesterol went down when I put some grass-fed, local meat back into my diet. My blood sugar and blood pressure also went down. All this before I cut out sugar and grains. Now that I’m off grains, sugar, and most legumes I’ve lost body fat… Read more »
Michael Cohen
Michael Cohen
4 years 11 months ago

Is that why vegetarian east indians have one of the highest rates of heart disease in the world?

Xfingxfing
Xfingxfing
3 years 11 months ago

Guess what?! We’re all gonna die eventually, whether we eat meat or not

k
k
3 years 9 months ago

East Indian women have THE lowest rate of heart disease in the world, and highest life expectancy. (Source: Sociology of Health & Illness by Peter Conrad, 7th ed.)

I am very annoyed with people who try to justify their beliefs by fabricating information, or were simply misinformed and don’t bother to verify information before confidently misinforming others.

Andy
Andy
4 years 4 months ago

Steve Jobs will attest to everything you have just said! Oh wait. He was (a strange) vegan and he died of cancer!

Oh well, let’s ask Linda McCartney. Nope. Vegetarian died of cancer.

Let’s ask the Monkee’s guy, Davy Jones. Oh dear, heart attack at 66.

What about the Bee Gee’s? Robin Gibbs – vegan and cancer.

Ok, what about Maurice Gibb? No! Donna Summer? No. Bob Marley? No.

I could go on but I won’t,

Toni Ann
9 years 2 months ago
Hi Ray- Thanks for the note. I don’t eat any refined products and do live mainly on raw fruits and veggies. I do realize the risks of consuming meats and dairy, aside from the fact that I would never expect something to die so that I could have a particular taste in my mouth. There are conflicting views and studies about whether flesh consumption is a health risk, but I would be more than willing to read the article in question. Can you send me a link? I won’t eat animals again, but I do need to get a lot… Read more »
Dana
Dana
5 years 9 months ago

“I would never expect something to die so that I could have a particular taste in my mouth.”

So plants aren’t alive? Then why do you eat them? They wouldn’t have anything your body could use if they weren’t biological organisms.

I’ve actually had veg*ns tell me that bugs dying in a crop field aren’t a big deal because their nervous systems are less developed than those of mammals.

Not that mammals don’t die in plant agriculture too.

GT
5 years 6 months ago
That sort of ‘reductio ad absurdam’ argument is indicative of an absence of sensible argument. As a reasonably-strict vegetarian, it annoys me no end to see vapid straw-man argumentation – using some starch-hounds as an example of dumb veganism simply shows that a goodly swathe of Americans are cultish idiots… it doesn’t show anything else whatsoever. Plants are most certainly ‘alive’ in that they have demonstrable biological processes. However to the extent that we are able to determine, they don’t appear to be SENTIENT. They don’t demonstrate any tendency to minister to their young; they show no social attributes that… Read more »
meagain
meagain
4 years 10 months ago

I think I am in love with you.

argon stripe
argon stripe
4 years 9 months ago
So many words to say nothing. Good job setting up your straw man and heroically thrashing it, though, right after accusing someone else of the same thing. First off, reductio ad absurdum is a logically consistent form of argumentation. Of course, your post is not so much reductio ad absurdum, argumenting by reducing to logical absurdidies, but rather arguing FROM absurdity by throwing a lot of irrelevant crap together and then trying to convince the reader that you’re spinning feces into gold. The original comment very specifically stated that the commenter would not want something to die for a particular… Read more »
tslate
tslate
4 years 9 months ago
@GT you totally crack me up – “because I do not want to be responsible for the deliberate killing of something that thinks. ” You can eat loads of animal protein and not eat meat. Besides all that, your veganism is allowed in a sedentary culture such as the US because most everything is factory produced, of course by animal, flesh eating cannibals. But why waste the finer subtleties of logic on you. I do believe hypocrisy is one of the requirements to veganism. BTW vegans against the killing of whales for food believe that other types of fish are… Read more »
tatiana
tatiana
4 years 6 months ago
I’m thoroughly enjoying the debate. However, I will note that folks that study plants are discovering more and more the ways in which plants communicate with one another. They may not display animalistic sentience, but its no longer correct to unequivocably say they display no evidence of intentionality. Personally, I think anyone that gives up processed food, sugar, and commercial meat (Mark and McD both advocate these behaviors) tends to feel better. All the other stuff…people try and experiment with themselves. Who am I to question their personal experiments? As for my experiments: I cannot deal with wheat, but I… Read more »
balance
balance
4 years 4 months ago
Plants do actually know when they’re in danger, and take defensive action: http://www.livescience.com/1909-plants-communicate-warn-danger.html As a Spiritual Naturalist, I choose the natural omnivorous diet of my species. Organisms must consume organic matter to continue to function, and that’s just the way it works. I am grateful to the plants and animals that keep me alive with their flesh. (Yes, plants have flesh, too. And some of them eat animals.) Until we manage to change our physiology to subsist on sunlight, air, and water, we’re stuck with the biological imperatives we have, and don’t get to enjoy the good karma photosynthesizing plants… Read more »
Xfingxfing
Xfingxfing
3 years 11 months ago

