Vaccines
(125 posts) (30 voices)-
Maleficarum
MemberSeanBissel: Dont get me started on tetanus shots. Did you know that within the last 10 years, the pharmaceutical industry released "contaminated" tetanus shots that contained the same chemical used to sterilize sexual predators in prison. Somehow, that does not seem like a harmless accident.
HPV Vaccine information:
http://vran.org/in-the-news/hpv-human-papilloma-virus-cervical-cancer-vaccine-mercks-gardasil%C2%AE/
Posted 2 months ago # -
SerialSinner
MemberThere is a difference between staying informed and open about new data regarding the risks behind vaccines, and rejecting vaccination all together.
I think that the uncertainty about vaccination is, in the vast majority of cases, tremendously counterbalanced by the potential benefits it brings.
Skepticism is also, imo, a very misused word.
On Skepticism: http://tinyurl.com/mh6wwu
Overview of the issue: http://tinyurl.com/la2mjy
"The 14 studies": http://tinyurl.com/l56uqj
Analysis of the 14 studies: http://tinyurl.com/ctly3h
More:
http://tinyurl.com/lg7de4
http://tinyurl.com/nj2hug
http://tinyurl.com/ozkvpePosted 2 months ago # -
All I've gotta say is that we'll never know 100% about anything, and that's why we're always learning.
All we can do is do the best with the info we have.
That being said...
I've been to a couple of the concentration camps in Germany.
Sure seemed pretty real to me... Pretty disturbingly real.
-SeanPosted 2 months ago # -
bcreager
MemberNot saying the holocaust didn't happen, just that there is an interesting and thought provoking counter point to it. This isn't the forum or the thread to discuss that or these conspiracy theories (which I find fascinating):
- Oil is actually a renewal resource
- Global warming is a farce
- The Federal Reserve should be audited
- The housing market isn't at the bottom yet
- Kenneth DeLay isn't really dead!-bcreager
Posted 2 months ago # -
dragonmamma
MemberMy opinion is pretty much exactly like Pellegrina's. I had homebirths, anti-circumcision, extended breastfeeding, homeschooling....but I got my kids vaccinated with the MMR and DPT shots.
I live near Sebastopol, which is sort of a hippie community in Sonoma County, California. They mostly don't vaccinate, and every couple of years they have another outbreak of measles or whooping cough. I know a mom who's son has seizures caused by the lack of oxygen when he had whooping cough.
It's all about the risk/benefit ratio, and I believe the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risks. But even though their lack of vaccinations puts my kids at greater risk, I'm still very uneasy about taking away a parent's choice to do as he/she sees fit.
Posted 2 months ago # -
Dragonmamma,
Let me derail this thread even more than we've already done! :)
My wife's dad spent a lot of time in Sebastopol, and now has a home in Tehachapi. (I know what you're sayin about the hippie community :) But it sounds like a cool place!
I wanna visit Tehachapi some day. Sounds pretty interesting.
-SeanPosted 2 months ago # -
Tarlach
MemberPeople who do not vaccinate their kids against serious illnesses are not just jeopardizing their own kids lives, but potentially many more in the future.
Why not just do you part to eradicate the diseases? Then no one else will need to be vaccinated in the future.
Not immunizing against serious disease is selfish and irresponsible. I wouldn't wish any of the diseases on these peoples kids, but they are the ones gambling that 'it won't happen to MY kids'.
While these diseases still exist, it IS happening to someones kids. What unique powers do you kids have that makes them immune? Oh yeah, that called immunisation.Posted 2 months ago # -
kuno1chi
MemberI'm not even sure that I should participate in this thread, as it seems to be mostly about vaccinating children, and I have no children.
But I am a Risk Manager by training, and to me everything is a Risk/Benefit equation.
I was a Guinea Pig in the great Swine Flu tests in the 1970s, and almost croaked as a result, along with 50 of my fellow student volunteers. They never DID tell us what was wrong with the vaccine my group received...
I never, ever get the flu, and if I did, I would be okay. So I will not be partaking in the newest flu vaccine.
But I COULD conceivably die from typhus, yellow fever, and tetanus... so I am vaccinated against those (I travel). i have also been blessed by my parents, who gave me polio, diptheria, measles, and assorted normal childhood vaccinations, as those could have killed me, too.
Learn all you can about risks and benefits, from many independent source, not one web site. Use your brain---make your decisions.
Posted 2 months ago # -
bcreager
Member"While these diseases still exist, it IS happening to someones kids. What unique powers do you kids have that makes them immune? Oh yeah, that called immunisation. "
Could you please list the vaccines that give 100% immunity to diseases? If not 100%, then what percentage of immunity does one get from a vaccine?
