Marks Daily Apple
Serving up health and fitness insights (daily, of course) with a side of irreverence.
4 Nov

Dear Mark: Grok’s Mobility, Too Much Walking, Fertile Eggs, and the Best Shoes for Babies

Walking, Walking, WalkingHey folks, it’s time for another edition of Dear Mark. This time around we’ve got a four-parter. First up, I discuss why Grok probably didn’t need to foam roll with boulders or consult with a proto-Kstarr sporting a prominent brow ridge. Next, walking. It’s good, it’s vital, it’s low-stress, but is it possible to walk too much? Yes (but read on). After that, I delve into the extensive fertile egg literature. Er, maybe “extensive” isn’t quite accurate. Let’s go with “nearly non-existent.” And finally, I give the Primal pick for the best shoes for kids.

Let’s go:

Hi Mark,

Did Grok have to work on Mobility and listen to KStarr?

I’m 45 year old male who loves to lift heavy stuff (crossfit, strongman, oly lifting etc). I have not perfected my Grok lifestyle by any means but I was laying on the mats in my garage gym the other day, working mobility to prep for a workout, and thought to myself, did Grok have to do this? I mean I would be lost without working on mobility….

Was Grok always sore? Did he have to roll on lacrosse ball sized rocks to get ready for the days activity?

Thoughts/feedback as I wonder if it ever gets better?



Ha! Great question. Hilarious imagery.

I picked the brain of my buddy Angelo dela Cruz, of PrimalCon and VitaMoves fame, for his perspective and advice. In addition to being a great massage therapist, body worker, movement coach, and personal trainer, Angelo is one of those dudes who’s just “always on.” At the drop of a hat and without any real warmup, he’ll do a backflip, deadlift twice his bodyweight, or scale a building – because he’s always peppering his day with movement to stay limber. Anyway, here’s what he had to say:

We’ve created the need for mobility work, just as we have created the need for learning how to run barefoot or sit, stand, or walk with good posture. For most of us, our modern lifestyles don’t engage our muscles, connective tissue, & joints to a diverse set of movements that encourage a great level of mobility (or movement capability).

Chronic tightness and decreased ranges of motion could be regarded as deficits of the body. Whatever has happened to your body up to now has contributed to a “negative balance” in your mobility account. You can imagine mobility work as a type of investment. The more things you do that make your body feel tight on a consistent basis (activities, nutrition, emotional states), the more mobility work that your body may require to balance out or “get in the black”.

Will you always need to foam roll and do mobility work? You can think of that question to be similar to “Will I always need to brush and floss my teeth?”

As long as you’re alive and want good hygiene on the inside, movement will always play an important role in a human’s ability to enjoy life. However, if you don’t like foam rolling, I’d suggest finding more enjoyable ways to gain mobility and ways that you can get more bang for your buck. For me, that means breaking up the monotony of regular life with regular, easy, yet deliberate movement, or VitaMoves. I’ll start the day with a minute or two. Anytime I start feeling “stiff,” or realize I haven’t done anything in awhile or have been sitting for too long, I’ll get up and move. Most times, I devote a minute or two, so it doesn’t feel like work, but as a result I’m always ready to work out, lift, run, jump, or play without much warming up.

Like Angelo’s, Grok’s mobility account was in very good standing. A lifetime of good credit. Yours may not be, because you can’t (and haven’t been able to) spend your entire day moving around like a hunter-gatherer, rarely sitting (and never sitting in a chair with a keyboard in front of you), and your most comfortable position of repose being a full squat. You also exercise differently than Grok, who rarely engaged in repetitive motions for reps and sets. Ancient hunter-gatherers weren’t really setting aside 45 minutes out of the day to cram in 3×5 deadlifts or Tabata clean and jerks. Even if you use perfect technique, your tissues need more recovery after tons of reps simply because of the repetitive stress being applied to them.

All that said, informal systems of movement therapy have likely always been around. Early humans had the same brains as we do. They touched each other, they gave back rubs to loved ones, they figured out that having your thighs rubbed after a tough hunt helped recovery the next day and felt really good. Neanderthals were treating bone fractures and wounds and amputating limbs at least 130000 years ago, and it’s likely other early humans had at least rudimentary systems of medicine and “physical therapy.” They certainly used medicinal herbs. It’s not as if we just gave up and died en masse at the slightest hint of an injury or illness before modern medicine arose.