I couldn’t get past your bizarre vocabulary…goodly swath….you lost all credibility at that point.

Xfingxfing
Xfingxfing
3 years 11 months ago
GT…you’re very naive, slavery didn’t end, it just took on a different guise…by “paying” next to nothing to Chinese workers, etc. it’s cheaper than having slaves which you have to feed and shelter. And I take offence to your slur about Americans once again being a hundred years behind the civilized world, as a Canadian I can think of a lot of reasons the U.S. sucks, legitimate reasons too, but your remark was not only uncalled for but it added nothing to the point you failed to make. As for your unkind remark about the little Frenchman, as a Frenchman… Read more »
Advar
Advar
3 years 5 months ago

Man, this is the most intelligent post in defense of vegetarianism that I’ve seen to date. I’m going to have to do some real thinking about my lifestyle.

Melia
Melia
3 years 1 month ago

GT, please marry meeeee!!

Deanna
Deanna
5 years 4 months ago

Please another excuse to bash choice to live a Vegan lifestyle… you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts, now it is bugs you are killing… Visit a livestock processing plant and then tell me how you feel about eating a steak, porkchop or a chicken only then will I understand your desire to poison your body.

tslate
tslate
4 years 9 months ago

@Deanna, like you’ve been to one. But maybe more up your alley, how about visiting Indonesia and live the life of a family who subsists on nothing in a hut living in slavery to provide you with raw cocoa nibs and chocolate. It’s called chocolate, and vegans love it, got to get all those antioxidants! But yeah, we know it’s all “vegan approved” not to hurt anyone, LOL!

Xfingxfing
Xfingxfing
3 years 11 months ago

Bad point about the Indonesians, Vegans don’t care about inhumanity towards humans, they’re only concerned about being humane towards animals….well, certain “loveable” mammals.

Every time you scrub your unhealthy ashy vegan skin you kill zillions of micro-organisms.

liz
liz
9 years 2 months ago
to the tired vegetarian- sounds like you’re seriously lacking in the b vitamin department, aside from others. i’ve been veg for over 10 years, so i have been through a lot of the same symptoms… cramping in the limbs sounds like you need some potassium. some may tell you that being tired is obviously a lack of protein, but it could be a lack of b vitamins as well.. it is something that is really hard to get from non meat sources. you should really research it. it can really put a deficit in building and retaining healthy muscles. fats… Read more »
Kelly
Kelly
9 years 1 month ago
From Personal experience I have tried several times in my younger days to go vegetarian believing the stories about meat causing osteoporosis, cancer, colon problems etc. All 3 times I wound up losing muscle mass, feeling lethargic, and generally miserable. I was the “Skinny Fat” Person. A year ago I gave up all processed prepackaged foods. I now regularly eat organic, free range, hormone free beef, chicken, and bison and wild fish and I have never been happier or healthier. I know that most people who turn vegetarian do in fact loose weight and feel better or conquer their chronic… Read more »
Susan
Susan
6 years 27 days ago

“who raised it and can assure me that it is treated kindly”

Raised “it”, and, “treated kindly”, that is until ‘”it” was slaughtered to feed me…..’

Geez!!!

