What happens to extra fat?
(95 posts) (21 voices)-
One thing I don't 100% understand is .. what happens to the fat we eat that our body decides it doesn't need for energy?
Like... I understand ketosis and breaking down our body's fat stores for energy...
but the fat we eat... if it's not all used, do we just poop it out? (Sorry to be gross, but how else can you say it?) Where does it go?
*blank stare*
Posted 9 months ago # -
brahnamin
MemberSome of the fat we eat will not get absorbed and will indeed remain in the digestive tract and head south to be eliminated.
I don't rightly know what happens to the fat that does get absorbed but isn't needed. I was of the hopeful impression that the body eliminated it via other routes (sweat, etc), but I've actually been wondering the same thing myself, so I'm glad you posted this.
Posted 9 months ago # -
hmm... hopefully someone with answers will read this. haha.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Ok, I'm sorry, but all that did was confuse me- LOL. Too technical for my brain tonight. Will give it another try in the morning. ;)
Posted 9 months ago # -
Conan
MemberThere is a really long, scientific discussion around this topic but I'll try to simplify:
Fat, Protein, and Carbs all have to be converted by the body before being stored in the fat cells. You would think that dietary fat would be the easiest to be converted and stored in fat cells, but there is strong evidence that carbs are even more easily converted and stored as fat than dietary fat. A lot of conditions must exist for fat to be stored in the body (regardless of whether it is from carbs, fat, or protein).
The right environment must exist for fat to be stored in the fat cells. In addition to excessive energy intake, the hormones Insulin and Cortisol both promote fat storage (there is also a phosphate that assists in the process of shuttling fatty acids into the cells). Simple carbohydrates raise insulin levels and chronically high insulin levels promote the storage of fat. Stress increases cortisol which can also promote fat storage. Overeating provides excess energy which will lead to fat storage if the environment is right.
It has been my personal experience that the combination of stress and excess carbohydrates has more impact on fat storage than energy intake (overeating). I have also recently switched to a very high fat diet (50+% of calories) and have increased my total daily calories and am losing weight in the process. Makes me think that the environment you create may be much more important than the amount of calories you eat.
I should also point out that I have been very active for years and have been getting plenty of excercise (even before I switched to low-carb dieting). Excercise has also been shown to control insulin and cortisol levels and promote fat burning.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Yeah, I know about insulin and storing extra glucose as fat in your body... but I'm asking what happens to the extra fat you eat if your body doesn't need it. Does it just get expelled (in the toilet)?
Posted 9 months ago # -
Conan
MemberNope, you will store it as fat. You can't eat an unlimited amount of calories on a low carb diet and still lose weight. The benefit of low carb is that your body more readily utilizes fat for energy, including stored body fat, so you will eventually burn off that excess dietary fat that was stored. High carb diets promote fat storage and make it much more difficult to tap into stored fat for energy, making it much more difficult to lose body fat.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Tarlach
MemberWell either your body processes the fat, or it gets expelled. There aren't any other options.
If your body processes the fat it gets used for fuel or it can also be burned in futile cycling (as I posted before).
It DOES NOT get stored as fat if you are low carb.
You CAN eat a massive excess of calories and still lose weight, as long as those calories are fat and you don't eat carbs.
...I can't believe everyone is still so brainwashed about calorific deficit, in the age of 'Good Calories, Bad Calories'.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Ok, I read it again and still don't really understand it. I was never good at science anyways. Plain english.
So are you saying that if I ate say... just meat and fat, even in excess, I would lose weight? (Not that I plan on doing this, but it's really hard to wrap my brain around the concept. I like puzzles.)
Posted 9 months ago # -
Tarlach
MemberYes you can eat only fat and meat in excess and lose weight.
I have seen steady weight loss with a massive abundance of calories (5000 calories a day, 80%+ fat) with zero exercise. The experiment was undertaken to check this exact theory.
