How Much Is Too Much?
Although the Primal Blueprint leaves ample room for individual determination, I do try to offer folks a clear picture of the impact different dietary and lifestyle choices have on their overall health picture. At times I even offer specific recommendations or ranges that readers can tailor to their particular needs and situations. I’m often asked, however, about the upper ceilings I would set for various elements of the PB (fat, fish oil, etc.) I thought I’d take on those questions today and cover good ground by applying a rapid fire approach for several of the most common “excess” inquiries. Enjoy, and be sure to share your thoughts!
Protein
My general recommendation is one gram per pound of lean body mass on an average day. If you IF, it might weigh in at half that or less on your fasting days, whereas special occasions like Thanksgiving or your uncle’s annual steak fry might tip the intake scale at 1.5 grams per pound or so of lean mass. For the average active person, these amounts will be well utilized and fully sufficient. Any more than that, however, and you run the risk of excess protein being converted to glucose, which of course defeats the purpose of a low/lower carb diet. If you’re adequately hydrated (which doesn’t take much), eating an overall alkaline diet and ensuring adequate intake of bone supportive nutrients like magnesium, calcium and vitamins D and K, the common (but generally outdated) concerns about kidney load and osteoporosis aren’t significant issues.
Fat
Eating Primally will almost always mean that more than half of your calories will come from fat, and there’s no reason to be concerned about that – in fact it’s a reason to rejoice. Our hunter-gatherer ancestors ate at least that and, in some cases, considerably more. There isn’t really an upper limit for fat intake. For the vast majority of us, a useful way to approach the fat question is to first dial in your protein intake and then look at what carb intake you’re shooting for. (Check out the Primal Blueprint Carb Curve for a good summary of ranges.) You could potentially go zero carb – although the prospect is extremely impractical (and boring) for most people and must be well thought out and rather meticulously executed. After accounting for adequate protein and desired Primal carbs, you can fill out the rest of your caloric needs with fat, prioritizing the cleanest saturated fats you have financial and logistical access to, then monounsaturated fats and then healthy, intact polyunsaturated fats like certain nuts and fish oils.
Conveniently, that brings me to our next category in question….
Fish Oil
I generally recommend 1-3 grams of fish oil each day to counter inflammation and balance out dietary omega-6 content toward a healthier ratio approaching 1:1. The more Primal and clean you’re eating, the less you need. As for upper limits, it depends. More than three grams a day on an otherwise healthy diet (and/or in conjunction with certain medications/high alcohol intake) can thin your blood too much and impair its necessary clotting ability. Keep in mind not everyone is affected equally by a higher dose. Some people do fine with higher amounts. Other people notice excess thinning at well below three grams. For people with certain medical conditions, dosages above three grams have served as effective therapeutic treatment options. Of course, just because a certain dosage has been used in scientific studies doesn’t mean it’s necessary or advisable to take that much if you have a given condition. Talk to your doctor, and keep in mind that quality fish oil isn’t the cheapest thing in the world. One-three grams is nothing to sneeze at. It’s potent stuff. There’s no use taking more than you’ll fully benefit from. Better to take an adequate dose and spend the extra money on better quality food than to down megadoses of fish oil you don’t need.
Chocolate
I don’t want to rain too much on anyone’s parade here, chocolate lovers being a uniquely passionate lot. Nonetheless, I’ll be straight with you. First, there’s the obvious: carb content. (Check the sugar and total carb content on your respective package and decide how it will figure into your Primal plan.) Those of us who have a penchant for the highest cocoa contents (or even the raw nibs) have a longer leash so to speak. Less sugar equals fewer carbs equals more chance to enjoy more chocolate. Yes? Well, yes, but there’s a little more to the story. One small study found that cocoa powder elicited more insulin release than other flavorings – irrespective of the macronutrient breakdown of the food. Researchers didn’t know what to make of the results, but postulated that the Pavlovian principle may be at work here. (I’m seriously not making this up.) The more we love our chocolate, the more our bodies evidently betray us. Although it’s hardly enough to get me to forgo a good piece of chocolate, it does underscore the need for personally instituted moderation.
