Dear Mark: Is Fluoride Safe?
Today’s question addresses a contentious topic in the health arena: fluoride. It’s in (most of) the tap water we use, (most of) the toothpastes with which we brush, and even (all of) the teas we drink. It represents a bloody stage upon which skeptics and the natural health folks battle it out. Many in the Primal community would like to avoid it (as they would any government-endorsed hydroadditive) if possible; if it’s not possible, they at least want to know just how bad the stuff really is and whether its intake can be mitigated. Should we use fluoride-free toothpaste? Should we install household filters? Argh. So many questions and so few definitive answers… and here’s yet another. Ah, life!
Dear Mark,
What’s your take on fluoride? To drink fluoridated water, or to filter it? To use fluoride-free, natural toothpaste, or is it one of the benefits of living in a modern world?
I can’t seem to find any conclusive evidence on the web as to whether it is good or bad, and while I asked my dentist, I would love a second opinion. (his waiting room was full of posters advocating a “low meat, low fat diet”…)
Thanks,
Annika
I’m probably going to take flak for this one, but so be it. I’m not particularly concerned with fluoride in the water. While I’d definitely prefer it weren’t added to almost every municipal water supply in the country, I think we have far bigger fish to fry when it comes to health. Avoiding blatantly poisonous foods like grains, sugar, and industrial seed oils is the most important thing we can do, followed by getting adequate amounts of exercise, sleep, and sun while reducing or mitigating stress. Once you’ve got the chest freezer full of pastured animals, a good workout regimen dialed in, a source of pastured eggs you can rely on, the perfect sleeping position entrained, and you’re waking up without an alarm clock totally refreshed and energized, then you can think about installing an expensive reverse-osmosis filter for your entire house or importing Nepalese glacier water. Before that, I don’t think it’s worth the trouble.
But don’t take my word for it. Let’s look at the evidence. I’m going to focus on a recent report on current EPA standards regarding fluoride by the National Research Council’s Board on Environmental Studies and Toxicology. Before you assume that these groups, being governmental bodies, are automatically suspect, note that the EPA requested the report and, in response to the NRC’s findings, has recently recommended a reduction in the maximum allowed dose of fluoride to be present in drinking water. They also suggest an optimum dose to be added – 0.7 mg/L – down from the previous 0.7-1.2 mg/L range. Currently, the average fluoride content of fluoridated municipal water supplies is 0.8 mg/L.
There is strong evidence that fluoride does offer protection against dental caries, but “the more the better” is probably not true and most recent reviews of the evidence suggest that topical fluoride (as in toothpastes, gels, and foams) are more effective than systemic fluoride. The NRC report references several literature reviews that conclude “the major anticaries benefit of fluoride is topical and not systemic,” and a more recent study finds that evidence for topical fluoridation is far stronger than for municipal water fluoridation (PDF). In fact, fluoride is most effective in the “post-eruptive” period, or after teeth have begun to appear, rather than as a preventive measure. As for systemic fluoridation? 0.7 mg/L of drinking water seems to be the sweet spot where cavity protection peaks. In fact, some studies show that as fluoride concentration approaches 1.2 mg/L, cavity incidence increases (PDF), right in line with the NRC’s recommendations and just under the average dosage in most water supplies.
Fluoride appears to become really problematic to humans in two scenarios: when intake is extremely high; and/or when intake of other important micronutrients and minerals is low and inadequate. The primary health issues ascribed to fluoride consumption are bone health and thyroid dysfunction, for which there is ample evidence – but that doesn’t mean the amounts we typically get from fluoridated water are sufficient to provoke them. As per usual, the dose makes the poison.
Opponents of fluoridation claim that fluoride makes for brittle bones, low bone density, and higher fracture rates. Proponents claim the opposite. The truth appears to be someplace in between. One study looked at different populations in China with different levels of naturally-occurring fluoride in the water ranging from 0.25 mg/L to 7.97 mg/L. Fracture rates increased at both extremes, with the lowest rates coming in populations with water fluoridation at 1 mg/L and the highest rates coming at between 4 mg/L and 7.97 mg/L. So, ultra low levels weren’t protective, l0w-to-mid levels were, while mid-to-high levels were definitely not.
It seems that, unsurprisingly, how fluoride affects bone mineral density depends on factors beyond just the amount of fluoride you’re getting. Calcium matters, for one. Rats on a calcium-deficient diet displayed impaired bone density and strength when given fluoride at 10 ppm and 45 ppm, while it took fluoride at 45 ppm to induce bone density problems in rats with sufficient calcium. Note that it only took sufficient calcium rather than supranormal amounts of it to protect bone density. Vitamin D matters, too; researchers induced rickets in vitamin D deficient rats by giving mega doses of fluoride (between 30 mg/L and 100 mg/L, unheard of doses that you’d never encounter in real life). Giving vitamin D prevented rickets, even though intestinal absorption of fluoride was increased with vitamin D supplementation. And it looks like magnesium interacts with fluoride, too. Magnesium deficient rats have more fluoride in their bones and teeth, and a magnesium deficiency increases fluoride absorption rates.
Iodine status of the organism interacts with, and sometimes predicts, how fluoride will affect the organism. For example, rats with sufficient iodine intake are able to tolerate drinking water with a fluoride content of 10 mg/L without negatively affecting thyroid status. At 30 mg/L, those same rats display reduced thyroid function and increased thyroid weight. If rats are iodine deficient, however, 10 mg/L of fluoride is enough to severely hamper thyroid function. Iodine deficient cows are also more vulnerable to fluoride’s effects on the thyroid.
Since we can’t give megadoses of fluoride to iodine-deficient humans in RCTs, human studies are mostly epidemiological, and thus not conclusive. That doesn’t make them any less interesting, though. Workers in an aluminum processing plant showed signs of fluorosis and thyroid dysfunction; fluoride is a common byproduct of aluminum plants, so aluminum workers are exposed to an inordinate amount of fluoride on a daily basis. 65% of workers with more than ten years of service at the plant and 54% of workers with stage 2 fluorosis had hypothyroidism, while 76% of the workers diagnosed with chronic fluoride intoxication (indicated by liver damage) also had hypothyroidism. In other words, the greater their exposure to fluoride, the greater their chances of developing hypothyroidism. The average intake for workers was 10 mg of fluoride per day. For comparison’s sake, most fluoridated tap water contains around 1 mg/L fluoride, so you’d have to drink 10 liters of tap water just to approach the amounts these workers were taking in. Another study actually tried to use fluoride as a treatment for hyperthyroidism. Out of fifteen patients with clinical hyperthyroidism, six responded well to fluoride treatment, with basal metabolic rate lowering to normal levels and the symptoms of hyperthyroidism abating. Although fluoride treatment was considered statistically ineffective in the other nine patients (most of whom had Grave’s disease, an autoimmune hyperthyroid disorder that isn’t really linked to iodine intake), some displayed modest signs of improvement nonetheless.
Overall, iodine status seems to determine whether fluoride will negatively affect the thyroid. Excessive amounts of fluoride exert negative effects regardless of iodine status, but standard fluoridation should be pretty harmless to the thyroid as long you get enough iodine.