For the most part, though, I think formal mobility work is the product of and a reaction to a society that promotes and enables poor movement. It’s also kind of necessary if you’re going to work eight hours a day and then go to the gym. It can be annoying, but five minutes a day of movement work is way easier than dealing with a torn meniscus.

Is there such a thing as too much walking? After reading your article about not burning more than 4,000 calories per week through exercise, I’m starting to wonder. I bought a Fitbit in December and started walking A LOT. I’m averaging around 60 miles per week of walking. According to Fitbit, I’m burning about 26,000 calories per week. A sedentary person of my age/height/weight/sex burns 19,000 calories a week, giving me a differential of 7,000 per week. I’ve also noticed I’ve been losing muscle mass the last five months according to my Fitbit Aria scale. Thanks!


Yeah, there’s such a thing as too much of anything, I’d say. 60 miles a week is almost ten miles a day. Even if walking is “easy slow movement,” you’re still burning a lot of calories. 7000? Maybe, those devices aren’t super precise. It’s a good general barometer, though. Plus, if you’re walking upwards of 7, 8 miles each day, you’re sitting at a chronic daily calorie deficit. Calorie deficits work better in a fractal pattern, with a couple days of deficits followed by a day of maintenance or even surplus. That’s the basis for my recommendation of an occasional hypercaloric carb refeed; it helps restore lagging leptin levels and can increase metabolism.

The lost muscle mass is a definite red flag signaling that something needs changing.

Are you doing any strength training? Even on a caloric deficit, strength training is essential for maintaining lean mass. You’re not going to gain much of anything, but by lifting heavy things you’ll be sending the message to your body that you “need the guns” and they will be spared. If you’re not using them, they’ll get discarded because, well, you obviously don’t need all these stored amino acids that your liver would be happy to convert into glucose. Plenty of studies show that resistance training on a caloric deficit will retain lean mass, particularly with sufficient protein in the diet.

Cut the walking by nearly half and throw in a couple days of strength training. Bodyweight, barbells, machines, whatever. Just start stressing those muscles so they stop disappearing. You might eat more, and that’s normal because resistance training tends to increase appetite. You probably won’t lose weight as quickly, but only because you’ll be maintaining or increasing muscle. Body fat will drop, which is what you want.

Good luck.

Is there any advantage to buying fertile eggs? My health food store just started carrying them, and I wonder if I should indulge, or skip and stay with my pastured eggs?


Raw fertile eggs were one of the classic bodybuilding foods, along with raw milk and beef liver. Those last two have been vindicated by science – raw milk is obviously great for muscle growth, but it’s also rich with beneficial fat (if grass-fed, particularly), fat soluble vitamins, and helpful immunological components; liver is dense with practically every important nutrient, including vitamin A and cholesterol, which we need for testosterone production – but what about fertile eggs? Bodybuilding legend Vince Gironda said that eating 36 fertile eggs a day was comparable to using Dianabol (a steroid). There may be something to it.

Several online sources claim that fertile eggs contain a myostatin inhibitor called follistatin. Yeah, it’s a page on a supplement site hawking fertile egg extract, but the cited studies seem to confirm that fertile eggs (in sufficient amounts) can downregulate myostatin. Myostatin slows down muscle growth, so when you inhibit myostatin, you increase muscle growth. Animals with genetic myostatin deficiencies are ridiculously proportioned slabs of pure muscle, like the double-muscled cattle or the bulley whippet.

I’d stick with the pastured eggs, personally, unless your main focus is muscle gain. Might be a fun experiment to try. A dozen fertile eggs a day coupled with intense strength training? Anyone up for it? Anyone already try it?

Mark! MARK! I request, nay, demand a list of minimalist shoes for children! My five month-old will be learning to walk soon, and you can bet he’ll be in the softest shoes I can find.


Perfect timing for this one. We’ve got a couple workers around the office with either babies or incoming babies who are neck deep in this topic.

Vibram makes Fivefingers for toddlers and older kids (good luck getting a baby’s wriggling toes into a pair of those!).

Vivo Barefoot has a kids section, though I think it’s just for older kids and not babies.

And a UK retailer called Happy Little Soles sells only acceptably minimalist footwear for babies and kids. They’re all about “developing feet,” so you can use their product list to research other companies.