Bacon
There’s no such thing as too much bacon.
Butter
Ditto.
Fruit
The above principle applies here as well. Fruit can play a healthy role in the PB, but too much can backfire. This is one area to watch – especially if you’re trying to lose weight. Tailor your fruit intake to your desired Primal carb intake. As luck would have it, higher ORAC level fruits also tend to be lower on the glycemic scale. Berries and cherries generally offer the most antioxidant bang with the least carb buck. Check out this carb chart (PDF) for useful carbohydrate estimates on all your favorites.
Alcohol
I say none is best. However, research generally supports the health benefits of 1-2 drinks a day (1 for the average woman and 2 for the average man). More than that, and the benefits begin to plummet pretty quickly. Certain alcohols can be reasonable Primal indulgences, and some like red wine can offer unique and potentially therapeutic health benefits. That said, moderation is key. That extra indulgent Saturday night at your cousin’s wedding won’t do much harm beyond that splitting headache the next day, but making a habit of it won’t do you any favors. (Think impaired brain and liver functioning.)
Sleep
The Definitive Guide last week got people talking about the suggested ceiling for sleep. A number of studies connect several downsides, including higher obesity and diabetes risk, to longer sleep duration (9-10 hours or more). The consensus seems to support the average of 7-8 hours a night as optimal. However, people have legitimate differences in sleep need. The vast majority of folks probably fall into the average need range, but there are always outliers. If you keep a healthy lifestyle and a genuinely good sleep schedule, but have to drag yourself through the day with less than nine hours of shut eye, you’re likely in this group. I think the key here is quality over quantity. Remember that college roommate who slept through his classes until noon or later? He was likely up well past midnight (doing who knows what). When you miss out on those early hours of deep sleep, it’s tempting for the body to stay in bed and try to make up for the deficiency. If you’re healthy and consistently in tune with your circadian rhythm, you’re likely in tune with what your body really needs.
Thanks for reading, and let me know what you think. What are your upper limits for the above – and other – Primal matters? What logic and experiences tell you how much is too much?
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Posted By: Mark Sisson
I always thought even paleo eaters should avoid bacon due to how much its processed? And butter was non-paleo?
Paleo != Primal
Butter is an excellent Neolithic source of animal fat.
i disagree on butter and bacon. while i do use butter, it’s not exactly a primal food, and i tend to keep it to a very small amount for cooking, and a small-moderate amount to use after cooking.
as for bacon, i even if you get a nitrate free organic brand, it’s still loaded with sodium.
“while i do use butter, it’s not exactly a primal food”
If Mark Sisson isn’t an expert on which foods he includes in his diet/program qualify as “Primal”, then nobody is:
“Cordain…still adheres to the failed Conventional Wisdom that saturated fats raise cholesterol and may cause heart disease, so he eschews butter and coconut oil (two of my favorites whose health benefits are supported by extensive research)…”
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-book/references/questions-and-answers/
So I guess there is a strong distinction between bacon and fatback of pork or pork loin? Is it only considered bacon if it is cured someway?
Rapunzil organic Extra Dark Chocolate (70%) bars have 15 gr of carbs in 1/2 bar. One bar is 3 oz. Half a bar is quite a bit. 1/4 bar is plenty for a chocolate fix. Available at Whole Foods in Portland, Maine.
What about kielbasa? I eat that every morning with my eggs and some berries. It’s delicious and has lots of fat.
Since taking fish oil my shoulder has been so much better! But I have found I need a far bit more dude to the joint issues I have.
Hi! I’m a new Grokette! Seeing weightloss results in the 3 weeks I’ve gone Primal
Needed this article last week! Ha! Thanks so much for posting. Exactly what I had been wondering.
Renee
Mark’s assertion that excess protein consumption is automatically converted to glucose and thus negates the goals of eating a low-carb diet is wrong.