Also, why don't we use the BCG in the US, its the most widely used vaccine in the world? That seems selfish and irresponsible. Why don't we vaccinate for Malaria, it kills more people then flu? Again, seems selfish and irresponsible.
-bcreager
Posted 2 months ago # -
Maleficarum
MemberTarlach,
which diseases am i not participating in the eradication of?
Let us take a look at the wiki entry for Measles...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles
According to this site, death from measles is a 3/1000 proposition in developed countries.
"The measles vaccine can destroy the protective sheath covering the nerves, brain, and spinal cord. The onset of autism after the MMR vaccine has also been reported. According to a study conducted by the World Health Organization (WHO), chances are about 14 time greater that measles will be contracted by those vaccinated against the disease than by those who are left alone. Between 61% - 90% of the measles cases occur in previously vaccinated children."
from: http://www.know-vaccines.org/faq.html#4
This web site actually cites the CDC and the WHO as primary sources of these statistics.
Posted 2 months ago # -
Tarlach
MemberYou think measles the measles vaccine is a joke?
Measles is described by the World Health Organization (WHO) as one of the best known and "most deadly of all childhood rash/fever illnesses".
It is a highly contagious, acute, vaccine-preventable, viral disease that can lead to serious complications and death
The claims of autism have been disproved.
Health officials say 95% of children should receive MMR so that vaccination programmes are effective, but take-up rates in the UK stand at 82%.
Many parents were put off from vaccinating their children with MMR after research linked the vaccine with autism.
Concern over the jab was sparked by a paper published in The Lancet in 1998 by Dr Andrew Wakefield.
But a more recent study in the same journal concluded there was no evidence of a link between the jab and autism.
Immunisation rates fell as low as 80% in the wake of the scare.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/4871728.stm
The vaccine saves lives.
The death rate from measles in Africa dropped by more than 90 percent between 2000 and 2006, the World Health Organization announced, describing it as a "spectacular" improvement brought about by a vaccination campaign that combined the know-how of global public health officials with a large dose of private financing.
- from 396,000 deaths in 2000 to 36,000 in 2006
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/30/world/africa/30iht-measles.1.8539895.html
Measles is highly contagious - 90% of people without immunity sharing a house with an infected person will catch it.
If the death rate is 3/1000 - that means for every 333 kids that get measles, one dies. You like those odds for your kids do you? Especially with the rates of infection rapidly rising...
From Wikipedia:
Indigenous measles were declared to have been eliminated in North, Central, and South America; the last endemic case in the region was reported on November 12, 2002, with only Northern Argentina and rural Canada, particularly in the provinces of Ontario, Quebec, and Alberta having minor endemic status. Outbreaks are still occurring, however, following importations of measles viruses from other world regions. In June 2006, an outbreak in Boston resulted after a resident became infected in India, and in October 2007, a Michigan girl who had been vaccinated contracted the disease in Sweden.
Between January 1 and April 25, 2008, a total of 64 confirmed measles cases were preliminarily reported in the United States to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the most reported by this date for any year since 2001. Of the 64 cases, 54 were associated with importation of measles from other countries into the United States, and 63 of the 64 patients were unvaccinated or had unknown or undocumented vaccination status.
By July 9, 2008, a total of 127 cases were reported in 15 states (including 22 in Arizona), making it the largest U.S. outbreak since 1997 (when 138 cases were reported). Most of the cases were acquired outside of the United States and afflicted individuals who had not been vaccinated.
By July 30, 2008, the number of cases had grown to 131. Of these, about half involved children whose parents rejected vaccination. The 131 cases occurred in 7 different outbreaks. There were no deaths, and 15 hospitalizations. 11 of the cases had received at least one dose of the measles vaccine. 122 of the cases involved children who were unvaccinated or whose vaccination status was unknown. Some of these were under the age of one year old and below the age when vaccination is recommended, but in 63 cases the vaccinations had been refused for religious or philosophical reasons.
The rise is due to unvaccinated children (and those who were vaccinated probably wouldn't have contracted it if it wasn't for exposure to unvaccinated kids).
Last year HPA research showed that, without a wider uptake of the MMR vaccine, there was a real risk of a large measles epidemic of between 30,000 to 100,000 cases, the majority in London.
Earlier this week, researchers warned that hopes of eradicating measles in Europe by 2010 were in jeopardy due to poor vaccination rates in a handful of countries including Britain.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/jan/09/measles-record-numbers
Posted 2 months ago # -
He he he young earth creationists... once apon a time I was one of those.
Now on the topic of vaccines. I have no children but I have 5 younger siblings, 4 of whom are not vaccinated and one of whom is only vaccinated until two years old. I myself was vaccinated until the age of five, if I recall correctly.
