Why organic food, Mark?
(59 posts) (33 voices)-
OnTheBayou
MemberKatt, while I fully agree that pesticide free food is the best way to go, many pesticides have little or no effect on us mammals. Remember DDT? Do you recall why it was banned? No, not because it was bad for us, but bad for birds.
The organophosphate class of pesticides is hugely toxic during use, not so much as residue.
Genetic manipulation and hybridization has been going on both naturally and man-assisted for thousands of years. Picking seeds for increased vigor, larger produce, whatever.
I'm saying, long windedly, it's not so black and white.
Normal, natural, foods, wild or organic, have toxic components, but our bodies handle them nicely, BTW.
Posted 4 months ago # -
as a young married couple who just bought their first house this year. sure, i'd love to buy all those $$ expensive goods but i live in a climate with 4 seasons!
in the summer time i support a local CSA which is great but in the winter months i buy frozen brocc/cauliflower/blueberries and in the produce aisle- non-organic greens, apples, oranges and squash. i adhere to a more seasonal eating approach simply because it's a lot more cost effective. i feel that in the long run this won't make me "suffer" compared to other PB followers eating organic.
Posted 4 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
MemberMy grandmothers never did.
But lest we all get teary eyed for a golden past existing only in our minds, remember than in those years they absolutely did not garden what we would call organically.
My mother and father were typical post-war "back to the land" types and they saw nothing wrong with DDT or chemical fertilizers. And prior to DDT, people saw nothing wrong with "'cides" made from lead, arsenic, copper, lye, and worse.
Then a lot of produce went into jars, often with lots of sugar.
I think I hear some bubbles popping......
Posted 4 months ago # -
True. And remember if Great great Grandpa's crops failed it could be one of his kids starving to death.
No need for rose tinted specs - but "progress" isn't always better either!
Posted 4 months ago # -
Skeptic
MemberSaying "No one will ever convince me.." is the least objective thing you can say. Ever. I also feel it noteworthy that there is nothing natural at all about tilling soil, infusing it with manure and forcing plant life to grow in it. So really, the tampering with nature argument is moot.
I don't think the environmental argument holds much water either. The earth is a fantastic mechanism of life, it has been battered by meteors, solar flares, earth quakes, volcanic eruptions, floods, forest fires, nuclear warheads, you name it.. And it is still here, more vibrant and active than ever. In that perspective, it doesn't seem so awful spraying some chemicals into an area of surface dirt equivalent to a speck on the global scale. Also let us not forget, anything we put into the environment, synthetic or organic, all originated from the earth, I'm pretty sure the earth will adapt to it.
Our bodies are also magnificent, adaptable machines that respond to what we put in to it, just like any other machine. "Garbage in, garbage out" as they say. Even so, the body has mechanisms to expel that which is not desired, in reasonable amounts. Without doing a fact check here, I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that anything you eat already contains worse things than the synthetic pesticide residue.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Sharonll
MemberI eat the vegetables I grow in organic raised beds in my own yard, no pesticides but lots of homegrown compost and worm castings. When my veggies aren't in season, I buy onions, garlic, green veggies from my local supermarket, but not much else. I eat eggs from my own chickens, cream and butter from a nearby grass-fed farm, and otherwise, grass-finished beef and pork. It's not that difficult to avoid most pesticides if you're willing to do a little bit of labor.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Skeptic
MemberSharonll, that is awesome that you do all that, I'll bet it is quite rewarding eating a meal you grew (mostly) yourself :)
I certainly don't aim to discourage you from doing what you want to do, but I ask everyone to truly and objectively weigh all the benefits and risks, using valid data. If you consider all of that labor to be work, then you should consider the impact that has on your life and determine whether or not that time and expense could be employed in something even more enriching.
I just can't ignore the conventional method's proven track record of safety and commit to the much greater expense of organic simply to alleviate fear of something that I already know is not harmful to me. That is just being practical.
Posted 4 months ago # -
lbd
MemberI grow almost all of my own produce (which I freeze) for winter use without the use of pesticides or artificial fertilizers. We use vegetable kitchen waste for compost along with horse and chicken manure which makes an excellent base for growing in raised bed gardens. The beds are extremely easy to maintain - no tilling, except a simple raking through in the spring, and some easy weeding. No pesticides except some hungry chickens which do a great job of removing bugs. I buy mostly heirloom seeds and plants because they produce better tasting vegetables compared to the hybridized ones made for producing market vegetables. The hybrid plants often are developed to make produce that is made to last or be extra firm for market, not for taste. I use some hybrids - mostly those developed many decades ago that are resistant to fungi or viral infestations and were developed for taste. GMO vegetables involve another species - usually bacteria - to insert new genetic material. This is not the same as hybridization to select from genetic material already present in the plant.
Having bought grain-fed meats in the past and now buying grass-fed beef and pasture-raised chickens and pork (they are omnivorous), I can say first-hand that there is a huge difference in taste. The naturally-fed animals taste better - hands down. Same for the vegetables. If you want to taste a real summer tomato, come to my house this summer :)
Posted 4 months ago # -
glorth2
MemberI don't want this to turn into a political debate as it may. I'm not going to go nuts on the advantages of organic almonds or blueberries vs. regular but know this. Saying that grass-fed beef is no better than regular store bought is just - plain - stupid. Do the research and eat for yourself, not your politics.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Okay...wow. A lot of information...and misinformation.
