Marks Daily Apple
Serving up health and fitness insights (daily, of course) with a side of irreverence.
9 Sep

Is Conventional Wisdom Set in Stone?

stone2In previous posts and with offhand comments, I’ve mentioned our (mostly) diametric opposition to Conventional Wisdom. I say “mostly” because when it comes to diet, there are bound to be a few areas that everyone agrees with. Real food that doesn’t come in a box is best – I can’t think of any diet book or nutritional “expert,” vegan or carnivore alike, that would say differently. Vegetables can and should be enjoyed freely – I’d even wager that most Primal eaters consume far more vegetables than your average pasta vegetarian. And, while we’re not fruitarians (you’d probably have to go back three or four million years to find a frugivorous hominoid that may be a common ancestor), we modern Primals do eat reasonable amounts of certain fruits. The areas where we virulently disagree – on saturated fat (and dietary fat in general), on red meat, on grains and legumes – are incredibly divisive. You can shun processed foods and eat organic and no one will argue against it, but once you bust out the jar of freshly rendered lard, the bacon, and the eight egg omelets while failing to produce a single cereal grain-based item, everyone becomes a nutritionist/cardiologist/dietitian.

If you’re like me, you might sigh, shrug your shoulders, and return to your greasy repast instead of engaging them with an overview of all the misguided, downright false nutritional info that masquerades as common sense. I’ve been down that road before, and I don’t want to be the guy on the corner with the bullhorn. (There is a proper time and forum for these things.) In fact, I started this blog and wrote the book because they allowed me to make the case and provide references without interruptions. Confronting people in real life about deeply held nutritional beliefs (about as deep-seated as religion, in fact) usually doesn’t end well. Humans have a nasty habit of clinging on to dogma all the more vigorously when it’s threatened with logic and reason.

If you’re relatively new to this lifestyle, though, I bet you can’t resist those moments – because I still get the bug at times. You’re at a company barbecue chowing down on a massive steak and the heavy guy with the plate of macaroni salad (made with light mayo!) smirks and makes a flippant comment about your arteries, completely oblivious to the beast he’s just awakened. The insulin-fat connection, Taubes’ work, the evolutionary basis for the Primal Blueprint, Ancel Keys’ tunnel vision – you bring it all out, and any impartial observer would have to conclude you were on to something. But Macaroni Man is no impartial observer; in fact, very few of us are, and trying to convince someone to carefully consider facts that run contrary to Conventional Wisdom is hard to accomplish in a social setting. You’ll probably go crazy if you try to, and the people around you will just tune you out if you keep it up. No one wants to hear about the evils of whole grains when the waiter drops off the basket of steaming freshly-baked bread.

But we can’t get too complacent or isolated, especially when the arbiters of Conventional Wisdom start to get comfortable. If we let them, they’ll freely spout complete and utter BS that only serves as disinformation. Take the recent appearance of Elizabeth Ward, R.D., on the Today Show.

Picture1 6

This is a person – a registered dietitian – who doles out health and nutrition advice on a regular basis in exchange for money. This is a person who has written a book called “Expect the Best: Your Guide to Healthy Eating Before, During, and After Pregnancy” – and yet her choices for healthy food on the road consist of McDonald’s, Burger King, Taco Bell, and gas station convenience store fare. I don’t know about you, but that doesn’t sound like someone who actually expects the best out of people. It sounds like a health official enabling a population’s propensity to load up on junk food. It sounds like just another CW-spouting pundit who aims for the lowest common denominator (unless she truly believes that a McDonald’s breakfast and a stale beef wrap from a truck stop represent a valid healthy option) in order to protect the people from themselves.

And that’s not the only one. What about the recent crop of “Healthy Food” lists? “Women’s Health” just published their healthy list of “Best Packaged Foods.” With stuff like Haagen Dazs Sorbet (Fat free! 25g carbs, “fights heart disease,” apparently) and Mister Salty 100 Calorie Chocolate Pretzel Snack bags (you know they’re eating all six bags in a single sitting) making the cut, you can’t help but wonder about their motivation. But wait! It’s not all bad. Bagged fruit made the list. Hrm… On second thought, does an apple really belong on a packaged foods list? Well, I suppose if you put it in a plastic bag it does. It sort of gets by on a technicality. You could put a Twinkie in the middle of a forest and say it comes from Mother Nature, but you aren’t fooling anyone. (On another note: are people really too lazy to slice up some apples that they need individually wrapped slices?) In any case, a “Best Packaged Foods” lists is sort of like putting together a list of the “Best Terminal Illnesses.” Sure, some may not be as bad as others, but in the end you’d be better off not having any of them.