They also looked at data on fluoride and various cancers, cognitive deficits, reproductive dysfunctions, liver/kidney/immune systems, but found nothing conclusive. Acutely elevated intakes beyond what you’d get from 4 mg/L exposure was linked with liver and kidney damage, but no evidence that normal intakes are dangerous. They also note that folks with renal impairments tend to accumulate and absorb more fluoride than people without kidney problems (since excess fluoride usually passes through the kidneys en route to the toilet). I recommend reading the linked sections, as they go over all the evidence and explain why it might mean something or why it might not. I’m not totally convinced we have nothing to worry about. There’s a lot to wade through, including some interesting cancer epidemiology.
What about other sources of fluoride? Fluoride isn’t just in the water we drink. It’s also in the products that use tap water, like soda and beer. It’s in tea leaves, with black having the highest levels and white having the lowest. Although one woman even developed severe skeletal fluorosis from drinking two gallons of tea each day for thirty years, tea consumption has reams of epidemiological and clinical evidence for its benefits that can’t be thrown out simply because of the fluoride content. Moderation is key, and longer brewing times increase fluoride release. It’s also commonly found in toothpaste. A pea-sized dollop of fluoride toothpaste has about 0.3 mg fluoride, while a larger, commercial-esque serving contains upwards of 2.25 mg. Don’t swallow your toothpaste (whether you use fluoride-free or not) and you’ll be okay.
Bottom line? Fluoride is a ubiquitous trace element that you can’t completely avoid, so to lose sleep over it is probably counterproductive. To wage campaigns against it and spend your days raging about it probably cause more stress and harm than they help. It’s in the food, in the soil, in tea leaves, in the water, and in any product that uses or includes municipal water. The best advice is first to avoid processed food, which you already do (right?). Next, eat lots of plants and animals to insure mineral repletion (while avoiding grains and legumes rich in mineral-binding phytic acid). Then, get daily sun or take a vitamin D supplement. Last, eating good Primal food means you’re avoiding the processed junk and sugary drinks that are high in fluoride. After that, I think you’re good. If you’re anything like me, you’re probably getting most of your hydration through real food, rather than gallon jugs of bottled water – so there’s another avenue of avoidance. To be on the safe side, check the local levels of fluoride (some naturally occurring water sources have levels far higher than the 0.7 mg/L-1.2 mg/L they add to water, so even non-fluoridated areas could be getting really high levels, which you do want to avoid) and respond accordingly. A reverse-osmosis filter, while expensive and somewhat wasteful, will remove fluoride.
It may be that I’ve been sheltered from water fluoridation – Malibu only recently got fluoride added to the water supply – but I haven’t noticed any ill effects, and I drink both tap and tea. High levels are harmful, but they aren’t common. One estimate pegs average daily intake of fluoride for a teenager living in a fluoridated area at around 1.85 mg. For non-fluoridated teens, it’s 0.86 mg/day. For people living and eating Primally? I’d wager it’s even lower and safer than that. You gotta look at the big picture. Complete avoidance of fluoride in all forms is impossible (and unnatural – remember, fluoride occurs naturally in water), so just make sure you’re good in all other aspects of health and let the chips fall where they will.
Did I miss anything? Are normal physiological doses of fluoride as dangerous as some people say? Is it all worth stressing over? I’m totally open to being enlightened. Let’s get it going in the comments (and I know you guys got plenty of ‘em!).
Grab a copy of Primal Blueprint Quick & Easy Meals for over 100 Primal Recipes You Can Prepare in 30 Minutes or Less
Posted By: Mark Sisson
I was pretty annoyed when the state government suddenly decided to add Fluoride to our water supply a few years ago, seems we were doing fine without it up until then. Of course the population was not asked their opinion on the issue. And justification was – issues with dental health of the population. Apparently it’s too hard to encourage best dietary practices, so as usual we end up with a barely helpful band-aid fix.
I agree. This is something we at least should vote on. At any rate you can remove fluoride from your water by using reverse osmosis system. I did a video on this few month ago. http://clicky.me/3LxY
I agree! It is frustrating when the choice isn’t even given. If people want to consume fluoride, that should certainly be their choice, but avoiding it should be a choice also without having to install costly filters.
We “take the risk” of filtering fluoride from our water and using our own natural remineralizing toothpaste (that I make) rather than a fluoride toothpaste. I’m also careful to make sure my family is getting enough Vitamin D and beneficial fats from their diet to help prevent decay.
And this “Apparently it’s too hard to encourage best dietary practices, so as usual we end up with a barely helpful band-aid fix” is a great point, and unfortunately it seems to be the norm in science lately (statins, diabetes meds, etc)
But what about our precious bodily fluids? Fluoridation is a commie plot!
I was just talking about the Dr. Strangelove claim that Russians are 70% vodka, explaining to one of my coworkers that he’s probably 70% RedBull. What a great movie.
Dr. Strange love was a great movie! I also remember very entertaining movies and other media events belittling… whole grains, gardening, small cars, yoga, voting independent, energy conservation, etc. Everything can be amusingly belittled, in media events or my those that are most comfortable believing what most others believe. Since I began switched to well water instead of fluoridated city water (several years ago) my wife and I have noticed how much easier calculus, physics, and supposedly difficult subjects are to comprehend. Although old, we are finding fluoridated acquaintances of our age range continuing to diminish in intellectual capacities. In reviewing pro- water fluoridation information and studies, I have often found shockingly poor scientific methodology oversights or apparent massaging of the data. Until the pro-fluoridation groups have well researched and scientifically optimally produced studies that are also not compromised by biases due to unethical funding sources, , my wife and I will be opposed to water fluoridation politically and otherwise.
I never considered the harmful effects of fluoride until I figured out that my chronic cystic acne was caused by fluoride ingestion, a condition called fluoroderma.
The level of fluoride added to most municipal water supplies is low enough not to cause a problem for most people. But fluoride accumulates in the body, so the more fluoride you’ve been exposed to over your lifetime, the greater your chance of having a negative reaction to it. I believe my fluoroderma was caused by the fluoride pills my dentists prescribed to me as a child (we had well water so I was missing the “positive” effects of fluoridated water).
Other foods contain fluoride besides foods made with fluoridated water. For me, the worst offended is non-organic chicken. It is high in fluoride because of the fluoride-based pesticides on the feed they consume. As with humans, it accumulates in their bones, skin, and fat. I don’t have a reaction to non-organic chicken as long as I stick to white meat. Mechanically de-boned chicken products (e.g. ground chicken, chicken, chicken nuggets, etc.) are ridiculously high in fluoride. Chicken soup made from non-organic bones will cause my skin to break out for two weeks!
Since I’ve been blogging about fluoroderma, I’ve heard from many other people who figured out they have the same condition. I suspect it is much more common than we think.
You’re confusing fluoride with fluorine. Some pesticides contain fluorine, but none of them contain fluoride. They are both forms of the element fluorine, but are chemically very different.
This is the same difference as between chloride (an ion, found in table salt) and chlorine, an atom found in things like PVC.
There are a lot of different fluoride compounds out there. Of course, even the fluoride added to the water supply is not pure fluoride. Fluoride is one of the most reactive elements, so even though we call it fluoride, we are rarely talking about just “fluoride.”
What I can say for certain is that my skin doesn’t know the difference.
No, fluoride is almost completely unreactive and it is not an element.
You’re still confusing fluorINE with fluorIDE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride
Since I grew up with the fluoride issue and it being added to our water supply, toothpastes, etc., I found the conversation between the comparison between fluorine and fluoride to be really fascinating. Like most people my age (I’m almost 67) we first embraced the addition of fluoride, but now as I read lots more about it, I’m not so sure — but that’s another forum.
