Vaccines
(125 posts) (30 voices)-
I think that the uncertainty about vaccination is, in the vast majority of cases, tremendously counterbalanced by the potential benefits it brings.
^This.
Hyperbolic fears expounded by dubious websites which generally contain little, if any, evidenciary support
vs.
http://www.aap.org/pressroom/images/mm/measles3.jpg
http://vaccines.stanford.edu/images/polio_large.jpg
http://www.southlakeland.gov.uk/images/child_with_mumps.jpgThis is not to say that all vaccines are equal in terms of risk assessment. I personally will not be getting an H1N1 vaccine as I am uncomfortable with the lack of human trials. Were I to read convincing arguments for the necessity, efficacy, and safety of the vaccine, I would be open to changing my opinion.
Healthy immune systems have been mentioned, but is this really a factor with diseases like polio and measles? I don't have a strong scientific or medical background, but I was under the impression that the immune system cannot protect a body from certain diseases regardless of how strong said immune system is.
Oh, @Nick:
Possessive pluralizing makes baby Grok cry.
made this English Major's day. (I am certain to have missed a typo somewhere just because I said that!)
Posted 6 months ago # -
bcreager
Memberdragonmamma:
Here's the link to where I got the info from:
http://www.vaccineinformation.org/Click on any of the diseases on the left, and then click on the Vaccines Q & A
-bcreager
Posted 6 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
MemberAs mentioned, I was a "Polio Pioneer" of Dr. Salk's, being given the vaccine and not a placebo about 1953. I still have a certificate or something about it somewhere. I remember getting the shot in the (new) school gym.
So, 1995 is more than way off. Even the Sabin oral vaccine was around by maybe the 1970's.
The parents were told whether their kids got the real juice or not eventually.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Kryz
MemberSkipped the bulk of the thread, but I'm all for vaccinations. Not getting your children vaccinated puts them at a huge huge risk, and every child that isn't vaccinated creates a chance for a horrible disease to enter a community/town/city/state and so on. The autism theory has been disproven, and as long as adequate testing has been done, there seems to be no problem.
Posted 6 months ago # -
gnosis
Member^^^^^^
Ok everybody relax now the autism theory has apparently been disproven....shoot em up with literally 5-15 times what we used to get in the USA and what other countries get now on top of the toxic load from the environment. Amish dont get autism,other countries dont have the rates we have....25 years ago it was 1 in 150,000 now its between 1 and 150 to 86 depending on source.Cancer rates are now 1 in 3 from 1 in 30 80 yrs ago.
Squalene and mercury are good for you....so is fluoride,the government wants to take real good care of you and your family,the TV said so.Posted 6 months ago # -
Ah, guess you must not have immersed yourself in Amish culture then.
But I have and many Amish do vaccinate both in my former home of Western Pennsylvania and my current one in reach of Lancaster County Pennsylvania. Mennonites also vaccinate.
I've watched Amish women taking their children into my GP's office (as well as my former pediatrician's) to have them vaccinated.
More common in their community, though, are issues related to mental retardation, Downs, epilepsy, and ADHD. There are also Amish with severe depression, some treated, and some left untreated, depending on the progressiveness of their Ordnung. Some treat issues with modern medicine, others rely on homeopathy, chiropractors, and reflexology.
There's an article swimming around authored by Dan Olmsted claiming the Amish avoid autism by avoiding vaccination. Obviously, I call BS from personal observations.
Posted 6 months ago # -
But there's an article about it so it must be true!
Seriously, I know that someone already mentioned it, but part of responsibly using the internet involves evaluating the veracity of any information. The convergence of idiocy fed by the dissemination of sensationalist media is the biggest downside of the internet revolution.
Posted 6 months ago # -
PrimalJewishAmericanPrincess
MemberI am just going to throw this out there, because I was having a discussion with a child psychologist last night about this subject. Autism. Unfortunately there is no medical test wherein a doctor pulls your blood and gives a diagnosis for it. It is a series of questions and the answers determine the infliction. Is it possible that autism is the fad that ADHD was in the 90's? The, (sorry), excuse that the child is just not smart and therefore must have a medical condition because there is no way that MY kid is, well, dumb? I'm not denying that it exists, just that, like ADHD, it has become over diagnosed as we search for excuses for our children?
Posted 6 months ago # -
PJAP - Exactly. A lot of the rise in autism has a lot to do with psychological profiling. Many adults lying on the spectrum of autistic disorders were not diagnosed until awareness was raised in the mid 80s, early 90s. It's not that these conditions didn't exist previously, it's that they were never recognized, diagnosed, or recorded.