At least Women’s Health made the point of specifically limiting themselves to only packaged foods. Self Magazine, on the other hand, boldly proclaimed the greatness of their 2009 Healthy Food Awards list, but every item on there comes in a box, wrapping, or package all the same. I guess when your intent is to promote certain brands, you’re somewhat limited in your choices. It’s pretty hard to print a label on a New York strip steak, or brand a handful of fresh raspberries (though I’m sure someone’s trying). Still, it’s great knowing that sour gummy candy is completely and utterly healthy!

Sour Patch Watermelon

(150 calories, 0 g fat per 21 pieces)

Sometimes, you just need sugar! These sweet-sour suckers were voted the tastiest way to sweeten your day. “Gummi goodness!” a taster said. “The right amount of pucker.”

You know, my doctor did recently recommend I incorporate more pucker into my diet, and this could be just the ticket. Thanks, Self Magazine! But what about satisfying the RDA of “warm, gooey mouthfuls”? Look no further than Self’s favorite healthy treat:

Pepperidge Farm Soft Baked Oatmeal

(140 calories, 5 g fat per cookie)

These cinnamon treats are chewy, sweet and huge enough to satisfy a monster-sized cookie desire. Nuke a cookie for 30 seconds for a warm, gooey mouthful.

Engorged cookie desire (ECD) is, after all, one of our nation’s leading afflictions. I’m glad someone’s finally decided to confront that scourge.

Of course, not everyone buys into this nonsense, but what’s disconcerting is that even when you “get it,” you often don’t. Take the people who commented on this Huffington Post article; they railed against Ward’s advice as ill-founded and misguided, but they countered with another layer of dietary CW – the anti-fat, pro-grain mindset. We’re up against multiple levels of harmful Conventional Wisdom, folks. You knock out the easy one (lowered expectations) and three more pop up (saturated fat is evil, grains are healthy, restrict your calories) like a hydra.

First, there’s the popular notion that the people are unable to make decisions for themselves. Doctors give up on their patients ever making lifestyle changes and instead simply write a prescription for statins and blood pressure medication. Personal trainers stick the overweight clients on a treadmill for an hour, because they want to make exercise easy and “accessible.” Registered dietitians go on national television and recommend that families eat fast food to stay healthy. And we wonder why we’re a nation of obese, disease-stricken pill poppers?

Second, there’s the fact that the basic nutritional science underlying all this advice is completely misguided. You peel away the lack of confidence doctors and health experts have in people to reveal an even more insidious underbelly. Even if Elizabeth Ward thought Americans were up to the task of actually eating healthy (what? there are no grocery stores on the road?), she’d still tell them to count calories religiously, eat plenty of whole grains, and avoid any and all saturated fat. The commenters at the Huffington Post rightly took Ward to task for her advice, but as the healthy alternative they in turn parroted the Conventional Dietary Wisdom that caused the obesity, diabetes, and other chronic diseases in the first place! Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

See, a lot of people understand that lowered expectations beget paltry results. If you set the bar too low, you invite failure. But what happens when the ideal is wrong, too? What happens when the people manage to hurdle the first bar, only to bang their teeth against the higher, supposedly ideal level? Those few souls who manage to follow their doctors’ health advice to the tee – eating more whole grains, avoiding animal foods, counting calories until they’re essentially starving themselves – are usually miserable creatures, and they usually fail. Any why wouldn’t they? We expect misery when we eat “healthy.” Eating right is supposed to be an awful experience. Healthy foods taste terrible, while all the foods that we’re genetically programmed to desire are actually awful for us – or so they say. It’s almost like we’re beholden (for life) to some original dietary sin, and eating things that actually taste good means we’re giving in to our animalistic, primal urges (sounds good to me, to be quite honest!).

If the assembled opposition to a healthy Primal lifestyle looks like a jumbled mess, that’s because it is. If the forces aligned to uphold CW don’t seem to make any sense, it’s because they do not. That’s the point. Conventional Wisdom is cognitive dissonance in action. It’s taking a bunch of inaccurate assumptions that conflict with each other and trying to make them all agree – a monumental task requiring the efforts of millions of complicit people (some unwitting, others willful). Because of CW, diabetic patients are told to eat less fat and more carbs. Because of CW, the obese are told to jog an hour every day, even though it only makes them hungrier for more insulin-spiking carbohydrates. It’s sick, it simply isn’t working, and something has to be done.

