Primal eating for children
(47 posts) (13 voices)-
Metasequoia
MemberI know Paleo eating is the optimal diet. I understand why & I feel best eating this way.
It makes sense to me that my little Paleos can thrive on this type of diet as well. But they're ALWAYS hungry.My oldest daughter will be 10 this winter. She's built just like me, lean & mean. Like me, she can eat and eat a lot. Unlike me, she has a tendency towards yeast issues. As a baby we both had thrush while nursing & she had frequent yeasty diaper rashes.
We're able to control it my not eating any sugar - at all. Occasionally, she'll have a slice of fruit. For instance, both she & my second daughter (she'll be 7 this winter) had a quarter of a pear each the other day. Within FIVE minutes, both complained of belly aches & had diarrhea. Then they were fine. My son (who will be 4 in March), was fine with his quarter, as was I.
So I think they're sensitive to sugar. My firstborn has had many incidents where she's been at a party & has eaten a bowl of fruit salad & either vomited or had diarrhea or both, within 10 minutes.
No biggie, we just avoid sugar, even in fruit form.I'm just trying to give the whole story here...
So I'm aware that carbs in general lead to sugar cravings & carb cravings. (I'm half way through Primal Body, Primal Mind - LOVE it!!)
I just have this block in my mind about completely cutting high carb foods from the kids' diets.
Once in a while (maybe once a week), I'll cook some jasmine rice in homemade bone broth with a big strip of kombu & serve it with raw butter & sea salt. They're so much more satiated after having this with their meat & veggies.
Or, maybe a small potato each, loaded with raw butter.
I seem to react to such high food carbs depending on how my adrenals are doing at the moment. I've always been able to eat a little bit of my rice cooked in this manner. But if I eat even a spoonful of white rice at a restaurant, it's heart palps, dizziness & sweating immediately. I assume it's the lack of fat combined with it that accounts for this.So the consensus is, rice is a grain. I know it's super high in carbs. So are potatoes - but they're also tubers...not grains.
How low carb can I go with my kids? They tend to go for animal protein, fat & veggies first & foremost, but they (especially my oldest), also like some carb. These kids can eat animal fat like you wouldn't believe. I swear they could live on scrapple & butter for the rest of their lives. (The scrapple we get is from pastured pigs & made with just buckwheat! sooo delicious.)
I'd love to hear from anyone who has any knowledge on raising "primal children."
Posted 4 months ago # -
Niklas
MemberIf young children are not extremely sensitive to carbs they can usually tolerate lot more carbs: i.e. LC parents who can't tolerante bananas have LC children who can eat two bananas a day without complaint.
So young children diet can be higher carbs without negative consequences.
BUT if the young children we're talking about are very carb sensitive with a tendency to irregular blood glucose, moodiness, depression, nightmares and so on then you can actually go very low without conseguence.
I have known hypoglycemic kids who couldn't eat more than 30 grams of carbs a day but grew healthy and without problem. Hypoglycemic kids have been following low carb diets even before they became fashionable.
For example Vincent was an 8 year old who would eat everyday a very LC diet of sardines, bacon, hamburger, cream cheese, chicken, salad, eggs and steak in order to control his hypoglycemia.Posted 4 months ago # -
SerialSinner
MemberNiklas you are advocating carbs in the diet of children because they seem to have more tolerance to them than adults? That makes no sense to me.
Matasequoia, your kids can perfectly thrive on an only-meat diet provided that your meat is free-range and organic. So a very low carb diet made up of good animal protein and fats, and salads should be perfectly fine, and probably the healthiest possible way to go.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Niklas
MemberExactly Sinner, as long as you're tolerant there's no reason to avoid extra carbs. I follow a primal diet but I still know people who are healthier than me on an high-carb diet with foods that I could never eat.
It simply works for them and I have no reason to believe their diet is harming them. I don't think carbs are unhealthy or pathological and don't believe much in the meat-only extreme and see no reason as to why someone who can tolerate extra carbs shouldn't have those extra carbs or couldn't even benefit from those extra carbs.
Posted 4 months ago # -
I just read the title as "eating children is primal...." and well, I guess if you captured them from some other tribe........
SS, certainly agree, long term ingestion of carbs has nothing to be gained from it! Not to put an absolute measure, but I can see no harm in existing day to day on an average intake of sub 30/40g (just my impression) from limited veggie sources.
In all the reading I've done, some high/moderate level of carb intake is implicated in so many degenerative diseases! Not to be paranoid, but why eat with the upper boundary in mind? I aim for the lower.
Raising a child from cradle to teen on the best Primal foods possible seems to be ideal. These are the formative years, literally the skeletal, muscular, endocrine, neurological health will be set by what they eat now. It sets them on a course for long term compliance as well. Give them the best you can, not just what they seem to tolerate.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Metasequoia
MemberI have to agree with SS & Acmebike too, sorry Niklas!
Niklas, have you read Primal Body, Primal Mind? It's an excellent book, rather new.
The author promotes hardcore low carbing. I haven't read anything about children in it yet, but I hope she touches on the subject.
I guess I can see the evils of rice. But potatoes? I know I feel the effect of potatoes, definitely too carby for my body. But I think Mark says tubers are okay. I think I just need to figure out some more filling sides for the kiddos. Piece of meat, non-starchy veggies drenched in butter & coconut oil are our basic meals (or stews), so if I could find something to fill in the blank, they might feel more full.
They're fine with a very low carb breakfast & lunch - it's usually dinner when they want MORE. Perhaps this has to do with their need for tryptophan? I also thikn that this might be the ideal time to eat more carbs, rather than earlier in the day.