But the consensus choice around here is Bobux, a company out of New Zealand making soft, supple leather shoes for babies, toddlers, and other categories of youngster. In their “About” section, they explain how their goal was to “allow the feet to function properly and grow without restrictions.” That sounds extremely promising. The shoes are super flexible – you can practically roll it up and stick it in your shirt pocket if you’re so inclined – and they’re very light with a lot of ground feel.

Just in case anyone is on the fence with their kids and barefooting/minimalist shoe-wearing: a kid’s foot doesn’t stop maturing until around age 18. Particularly in the first several years, there’s a significant amount of cartilage rather than bone. Cartilage that’s “finding its way.” Cartilage that will take whatever shape (within reason; you couldn’t give your kid a three-toed chicken foot or anything) you impress on it. Cartilage that turns to bone. Plus, kids are establishing neural connections between their feet and brain using the sensory feedback they get from the ground, connections they’ll use as a foundation for their movement, balance, coordination, and athleticism for the rest of their lives. Putting them in thick, hard shoes removes that. Heck, even the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends a soft-soled, flexible shoe for the first year (though I’d say the first four to five years at least).

That’s it for today. Thanks for reading, everyone!

You want comments? We got comments:

Imagine you’re George Clooney. Take a moment to admire your grooming and wit. Okay, now imagine someone walks up to you and asks, “What’s your name?” You say, “I’m George Clooney.” Or maybe you say, “I’m the Clooninator!” You don’t say “I’m George of George Clooney Sells Movies Blog” and you certainly don’t say, “I’m Clooney Weight Loss Plan”. So while spam is technically meat, it ain’t anywhere near Primal. Please nickname yourself something your friends would call you.

  1. Jake: Don’t completely trust that Aria!

    Cody wrote on November 4th, 2013
  2. I always find it absurd to see people indoors at the gym riding stationary bikes and running on treadmills. We’ve come a long way baby. We definitely are Devo.

    Nocona wrote on November 4th, 2013
    • What about the stationary hand bike? lol

      Matt wrote on November 5th, 2013
  3. Jessica, also consider Medieval Moccasins, which come in Child sizes with “no sole” (bare leather) or a thin, flat rubber sole.

    PhilmontScott wrote on November 4th, 2013
  4. For minimalist shoes, check out Soft Star. They are a small company in Oregon. These are the most comfortable shoes you will ever wear. I have many pairs of Runamocs and wear them everyday for activities ranging from lounging to running. They come in adult and kids sizes and are customizable to any color imaginable.

    LT wrote on November 4th, 2013
  5. Honestly had no idea that you could walk too much! Good information to know for sure.

    Yessenia Montolvo wrote on November 4th, 2013
  6. My favorite shoes for kids are from Soft Star. They have production runs of ready-to-wear styles and can also do custom work/custom colors for usually a few dollars more per pair. They are a bit on the pricey side, but if you have more than one kiddo and get neutral colors, they’ll last through a few kid’s worth of childhood romps.

    I have a pair of their sandals with wafer-thin vibram soles that all three of my kids wore, and they still have life in them. My older daughter has a pair of moccasins with sheepskin lining for running around outside when it’s very cold, but mostly she walks around barefoot (like me) year-round. I have a pair of mocs too, love them and wear them whenever shoes are required (most of my local retailers take no shoes, no shirt, no service very, very seriously).

    Amy wrote on November 4th, 2013
  7. These are the BEST shoes for little kids (good for adults too)
    Handmade in Corvallis, Oregon, USA.

    The kids (or parents) can even design their own in bright, fun colors.

    Nancy wrote on November 4th, 2013
  8. Thanks for addressing the kids’ shoes–I’ve always wondered this. And we LOVE Bobux!)

    Anne wrote on November 4th, 2013
  9. Hold up….I am tread-desking and regularly walking 7-10 miles a day, albeit at a slow pace. I thought moving frequently at a slow pace was a GOOD thing? Now I am confused.

    tina wrote on November 4th, 2013
    • So now I am supposed to SIT more????

      tina wrote on November 4th, 2013
    • I think Mark has said, and the research pans out, that most native peoples walked an average of 9 miles a day. 60 miles a week. Most of it at probably a slow pace.