(Check Stryer’s Biochemistry for more details than most will want.)
The carbon skeletons of deaminated amino acids may be converted to glucose (ONLY by demand of the liver, NOT based on the supply) or oxidized in the citric acid cycle.
Different amino acid carbon skeletons have different fates (precursors) in the CAC – leucine is purely ketogenic, a bunch others are purely glucogenic (with respect to the CAC), and the remainder are both.
An excess of protein is one where the urea cycle is overwhelmed, meaning all NH4 cannot be excreted (resulting in protein poisoning).
Less that this (which is a very high amount of protein for people with healthy kidneys) just means it’s burned or stored as fat.
Re chocolate and insulin, a study quoted on the Life Extension site has a different conclusion than stated above:
“” Dark chocolate improves insulin sensitivity, blood pressure
In a trial reported in the September, 2008 issue of the Journal of Nutrition, men and women with hypertension and impaired glucose tolerance experienced an improvement in both conditions after two weeks of consuming dark chocolate.
Researchers at the University of L’Aquila in Italy randomized 11 men and 8 women to receive a daily regimen of 100 grams flavanol-rich dark chocolate or flavanol-free white chocolate for 15 days. This was followed by a one week period during which no treatment was received, and another 15 day period during which the treatments were switched between groups. Blood pressure, endothelial function, glucose tolerance, serum cholesterol, and C-reactive protein were assessed at the beginning of the study and at the end of each treatment period.
Participants demonstrated significant insulin resistance and diminished insulin sensitivity upon enrollment, as determined by oral glucose tolerance and insulin testing. These conditions improved compared following the intake of flavanol-rich dark chocolate but were not improved by flavanol-free white chocolate. Systolic and diastolic blood pressure decreased following consumption of dark chocolate, and endothelial function, as evaluated by brachial artery flow-mediated dilation, improved. Additionally, dark chocolate was associated with reductions in total and low density lipoprotein cholesterol.
Flavanols and related polyphenols may improve insulin resistance by increasing nitric oxide bioavailability in the endothelium and reducing reactive oxygen and nitrogen species. Because insulin resistance and impaired glucose tolerance are risk factors for diabetes and cardiovascular disease, and hypertension is also a cardiovascular disease risk factor, dark chocolate, along with other dietary components, could help contribute to the prevention of these common diseases. The authors conclude that their findings “suggest a potential value to developing flavanol-rich, low-energy cocoa foods, beverages, and supplements.” “
Interesting Sam, I’m not as chem savy, but simply put, if you eat high fat it would be damn hard to get protein poisoning, the question is do you need it if youre the average joe? And if you can maintain a healthy state of lipolysis (with a LC and a HF diet)the question is why would your body even want to convert protein to glucose if fat is the perfered fuel of choice? I’m trying to get this! In your opinion (or anyone elses) Does this sound like I’m on the right track?
Depending on your definition of HF I think it’s virtually impossible to get protein poisoning – I’ll arbitrarily define HF as 50-90% by energy. (Always presuming normal kidney function of course.)
You only *need* enough protein to support repair and growth. Since you can’t really know how much that is, various guidelines have sprung up – including the one Mark discussed above. I was just addressing his claim that eating more than this was somehow bad – ie, negating low-carb – which simply isn’t correct per the biochemistry.
The reason gluconeogenesis occurs is some tissues cannot use ketone bodies or fatty acids for energy – they must use glucose. Exactly how much glucose is needed is poorly known, probably because it varies tremendously based on keto-adaptation and load!
I want to clarify my last paragraph.
GNG only occurs if you have insufficient glycogen in your liver – in other words, the liver gets the order from the pancreas to release glucose, can’t release enough to satisfy the demand, and starts busily making it from available amino acids.
(Note that this doesn’t happen in some binary off/on mechanism – just about every biochemical process is smoothly varying.)