Have any of the people who are for "conventional" farming and using DDT and other pesticides read "Silent Spring"? People who sprayed that stuff and similar pesticides DID have side effects, some of them even died. And as to birds dying? That only helps out some of the pests because they're not getting eaten by the birds (there's that nasty ecosystem thing coming into play). Plus, pests can become resistant resulting in use of stronger/more pesticides. Oh yes, the kicker...the buildup of DDT (and possibly other pesticides). Say an area is sprayed (or whatever). Great it killed the pests. Then an animal eats something contaminated with the pesticide. That animal now has a certain amount of pesticide in it. The more that the animal eats of the contaminated food, the more will REMAIN in it's body. Then that animal gets eaten by another animal (or human). Now that consuming animal gets the store of pesticide in it's body, plus all it's other food sources that are contaminated. I know this is one of the side effects of early pesticides, but I'm not sure if it's the same for today's pesticides. I would not like to take that chance.
As for organic farming not being more nutritional, there are micronutrients that cannot be obtained from conventional farming. We need these micronutrients as much as we need phosphorus, nitrogen, and whatever the other macronutrient is. I learned this from someone who studied...I don't remember the correct name for it, but she studied farming/plants.
I do agree that organic is not the most cost-effective nor "sustaining the whole population" thing. However, I just wanted to put some facts out there for you to think about.
Posted 4 months ago # -
emmie
MemberI do the best I can with vegetables, although I eat a lot of frozen broccoli and spinach. However, I eat ONLY grass-fed beef or humanely raised pork, chicken, etc. I'd be a vegetarian (horrors) before I eat factory-farmed meat, not because it's bad for me (although it is)but because of the poor animals.
My Thanksgiving turkey cost me $98, but I'd go without turkey before buying one from the supermarket.
Posted 3 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
Member$98 for a turkey?
Lots of sweeping generalizations going on here that are rooted more in emotions and facts w/o substance.
I am all for ridding our ag system of "'cides" as much as possible. I'm all for raising our dairy and meat animals as humanely as possible. I'm all for farmworker's good health. I was doing organic gardening when is was highly ridiculed, if a person even had a general idea of what it is.
We have come a long way since Silent Spring about how we use pesticides and hormones and treat animals. Are we perfect yet? Hell, no. Are we doing things better? Absolutely.
I was one of the first EPA certified applicators in Colorado, way back when the EPA was pretty new. I needed that in order to do certain things with my landscaping company. I'm guessing that I was doing some of these things, and I've seen many positive changes since some posters here were little sprats. Or not even.
I guess I just don't deal well with ungrounded hysteria.
Posted 3 months ago # -
Tune in next week, everyone, when I'll be providing my take on this organic debate!
Posted 3 months ago # -
Kaizen
MemberHaha, oh and I second the watching of Food, inc. I just watched it and it's not really biased either way, but they show how bad conventional growing can be. If you ask me, the way they conventionally grow crops and treat animals is quite terrible. I'm all for grass fed beef, there's a big difference. You can't tell me that there is no difference, that's quite ridiculous. I shop at whole foods, although I know I can buy 50% of my food elsewhere cheaper. Just depends how smart you are about it. Personally I only want to eat grass fed beef if I can. It's much healthier, and I know the animals weren't sitting knee deep into their own crap being pumped with antibiotics. As far as produce goes, I'll try to eat locally grown or try to buy organic if it's cheaper.
Posted 3 months ago # -
mstrudle
MemberThe ideal would be to buy everything single source, organic, free-trade, free range, all-natural, blah blah et cetera and so on and so forth. However, that quickly becomes quite expensive for the majority of people, so the second best yet still quite beneficial approach is to minimize the amount of pesticides and other chemical nasties ingested.
You should buy organic when it comes to the dirtiest crops, such as spinach or apples. You should also buy organic or grassfed meats, free-range poultry, and wild fish. Dairy should also be organic if you buy it; basically, any animal product is best when minimally processed.
You shouldn't buy organic when it comes to crops that are grown most cleanly, such as avocadoes, which have thick inedible skins that don't easily absorb pesticides.
I used to spend most of my money at Whole Foods, but now I buy the majority of groceries at Trader Joes. The products are high quality and of suitable origin. They even have grass-fed beef. I only buy vegetables at Whole Foods, less wasteful packaging than Traders, and sometimes even cheaper by pound.
Posted 3 months ago # -
fbw
Memberit's only expensive because many people haven't realised that a part of real sustainability means providing some of your own food and connecting with your local community of food producers.
in some ways, not embracing seasonality and regionality in one's diet make it harder to stay primally oriented, because you lose that access to rhythms that Grok had to just accept and live around.
this idea that only a handful of people are supposed to grow food is extremely recent (even nobles did some hunting and gardening of their own).
life gets a lot less expensive and stressful when you can be food-sufficient, remain close with your local community and thus not need a high salary. and less stress is definitely primal.
Posted 3 months ago # -
It tastes better.
You can't convince me that tomatoes I find in a store that came from Mexico are "the same" as ones I plucked off the vine in my greenhouse. Once you've tasted real food, you don't go back. I've tasted and seen the difference for myself.
I think that has little to do with food that's certified organic as well. My food in my garden, my greenhouse, my farmers market, very little of it is certified. But I know what I put on it, and I know what my farmers put on it. The beef I get comes from a farm 45 minutes away. They're not certified organic, but they don't use hormones or antibiotics and welcome visitors. I think that is key to finding real food. Visit or do it yourself. If you don't like what you see, don't put it in your mouth.
Posted 3 months ago # -
Dave RN
MemberSkeptic...
You trust the EPA!!??
Really?
Do a little reading on fluoride. Then take another look at trusting the EPA (and the FDA for that matter).
Once I realized what fluoride does to the body, I got a whole house filter to get rid of that stuff. Then I stopped trusting the EPA and the FDA.Posted 2 months ago #
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