      Nocona wrote on November 4th, 2013
      • That’s what I thought…but he’s telling his questioner that is walking 60 miles a week they need to cut it down by nearly half…I do 60 miles most weeks, and got the idea from Primal Fitness!

        tina wrote on November 4th, 2013
        • I am thinking its because the questioner is losing muscle mass, and so Mark is advising against continuing something that is not good for him/her. I am probably at about 45-50 miles per week, but I am gaining muscle and feeling awesome, so I will continue. Fear not :-)

          KariVery wrote on November 4th, 2013
    • I don’t quite understand how you can lose muscle mass while walking…. I mean at that pace isn’t your body primarily using fat as a fuel… whether or not you’re keto adapted.

      To really break down muscle you need to be doing something glycolytic right? Or something with a really elevated heart rate?

      I guess the explanation is that he isn’t eating enough to overcome the caloric deficit… so his body is turning to muscle instead (akin to starvation)…. but still… I thought the body was supposed to turn to fat for these low level activities.

      I’m still a little confused.

      bjjcaveman wrote on November 4th, 2013
      • Muscle is living tissue, its default course of action is to die, constantly breaking down and rebuilding. There doesn’t need to be glycolytic activity for that to happen. If there’s insufficient input (stimulus, amino acids & more) it won’t replace at the rate it’s lost.

        Walking is mostly fat-fueled, but the body is a pretty complex thing. Glucose, Fatty Acids and Amino Acids aren’t just sitting in discrete fuel tanks allowing one to be used completely while the others stay perfectly preserved. There’s always a mix of fuels and a lot more going on that just raw calories going ‘out’.

        Mike wrote on November 5th, 2013
    • Do whatever works best for you. Every body is unique; some can tolerate more walking. If you’re getting the results you want in life, who can argue with that?

      I tend to walk a lot (not as much as 10 miles per day though), and find that it suits my lifestyle perfectly.

      Adam wrote on November 4th, 2013
      • Exactly.

        To clear up any confusion, the point of my response was that if you’re losing muscle, you’re walking too much. Anytime you’re using walking as your only exercise and you’re sitting in a large chronic caloric deficit (the guy was down 7k calories a week), you’re going to burn lean mass.

        Otherwise, walk all you want.

        Mark Sisson wrote on November 4th, 2013
  10. I would guess that most of the eggs from small family farms are both fertile and pasture raised. Most farms which are large enough to have a flock of chickens have a rooster to help protect the girls from predators. We do, at least.

    Laura wrote on November 4th, 2013
  11. I figure that Grok didn’t have issues with flexibility because his lifespan wasn’t as long. I never got sore after a workout until I turned 25 or so, but now I have to stretch like crazy after an Ultimate Frisbee match if I want to move the next day.

    Brian wrote on November 4th, 2013
    • It’s quite likely that pre-agricultural people lived much longer than previously thought. Here’s a discussion of why this might be so. Skip down to the last paragraph if you don’t want to read the whole thing.

      D. M. Mitchell wrote on November 4th, 2013
    • +1

      Even at 30, I notice the difference in how I need to be a lot smarter about rest, recovery and nutrition than I was at 20. I can still go hard and do some crazy stuff, but now I really feel the consequences the day after.

      No doubt Grok’s lack of having to occupy a desk for 8 hours a day, living a mobile, fractal lifestyle helped his cause, though.

      The whole mobility thing reminds me of Tallahassee in Zombieland… “You ever see a lion limber up before it takes down a gazelle?”

      Reventon wrote on November 4th, 2013
      • Actually I think lions stretch quite a bit between naps…

        jay wrote on November 4th, 2013
        • Nice one.
          A lot of animals stretch, right. Well except snakes maybe..
          Here are my thoughts:
          Stretching and mobility is important as flexibility and balance will decrease as we age.

          Petra wrote on November 4th, 2013
      • Wait till you turn 50 …

        Emily wrote on November 6th, 2013
  12. We didn’t even buy our kid shoes, other than winter boots, until she was at least 2. She went barefoot everywhere and we live in the city. She still won’t wear shoes when it isn’t freezing outside. She’s never cut her feet on glass or anything else either, although she has gotten gum on her. Who wants to spend money on shoes they grow out of in 2 weeks anyway? The only reason we started buying her shoes in the summer was because it got a little weird taking her into stores barefoot, and then school became an issue.