Anyway, based on the posts here discussing the differences between fluorIDE and fluorINE, I did some checking on wikipedia and came up with the above links. I guess you’ll have to come to your own conclusions.
uh, sulfuryl fluorIDE is a common pesticide fumigant. So is Aluminum sodium fluorIDE.
Go to the EPA website, there are many uses for FluorIDE in pesticides.
http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/sulfuryl-fluoride/
uh, sulfuryl fluorIDE is a common pesticide fumigant. So is Aluminum sodium fluorIDE.
Go to the EPA website, there are many uses for FluorIDE in pesticides.
I also suffered severe and painful cystic acne around my mouth and chin. Mine was named “perioral dermatitis” caused by fluoride. I now use non-fluoride toothpaste, filters to remove fluoride from all water sources in the house, drink filtered water and refuse all fluoride dental treatments. No more cystic acne.
This is very interesting. Was it possible for you to try and isolate other variables that you may have though also contributed to acne you were having?
Where you diagnosed with Fluoroderma? How were they able to test you for this?
Does fluoride have any other role in the body except preventing caries? How does it prevent caries anyway? Is it built into the teeth like calcium?
It replaces calcium in teeth.
When your teeth demineralize, fluoride will fill into the empty spots. First signs are beige spots along the gum line on your teeth, those beige areas are usually spongy.
These beige spots (semi hard but brittle like sand stone) are not to be confused with plague.
I seriously recommend you read “Cure Tooth decay” by Ramiel Nagel, and how your teeth remineralize naturally with the right foods, based on Weston A Price’s research, before you advise on about how flouride “replaces cavities”.
Mike UK
ps: I last visited a dentist in 1989 (compulsory army checkup)!
And I am sure you have no cavities or any calculas that is causing heart disease, diabetes, or even bad breath! Ooh, you need to visit a dentist.
A good book. I’d recommend it also. I just wrote a post about how teeth can remineralize and the natural homemade toothpaste that I’ve use to do so. Fascinating stuff!
It takes the place of calcium in teeth WHEN YOUR TEETH ARE DEMINERALIZING AND YOU TAKE IN FLUORIDE.
I have read Ramiel Nagel’s Cure Tooth Decay…and Weston A. Price…and I do take cod liver oil, high vitamin butter oil and i get A, D E K2.
I seriously recommend you read Cure Tooth Decay AGAIN.
Fluoride does take the place of calcium in teeth and bones…but not in the sense that it replaces it when you take in adequate calcium and all the rest that goes with building bone, as stated in W.A.P. Book and Ramiel Nagels Book.
It is being deposited into teeth and bones, making them brittle. So if you lack bone building materials, fluoride is being deposited into teeth and bone.
Fluoride does not “replace cavities” and I don’t think anyone suggested that it does so.
From a Dental Prospective –
As a dental hygienist, I find it difficult to educate patients properly. I am primal in most all aspects of my life (of course I occasionally have a night of binge drinking at a wedding with a side of cake, or down a snickers bar after a long bike ride). I have read “Cure Tooth Decay” – it makes some valid points/arguments for a holistic approach to dentistry. And on the other hand, sometimes you just need a cavity filled or a good teeth cleaning. Unfortunately not everything can be reversed.
I believe our tooth problems ARE caused by our diets. The problem: We are taught in dental school that the bacterial removal by brushing and flossing is the “fix”. We (dental professionals) often have unrealistic expectations for our patients, as we are only treating the symptoms (depending on what you believe). We are often times critical of the homecare, but never attempt to educate ourselves or the patient to address the cause – diet. Improving the diet will decrease the bacterial build up. I believe it, but it’s not that simple in the office. Our society (especially the dental society) is all about the quick fix to the symptom; whether the symptom is a cavity, gingivitis, or periodontal disease. Dental offices give a person the quick fix and I hate to say it but fluoride is a quick fix that works.
I frequently get quizzed/lectured about fluoride by patients. It’s annoying, and I do not argue simply just to save my sanity and my time. I use topical fluoride sparingly – for severe demineralization and/or sensitivity. It would be great if EVERYONE would be primal and tooth decay or gum disease didn’t exist, but that’s not the reality. Dentistry including fluoride treatments is incredibly beneficial to a lot of people and probably was to you at one point in time.
This being said, I find it difficult to believe that you do not have some periodontal disease and/or cavities that started prior to your primal lifestyle. In “Cure Tooth Decay”, you’ll notice labels for temporary fillings – meaning it wasn’t all done by just diet. There was dental work involved. In dentistry, pain is often the last sign. And by the time you feel pain, your diagnosis and “fix” will be over a thousand dollars. Anyhow, I urge you to go to the dentist. Not everything is irreversible – prevention is the key. Prevention by diet AND dental care.
Anonymous, I’ll bet money that those ailments are correlational with poor oral health, not caused by them. Iow, they have the same root cause – nutrient-poor diet.
For me, fixing my diet got rid of cavities, stopped bad breath, and dramatically improved my cholesterol profile. Dentists are for fixing the problems caused by poor diet.
I’m more concerned about the residual estrogen in our water supply. Still, not a fan of the fluoride either.
And how did Grok survive without fluoride added to his water supply?
Fluoride is a trace mineral and is present in lots of plants.
It is also in trace amounts in animal tissue.
yeah, arsenic is a trace element found everywhere, but it doesn’t mean we should be mining it, concentrating itm and putting it into our drinking water.
Selenium is a trace element too. Like fluoride, selenium is useful in small amounts, but toxic in large amounts.
As Mark said, the dose makes the poison.
yes, but you can’t control your dose of Fluoride based on how it is being administered. Formula fed Infants receive WAY more fluoride than they should have. This mass-medication with no control to the individual dose is the problem. I should be able to determine how much Fluoride I want to ingest.
I think Mark is right when he says in the overall scheme of eating, exercising and living correctly fluoride is a minor issue.
(Ironically it’s often the people who haven’t addressed these aspects are the ones who are more concerned. Eg: a vegetarian who was concerned about estrogens in plastics, but was unaware of the phytoesterogens in soy.)
I find it interesting that pro-fluoride websites only really talk about cavities, as if that’s the only effect, or the only thing that’s important.
The reason that it’s added is because it’s an industrial waste product from aluminium processing. Businesses want a easy way to dispose of it and maybe make some money in the process. What’s concerning is that this idea of using unhealthy waste products is allowed and happens elsewhere: HFCS, feeding cows old chocolate and lollies, the ammonia treated ‘pink slime’ that Jamie Oliver did a piece on and more.
a minor issue for some, but not for the vulnerable people who need to avoid fluoride altogether. infants?
Just 2 days ago, the pediatrician asked me to give my 8 mo fluoridated water! I remember reading about fluoridated water being a scam on the WAPF site a couple of years ago, so I made a mental note to remember to read that article before heeding the pediatrician’s advice. This post couldn’t have come at a better time.
Many many quality potins there.
Well, you didn’t specifically address the issue with regards to children. We work a bit harder to limit our fluoride intake because of our children. Nearly every child in our neighborhood has significant fluorisis on the front teeth. My boys have none. With things like this, I always error on the side of extra caution when it comes to my children.