GT
5 years 6 months ago
Hiya Kelly. To me it indicates that you didn’t properly ‘research’ your forays into vegetarianism. I’m 6’1″, 230lb, and easily as strong as I was when I ate meat (which I did non-stop for about 42 years). In the past I was carrying too much fat (not due to meat; I ate WAY too much white bread. Thankfully I never drank fizzy drinks). After 2 years of reasonably-dedicated vegetarianism (I lapsed, btu I do so less frequently now) I can still bench my bodyweight with ease (my bench warmup weight is 130 and I squeeze out 8 reps at 230lb… Read more »
Dave Michaels
Dave Michaels
5 years 3 months ago
@GT – I really appreciated reading your thoughtful replies. I have been a vegetarian for 9 years and I admit to doing exactly what you say – jumping in without doing proper research. My general health did improve straight away after becoming a vegetarian, but over time I began to notice that my body was transforming in the wrong direction – towards skinny-fat. Completely my fault, however, and not the diet. I lead a totally sedentary lifestyle while chomping down excessive carbs, thinking that becoming a vegetarian was like some magic cape that shielded me from poor lifestyle and dietary… Read more »
Emma
Emma
5 years 1 month ago
Hi! Quick question – do you skip the legumes/beans as a protein source with a 50% fat 25% protein 25% cabs ratio? Any suggestions on other veg friendly protein sources, apart from hemp? I understand that vegetables have protein in them, but I do want to up it up and I am having difficulty doing so considering I am sensitive to soy and I am trying to go as primal as I can. I currently leech off of my husband’s whey protein powder for post workout smoothies (fine a vegan mortal sin haha), and it really drastically helped me get… Read more »
Sunny
Sunny
5 years 2 months ago
Finally, intelligence in the midst of “but you kills plants and bugs” – so ridiculous! I agree with you 100%, changing your diet does require due diligence. Do your research (thanks for some of your tips listed). There is enough negativity in the world than for meat eaters and vegetarians to take a defensive stand. It’s all about conscious eating. If you’re conscious and are happy with your health choices and your body tells you you’re one healthy babe – good for you. I go to these sights for insight and information. And luckily, sometimes I find it. But some… Read more »
Jason
Jason
4 years 6 months ago

Do you eat fermented tofu? you seem very well informed so I assume that you are but if not I would highly recommend it to lower the phytic acid content. You could also try tempeh but it does have a stronger flavor and a more firm texture but it is also higher in vitamins, fiber, and protein so it might be worth trying.

Xfingxfing
Xfingxfing
3 years 11 months ago

The Lovely? Hey, 230lbs…ain’t that a bit obese for a woman, even one as tall as you claim you are GT? Besides you ain’t healthy like you say, I know ’cause I seen you in the shower.

Xfingxfing
Xfingxfing
3 years 11 months ago
Golly, that’s an interesting story your telling us there GT…..but that’s just it, with nothing to corroborate your claims of superhuman strength, your Adonis body…..well, anybody can type anything on here….sorry you wasted your time and unfortunately ours too, but antichdotes without supporting facts don’t add much of anything to any serious discussion or debate. Furtermore, your story has absolutely no credibility whatsoever when it’s laced with incorrect “facts” so eat your Tofu which even a stupider than usual vegan knows is unhealthy garbage. “There’s no reason a person of average intelligence can’t adequately prepare themselves for vegetarianism or veganism…..hope… Read more »
Rene
Rene
8 years 10 months ago

Second vote on the ‘China Study’.

At the very least look it up on Amazon. There’s never been a larger scale study done on the effects of animal protein on the development of cancer and heart disease – well written and worth a few days of your time!

Dana
Dana
5 years 9 months ago

The popular book available on Amazon misconstrues the actual data in the actual study. Campbell’s own data disprove his conclusions.

Click on my name for a link, go read the numbers for yourself.

Dana
Dana
8 years 9 months ago
I was curious about that argument that protein leeches calcium out of the bones. The gist of the argument is that eating too much protein causes you to slide into a metabolically acidic state, and you need calcium to buffer the acid, so it gets taken out of your bones. The trouble is that we don’t really understand, as yet, the relationship between blood calcium levels and how much is still left in the bones. We can see the loss after it’s happened, but this is an area we need to research more. Besides, in my reading up on the… Read more »
Hongirl
Hongirl
8 years 1 day ago
One thing I’m just not seeing in the several comments I just read is the impact that mass-producing meat has on our environment. The methane gas, the toxic runoff and waste, the chemicals used on the ‘aberrant’ animals to keep them alive and fat, the amount of water (2500 gals total per lb!), the land needed to grow the grain (which is an unnatural feed for animals)and the inhumane way these animals are raised and killed! Being vegetarian, vegan or a raw foodist is a personal choice based on many different reasons. The stories told by people who had poor… Read more »
Susan
Susan
6 years 27 days ago