    Karen wrote on November 4th, 2013
  13. Soft Star shoes are awesome! My 2 1/2 year old son has been wearing them since he could walk and they are soft, flexible, but hold up incredibly well. Plus, they’re made by a small American company in Oregon.

    Sarah wrote on November 4th, 2013
  14. Jessica – also, check out Softstar Shoes, Xero shoes and Merrell. My daughter found some good shoes at Target (don’t know the brand), that were almost like moccasins and work great for my granddaughter!

    Huarache Gal wrote on November 4th, 2013
  15. Soft Star Shoes makes all different soft sole shoes from baby on up-I’ve found it hardest to find shoes once they turned 7 and Soft Star shoes do! Also made in Oregon. For babies/toddlers Robeez are great-more styles and they stay on!

    Jonette wrote on November 4th, 2013
  16. Robeez makes some little moccasins that are great for babies and toddlers as a minimalist shoe. I need to get a pair for my 13 month old. Those Nike sneakers can’t be good for movement and I’d like her to have something on her feet when we are walking around outside.

    Chauca wrote on November 4th, 2013
    • I had Robeez shoes for my granddaughter and they were wonderful. All leather, including the sole. I bought them used at a resale shop and they still looked great when she was done with them!

      Rema wrote on November 4th, 2013
  17. Thanks for the kids’ shoes recommendations! I’ve had my 18-month-old in Robeez until now, but she’s going to need something a little more substantial for winter (plus Robeez doesn’t make their awesome little leather shoes for bigger kids). Has anyone tried Pedipeds? I have heard they are close to barefoot but haven’t been able to check them out, and I’m a little dubious after checking out their website.

    April wrote on November 4th, 2013
  18. We used Robeez shoes for our kids which are a soft-soled leather slip-on. They go up to size 4. My daughter wore hers until she was 5 years old.

    Happycyclegirl wrote on November 4th, 2013
  19. Robeez makes some easy-to-find moccasins that always stayed on our kid’s feet.

    Megan wrote on November 4th, 2013
  20. I can also recommend Zutano’s or Robeez for the baby shoes. Soft soles, and they stay ON.

    Ellen wrote on November 4th, 2013
  21. Weston A Price, from memory, talked about eggs being fertile. It was the natural state of eggs before agriculture.

    Kit wrote on November 4th, 2013
  22. I would recommend moccasins as the footwear of choice for the crafty among you. They are relatively cheap (my local Tandy regularly puts kits on sale for $12) and give you just enough ground feel without causing issues. I have very flat feet, but still do sprints across rocky terrain in my moccasins. I cannot wear VFFs because my feet are just shaped wrong.

    If you want to make some from scratch, check out this link:

    Damien Gray wrote on November 4th, 2013
  23. I buy shoes for my almost 3 year old at She loves them too! There are lots of different color options and, if you’re not too picky, some ok sales on certain styles/colors. I also have a few pairs for me which I like.

    Meesha wrote on November 4th, 2013
  24. Jessica: take a look at softstarshoes, they offer a nice selection of barefoot shoes.

    Joel wrote on November 4th, 2013
  25. We recently took both my sons to buy shoes, and it was interesting to see the differences. I’ve learned a good bit since my oldest (who’s now 5 and a half) was born, and wasn’t comfortably guinea pigging him. So now my youngest (who’s 2 and a half) has hardly worn shoes. This trip was for his second pair. The first pair we bought I felt never really fit him–way too tight in the instep. This time, in order to get him a pair that “fit,” he wound up in shoes the size my oldest wore at four years old. His feet are wider, thicker, and stronger in comparison to his older brother’s. My favorite shoes for him? None. Second would be huaraches. Climate matters a lot, of course, however.

    ioelus wrote on November 4th, 2013
  26. Great lists for minimalist shoe-seekers:


    including options for kiddos!

    Kristine wrote on November 4th, 2013
  27. Soft Star Shoes in Oregon. Great minimalist footwear (moccasins) for kids and adults.

    Chris wrote on November 4th, 2013
  28. Dear Mark (Ha! I couldn’t resist!),

    You always have some great information in these “Dear Mark” segments and it is one of the things I look forward to on a Monday! I just wanted to comment generally that I appreciate the details you add in many of your answers to people’s questions that are reminders to us all of things to watch for, to consider, and to evaluate for ourselves (as in, are we doing it, or if we we were, why have we stopped?!).