I did too then we changed dentists and he recommended a prescription strength fluoride toothpaste. I reluctantly used it on them and the cavities stopped happening but once again, with kids, it feels such a difficult call.
cavities happen because of sugar and carbohydrates sticking to the teeth. Fluoride helps correct this problem, but the source is the carbs and sugars. The problem isn’t fluoride toothpaste, it’s the water. Systemic exposure through water is nonsense.
Fluoride in the water is only beneficial systemically when your teeth are developing. Therefore only beneficial to children. Toxic amounts cause fluorosis ONLY when the teeth are developing.
I agree with you, it is nonsense and comparable to dosing the water with baby asprin to help with HBP. Preventing problems that we know are going to occur, but not looking into changing the cause.
No, cavities are caused from the inside out. Sugar takes the place of the fat soluble vitamins that are crucial for use of the minerals in our diet, but there are other foods that can do it. Without any sugar or grains at all, my toddler’s teeth all but disappeared because my milk wasn’t nutrient-dense because *I* wasn’t eating a nutrient-dense diet. Correcting my diet stopped his decay literally that very day.
I agree with your comments on fluoride, btw.
The toothpaste is also a problem because everyday you clean your teeth with fluoridated toothpaste, so some fluoride is absorbed in your mouth, it goes to your blood stream and to all your body including bones and brain. You only need to eliminate mechanically the oral bacteria causing decay (and their food, carbohydrates), so a toothpaste without fluoride can do it.
Make sure they’re getting enough fat and fat-soluble vitamins and minerals in their diets. People don’t get cavities from lack of fluoride toothpaste. I haven’t used one in years and I have a grand total of two fillings in my mouth. When I do get cavities they are slow to set in. I haven’t been following my own dietary advice or I would never have gotten any. (I forget to eat for too much of the day and, at least in my case, that’s not a good thing–by the time I’m hungry I rush to eat, and you can guess how that goes.)
oh and just as a point of reference I am 37. Full disclosure: I’ve lost one tooth to decay, have had both my upper wisdom teeth pulled and they were starting to decay at the time, and then now have the two fillings. I’m not sure how I got a good enough start that I am not worse off than that; my face is a wreck and I had to have two sets of orthodontic braces growing up. My palate is still narrow and my face is crooked, bad development all around. I remember eating liver before age ten or so, and that might have something to do with my relatively good luck. God knows that after I left home I didn’t take good care of myself at all. Had a soda habit for years and the whole nine yards. Not good about remembering to brush my teeth either.
Cavities can also be related to dietary stuff. Have you tried a toothpaste that would remineralize without the fluoride? Also, check your toothpaste for glycerine, which actually blocks the teeth from absorbing minerals.
If no one has ever seen this before, some one with more patience for academia might find this paper interesting. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9118877)
The native Tibetan diet involves consuming copious amounts of ‘brick tea’, mixed with high-fat yak butter. (It doesn’t taste great, but it’s hot and filling). Everyone drinks this stuff.
I’m not completely clear on the findings of the study and I am too lazy to look for and wade through the full text, but I thought I would add the info to the discussion.
Interesting 30 minute video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7319752042352089988#
Yes, I think you missed something. The naturaly occuring fluoride isn’t the same as the industrial waste product from aluminium processing, I mean fluoride they add to our water. As I understand it, it’s like apples and oranges. That’s why people are upset.
As American Cancer Society notes:
“Water fluoridation in the United States began in 1945, after scientists noted that people living in areas with higher water fluoride levels had fewer cavities.”
Herein lies the deception…the scientists noted that the areas were their were higher water fluoride levels, were areas in which the water had higher levels of Calcium Fluorophosphate…a naturally occurring substance in certain geographic locations, that is indeed beneficial for human consumption.
But the fluoride being put into the water supplies of most major metropolis areas in the country? That’s Sodium Fluoride…which is essentially a waste product from industrial aluminum production.
Very good point, Dave. Unofrtunately, like the Dental Hygienist who left the comment at the beginning of this thread mentioned, it is very hard to break that notion when dental professionals are being taught something very different in dental schools.
In my line of work, I often call dental offices and help them with hygiene product recommendation, and it’s upsetting to me how many of them prefer band-aid fixes versus getting to the root cause of the problem and using a holistic approach. On one hand, it’s provoding me with a job security at the moment, but on another, I personally don’t use paste with flouride and my teeth are great, and it makes my teetch cringe when dental hygienists say they use products with flouride to fix pretty much any problem.
Just today I called one office where a dental hygienists said she thinks the reason a lot of theit patients have cavities is because they live in a rural area where the water supply doesn’t have flouride in it. It has nothing to do that the area where she works is known to have many people practically being “addicted” to Mt. Dew. I don’t think they even know what tap water tastes like.
“Calcium Fluorophosphate…a naturally occurring substance” … Dave, that was a great point to make concerning the differences between how people are benefited by one compound of fluoride and possibly not another. It reminds me of how nuclear energy proponents write endlessly how safe it is and then one person makes one mistake in a “foolproof system” and it turns into a Chernobyl or Fukushima” meltdown/explosion. With governmental and regulatory leadership as corrupt and incompetent as it currently is, to reduce risk, we need to just stop water fluoridation, instead of TRY to switch to actual beneficial fluoride compounds.
I’m pretty sure those Paleolithic-era people who only lost maybe two or three teeth in their entire lifetimes (which was most of them) did not simply get lucky and find a Colgate mine. We overstate the necessity of fluoride to health–it’s called a trace mineral for a reason, and I’m not even convinced it’s a trace mineral.
We eat far, far less mineral in our diets than we used to do, and we are severely neglecting our animal-fat and fat-soluble vitamin intakes as well, with dire consequences for skeletal development and dental health. Until we get that dialed in as a society, fluoride is quite beside the point.
I keep going back to Weston Price on this one. He was a rare gem–a dentist who tried to find out how the teeth actually work, rather than just sell another fluoride potion that’s just as likely to make your teeth brittle as keep them from rotting.
Teresa makes a key point here, the fluoride being dumped into the water supply is an industrial waste product that literally burns wholes through cement (http://www.wqad.com/news/rock-island-hazmat-water-treatment-plant-03242011,0,4540527.story). Fluoride has been linked to reduced IQ (see American population for direct evidence), congregates heavily in the pineal gland, causes bone issues, hypothyroidism, and more. Here’s some good articles on the subject. You have to go outside beyond government studies to get any solid info.
http://www.naturalnews.com/fluoride.html
I’d be more worried about Chlorine in tap water than Fluoride.
Also, tomatoes are naturally high in fluoride.
Chlorine is easily removed, fluoride is not. Most people, especially the ones who are most vulnerable to fluoride toxicty cannot afford to remove it. Even those who can afford to remove it, can only remove it from their drinking water, not their cooking and bath water.
Unless you install a whole-house reverse osmosis filter, which is hideously expensive and restricts the flow of water, making every household activity utilizing water more onerous and time-consuming.
You’d be better off harvesting rainwater.
Chlorine is bad in water, but fluoride is worse. Stomach produces HCl every day and that does not kill us but if someone drinks some fluoride, the Fluoride ion combines with Hydrogen (from HCl) forming Hydrofluoric Acid, which could kill even Rasputin, the monk. Fluoride ions are more reactive than Chloride.