The reason more than 9 hours of sleep is associated with more health problems is that people that sleep that long are probably not really getting quality sleep. So if you need more than 9 to avoid dragging through the day or even with 9+ you are still dragging through the day it is possible you have a sleep disorder, especially one like sleep apnea, which is known to increase rates of obesity, hormonal imbalances, cardiovascular problems etc.
Thanks Sam. I’m starting to get it, . It seems like any gluconeogenesis would be so minute at that point I don’t see what the damage could be unless you were trying to stay in ketosis. So high fat would be more of the focus not high protein. Ah, question after question; such as life.
Great article…too much of a good thing is not a good thing.
Is it ok to replace bacon with some other meat like fish or chicken? because i dont get to eat bacon that often..
What is a good high fat snack? I’ve tried coconut milk but I hate the taste.
I’ve only been on PB for about a month but my favourite is berries with double cream. Another one is pork crackling. Also chicken drumsticks, nuts, and sardines in olive oil.
I’ll give another shout-out for the chocolate bacon bar. I found it at World Market. Then, the other day, I went back, and next to the chocolate bar was… the dark chocolate bacon bar! I will have to treat myself soon.
So does this work for kids and toddlers? What can I give them to make sure they are getting all they need? Mine won’t eat salad. You should do a post on kids!
I wish there wasn’t so much confusion and disagreement even in the paleo world. (Do we need loads of greens for minerals and fiber or we’re fine with 50 grams of veg carbs? differences between Don Matesz and dr. Harris for example) We end up doubting everybody or having to check everything ourselves. Talking about protein requirements, I read that it’s about 1 g per kg of lean body mass not per pound. That means for me 55 g multiplied by about 4 (25-8 grams in 100 grams of meat) gives 220 grams of meat or less if eggs and cheese are also eaten.
Talking about nitrites, it’s still not clear if they are a health hazard or not. Generally nowadays processed meat has sodium ascorbate added to the sodium nitrite to inhibit the formation of nitrosamines in the gut. Is it really safe to cook it? Can my kids have ham for their lunch at school? Who knows. Plants have nitrates, not nitrites, nitrites might form in your mouth when you eat them. the Junkscience post focuses on the minute amount of nitrites in meat products and the comparison with the plants but still mentions in passing the possibility of the formation of nitrosamines which is really the issue.
Can somebody clarify?
I haven’t seen nitrate-free bacon here in Australia.
You might be interested in this article on nitrates in food:
http://sl.farmonline.com.au/news/nationalrural/agribusiness-and-general/general/nitrates-from-food-additives-fertilisers-linked-to-alzheimers/1619823.aspx
Hi Helen, you can get it in Brisbane from Allsop & England, 297 Old Cleveland Rd, Coorparoo 4151. Ph (07)3397 4117. It is sodium nitrite free bacon from free range pork. It is genuinely wood smoked instead.
Angelina.
thanks, Angelina. I’ll check them out.
It seems we often need to look for alternative suppliers. Where I live we sometimes have farmers’ markets, and there’s a local supplier of organic goat.
Regarding Simona’s comment about confusion – I’m newish to Paleo food but I find that same issue across the board, with biased research and new and old data. I like Michael Pollan’s view: “eat (real) food, not too much, mostly plants” and try to get some variety, so that any one toxin isn’t going to be present in excess.
Yes, I cannot stress the importance of variety enough. I have found with many people that I know that if they continue to eat the same foods ‘day in day out’ that they start to develop reactions to them and have to stop eating them altogether for a while. Especially if they are the type that are prone to allergies. Plus there is the issue of getting as many of the nutrients that are available to us as possible. So a wide variety of vegetables and fruits are important. Unlike my father who just tries to eat apples as his only source of fruit all the time :O
Zero Carb is extremely easy and definitely not boring. I cannot imagine that fruit and vegetables are more exciting that pork chops, KerryGold butter and six eggs.
Great article Mark. Avocado mashed is great alternative to butter although I still do enjoy butter now and then.