But even as they bumble and stumble over their words, the promoters of CW are legion. They wield the power, and unseating them is going to be tough. The small but growing Primal community online is doing their part, slowly chipping away at the BS. You see evidence of this in the teeming farmers’ markets, the comments sections of health articles, and the robust online forums featuring vigorous debates. Some great, groundbreaking work is being done, and I think it’s beginning to seep into the mainstream.

Will it be enough? Will we finally triumph over the ubiquitous looming specter of Conventional Wisdom? Will we wrest control of the hearts and minds of the gentle citizenry? Will we soon see a pasture-raised chicken in every pot, a pitcher of coconut milk in every larder, and a farmers’ market on every corner? Will Grok return to save the day?

Check back tomorrow… Same Grok place, same Grok channel.

Read Part 2 of this post: Is the Stone Beginning to Crack?

You want comments? We got comments:

Imagine you’re George Clooney. Take a moment to admire your grooming and wit. Okay, now imagine someone walks up to you and asks, “What’s your name?” You say, “I’m George Clooney.” Or maybe you say, “I’m the Clooninator!” You don’t say “I’m George of George Clooney Sells Movies Blog” and you certainly don’t say, “I’m Clooney Weight Loss Plan”. So while spam is technically meat, it ain’t anywhere near Primal. Please nickname yourself something your friends would call you.

  1. I have recently gotten myself on the Weston A Price lifestyle and found your blog which I read to keep myself motivated–although I am not strictly primal. I really appreciated this article at this time. I am an acupuncturist and I was treating a patient and I just KNEW he needed to know more about diet but I was thinking he wouldn’t listen to me if I mentioned anything. I didn’t say anything and was feeling frustrated with myself (after all didn’t I CARE that this man might not be healthy?).

    I think it’s important to share but at the same time realize when other people won’t be willing to hear what you are saying. I’m sure I’ll be more helpful if I wait until people ask what I think rather than just telling them.

    Bonnie wrote on September 9th, 2009
  2. I actually tried a Low-fat diet for a few months, but it just made me feel fatigued. I didn’t lose any weight at all.

    That’s when I learned about the low-carb and paleo diet, and the rest, as they say, is history.

    Kiran wrote on September 9th, 2009
  3. Great post! I love the term “average pasta vegetarian”–covers a lot of folks, I’m afraid. Her recommendations reminded me of one of my favorite quotes:

    “The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it.”
    ~Michaelangelo

    Catalina wrote on September 9th, 2009
  4. So what she’s saying is that I’ve been eating healthy all my life? Who knew!

    jose wrote on September 9th, 2009
    • rotflmao!

      Yeah, I’ve been on the Sour Patch candy diet, too…

      Gwennie wrote on September 10th, 2009
  5. I havent even finished reading todays post Mark, but after seeing that video- I don’t even know what to say. It makes me want to throw up or something. Although, I can’t say I’m super surprised. I took a nutrition class at my university this past summer and they spouted the same garbage, day in, and day out.

    Dream wrote on September 9th, 2009
  6. So that is the sort of rubbish they are teaching nutritionists nowadays! They should be instantly discredited and barred from teaching ever again! How are we ever going to get healthy with this misinformation going around?

    alanrlow wrote on September 9th, 2009
  7. Such posts make me rather cry.

    Because I know these discussions. I stopped saying anything, I just ignore CW spreading people.

    I went primal a few weeks ago and watching/reading about health/nutrition make me want to go postal instead.

    hynek wrote on September 9th, 2009
  8. I am extremely affected after reading this and seeing that video. The content of the video seems so familiar because I constantly hear people around saying the same things ever since I started going primal. It makes me want to throw up.

    What a sad place to live it.

    Moon wrote on September 10th, 2009
  9. Doesn’t the dietician in the video AT LEAST know that corn is NOT a vegetable? Banging my head on my desk. Glaring example of CW getting it WRONG.

    musajen wrote on September 10th, 2009
  10. Hey guys

    This is probably a newbie question, but where I live (South Africa) the cows are grass fed and then grain finished for about 90 days.

    Is this really unhealthy? I don’t really have the opportunity to buy full grass fed beef.