I suffered no long-term advsese reactions to being vaccinated, but I DID catch measles AND mumps (I got MMR), and not from my unvaccinated siblings either (not born yet). I got violently ill after the MMR vaccine (according to my mother).But one person is not any example of anything.
Most children do not suffer from being vaccinated. But most children don't die from catching measles either. I'm not actually sure if we vaccinate for polio, I was under the impression that polio was nearly erradicated as a disease in the western world.
If I lived in africa I would be getting vaccinated for everything! And I would vaccinate my children if I had any. Heck if I lived in a poor area of my own country I would definitly vaccinate my children.
Due to the fact I live in a rich country, with great medical care, and by the time I have children I will be relativly affluent and able to provide a good level of sanitation and nutrition, I would have to seriously weigh the risks of vaccination against the low risk of death from diseases in my country and in my social position. Vaccines DO cause harm, and some diseases DO kill. I would have no problem at all about vaccination if they were not full of heavy metals and other posions. I am not anti-vaccine, but I am anti-posioning my potential children and myself, especially at important stages of brain development.
If I had to travel I would get vaccinated because the risk of vaccination to an adult is not great. The risk of vaccines (heavy metals) on the developing brains of infants is another story.
Posted 2 months ago # -
gnosis
Memberchildren in this country are severely over-vaccinated and the statistics show it in various illness.Tetnusx3 chicken pox x3 combo vaccines...kids get about 20-30 now I had about 8 vaccines with only 2 severe reactions as a child requiring surgery to remove golf ball sized lymph nodes.Other countries give around 8 and some countries administer only after the child is 2 years old,in USA they give a Hep b when the child is a few HOURS old WTF!!!
What about tuberculosis,rocky mt spotted fever,cholera,yellow fever?These diseases are rare now yet there have never been vaccines for any of these yet they were rampant when the vaccines were mass produced for polio,mumps,measels ect.
SO we attribute their decline to modern sanitation and the other diseases declined due to vaccines?Posted 2 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
Membergnosis brings up a good point, that of moving from Yes-No to vaccines to knowing what is too much - or not enough. Maybe the US system isn't too much, just because "other countries" do less doesn't mean that is correct, either. OTOH, maybe it is, or maybe there are environmental and genetic factors that should weigh in on the decision making process.
I'm sure there are some good answers out there, but between habit, $$$$, and educating doctors better, it's a slow road to change.
Posted 2 months ago # -
chocolatechip69
Membererik.cisler, you are very rude.
While I don't have children either, I'm capable of understanding both sides of those who choose to vaccinate their kids and those who chose to opt out.
By the way, who the hell is denying holocaust here? Point it out please.
My boyfriend collects books about WWII and has quite a few very interesting ones about Nazi's and Holocaust, including the original Mein Kampf, so believe me when I say that I read my share of books on this issue. However, it does not mean that it should restrict me from being curious about learning what theories are out there and how they are explained.
Just because I read the Bible does not mean that I agree with it, and the opposite holds true as well.It seems to be that majority of people who found their way to this web-site are pretty open-minded, right? So why in the world there's so much "It's my way, or the highway" vibe in this topic?
Posted 2 months ago # -
Nick
MemberI agree that everyone should check out the ingredients on vaccines, and shop around for the best one. Or maybe even delay until children are slightly older to administer them. Fine. But what I'm hearing is textbook tragedy of the commons. A lot of 'Oh, well, if I were in Africa, I'd totally get my kids vaccinated.', which aside from smacking of African-homogeneity-syndrome and racism, essentially states that the only reason you don't get your kids vaccinated is because the rest of us are vaccinated and you don't anticipate them coming into contact with too many disease carriers.
The way you can detect whether a behavior results in a tragedy of the commons is to consider the consequences if everyone did it. The original example is everyone grazing their flock on the town common, but murder, theft, toxic waste dumping, etc. also fit into the mold. If no one got their kids vaccinated, you all have admitted that disease would run rampant (as in 'Africa') and you'd feel compelled to get them vaccinated.
If this wasn't immediately obvious to you, consider tracking down your economics and history teachers and letting them know they suck.
Perhaps see your English teacher as well, since apparently you're willing to use apostrophes when totally uncalled for (why you wouldn't vaccinate despite considering vaccines unnecessary, I do not know). Possessive pluralizing makes baby Grok cry.
There's such a thing as being so open minded you brain falls out. Perhaps all of you are simply new to the Internet, and have not yet figured out how to ascertain the credibility of various sources, and haven't long ago come across most of the cranks, as those of us who were online before there was a web have. In that case, you may want to go start reading about Dolce Base, chemtrails, HAARP, Queen Elizabeth II's true reptilian nature, massive underwater city ruins (definitely not grid-shaped sonar artifacts, oh no). You'll get hours of entertainment.