I do harvest rainwater off the roof. 50 foot by 40 foot roof on a 1 inch rain yields about 300,000 cubic inches or 2000 square feet 1 inch thick or 167 cubic feet of water (Double check my math..?). It’s crazy efficient. I run it through down spouts through cheap wire screens and then through sand on cloth and into large containers or onto the garden or lawn. Do you realize how much water this is in a year!!! of this rainwater, what we drink we put through a regular pitcher filter and the well water is always there too as our backup.
My Dad grew up in Germany and lived there his entire life.
The country does not allow (since after Hitler’s WWII experiment with fluoride on the puplic) Fluoridation of the puplic water supply.
My Dad has all 32 teeth with no gum disease and is 67 years old. He uses a german toothpaste (when he was a child they used regular soap) without Fluoride and never had a Cleaning done in his life.
Germany doesn’t do Cleanings.
I’ve also never met a german person with bad teeth…maybe crooked but never rotten.
All my classmates during Highschool had normal, white teeth.
Germany now does cleanings, and my German dentist is on me to switch to a flouridated toothpaste for my toddler. (plain soap!? blech!) Those white flecks on her teeth? Oh, they’re nothing to worry about.
But you’re quite right that Germans do not tolerate population-level interventions, including flouride.
Good to hear they do cleanings now in Germany…a check-up 2x a year sure would’ve been nice for me growing up.
My parents never took me to a dentist, only when I busted my front teeth and ‘needed’ a crown did they ‘recommend’ I’d have 4 fillings done on my molars to prevent tooth decay in the future.
I really want to slap my mother for this one and kill the dentist. I just found out about the whole amalgam vapor, too…been carrying those fillings around for 20+ years….those bastiches.
While I agree that we need to hit upon diet/exercise/sun/sleep ect I think fluoride is something to avoid and is a concern.
The fluoride added to tap water is by product of toxic waste.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLWk3cBnHOg
Personally, I don’t install filters or get water shipped in from Nepal but I do visit a local spring every month and collect my own clean water.
If we are concerned about getting clean food than I believe we should be concerned about getting clean water.
For local springs in your area check out:
http://www.findaspring.com
The following letter was received by the Lee Foundation for Nutritional Research, Milwaukee Wisconsin, on 2 October 1954, from Mr. Charles Perkins, a chemist: “I have your letter of September 29 asking for further documentation regarding a statement made in my book, The Truth About Water Fluoridation, to the effect that the idea of water fluoridation was brought to England from Russia by the Russian Communist Kreminoff. “In the 1930′s, Hitler and the German Nazi’s envisioned a world to be dominated and controlled by a Nazi philosophy of pan-Germanism. The German chemists worked out a very ingenious and far-reaching plan of mass-control which was submitted to and adopted by the German General Staff. This plan was to control the population in any given area through mass medication of drinking water supplies. By this method they could control the population in whole areas, reduce population by water medication that would produce sterility in women, and so on. In this scheme of mass-control, sodium fluoride occupied a prominent place.
“Repeated doses of infinitesimal amounts of fluoride will in time reduce an individual’s power to resist domination, by slowly poisoning and narcotizing a certain area of the brain, thus making him submissive to the will of those who wish to govern him.”
Mark, I appreciate your attention to this subject, but I found your article horribly shortsighted and narrowly focused.
The fact is water fluoridation is a radical public health experiment. There have been no long term studies to determine the safety and efficacy of medicating people with fluoride through drinking water. All of the science is incomplete and many studies show some serious concerns. Until, these concerns are fully addressed, there should be a moratorium on this practice.
We are being medicated with no control over the individual dose. Many populations, including infants, children, diabetics, folks with kidney and thyroid problems need to completely avoid fluoridated water, which is practically impossible. You kinda take a bourgeois position with this, saying that if we address other parts of our health we shouldn’t need to worry about fluoride. C’mon man, that’s ridiculous. A formula fed infant(yes, many mom’s physically cannot lactate) is receiving 250x the amount of fluoride than what a nursing baby receives. That is a straight-up crime.
The fact is we are all getting overdosed with fluoride and the problem is getting worse because of it’s bioaccumulation and persistence in the environment. We are mining it, concentrating it, and adding it to our environment at unprecedented and unnatural levels. It’s doesn’t go away. It stays with us in our bodies, soil, and water. The CDC just recently announced that 40% of all adolescents show signs of fluorosis, which is fluoride toxicity. 40%!! thats an epidemic.
Why are we ingesting this stuff? The way it works is we drink it, it floods our body systemically, gets into our saliva and then touches our teeth. All this, and there is a perfectly fine way of getting a controlled dose of fluoride to your teeth, by brushing your teeth with fluoride toothpaste, no systemic exposure.
Cavities don’t happen because of lack of fluoride, they happen because of sugar and carbohydrates sticking to your teeth.
Yeah. Maybe 5 percent of moms can’t physically lactate. Most of the time, problems with breastfeeding stem from inadequate support and instruction, or from the fact that it’s easier to nurse than to pump, but so many mothers have to go back to work.
And there’s a special place in hell for whoever invented fluoridated “nursery water” for babies. OMFG.
Hah, you’re telling me! I got my pediatrician trying to get my wife and I to start giving our baby fluoride supplementation. Like hell I will.
THANK YOU. I am so tired of people bandying this “many women can’t lactate” stuff around – it plants a seed of doubt in many women’s minds which, in the absence of a pro-BF culture, grows into another formula-fed infant. A cultural deficiency masquerading as a physical inability.
If as many women physically couldn’t lactate as think they can’t, we’d have died out long ago. For that small minority who can’t, modern medicine has a second-rate alternative that keeps babies alive if wet nurses are unavailable.
If you think municipal water supply has been one giant science experiment, look up the history and evolution of infant formula!
As one who actually was unable to lactate (doc, la leche nazis all agreed!) please watch how you attack us! By the way, our tween son is very very healthy, gifted (all-around, not subject-specific), active and generally eats very well. I didn’t WANT to bottle-feed, we simply had no choice because he wasn’t thriving properly and I was thoroughly checked out by those who wanted to help me with the natural approach – not discouraging it. As a then stay-at-home mom, I had plenty of breastfeeding support and fully intended to do it til he was a toddler. Be kind to those of us who mourn(ed) that opportunity but also please note that he doesn’t appear to have suffered either.
Tracy I’m sorry I can’t seem to reply to your comment directly – perhaps a limit on stacking.
My comment was about the casual comments that people sometimes make which gather into what is often called common ‘knowledge’. It takes a lot of support and determination – as you had – to overcome the whispers of that ‘knowledge’ when faced with the challenges of early parenting.
Your situation is (was) exactly what I was referring to re medical necessity. There is a portion of the human population that this affects, and you eliminated other explanations before determining that you are in fact in that 2-5% segment. Infant formula is a medical intervention but it’s being marketed as a lifestyle choice without sufficient disclosure of the risks that can entail (which you are obviously aware of); *that’s* what I’m attacking.
It’s great that your child is thriving! We all worry about that, no matter what container our babies’ food comes in.
Hugs Lauren. I come from a culture where BFing is the norm, I educated myself on BFing before my baby was born and heck, I started producing colostrum in the 8th month of my pregnancy. Despite my producing colostrum and my baby having no problem latching, there was so much pressure in the hospital for me to give my baby formula. I put my foot down and refused. But how many women out there would say no when the physicians/nurses insist their babies be given formula? Makes me soooo mad. “Low Supply” is a western syndrome.