    The eggs are also another issue. At my local supermarket they have eggs that are omega 3 enriched, but they say it is fed a strict diet of grains and pulses… Are these the sort of eggs I should be eating?

    Thanks
    Cloud

    cloud wrote on September 10th, 2009
    • Actually, that is how most cattle are fed: 1-2 years of grass and then a “finishing” diet of grain.

      Personally, I think it’s more important to eat meat as the bulk of your diet than it is to get hung up on the omega-6/omega-3 stuff. Beef has a VERY low PUFA content anyway; it’s about 3-4%. I’d be more concerned about pork (10% PUFA) and chicken (15%). Lamb has a similar fatty acid profile to beef. And if you’re still worried, eating more oily fish (salmon, sardine, herring, etc.) and/or taking an omega-3 supplement will counteract the (small) extra omega-6 from grain-fed beef.

      Hope that helps!

      Icarus wrote on September 10th, 2009
    • I laugh every time I see the “vegetarian-fed” label on a carton of eggs. Clearly, these people did not grow up watching the same Looney Tunes cartoons I did. Like the one with Foghorn Leghorn fighting with a cat over who got to eat the caterpillar.

      Had chickens in the backyard when I was in high school. They loved bugs. But if corn is a veggie, I guess bugs are plants.

      Dana wrote on September 15th, 2009
      • I’m glad I’m not the only one who laughs when I see that. “Vegetarian fed” usually means GMO corn and soy. I was talking to a butcher at my local chain market, asking for grass fed and he told me, proudly, “But these cows are vegetarian fed too!” *facepalm*

        paleo_piper wrote on September 15th, 2009
  11. Troy wrote on September 10th, 2009
  12. Unfortunately, these were my thoughts as well Mark.

    Sometimes, I feel like I’m running around with people touting that the world is flat and when I mention that it MIGHT be round, the plug their ears, scrunch their nose and start babbling about how I am full of ridiculous garbage!

    REALLY NOW? You heard it from CNN, Matt Lauer or ‘Self’ magazine and I researched the HECK out of my nutrition options and I am the one who’s off my rocker? Makes me wanna scream!

    The other night, an acquaintance of mine heard me say that I am now no longer having issues with constipation since going to mostly carnivore. She stops, looks at me with squinted eyes and says “Well, sorry, but I just find that hard to believe”.

    Was she serious?? Like I was frickin’ lying? They will even balk at results!!! My husband keeps getting told that he’s “Too skinny”.

    Actually, that run-on chin of his is now chiseled and the muscles are rippling more than ever, but noooooo, he’s “Too skinny”!

    I better stop before steam arises from my nostrils!

    SassaFrass88 wrote on September 10th, 2009
  13. My only disagreement is this: The writers and nutritionists are not entirely to blame. I got an article from a service I subscribe to for my website, almost exactly like the lists you describe: ten best convenience foods. I actually wrote a rebuttal on my site, and the nutritionist wrote me and said, sadly, this is what the women’s magazines want. Easy, bulleted lists that don’t require their readers to do anything really difficult. It’s not because the magazines actually support that viewpoint, though it does help sell ads. It’s because easy, bulleted lists sell magazines. Period. “No one” wants to do the hard thing.

    Lynn Siprelle wrote on September 10th, 2009
    • And did the nutritionist say WHY she had sold out and given the magazine the misinformation they wanted?

      crunchysue wrote on September 10th, 2009
  14. Unfortunately my sister refuses to even listen to most of the Primal stuff I try to tell her. She mentiones I should “use my own brain” in regards to this stuff as she just “can’t imagine life without bread” and “why would I want to do something so difficult.”
    People don’t LIKE Primal because they are afraid of calories, don’t want to exercise, and don’t want to give up their carbs. Everyone thinks if they give up eating bread and pasta, somehow their lives will be empty. Then again, those are usually people who won’t quit smoking for the same reason. I’m seeing a pattern of dependency here…
    Get me out of this insane place!

    Charise wrote on September 10th, 2009
    • Could you imagine the outcry if anyone ever asked a Jewish person why in the world they would want to do something so difficult as to keep kosher? Maybe someone should create a new religion that mandates low-carb.

      Dana wrote on September 15th, 2009
    • most people seem to be like that sadly. so it can be fairly lonely at times to eat healthy.

      Living amongst non primal eaters I think is the biggest challenge of all. following the diet is the easy part.