Fat storage is all about the carbs, not fat.
Posted 9 months ago # -
That's crazy... not crazy in that I don't believe it... just crazy that it's hard to wrap my brain around. It flies in the face of everything I've had drilled into me about weight loss.
It's like a riddle, or as if somebody just told me that grass is purple. LOL.
Thank you, Tarlach, for teaching me something new. :)
Posted 9 months ago # -
Tarlach
MemberWell it makes sense if you think about it from an evolutionary view.
If food is plentiful and you are getting lots of calories from fat, then you don't need to store fat of your own. This is why calorific deficit is so hard. The body fights to keep the fat if it thinks your are starving.
Eating calories from carbs is different though. It probably means that it is summer and you should put on fat before winter comes. The carbs then work as a seasonal trigger to store fat, independently to fat consumption..
These two forces would have kept paleo man lean unless he required fat stores for winter. It's the year round high carb (and low fat diet) that makes people fat.
It's almost impossible for people to accept, but one reason why weight loss stalls is because you aren't eating enough. It however does explains why some thin people can eat all they want, whilst fat people can get fatter whilst trying not to eat anything.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Thanks so much Tarlach for your patience and willingness to teach. :)
Posted 9 months ago # -
Conan
MemberI disagree with Tarlach, as do nearly all of the folks who promote zone/paleo (this is the Crossfit version of PB eating). If you want to get your body fat in the low teens and single digits you absolutely have to pay attention to portion size. Once you get closer to your ideal weight, weight loss from low carb dieting will slow. You are not going to continue to lose body fat eating 5000 calories a day with no physical activity once you get to a certain point.
Tarlach, what is your current height, weight and BF% and how far are you form your ideal weight? I'm 5'11 185 and 12%-15%BF. I'm looking to lose my last 5 pounds of fat and maintain muscle.
Posted 9 months ago # -
haha, well you didn't have to say it 3 times!
I have to say though... I don't think there's any way I COULD eat 5000 (or even 3000) calories a day with this way of eating. Food is just SO FILLING and I am not getting very hungry in general...
but I guess I'm just a dainty girl. haha. Maybe some guys here could eat that much.I'm eating "whatever I want" (within the PB as well as I can be for my first week) and have been around 1600/day on average.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Tarlach
MemberIt wasn't me who did the high fat/calorie experiment, I just know the guy who did it.
* His required maintenance calories was calculated at ~2100.
* The expected values are calculated as if calories in = calories out.
* The first week is low as it took a while for fat burning to start.
* Also the weight loss slowed with dairy and then increased when dairy was omitted again.Otherwise it was a pretty consistent 2kg loss a week, irregardless of number of calories eaten.
eg. Some weekly summaries
--
Week 1
Food: Seasoned Meat and Water
Average Calories: 5232
Average Fat: 86%
Expected: 2.8 kg body fat gain
Actual: 0.4 kg body fat loss
______________________________________Week 2
Food: Seasoned Meat and Water
Average Calories: 4026
Average Fat: 88%
Expected: 1.7 kg body fat gain
Actual: 1.9 kg body fat loss
______________________________________Week 3
Food: Seasoned Meat and Water
Average Calories: 3057
Average Fat: 84%
Expected: 0.9 kg body fat gain
Actual: 2.0 kg body fat loss
______________________________________Week 4
Food: Seasoned Meat & Eggs, Cheese, Butter, Water
Average Calories: 3098
Average Fat: 80%
Expected: 0.9 kg body fat gain
Actual: 0.8 kg body fat loss
______________________________________Week 5 (I think he cut dairy out early in this week)
Food: Seasoned Meat & Eggs, Butter, Water
Average Calories: 3186
Average Fat: 82%
Expected: 1.0 kg body fat gain
Actual: 1.6 kg body fat lossetc.