But I do agree that formula is necessary for a small %age of the population who can’t lactate. If we had human milk banks, then formula wouldn’t be as prevalent as it is now. “Milk, Money, Madness” is a great book on how the formula culture became so prevalent in the west.
I’m afriad to look that one up…=P
Been researching everything else, conspiracy behind 911, Blue Gold, Cancer Cure and Scam, Pet Foods, Grains, MSG, and the list goes on…never thought about infant formula.
I’m a formula baby from the 70′s, never gotten mothers milk in my life.
Maybe that’s why I crave my Raw Goat Milk so much now…making up for lost times.
Ironically though, even though I was a formula baby I produce the enzyme lactase.
my wife couldn’t lactate and she’s a stay-at-home mom. Regardless the reason, the fluoride is the problem, not the formula.
Dana, I mentioned this above, my pediatrician asked me to give my 8 mo fluoridated water. Good thing I didn’t listen to her.
Well said!!
Very nicely put, Daniel.
I would go one step farther though in regards to brushing teeth with flouride paste. You do still ingest quite a bit of it when you use paste regardless of good you are about rinsing the paste out.
All the same arguments for adding fluoride to our drinking water could be used to justify adding statins to our drinking water – and they’d be just as valid.
Just something to think about.
Since topical fluoride is far more effective than ingested fluoride, there are known toxic and deleterious effects from fluoride ingestion, and topical fluoride is trivially available in all toothpastes, I see no reason to add it to drinking water, and every reason to oppose it whenever possible.
JS
And you don’t even need topical fluoride. The whole fluoride thing’s a racket. Even if they really did find people with better dental health in areas of the world with more fluoride in the soil, you can get as much benefit from simply eating right for your body’s nutritional needs.
Some people can really benefit from topical fluoride.
Very good point- “All the same arguments for adding fluoride to our drinking water could be used to justify adding statins to our drinking water – and they’d be just as valid.”
I worry that its not unreasonable to think this might happen one day! I’d say that especially with a primal diet, there is more reason to oppose fluoride, as teeth will naturally be healthier and have less risk for cavities anyway.
They arguments also apply to adding chlorine to tap water.
Chlorinated water prevents most water-borne diseases, but comes with health risks of its own. These risks are minor (like the minor risks from floridation) but these risks are imposed on the community since they are far outweighed by the benefits.
(The main risk from chlorine are disinfection by-products, produced by the reaction of the chlorine with organics)
There is a world of difference between sodium fluoride (NaF) added to water and naturally-occuring calcium fluoride (CaF).
Murray Rothbard did a nice (thoroughly-cited) write-up on this, ‘Fluoridation Revisited’. In a nutshell, Alcoa ran a cynical PR campaign to convince Americans to dump a known industrial pollutant (NaF) in their water.
Totally.
Consider that prior to mass fluoridation of municipal water, Alcoa and other aluminum manufacturers used to have to PAY to dispose of their NaF by-product…because it was known as a toxic, industrial pollutant.
Now, they SELL their toxic byproduct to municipalities under the guise of “public health.”
Kinda like Big Ag supporting the food pyramid to get the public to eat “heart healthy whole grains.”
There is no difference whatsoever once you dissolve them in water. Calcium fluoride will separate into calcium ions and fluoride ions, while sodium fluoride instead separates into sodium and fluoride ions.
Since sodium and calcium ions are present in quite large amounts all natural water, adding a bit more of one or the other is not going to change anything.
I must say it is quite depressing how few facts are behind this anti-fluoride rhetoric, and how little chemistry the “natural bodily fluids” people seem to understand.
The concern is that the alleged benefits of fluoridation are actually coming from the calcium. In the case of NaF, there are no benefits to outweigh the toxic F.
You certainly know chemistry. Did you read the Rothbard piece? It’s short and a fun read, and he is a well-respected economist.
That’s an interesting idea, but most of the calcium in water comes from calcium carbonate (limestone). The paper
How Much Calcium Is in Your Drinking Water? HSS J. 2006 September; 2(2): 130–135.
gives an average of 50 mg/L calcium in US tap water, so adding 1 mg/L of calcium (as CaF) will change this level by 2%. This might be significant in low calcium tap water, but that seems to be quite rare.
Your point on limestone is exactly how Alcoa played the scam. Their mission was to associate something, anything, positive with F. So they looked for natural sources of CaF2, generally from nearby limestone, documented carie benefits, then used the transitive property to impute the benefit from the Ca to the F, thence to NaF.
I don’t understand, limestone doesn’t contain fluoride. Most natural fluoride comes from fluorapatite.
Sorry, sloppy on my part – neither geology nor chemistry are my forte. My understanding is fluorapatite is a Ca-F blend (inter alia). So, rewriting,
‘Their mission was to associate something, anything, positive with F. So they looked for natural sources of fluoride, documented carie benefits, then used the transitive property to impute the benefit from the Ca to the F, thence to NaF.’
Isn’t calcium carbonate chalk?
To Tim on your comments, “it is quite depressing how few facts’ and ‘how little chemistry the “natural bodily fluids people seem to understand.”…Notice that people that say things like this usually don’t have verifiable facts and their knowledge of chemistry is usually inadequate to make such condescending and authoritative statements?
Sodium fluoride when dissolved in water doesn’t exist as sodium fluoride, it’s ionized into sodium and fluoride ions. Which then mingle with other things in solution (calcium, magnesium, potassium, iron, etc). In fact, some of the fluoride in NaF is actually in hydrofluoric acid form (a minute amount though).
This difference between CaF2 and NaF is rather silly and indicative of ignorance of the science involved.
Yes, this is a topic that usually brings out ignorance and anti-government rhetoric from the health freedom/anti-vaccination crowd.
But on the other hand, that fact that Mark rightly dismissed this foolishness is another sign of the overall quality of this blog.
Yeah, right.
So we’re supposed to believe that there is no difference between a naturally occurring trace mineral in a local water supply versus dumping the byproduct of industrial aluminum production into the water supply?
No so much in the chemicals, but a big difference in the emotive words you’ve selected.
I make decisions on facts, not fancy rhetoric.
Emotive Rhetoric and not facts?
Let’s see who’s used “emotive rhetoric” here:
“I must say it is quite depressing how few facts are behind this anti-fluoride rhetoric…”
“Yes, this is a topic that usually brings out ignorance and anti-government rhetoric from the health freedom/anti-vaccination crowd.”
Yet you call my statement that the fluoride used in public water works is largely the by product of aluminum production…”emotive rhetoric.”
I guess “anti-government rhetoric” means the community of people here should just ignore all of Mark’s advice and go back to the government approved, USDA Pyramid based diet so as to gain the approval of duplicitous, hypocritical assholes such as yourself?
Tim, your comments are foolish. Even if fluoride was safe, there are many other toxins in the chemical wastes, they are not pure fluoride. And yes, there is a difference between naturally occurring stuff and man-made. I have read about a group in the Seychelles (I think) with 20x more mercury in their bodies because of all the seafood they eat, but they don’t have the same problems that are seen in the west where people have such high mercury levels. The reason? They’re getting mercury from volcanoes and not from some industrial waste. Get a brain.
The difference is whether, once the Ca is stripped out, there is any benefit to F. If the benefit comes from the Ca, then NaF has no upside to compensate for the F.