      Just yesterday at work they had what they call a “fairwell morning tea” (with no tea!) for someone who was leaving. They bought a whole heap of crap for everyone to eat. Cakes dohnuts, chips, you name it. It happened to conincide with my normal morning break when I usually eat an assortment of nuts and berries (and actually I DID have tea but it was herbal tea). Anyway I wasn’t eating any of the crap. I was in horror at what these people were putting in them – the large majority of them overweight. but I didn’t say anything as I know unsolicited advise is generally unwelcome (got that from this book called Social Intelligence)and would not go well. Anyway, turns out I don’t even have to say anything! People complaining to me anyway including my boss! “what’s wrong with you?” he says. lol. I didn’t really think to hard about it and just replied with “nothing, you’re the one eating that crap” – implying the problem is with him. He then made some comment about me being a chook eating nuts. I never heard of chickens eating nuts but whatever. maybe they do maybe they don’t. would be some pretty expensive chickens as the nuts cost more than chicken meat. anyway.. People also often tell me I’m eating rabbit food when I have a chicken or tuna salad for lunch. this is the crap i have to put up with just because I want to be healthy. i think that most of these comments come from jealousy as I seem to be the healhiest and fittest in our department. whatever the reason though it’s not acceptable.

      Also, based on the arrangement of the office I didnt have to even leave my desk so i was just carrying on with my work at my own desk trying to “stay low” until this BS was over. But several other people also made comments (which were unsolicited!). I think next time I will go outside for a walk in the park just after the speeches but before the crap eating commences so no one sees me not eating it.

      But I guess eventually all the people who follow CW will end up sick and die soon after and it will just be us primal followers left.

      the thing that suckS about that is then we are old and a good deal of the people who get sick and die are people we don’t want to get sick and die like our friends and family but they won’t listen and even if they do most will not follow through because it’s so dam hard to unless you make all your own food thanks to all those morons that believe in CW and only sell unhealthy food at restaurants and cafes etc.

      the sooner we can get this diet into the mainstream the sooner they will start offering primal friendly meals at restaurants. Once this happens it will be much easier to adapt.

      come on everyone! get the word out!!!!

      it would be so easy for restaurants to cook up some delicious primal meals and we can all enjoy them but I’m yet to see one. Everything is poisoned with crap. They take something good and then ruin it for no reason 99% of the time.

      I’ve got a “christmas lunch” coming up soon for work and I’m not looking forward to it! they are going to make a “special” meal for me as it’s a set menu and I don’t want the bs that’s on there. I should’t have to do this!!!!

      It’s so ironic that by trying to eat normal human food it’s ME that looks like the freak! eat crap and your normal. this is BS!!!!! put some sense into this world! aahhhhhhhhhhhhh!! lol.

      Michael wrote on November 20th, 2010
  15. I just swallowed 4 razor blades reading this. A registered dietitian? Wow.

    Daniel Merk wrote on September 10th, 2009
  16. A friend told me at lunch today that he was eating sausage, eggs & french toast for breakfast, and his dietitian told him to substitute bacon for the sausage.

    Hello? What about the FRENCH TOAST. Oh, she says that’s OK because I put low fat syrup on it. She knows what she’s talking about because she’s a DOCTOR.

    Is there some sort of idiocy requirement to get into med school?

    crunchysue wrote on September 10th, 2009
  17. The real irony comes from my anarchist-atheist friends. “Don’t trust any government advice! Don’t trust any institution, they’re all BS!” Biggest ralliers against anything conventional and crowd of Do-It-Yourself’ers.

    Yet, in that community, biggest bunch of vegans and low-fat eaters “because it’s the healthiest way” I ever saw. Loading up heavy on the grains, beans and fruits. Sad to say, I too followed this plan for years. And that’s how I gained 65lbs. Even though coconut was “vegan” it was shunned for being too high in fat.

    A few of my more primitive-leaning anarchists are open to primal eating but most are not. It’s a very curious phenomena to be sure. I still haven’t figured it out and my telling them how my health has improved since going primal falls on deaf ears.

    paleo_piper wrote on September 10th, 2009
    • Look for the rewilders. They’re more open to paleo than any anarchist group I’ve seen.