--Conan - Just because you don't agree with me, doesn't mean I am wrong. Also not all the paleo eaters do crossfit, so I doubt you speak for many of them. I am a member of a quite a few paleo forums and plenty of members there agree that calories do not matter.
I have eaten very strict paleo for over three years, but moved towards more high fat/low carb. I eat about 3000 calories a day.I am 6'1, 183, and 11% bf. I am at my ideal weight. You do not have to watch portion size to get low bf. I got there eating a lot of calories.
Maybe you should try it if you can't lose the last 5lb of fat with your current regime...
Posted 9 months ago # -
BigBeck89
MemberAgree with Tarlach, I've seen the same kind of zero-carb experiments done. People can't seem to wrap their brains around things like futile cycling that just burn away calories.
That being said, I can eat unlimited calories(if very low carb) and not gain a pound....but I tend to not lose any either...so I do have to throw in some low calorie days or IF days to lose when I want to.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Tarlach
MemberHigh fat and calories doesn't seem to work with dairy for some reason? Not that we eat dairy on paleo anyway.
I do also lean towards IF and only have one main meal a day.
My wife eats very similar food to me, but she eats two or three meals a day (she eats when the kids eat). She also lost a lot of weight without restricting calories.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Conan
MemberI didn't mean to imply that you were wrong Tarlach, only that I disagreed. You are also correct that not everyone is interested in CrossFit / athletic performance. I think the reason so many CrossFitters monitor portion sizes is because they are trying to improve athletic performance and not just lose weight. Most have found that they need a certain amount of carbs, a certain number of calories, and a certain proportion of macronutrients to maximize athletic performance. Paleo foods in Zone proportions seems to be the one that has worked the most effectively.
If I'm reading your post correctly, there were no fruits / vegetables included in his diet. It appears he was eating strictly meat and fat. While this might be effective for weight loss, I wonder what his vitamin profile would look like? Fruits and vegetables have a lot of nutrients and antioxidants that you can't get from meat and fat.
I also wonder about energy levels on this type of diet. I had some issues with energy levels and workouts when I dropped my carbs below 150g per day. I am a very active person so this probably doesn't apply to everyone but when you are very active it can take some time to adjust to lower carbs.
Everyone has different goals. I don't want to lose any muscle or compromise my workouts so I can't go no carb (or too much below 150g / day). It sounds like you may be able to eat more calories on extremely low carb intakes without impact but I know that won't work for me.
Congrats on your weight loss Tarlach. That's an impressive BF% for someone that does not excercise.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Tarlach
MemberI did look at the vitamin content of meat recently. It's quite surprising the amount of vitamin and minerals in just a bit of fatty meat. The Inuit live on just meat, so it can't be that deficient ;)
Check out cronometer for food tracking (similar to fitday, but offline):
http://spaz.ca/cronometer/A good dose of pork belly, some nuts, 20 of beef liver and a bit of broccoli maxes out most vitamin RDI's and most of the default minerals. So it doesn't look like you need a lot of fruit and veg.
I have been doing some strength training this year and I'm pretty happy with my gains. I know you get better gains at the begging, but I have pretty about doubled all my weights within 6 months. I tried bumping my carbs, but didn't notice any improvements (and I was just hungry all the time). I'm back to fat for fuel when working out.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Conan
MemberI haven't moved on to organ meats yet, though I do enjoy pork belly in the form of uncured bacon. With my current diet, I need the fruits/veggies to get my vitamins (according to my Fitday profiles). I'll have to look into adding organ meat and other low carb sources that can provide me with all of the vitamins I get from fruits and veggies. I'll need to ease my way into it though because dropping below 150g of carbs definitely takes some adjustment.