    For instance, your reminders regarding benefits of “occasional hypercaloric carb refeeds,” the entire paragraph of useful tidbits that followed “Are you doing any strength training?”; and the whole first paragraph addressing the question about fertile eggs.

    Thank you so much for all that you do; in my eyes that means continuing to be a teacher and an inspiration!

    Kevin A Goldman wrote on November 4th, 2013
  29. Vibram fivefingers for toddlers. Sounds like a great concept until you try to put them on a toddler.

    Captain Comptition wrote on November 4th, 2013
    • Soft Star Shoes also makes great leather-soles shoes for babys to adults. They’re made in the USA. I love my Run-a-mocs

      Bruce wrote on November 4th, 2013
  30. Regarding minimalist shoes for children:

    Both of my boys went barefoot or wore just socks a lot when they were toddlers. When my wife or I thought they needed shoes, we put them in Robeez ( You might also try Soft Star Shoes (

    Thornton wrote on November 4th, 2013
  31. Merrell also makes some of there “barefoot” series of shoes for toddlers and kids. My son has had several pair of them now – thin sole, good flexiblity, lots of room in the forefoot and they look cool too!

    John L. wrote on November 4th, 2013
  32. Softstar shoes for kids and adults! Can’t say enough good things about their shoes. They are a very small US company.
    the shoes are handmade and awesome. I don’t think I’ll ever wear another brand again. I have no relation to the company just love their shoes. The only shoes my barefooting little girl will agree to wear when she needs to put on a pair of shoes.

    Primal123 wrote on November 4th, 2013
  33. For kids shoes which are soft there is a company here in Australia called Skeanies. I’ve been using them for my little one and they are great.

    They are preferred by the Australian and American Podiatric Medical Associations

    Steph wrote on November 4th, 2013
  34. Another plug for Robeez, great toddler shoes. Soft star also makes great moccasin type shoes for kids.

    hairy mountain beast wrote on November 4th, 2013
  35. Soft Star shoes from target are soft leather and fantastic. Not too expensive either.

    ce wrote on November 4th, 2013
  36. For the best shoes for little kids (and adults) check out Soft Star Shoes in Corvallis, Oregon, USA. They are on the web but my post with their web-address is still awaiting moderation.

    Nancy wrote on November 4th, 2013
  37. On the topic of soft-soled toddler shoes, here are a few more suggestions (from the mom of a toddler): Stride Rite SRTs are great, and have stood up to my daughter’s abuse better than some of the other brands; PediPed; Soft Star (they also have adult shoes); Livie and Lucie; and See Kai Run. My favorites are Stride Rite because, unlike many of the other brands, they have varying widths. My girl has a very wide foot, and they have an extra wide that gives her toes wiggle room. There’s a lot of really great minimalist (search for “soft soled shoes”) for babies. It gets trickier as they grow.

    Rachael W. wrote on November 4th, 2013
  38. I bought Robeez and Bobux for my son, but Softstar Shoes is a wonderful, made-in-the-U.S. option that I didn’t know about then (if they even existed). I have a pair of their adult shoes and they are great quality. Softstar treats their employees well and works hard to use environmentally-conscious practices. They have a few different sole options in their shoes, include some that look like they’d have better traction for toddlers than plain leather or suede.

    Susan wrote on November 4th, 2013
  39. Softstar also makes kid’s shoes.

    I walked too much when I hiked the Pacific Crest Trail. I was walking up to over 30 miles a day, usually around 26-28 miles a day. At the end of such an effort I could barely keep pace hiking with friends who hadn’t done the PCT with me. I was flabby and weak and I gained a lot of weight really quickly. It’s what set me on my journey toward Primal. I do want to hike the PCT again someday but I have to figure out a way to do it without forcing my body to consume its own muscle mass.

    Diane wrote on November 4th, 2013
    • You GAINED weight walking 30 miles/day???

      Mary Mac wrote on November 6th, 2013
  40. 2 replies actually.
    1. yeah, robeez for babies look like an excellent shoe. also soft star (they make the runamoc) makes kiddie shoes.
    2. i did some independent research awhile back and i came up with 5-6 miles a day for a female hunter gatherer and 6-7 for a male.

    allison wrote on November 4th, 2013

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