If you care to deny the holocaust or imply that Edward Jenner's work was just placebo effect, you'll get a similar "my way or the highway" from me as you would if you told me the orbits of the planets are not concentric around the sun, the moon landing was faked, or that pure water can have a memory of previously contacted substances.
Seriously, the Primal Blueprint is based on rational examination of the facts and research about our nutrition and habits in the past, and their correlation with health and fitness. That may make it somewhat of a fringe idea, but still a fringe idea supported by the science and evolution, and certainly not an idea that by its fringe-ness is a natural partner for autism truthers and holocaust deniers.
Posted 2 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
MemberYou are SO right, Nick.
The point you are trying to make of if we were "in Africa" is exactly where we "were", right here in the good old USA 50-100 years ago. Rampant disease, quarantined homes, summer polio. death by diarhhea. People have forgotten that that was life in the US prior to vaccines.
If someone can get away with not contracting one of those deadly illnesses today, it is only because of the millions who have been vaccinated. But our OP doesn't see that, if I understand him correctly.
We are in this thing called society pretty much interconnected or we are not. The evidence supports the former.
Posted 2 months ago # -
lcme
MemberI completely disagree with your choice to not immunize your children. Unfortunately the research that raised the scare was all bad science. A little something called "false-positives." They were looking for an RNA virus but were detecting a DNA contaminant!! Google Stephen Bustin and "Minimum requirements for quantitative PCR." All this increase in awareness of proper scientific PCR controls is from this vaccine issue.
I also completely agree with other posters who talk about life expectancy and vaccination. If you are still able to I would highly recommend ensuring that your children are protected from these dangerous and debilitating diseases.
Posted 2 months ago # -
There’s a really great Dr. House quip on vaccinations involving a young mother and child and her refusal to vaccinate. I know it’s not reality, but it sums up most of my opinion on natural living vs. vaccination.
I was vaccinated as a child with the various standards (but not chicken pox…that one didn’t come until after I’d had it). Before college, I got a meningitis vaccine. I’ve received two flu shots in my life, only while living at home with one parent who is severely asthmatic. I’m well aware there are side effects with vaccination, but I agree with the previous posters to do your research and analyze your risks. Having two close relatives near death and put on strict long-term bedrest in their childhood from various (now vaccinated) diseases (mumps, whooping cough), I’d rather err on the side of caution. As an adult who is exposed to some dangerous situations in being involved with rescue operations / first responder situations you bet I have a current tetanus shot. I also am adamant about wearing protective gear and using extreme care in ANY chance of blood-borne pathogen infection. It’s not something to be taken lightly, IMO.
Now…Do I receive flu shots? No. Did I sign up for the HPV vaccine? No. Too may reported side effects and problems. If I travel to a “warning” area for work (i.e. South America) will I prepare myself by getting vaccinated? You bet your ass I will. I can certainly keep my immune system prepared for common ailments but a serious infectious disease? I’m not taking my chances. I’ve had few (if any) ill effects from vaccines.
I’m all for prevention whenever possible. My arguments with the medical and pharmaceutical industry lie in the realm of “treatment,” especially our heavy dependency on antibiotics.
Posted 2 months ago # -
lcme
MemberI am so frusterated at people in this post spouting facts with no backup eg "some interesting research that vaccines aren't really the reason we have less disease, better sanitation is." What? Where is this study? Who funded it? What kind of controls? I don't even think that this could be possible to study as it would have to be an EXTREMELY long term study.
You guys all need to get your butts on to google scholar and pubmed. Not random websites and wikis that give unsupported hooey.
Posted 2 months ago # -
bcreager
Memberlcme: Great questions, but it goes both way
Show me a long term study about the benefits of vaccines. Who funded it (big pharm, the gov't)? What kind of controls? Like you said, how can a study like this be possible as it would be EXTREMELY long term. We've barely been vaccinating for a single human lifespan...how do we know the long term effects?
Introduction date of vaccines:
Measles: 1963
Chickenpox: 1988
Diphtheria: 1921
DTaP: 1991
Hep A: 1995
Hep B: 1982
HIB: 1985
HPV: 2006
Flu: 1945
Mumps: 1968
polio: 1995
Rubella: 1965
Rotavirus: 1998source: http://www.vaccineinformation.org/
There have been some links to other sites that have good information about vaccines. If you choose to discredit that because they weren't funded by the CDC so be it. I tend to question ANYTHING that comes from the gov't or big pharm....but I guess that's just me
Another source:
http://putchildrenfirst.org/-bcreager
Posted 2 months ago #
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