Posted 9 months ago # -
michelle
MemberI'm sorry but it doesn't make any sense from an evolutionary perspective for the body to not be able to store ANY fat when carbohydrate is not available. Why are the Inuit not "ripped"? From what I've read, the mechanism for fat storage in the absence of insulin is Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP). Here's an interesting post on it: http://sparkofreason.blogspot.com/2008/06/swift-kick-in-asp.html
From the link above
"Eat lots of fat, intestines create lots of chylomicrons. Chylomicrons stimulate fat cells to make ASP, which in turn increases fat storage. "and
"While it may be hard to gain fat through a high-fat diet, it is likely possible to keep on a certain level of body-fat. Low-carbohydrate diets are known to "stall", where the last 20 or so pounds just won't come off, regardless of carbohydrate restriction. I suspect our friend ASP plays a crucial role here. The low insulin levels on a low-carb diet will allow the fat cells to free fatty acids, but if you are consuming enough fat, at some point this effect will be balanced by that of ASP, and voila, no more fat loss."
Posted 9 months ago # -
BigBeck89
Member"I'm sorry but it doesn't make any sense from an evolutionary perspective for the body to not be able to store ANY fat when carbohydrate is not available."
no one was saying this. they were saying when no INSULIN was available. fat doesn't create an insulin response, but protein does, which the Inuit eat plenty of.
Posted 8 months ago # -
ATZ
MemberOh the science is bad in this one!
Let get this straight. Fat will store itself with tremendous efficiency in the absence of insulin. I know shock horror! The hormone known as ASP (Acylation Stimulating Protein) is secreted by the adipocytes when chylomicrons (package triglyceride in the blood) are dected, and then packages them (the triglyceride) away into the adipocyte (simplictic but will do for this example). The body also absorbs most of what you eat with tremendous efficiency too, there's no way we would have evolved to excrete ingested foods / energy, so the conjecture that we'll poop out excess protein and carbs is pure myth.
"Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) is a small (mol wt 14,000), basic (pI 9.0) protein present in human plasma. When examined in vitro with normal human cultured skin fibroblasts and adipocytes, ASP appears to be the most potent stimulant of triglyceride synthesis yet described. In this study, a competitive ELISA assay for ASP has been developed using immunospecific polyclonal antibodies, and ASP levels have been measured in seven normal subjects. Following an oral fat load, a sustained significant increase in ASP occurs, whereas after an oral glucose load, ASP levels do not change significantly. These responses are entirely opposite to those of insulin, which rises sharply but transiently after an oral glucose load but is unchanged after an oral fat load. Both the fasting and peak ASP levels were significantly related to the postprandial lipemia. These data provide the first in vivo evidence that Acylation Stimulating Protein may play an important physiological role in the normal response to an oral fat load."
This explains quite well how you CAN get fat on a low carb diet. Unfortuantely contrary to Taubes calories DO matter.
The examples of people posting studies of subjects losing weight on an ad-lib low carb high fat diet are usually down to eating less calories overall than they actually thought (Fat and Protein are very hunger curbing). Explain to me why there are thousands of low carb forums with hundreds of overweight people posting on them? Yes I advocate the PB way of eating, but I'm afraid calories do matter ultimately.
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Posted 8 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
Member"I'm afraid calories do matter ultimately."
As I've often pointed out, there were no fat people at Daschau. Eventually, ultimately, calories count. But a big difference is that ultimately those poor souls had no control of what, when, or how much they ate. I'm guessing that a lot of the thin soups given were loaded with undigestible carbs, ie., peelings, sawdust, whatever. Low GI!
Taubes does say in his lecture that some carbs are necessary, but doesn't delve into that point very much. What he does do, I think, is put scientific - dare I say this? - flesh onto the age old observation of fat peasantry.
Posted 8 months ago # -
Conan
MemberThanks for the explanation ATZ. My personal belief is that calories do not matter as much as the environmental factors (excercise, stress, insulin levels) and quality of diet (low carb, non-processed foods) but at some point calories do come into play. So once you get your environment and diet quality under control, you will lose weight up to a point. If you stop losing weight then you need to evaluate the calories. That is essentially the point that I am at now with my diet.
Posted 8 months ago #
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