Fish and eggs are not in the vegetarian diet.

meagain
meagain
4 years 10 months ago

Well, I am a vegetarian but let’s be clear that the paleos are not advocating the type of animal production that you’re talking about. I respect that authentic paleos are leading the push toward free range and organic animal farming methods, which is a major step in the right direction for both animals and the planet. Personally, I would not eat animals under any circumstances, but other people are not going to stop eating them, so I’d certainly prefer that they were at least eating free range/organically/locally grown animals.

mary
mary
7 years 10 months ago
There are a couple of things that need to be cleared up. Dr McDougall is promoting a whole foods plant based diet, which happens to be Vegan. I have been vegan for several years, and my choice to do so was for compassionate reasons. I looked at the cruelty involved in the production of animal products and decided it was wrong for me to partake in that. I do the best that I can to avoid using all animal products. It is important on any diet to eat a variety of foods. Just because you are vegan doesn’t mean you… Read more »
Terry
Terry
5 years 2 months ago

I have never seen a healthy vibrant looking vegan- not to say you are not one – I just have not seen one- all I have encountered are stringy haired, pasty faced and underweight. I am a semi- veg – no animal flesh – but I do eat fish, shrimp, salmon and occasionally (very occasionally) chicken… I do not consider myself perfectly healthy – but at 76 still running around the arena chasing my horse = playing with him, riding him and enjoying life with only one rx (thyroid)

Lisa
Lisa
5 years 17 days ago

You obviously have never seen my daughter then. Very vibrant!

Chickygirl
Chickygirl
4 years 6 months ago

How about triathlete Brendan Brazier? He is vegan.

Why should you require a prescription for thyroid illness, if your diet is so good? I don’t push or believe in any specific diet for all people, so I’ve no dog in this fight except when people claim that our health is entirely caused by diet and nothing but.

Jason
Jason
4 years 6 months ago

Personally I think Ellen Degeneres is a healthy and vibrant looking vegan. she is in her 50’s but still looks no more than thirty years old. I believe very strongly in a paleolithic diet but I also believe it is ridiculous to assume that nobody can be healthy on a vegetarian or vegan diet.

bog
bog
4 years 2 months ago

you might wanna look a little closer at more pictures of ellen. she totally looks her age. on tv makeup and lighting hide a lot. close up photos tend to show the truth–assuming they aren’t air brushed. look at her wiki page photo. i’m not saying she looks bad for her age… but no more than 30? please.

Xfingxfing
Xfingxfing
3 years 11 months ago

Oh I’ve seen plenty of heathy robust vegans…Moose, Elk, Whitetail Deer, Bison…..vegans taste good!

Aqua
Aqua
9 months 8 days ago

‘Herbivores’ are NOT vegan, there are virtually no species that eat an entirely vegetable OR meat based diet.
Animals, like us, are omnivorous to one degree or another.
Herbivores eat a lot of insects snails small reptiles when grazing essential for their health , B12 intake.

Another reason why intensive farming is so nutritionally lacking.

Joel
Joel
7 years 10 months ago
Well said Mary. I could not agree more. The statistics of heart disease, cancer, diabetes is staggering in the US and can mainly be attributed to the Standard American Diet (SAD) filled with processed foods stripped down to have little or no nutritional value. It is exceptional to note that this statistic is not found in other geographical areas. However, they adopt similar health problems when emigrating into the US. What happened here? It cannot be explained by genetics. The article erroneously claims that there have not been cultures with strict plant based diets. Obviously, the author is not familiar… Read more »
MikeL
MikeL
7 years 10 months ago
Avoiding meat because you “cannot ethically take the life of another to feed yourself” is an irrational and untenable argument. Vegans consume plant life, which is just as wonderful, highly evolved, and elegant as animal life. What is the difference between plants and animals with respect to evolutionary and biological signifance? None. There’s no rational argument to make regarding why one non-human life form should die for our sake and another should not. No one wishes to see animals suffer—the shepherd has a responsibility to his flock—but how do we know that plants do not suffer when we kill them?… Read more »
Roslyn
Roslyn
6 years 9 months ago

Even if one took this argument seriously, even if one cared primarily for “plant suffering” then aside from starving to death, the best thing would be a vegan diet. Otherwise, the plants would just be fed to an animal before you ate them, and that would require a lot more plants than simply eating the plants in the first place.