      Dana wrote on September 15th, 2009
      • My local group isn’t into diet/nutrition/exercise so much as they are into lifestyle. It’s a lot of the same stuff Mark gets into about being barefoot, sleeping, naps and so on, but gets far more into wild skills like fishing, gathering, home building. None of which I had a problem with, and actually rather enjoy. But no one really touches on nutrition other than “Eat Paleo, but it’s hard.”

        paleo_piper wrote on September 15th, 2009
  18. I would take it one step further and argue CW is responsible for the out of control health care costs in America. I don’t care who runs the system, when every man, woman and child is on pills and constantly at the Dr’s because of poor diet, we ALL pay for it. I hope you’re right! I hope the internet allows truth to be heard and the “low fat, high whole grain” pundits will fall. But I don’t know….

    Fixed gear wrote on September 10th, 2009
  19. MOST people are blinded by CW. I’d love to write them all off as “idiots” but these idiots are my friends, my sister, my MOM, people I love. They are totally brainwashed. It’s sad. I did get my Dad to buy and read your book and go primal. So there’s hope!

    Fixed gear wrote on September 10th, 2009
  20. You’re so sarcastic that I thought you were serious.

    Amanda wrote on February 8th, 2010
  21. “In any case, a “Best Packaged Foods” lists is sort of like putting together a list of the “Best Terminal Illnesses.” Sure, some may not be as bad as others, but in the end you’d be better off not having any of them.” – Mark Sisson

    I love it!

    Todd wrote on March 14th, 2010
  22. To think that most people would still believe this to be great advice.

    Jeff wrote on November 13th, 2010
  23. Always the best content from these prgoidious writers.

    Earthwind wrote on September 11th, 2011
  24. I’m really enjoying the theme/design of your website. Do you ever run into any internet browser compatibility problems? A small number of my blog readers have complained about my site not operating correctly in Explorer but looks great in Firefox. Do you have any ideas to help fix this problem?

    Christina Jabs wrote on September 20th, 2011
  25. Dietitians are stupid. <–PERIOD

    Peter wrote on October 6th, 2011
  26. I have never posted here before, but have been a long time reader. I had to post after seeing the video of the registered dietician giving out “health” advice to the masses of trusting people. I just have to say thank you for letting me see this. I don’t have television, and I really don’t care to keep up with what’s going on in today’s insane and surreal world – so apparently I’m not used to just how insane it has gotten since I stopped watching. I must say that at half past midnight I actually woke my husband out of a dead sleep to show him this video – he was as outraged as I am by it. I cannot BELIEVE what these corporate giants are getting away with and doing to people, and no one is stopping them. How dare a trusted nutritional professional advise people to do something that will so obviously lead to their early demise? Well, because the same corporations that own media and broadcasting companies are the same corporations that own the huge commercial food industry companies – and the very same ones also own all the pharma companies that sell everyone medice and chemo when their sick from the food they ALSO sold them, after being told by THEM on their TV programs to eat THEIR food and take their meds. How can people not SEE what is being done to them here????!! I am sorry for ranting and raving, but I really cannot believe that the masterminds at work here in the world have now become so entirely powerful so as to be able to do something THIS bold and audacious. I mean, really? Really?? I am in shock about this video clip. Wow. Anyway Mark, thanks for the link to the video, exposing me to this. Even though it makes me so mad, I’m glad I now that it’s really gotten to this level now. By the way, check out these links to see a great illustration of corporate power – ruling the entire world now it seems.

    http://www.peacecouncil.net/pnl/03/718/718CorporateTakeover.htm

    For example, who knew that the suppliers of “food” such as Kraft, Post cereals, Oscar Meyer, Miller beer, and many many more are all owned by Philip Morris Tobacco? Guess which major television station has board members who also “happen” to be board members over at Philip Morris. Did you guess it? Yep – NBC. The source for that lovely advice we saw on your video. By the way, many of the fast food labels ADVERTISED by NBC in this piece belong to one David C. Novak, who also happens to be the Director of JP Morgan Chase, also having a chair at the Board of Directors of NBC.

    Okay I’ll stop there. Even though I could rant and rave for another 500 pages! >( grrr

    :D But thanks for everything Mark and keep up the great work. By the way, anyone in California or elsewhere actually, please check out Nick Ranch Grassfed Beef – I have no affiliation with them other than being a loyal customer, they are doing amazing things over there, even their slaughter of beef is so gentle and humane. Family ranch for generations. I always like to plug them because I want them to stay around forever for me! So selfish. ;D

    Angela Perry wrote on November 13th, 2011
  27. Implementing once work outs with regards to regular underside is usually extremely good plus boasts large cure contained in the on the spot together with coming.

    Dorinda Privette wrote on March 5th, 2012

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