In the past, you were shy or backward...now you have Asperger's. If anyone has read it, "Look me in the eye" by John Elder Robison is a memoir of the author's undiagnosed childhood autism. He never realized why he didn't deal well in certain social situations until adulthood. He was simply labelled "different" as a child.
I think also what's caused a rise in many ADHD-related disorders are our lifestyles, diet, and culture.
Posted 6 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
Member"The Carbohydrate Specific Diet" (which see) claims that it has been effective for autism. So, mercury or carbs? Or a defective gene stack? We still don't know so much. Or is that we know so little?
I certainly understand the pain of those with an autistic child and their need for answers. But we have to work towards correct, consistent, logical (scientific) answers.
The Amish are not Luddites, FYI. The reason they all live the same and shun most modern "conveniences" is so that no one is "better" than the other, so there is no jealousy. In one case I read of, the church told a farmer to go buy a tractor because his arthritis was so bad he couldn't plow with horses.
Frankly, I think they are correct in their assertions about human nature. They, unlike so many claiming the mantle of Christianity, certainly showed the world what forgiveness was about after the Nickel Mines shootings.
Posted 6 months ago # -
SerialSinner
MemberI am wondering if Autism could be linked to diet. Omega-3s are supposed to play an important role in the development of the central nervous system, and is administered to the new born baby through maternal milk.
As PJAP and mrd32 mentioned, the high incidence of Autism in the US might be related to faults in diagnosis. If not, the SAD, with it's odd O-6:O-3 ratios, could also play a role on that.
Posted 6 months ago # -
gnosis
MemberPosted 6 months ago # -
SerialSinner
Membergnosis, I wonder if the quality of sources matter to you when you post references.
The first link has no serious references and contains a lot of speculation. And the Pakistan Daily seems genuinely concerned about the vaccination issues.
But do you have access to any serious *****RESEARCH***** papers justifying your apparently strong generalized mistrust towards vaccines?
Posted 6 months ago # -
PrimalJewishAmericanPrincess
MemberI suppose I can claim some expertise (performance based, not medical) in the diet/ADHD child theory. I am a teacher by trade and spent 4 years at a Sylvan Learning Center (k-12 tutoring) as a Director. A good 80% of the students there struggled with school and came for assistance. And of those 80%, most of them had parents that claimed ADHD, a few claimed autism, but there were no testing sites in the immediate area so they could not know for sure (this was 2002). At that time, I had no knowledge of the primal diet, but encouraged the parents to eliminate all sugars, food additives, and any "fake" food. Carbs were still okay (although I wouldn't advocate for it now!), but in the form of potatoes and whole grains. You'd think I was the messiah! Kids experienced a DRAMATIC turn around. ADHD disappeared and parents could take their kids off of ritalin and adderal.
The problem is, and many parents don't even realize this, is that companies and big pharma are taking over the schools. When I was teaching, I was amazed that companies like pizza hut and mcdonalds actually have mini-restaurants inside of the schools. They will have a pizza hut or mcdonalds or taco bell "day" when the students are able to purchase this crap as their lunch. Same thing with soda. The schools, because they are underfunded by the government, get HUGE, HUGE, stipends from these restaurants and companies to peddle this shit to our kids. It's horrible. So, kids eat crap at school, gain weight, do poorly in their classes, and are diagnosed with ADHD, autism, dyslexia, etc. They are then drugged and the cycle continues.Posted 6 months ago # -
SerialSinner
MemberPJAP that's very interesting and, at the same time, extremely depressing.
I try to not have a dogmatic position against big corporations and big pharma, and for the most part, I gravitate heavily towards libertarianism and free markets.
What I don't know is to what extent is it ok to push diets that appear to create some sort of dependence and are obviously detrimental to child's health?
Look at this post I found some days ago by Dr. Eades:
In an autopsy study of 238 children ages 9-19 from the San Diego area, 17% were found to have fatty livers. Among obese children, the statistics were even more dreadful: 45% had NAFLD. As Dr. Schwimmer noted, based on those statistics and with an estimated 9 million obese children in the US today, “that’s a lot of kids walking around with liver disease that no on knows about.”
Posted 6 months ago # -
PrimalJewishAmericanPrincess
MemberI'm all for objectivism, however, Ayn Rand's principal can only successfully exist if people are intelligent enough to make informed decisions. So often, this isn't the case. Because of this, a big brother type of government is somewhat needed to step in and do what is "best" for the general public. The problem is, they are not. They are pushing, like you said, unhealthy practices on those that cannot make informed decisions, passing it off as healthy or if not healthy, at least acceptable. In Grok's day, this would have taken care of itself. Only the strong would survive and the rest would just disappear. However, now the same corporations that put out the poison also produce the drugs to keep people alive long enough to buy more poison. It's sick.