Anabel
Anabel
6 years 9 months ago
Oh, how sad that you know nothing about science. Okay, how can I put this in baby words so you’ll understand? You see, animals, like you, me, my cat, cows, pigs, monkeys, etc. have these things called nervous systems. That means that they have brains and nerves, and those nerves are connected to the brain in complex ways. That means that animals can feel this thing called pain! Just like we feel pain! Isn’t that interesting? Unfortunately, although plants are incredibly complex, they do not possess nervous systems. At all. Not even a little bit. When you observe a plant… Read more »
mikehell
mikehell
6 years 9 months ago
Anabel, Let’s say that you were an astronaut that landed on an unfamiliar planet. You found life forms there that were also quite unfamiliar, unlike anything you’ve ever seen. How would you know whether or not these life forms had the same rights to life and property that you yourself have? It’s an important question. You have to know how to treat these creatures. Perhaps even your life depends on your judgment. Would you use biological criteria alone to make this decision, as your tirade above suggests that we should, or would you use something else to go by? Remember… Read more »
Anabel
Anabel
6 years 9 months ago
GASP! Oh no! Your ridiculous hypothetical question has torn down my entire scientific argument! Excuse me while I go cry in a corner. Listen dude. I don’t give a flying fuck about magical hypothetical life forms, nor do I care about the sort of magical spiritual pain that idiots purport plants to suffer. That’s bull. Animals and plants are controlled by chemical reactions, and by a few flukes of evolution animals ended up with nervous systems. Plants didn’t. End of f@#$ing story. Oh, and also? Don’t give me some argument about respecting the “rights to life and property” of imaginary… Read more »
psyte
psyte
6 years 8 months ago
First off, cursing and threats do not make an argument any more relevant and so should stop now. I understand this may be an emotional topic for you, but no one will take you seriously with that attitude. I find it interesting that no one has mentioned the number of animals slaughtered in the name of a vegetarian diet. Whenever grain is farmed hundreds of animals (mice, gophers, rabbits, etc.) are killed by the combines. Hawks and coyotes typically follow the combines to reap the benefits of all the deaths. When this is mentioned, vegetarians will argue that they did… Read more »
psyte
psyte
6 years 8 months ago
Also, I forgot to mention, I was a vegatarian for 13 years up until a few months ago. And I was a vegetarian for ethical reasons. I knew the vegetarian diet was unhealthy and jumped through all kinds of hoops to ensure I got somewhat adequate nutrition. In fact I would often tell people that I didn’t care if I didn’t live as long if it meant that animals would not die so I could live. What happened? I moved from California to Michigan. The town I now live in is a farming community. When I told people about why… Read more »
whiverjoli
4 years 5 months ago

Well said Anabel, I love your passion but I love your compassion more. The suffering I have seen animals subjected to their entire life so we can eat meat makes me sick. For someone to dismiss this with absolute garbage makes my blood boil. Don’t knock a person who gives a shit about the pain and suffering of another creature and try and somehow ridicule them for having a heart with stupid comments. To those of you who try and compare a plant to an animal…come on.

Alma
6 years 6 months ago
On the subject of biology, irrespective of whether plants feel pain or not, have we forgotten the simple fact that we are humans, mammals. Rejecting meat and animal produce is akin to rejecting your own humanity, just ridiculous! While we can mostly agree that the SAD is not the way to go, the vegetarian/vegan route is just another extreme that some may look into but not take seriously over the long term. Until the human body evolves to the point that it is in fact no longer mammal, it will always require animal saturated fats for optimal health. Off to… Read more »
Anabel is Violent
Anabel is Violent
4 years 2 days ago

Anabel can’t stand the thought of a sentient creature suffering. It bothers her so much that she wants to punch another human being in the face.

rosie
rosie
5 years 7 months ago

Anabel, you rock. So nice to hear someone mock the silly arguments of a meat eater. I’ve heard them all over the past 14 years but have got fed up trying to fight meaty myths with common sense, morals and values. And as for being a bit scrappy in the delivery of your argument, who can blame you. How come meat eaters think they can talk utter crap without some come back? You keep going. Just wish I was as articulate as you x

mikehell
mikehell