The only problem I have with bacon is it makes me thirsty…..for more bacon! Thanks Jim Gaffigan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaK9bjLy3v4
Wine wondering…
I was wondering if the way the wine is made makes any difference in how good it is for you or how much is okay to have. I make my own wine from several varieties of organic crushed red grapes. I take the juice (unpasteurized of course) put it in clean glass gallon jugs and ferment it with nothing but ITS OWN wild yeasts. Each batch is a little different from the next but they are all nice to drink and quite alcoholic (8 to 10 percent). The thing is…
I can drink 2 to 4 glasses of my wine and get the same good feeling effects as I would with regular bottled wine, BUT… I feel great while I am doing it ‘and’ the next day there are no ill effects whatsoever. In fact I feel very good (more energetic as well as more rested) and this never happens with any bottled wine I have ever had. In fact regular bottled wine can make me feel pretty crappy the next day if I have too much, but the homemade seriously never does, so…
Is it healthier to drink homemade wine that is made without any additives whatsoever, just organic grapes? And since there are no ill effects the next day can it be good for you? Could you even drink more of it and still be healthy?
I know the research is on the alcohol content but that may not be the only factor. Perhaps the wild yeasts create a healthier alcoholic beverage. In any case I have had as much as 32 ounces of my natural home brew with an alcohol content of 10% and still had no ill effects at all.
Hope you can comment on this sometime Mark, though I do know you a busy guy. Hope this all helps somebody out there!
There’s no such thing as too much bacon or butter…because when you’ve eaten enough of it, you are no longer hungry.
Bacon is a fatty cut of meat, so it satiates much quicker than lean meat. And butter? Once you’ve attenuated your taste buds to it, you quickly realize just how inferior margarine and vegetable oils are in comparison to grade A butter.
It’s no accident your bodies taste buds and satiation signalling are cued to FAT.
That’s because the FAT is were most of the nutrients are stored.
Google “rabbit starvation.”
Protein poisoning only occurs when you eat lean protein and not enough fat.
As for sodium and nitrites/nitrates?
Folks, the reason why sodium is so vilified, is because processed foods are high in sodium. People who eat too much processed foods (high in Omega 6 rich vegetable oils, carbs, HFCS etc.) experience high blood pressure…and conventional wisdom blames the sodium.
It’s bullshit.
Eat as much bacon as you like. Because of it’s high fat content, your body will tell precisely when it’s had enough.
I do well most of the time eating Primally, with little or no consulting the book or Mark’s articles, etc. I would guess that I’m 95% “on” most of the time, occasionally falling to maybe 85%.
Biggest downfall? Red wine. If I open a bottle intending to drink 1 or 2 glasses, I’ll inevitably have 4 (or 5).
I don’t eat a lot of fruit, but I do like apple and banana slices spread with almond butter. Without looking it up, I’m guessing that bananas are not particularly great, Primal-wise.
Bacon? Yeah … lots of it! Glad to know I’m OK there. Same with butter: You should see how I slather it on sweet potatoes. Speaking of which, now that I’m working at home (unemployed!), I have a sweet potato every day for lunch. Can you overdo sweet potatoes?
I really appreciated this article and its back to the basics approach. Thanks Mark!
I think Grock’s last name was Atkins.
I don’t want to rain on the parade, but the fact is that bacon (actually pork in general) is rather high in unstable polyunsaturated fatty acids. There is valid science on the subject that suggests it may be better to minimize ALL polyunsaturates, including fish oil. Cancer & premature aging are reported to increase in populations consuming a high fish diet. There is also evidence that the so-called essential fatty acids are not essential in the diet at all and that the human body normally posseses endogenous enzymes to produce these in correct amounts when sufficient dietary saturated fat is available and these enzymes are not supressed by dietary polyunsaturates. Despite the current medical establishment love affair with fish oil, the highly unstable nature of both omega-6 and omega-3 polyunsaturates appears to make them pathogenic when consumed in the diet in other than minimal amounts. So I’m not down with The Great Fish Oil Experiment.
how can there be no such thing as too much bacon???