Posted 6 months ago # -
gnosis
Memberhttp://www.vacinfo.org/researchers.htm
I don't know what kind of research papers you want SerialSinner because there would be no funding to study adverse effects and when adverse effects are found they are simply covered up. This has been extensively documented in aspartame studies.
I have to use a little common sense here and say that numerous foreign proteins,heavy metals and live viruses injected directly into the blood stream is probably not a good idea especially if you weigh 50 lbs or are pregnant.Look up the MSDS on the ingredients yourself.
Also big pharm(Baxter)have been caught putting live bird flu virus in vaccines just a few months ago as well as conducting eugenics in Africa via tetanus shots.Dont distrust big Phar??search Bayer Factor8...look at what happened in the '70's with the swine flu vaccine that killed more people that the virus.If that doesn't instill a sense of mistrust then I don't know what would.I simply look at the info as best I can from people like neurosurgeon Russel Blaylock as well as many years of observation and make my decisions based on that.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Nick
MemberOkay, re: the Amish and their lack of autism, I'm going to point back in the thread a couple pages to the article I linked to about Vitamin D and autism. How much D do you think Amish kids get? A lot.
I've heard that techie couples in Silicon Valley have children with higher rates of autism. Might have something to do with staying inside all the time on the computer.
Posted 6 months ago # -
I haven't gotten a vaccine in 3 years (I, before I knew better I got a meningitis vaccine when I lived in the dorms at college - that thing hurt for weeks.)
My siblings (3 & 5) haven't had vaccines. Neither have our pets.
Posted 6 months ago # -
SerialSinner
MemberGnosis, I understand skepticism about CW and keeping an open mind about possible flaws behind the creation and use of vaccines.
What you are basically saying is that the whole scientific community is conspiring, with the aid of big pharma, to push dangerous chemicals inside us as a way of earning money.
You have basically put yourself in a position in which it doesn't matter how many research papers are published supporting the safety of vaccines, you will never be open to accept them as evidence against your position. If this is true, you'll probably never reconsider your stand.
Maybe when Oprah decides to back-up vaccination you'll be convinced. But in the meantime, I hope your position won't affect other human beings surrounding you.
Posted 6 months ago # -
gnosis
Memberooo look out everybody...I might be a danger to the "herd" because I wont get flu vaccines.I should know that big Pharm and government would never conspire to push dangerous chemicals inside our bodies to earn money...how silly of me,I don't know what I was thinking.
I'll take off my tinfoil hat and go watch Oprah now and listen to the other experts on TV after I get my flu shots,mercury fillings and drink some fluoride laced beverages(for healthy teeth) to go with my 6-11 servings of heart healthy whole grains as recommended by the g'ment who only wants to take care of me and my family.Posted 6 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
Membergnosis, right now I just hafta say, what a misnomer. I'm not sure how much of that last post is snark, but many of those beliefs are not based upon knowledge, but on superstition.
Do you know how "they" came up with the idea of flouridating water? Because all the crackers here in central Florida had very few cavities despite a horrid diet way back when, post WWII. See, it's natural!
Posted 6 months ago # -
gnosis [noh-sis]: knowledge of spiritual matters; mystical knowledge; intuitive apprehension of spiritual truths, an esoteric form of knowledge sought by the Gnostics
Sorry, I'm probably a complete jack@ss for posting this, but I couldn't resist. Speculative contemplation is suitable when applied to existential matters, but not so much when applied to real world situations. At least with religious and spiritual matters one is able to hide behind the disprovable nature of superstitious assertions about the afterlife, higher powers, or whatever mystical phenomena float your boat. Even speculation about real world situations is fine as long as you clarify it as rumination and nothing more. However, when proffering factual reality, be prepared to support your claims with QUALITY evidence. Otherwise, you are guilty of spreading the disease of arrogant ignorance which plagues our society.
Posted 6 months ago # -
bcreager
MemberI guess quality evidence is subjective:
Fluoride Toxic:
http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/where-the-yellow-went.html
http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/shamesfluoride.htm
http://www.wholywater.com/fluoride.htmlBTW, where are those links to long term studies that vaccines are good? Be sure its QUALITY evidence!
Also, people seem to assume that if you refuse vaccines, its because your think it causes autism. I can't speak for everyone else, but that is not my reason.
I still find it quite ironic that folks can deny the accuracy of the gov't established food pyramid, and then turn around and shallow everything the gov't tells you about every other aspect of your health. There have been more $ and studies spent on food/diet/nutrition research then any of these other topics that we are discussing (vaccines, fluoride, etc)
And for the record, gnosis I'm with you on the fluoride and just about everything else "they" saw is good for me. All met with a health dose of skepticism.
-bcreager
Posted 6 months ago #
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