So, regardless if it’s natural fluoride or the industrial waste, what’s important is the amount, no?
We tolerate both in only trace amounts, right?
Fluoride reacts with the calcium in our teeth to form a fluorinated hydroxyapatite (a calcium phosphate mineral). It doesn’t need calcium in solution to function. That’s why topical fluoride works so well, you let the fluoride react with your teeth and you end up with harder teeth more resistant to acid wear.
Peter, thank you for pointing that out. Very good point.
If we accept fluoride in our drinking water, no matter how much or how little the government allows, we have to accept the risk that something will go wrong at the water company and they might discharge more than a safe level by accident. And accidents do occur. And furthermore I resent being made to ingest a substance if I did not consent to doing so. I don’t have a choice whether or not to drink water; if I don’t drink at least some on a daily basis, I will ruin my health and eventually die. And I am not flush with cash to go out and stock up on the bottled stuff–that is just a ridiculous expenditure.
Someone said they were more worried about chlorine in the water than fluoride. I’m not worried about chlorine in water. Why? Because an activated charcoal filter will remove chlorine and, unlike with boiling, won’t leave behind any byproducts. But no cheap filter will remove fluoride. I would have to install a reverse osmosis filter for my entire household. That just isn’t in the cards.
The traditional groups Dr. Weston Price studied weren’t all using Crest toothpaste to brush after every meal. They weren’t drinking fluoridated water. They were eating healthy foods and getting plenty of fat, fat-soluble vitamins, and minerals, which all work synergistically to improve and maintain bone and dental health. This was not just Dr. Price saying this. I’ve found studies through Google, actual research abstracts, linking fat intake with improved mineral absorption. I also know that menatetrenone (vitamin K2, analog mk-4) is essential for the production of osteocalcin, which is the material that strengthens tooth dentin. You could wear the enamel off your teeth and still not get cavities if your dentin is strong enough. The enamel is merely a line of defense, nothing more.
(Osteocalcin, by the way, is metabolically active and directs your adipose tissue to release a chemical called adiponectin, which in turn increases insulin sensitivity throughout the body. Now you know at least one reason tooth decay and diabetes are so closely related.)
The solution to tooth decay is to encourage people to eat in ways that build up their overall physical health. We are failing at that as a society. And like it or not it IS one of society’s roles to encourage proper eating habits. The trouble is that we’ve replaced peer and family pressure with the Cult of the Expert and government edict. Experts and bureaucrats don’t know you and don’t care about you. All they see is what their lobbyists tell them and what cuts their paychecks.
Putting drugs in the food supply is not going to make this problem go away.
I foresee many dental offices going out of business and companies like Crest and Colgate would be pretty upset if all of a sudden the public educated themselves on how to eliminate dental problems by changing their diet.
I guess I can say the same about conventional medical field and pharmaceutical companies.
Hi Mark, I think you are really taking the wrong perspective to this- essentially treating fluoride as innocent until proven guilty. The only sane way of dealing with health issues is the opposite- the precautionary approach. Things unnatural to human evolution should be proven safe.
In the case of fluoride, every piece of evidence indicates that it is a toxin inside the human body. Sure, a healthy person can deal with moderate levels of toxins. But why are we going out of our way and being taxed to put toxins our water? There are toxins that are hard to remove from our environment. We need to go after low-hanging fruit like water fluoridation- removing the toxin means an immediate savings in money.
Those who still feel the need for fluoride can buy fluoridated toothpaste.
I assume that since you say “every piece of evidence” you must have read Yeung’s 2008 paper. What did you think of his main points?
Yeung’s paper is typical of pro-fluoride evidence. It is sponsored by the other fluoride oddball: Australia, and reaches all the same conclusions of American papers.
So unfortunately it has to be viewed with some suspicion. Europe actually takes the precautionary approach to health and doesn’t fluoridate their water- their analysis would be much more credible.
In any case, this paper is consistent with the hypothesis I stated: fluoride is a toxin that would be reasonable to apply to *teeth* with toothpaste, but makes little sense to swallow.
If they want the poor to have fluoride they should work with manufacturers to make toothpaste fluoridated and spend their money making it cheaper/easier to attain for the poor. Of course that money would be even better spent on giving them access to primal foods, but that is another debate.
You can’t spell Fluoride without F L O U R
Fluoride makes you not care what the government is doing. This article is proof.
Another great post! I have wondered about fluoride… When I was a child my parents distilled all our drinking water. To this day I have constant teeth problems (cavities) even though twice a day I floss, brush and mouthwash. Dentists have told me that the distillation resulted in the removal of fluoride and other minerals that we “need.” (We also used fluoride-free toothpaste when I was growing up). Whatever the truth, today I do use fluoride toothpaste, although I give my son who is two fluoride-free yet because he swallows it. And, I’m more concerned about water from plastic bottles than I am about water from a city tap.
Distilling water removes ALL minerals so your body pulled from your bones and teeth. Your teeth are bad because there were no minerals not just fluoride.
Distilled water wouldn’t be a problem if you eat a mineral rich diet.
You want all those trace minerals? Use natural sea salt in your cooking and as your table salt.
Dawn, I’m sorry to say this, but the reason you had problems with your teeth was most likely not the absence of flouride. It is true, however, that water distilling removes all minerals, and if that’s what you drank growing up, your bones might have very well been lacking in essential minerals needed. That in it’s own could have resulted in cavities.
I come from the opposite side of this argument. I had fluoridated water as a child and it ruined my teeth. I now have fluorosis which makes my teeth mottled and have soft pock spots on them. I’ve spent years battling my natural proclivity to cavities due to this, and my dentists even said that this was the cause whilst proscribing more fluoride in my diet.
I moved away from fluoridated water and now used a baking soda/xylatol toothpaste and have noticed a huge improvement in my teeth. I still have to fight tooth and nail to prevent cavities, but it’s less likely to occur now. I’m the only one of my siblings that has these problems and it was because they were all born after we left the city with fluoridated water.
I’m pretty sure that fluoride has zero dental benefits once ingested so I’m not keen on it being added to drinking water. It’s a great topical treatment to aid remineralization, however.
Sure, it would be great if our mothers were so well nourished while we were developing our teeth in utero and if we grew up eating WAP style diets so that we wouldn’t need fluoride in the first place.
But you can only do so much if the SAD was a part of your life growing up and you reach adulthood with wrecked teeth. Then, (topical) fluoride is your friend. It takes a lot of time, experimentation and patience to stabilize dental disease through diet and once teeth are already compromised by fillings and such diet alone may not be enough to maintain teeth and restorations.
misterworms – You might want to check this out:
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/04/images-of-tooth-decay-healing-due-to.html
This is where most of us are, so it makes sense to think from this perspective in the short term and aim for the ideal for the future – like, when we’ve got two consecutive healthy generations to build on.
In an effort to consume the highest quality water at the lowest possible cost we recently purchased a Berkey water filter with supplemental fluoride filters. Compared to the amount of bottled water we were buying our break even point will be one year. Filter replacement cycle is three years. Better water at one third the cost.
I dont know specifically about Berkey filters but I know my own fluoride filter is only rated for 4000 litres and the first one failed after 4 months, or about 1000 litres.
I have a fluoride filter because my dog is fluoride sensitive. [Apparently] fluoride does something to digestive enzymes and his pancreas struggled to keep up. He’s fine now but we know the filter needs changing when he does that praying pose common in pancreatitis. We have a lot less vet bills now which more than covers the cost of the filters.
Water makes up over two-thirds of the human body. To focus so much on food while neglecting water quality is foolish in my opinion.
Water is involved in numerous physiological functions, and to proceed without proper caution will only set oneself up for disaster.
I’ve noticed that not too many people in the Paleo community address water quality. When a substance that comprises so much of the human body is overlooked, true health will never be attained.
To avoid government forced pharmaceutical dumping, the best option is to opt for natural spring water from wild springs. There are plenty of natural springs across the world, and with a little bit of research, they can be located and will provide the best water available.
Spring water … from deep, underground aquifers…filtered by mother nature = true hydration.
And besides, all this talk about neolithic foods … isn’t tap water neolithic?
As a chemist who did elemental Fluorine research and as a practicing dentist of 32 years, the comments and misinformation being given here is just plain scary. Water fluoridation has been THE most cost effective method for reducing decay, which is one of the most prevalent “diseases” in our population! YES(!!) ….if you brush and floss and minimize the carbs that feed the bugs that produce the acids that dissolve holes in your teeth, fluoride is of little benefit to you! But it is enormously helpful for the vast majority of the population ….at very little cost! Continuing research HAS shown that with all the sources of fluoride available now, what was once the optimal dosage in the water was too much and caused mild “fluorosis” (harmless white spots)….so the recommended optimal levels have been reduced to reduce this cosmetic problem! It takes an ENORMOUS amount of fluoride to cause severe Fluorosis in teeth and skeletons.
I completely agree with Mark’s moderate approach …..if fluoride is a concern to you, there are certainly ways to reduce your exposures….. but please have some consideration for those who are unable/willing to help themselves! In an ideal world with good diets and hygiene this wouldn’t be an issue ….but trust me ….it aint happenin in the real world!
As a chemist who did elemental Fluorine research and as a practicing dentist of 32 years, the comments and misinformation being given here is just plain scary.
Scary? I’ve yet to see a few of you like minded folks rebut the basic assertion: that the fluoride used to fluoridate the water supplies is industrial byproduct.
The studies used to show the supposed benefits of fluoridated water were based on epidemiological studies on populations for whom their water supply contained naturally occurring calcium fluoride…but the fluoride being used is the byproduct of phosphate fertilizer and aluminum manufacturing.
People like you expect us to just accept that there is no difference?
Water fluoridation has been THE most cost effective method for reducing decay
Cost effective for who? Aluminum and phosphate manufacturers looking to sell their byproducts.
Ah nevermind. I’m glad you stated your credentials as a dentist and chemist. I’ll just forget my pesky little points here and just blithely go along with the most cost effective means of preventing tooth decay.
you are totally ignoring studies that have been done in nearly EVERY country in the world ….this topic has been studied to death! A YES there are lots of studies done where the fluoride was added in the manner in which you describe ……same result!
the ORIGINAL studies were done in an aluminum mining area BECAUSE of a scare that the severe fluorosis (BROWN DISCOLORATIONof the teeth) seen commonly in that area was being caused by aluminum. Turns out it was the natural fluorides in the water from those very same salts.And those kids rarely got decay! By optimizing the dosage of a naturally occurring ion in the water it was determined that you could preserve the “no decay” benefit and lose the fluorosis problem! No different than optimizing the sodium ions (salt)_ in your diet …..or the iodide ions in your diet. Not enough (or too much!) of either of these “chemicals” and you get serious consequences ….nothing wrong with OPTIMIZING the dosage!
Tell me that EVERY DAY you are not working to OPTIMIZE the chemicals that you put into your body ……..protiens and amino acids ……sucrose and glucose……lectins ….yes they are all chemicals!! That is why you are on this site!!
40% of US adolescents have fluorosis. you call this optimized?
Your work experience is of little relevance. Chemists and dentists are not toxicologists. Dentists aren’t even taught to diagnose fluorosis. When they see it, they treat it as a “cosmetic issue”, when in fact fluorosis, is a systemic overexposure to fluoride. The same effects to your teeth occur to your bones. It is laughable that dentists, as a public servants, write fluorosis off.
Your focus is oral health, yet you support the delivery of a medicine to the entire body without any regard for it’s effects to the rest of the skeletal system. It’s absurd and a horrible abuse of the profession.
” but please have some consideration for those who are unable/willing to help themselves! ”
you have got to be kidding. More like unable or unwilling to filter it out of their water. Theses are the same people who are at higher risk for over-toxicity. 40% of adolescents have fluorosis. what gives?
You have fluorosis because your MD prescribed fluoride tablets, because your parents asked them to. Why not just have your water tested for fluoride before adding more to your system, & maybe brush your teeth.
“but trust me” why should I? Just because you were a chemist who did fluorine research, and were a dentist?? Some of the most illogical people I’ve ever met were dentists. Dentists are the reason for mercury in fillings. Chemists are the creators of white sugar. My current dentist (Who is a great guy!) tells me privately that most dentists are arrogant, materialist, and self-serving. …and the chemistry teachers most of us had in college that couldn’t teach, or the chemists I used to work with that kept arguing that there is no advantage to organic foods, or the nazi chemists that designed gas chambers ovens for the camps. Because one has a degree doesn’t mean they are ethically superior or haven’t chosen to defend the most profitable and popular topic. That takes no courage at all. Great courage IS required to ask questions that go against the consensus.
Hi Mark
I love that you include so much detailed information in your posts. I always wondered about fluoride. But I don’t think I am going to add it to my stress over list. Since I got to worry more about eating the right nutrition, getting enough sleep and exercise into my daily regimen. I do filter my water and I have a TDS device to measure it, I also buy fluoride free toothpaste, I am not really going out of my way since it’s freely available at stores.
I am not convinced the amount of fluoride in drinking water is 100% safe for someone with hypothyroidism, but at the same time, I’m not going to lose sleep over it. I just filter my water when I am home, and get on with my life. I dont bother with special toothpastes or anything.
I can understand the point you make, that for us healthy Primal eaters, the fluoride content is not a major health concern. However, I also feel it fully justified to object to the fluoridation of water on principle.
Its level of toxicity is obviously dose dependent as well as dependent on the relative health of the individual ingesting it. I’m sure there are plenty of people out there who have thyroid problems and such who would be harmed by even a small dosage. And there are people with messed up electrolyte balances or other concerns that mean they have to drink a lot to stay hydrated. And of course small children are most likely going to be negatively effected at a smaller dose, due to their size.
The issue with fluoridation of water is that you have no control over it, virtually no way to avoid it if you are sensitive to its effects. While you may be benefiting the dental health of some individuals, you may be harming the health of others who are susceptible to the harmful effects of fluoride. And whereas those who would benefit from fluoride can take fluoride on their own, use fluoride-toothpastes, or simply eat a proper diet, those who would be harmed can do nothing to prevent their fluoride exposure, save install a filter, which many probably can’t do due to the excessive cost.
So even if the fluoride levels added to water make it safe for most, if it’s not 100% safe for all, I would argue against it, as those who could benefit from it have many more and much better options of improving their dental health. Dental hygiene is a matter of personal responsibility, not something to be imposed upon everyone without their consent, with potentially harmful side effects if the dose is high enough.