My second daughter has trouble with dairy, or I'd offer cream every night. None of us eat gluten, or grains, really. Other than that, we don't have any known food allergies or intolerances. I have made things with coconut milk before - like with cocoa, stevia & a bit of gelatin, but I don't like using canned food because of the risk of BPA. I can only afford so much raw butter, or else I'd give them spoonfuls before bed. But at $11/lb, it's too costly.
Oh, and my oldest seems to have hypoglycemia issues too, not surprisingly. I think she craves carbs more than the other two because of her tendency towards yeast. All the more reason to really limit carbs.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Just thinking, on the veggie side of things, there are halfway points between "potato" and "cabbage".
What about sweet potatoes, winter squashes (pumpkin, butternut...), parsnips, beetroot...?
Posted 4 months ago # -
Metasequoia
MemberIs anyone familiar with Dr. Richard Bernstein?
In his book, The Diabetes Solution, he talks about which veggies are "okay" as far as creating a strong insulin response.
Beets are loaded with sugar, according to him - a no-no (though I ferment my beets & carrots with fresh ginger a la Sandor Katz.)
Also on the "no-no" list are:
carrots, corn (no kidding), tomatoes or tomato products, all beans (chili beans, chickpeas, limas. lentils, sweet peas, etc. - string beans & snow peas are okay), onions, except in small amounts, parsnips, potatoes & winter squash. But he says pumpkin is okay...hm.Posted 4 months ago # -
PaleoMom
MemberPrimal Body Primal Mind is an awesome book. However, I have come to the mind that what she is striving for in there with her very low carb approach is life extension (and health, of course) that is achieved by taking our bodies out of the growth state and putting us in the repair and regeneration state. This is great for an adult, however children still need to be in the growth state. I don't think they need high carbs but I don't think they should be limited to the degree that she recommends for adults either. Keto diets have been used in children to control epilepsy and some other diseases, but it has also been shown to slow down their growth. If they are getting lots of good quality animal fat and protein then I would allow their cravings to guide them a bit with the carbs. I agree with others that the potatoes and rice are probably not the best. I see behavior problems from them with my kids and stomach aches myself. Root veggies and squash is great though. My kids LOVE mashed butternut squash with loads of pasture butter in it. I think with using more paleo carbs your kids would still stay in a zone of being low carb but not so low that it affects their growth or keeps them hungry.
Good luckPosted 4 months ago # -
SerialSinner
MemberSome tubers and roots seem to be the lesser evils, because they where around during Grok times, have a lower glycemic index and appear have been consumed in significant quantities only as a last resort during meat-scarcity, which could have resulted in humans developing a tolerance to them.
Tubers and roots are starch storage structures in plants that don't offer any macro or micro nutrients that we can't get in much higher quantities and quality from paleo foods.
The above being said, they can be delicious, so consuming them sensibly and sporadically could be cost-effective in terms of quality of life.
But the fact still remains: they are a completely unnecessary addition to our diet. Unless we engage in unnaturally strenuous physical activity like a triathlon, for example.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Metasequoia
MemberThanks for chiming in, PaleoMom.
I often cook winter squash in homemade bone broth & add some cinnamon & nutmeg. Once I serve it, I top it with a big gob of raw butter & some Celtic salt. *yum*!
I think I need to make that tomorrow...
Carb comparisons:
sweet potato (114 grams) 24g carb, 7g sugar.
white potato (138 grams) 29g carb, 2g sugar.
long white rice (158 grams) 45g carb, 0g sugar.
butternut squash (205 grams) 22g carb, 4g sugar.
acorn squash (205 grams) 30g carb.
spaghetti squash (155 grams) 10g carb, 4g sugar.A sweet potato & a white potato seem pretty darn close in carbs, don't you think? (I couldn't find *exact* measurements for comparison, but they're fairly close.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Niklas
MemberI have a faulty blood sugar metabolism and check often with my glucometer the effect of foods on my BG.
Most of the veggies prohibited by Bernstein don't do anything for my BG: carrots, beets, turnips, tomatoes, string beans, squash, onions, mushrooms. I post on a diabetes support forum where the majority of people got their blood sugar under control without going to the extremes advocated by Bernstein. In fact there are people there who had their blood sugar raising or becoming instable for following Bernstein diet.Rachel and Albert Matesz are the author of a paleo nutrition book called "The Garden of Eating".
They maintains health and leaness even eating potatoes everyday. So your mileage may vary but the more I read of people experience with different diets the more I realize there's no universal better diet for everyone, just general guidelines.I wouldn't read too much into the effects of ketogenic diet for epilepsy in kids because the diet used was/is extreme low in protein and based on refined saturated oils.
The all-meat diet has apparently the highest drop-out rate of any diet. On the active lowcarb forum there are countless people who add to add carbs back to their ZC diet because they started feeling extremely sick. For example a young woman stopped tolerating an all meat diet as her blood sugar was always in the 50 and couldn't be raised no matter how much meat she ate.
Only adding starches back recovered her and made her feel better.She was a believer but you can't even ignore the evidence of what's happening in your body.
Her own words: "I love meat. It's easier for me to live on nothing but meat. I felt wonderful for a long time and lost a lot of weigh but now I feel like shit if I eat that way. It's not because I'm afraid of fat, it's not because I don't like meat, it's not because I can't live without carbs, it's because I feel like shit when I eat close ZC. I have no reason to be against it, but my body just doesn't like it anymore, though it used to love it. No amount of "opinions on paper about how meat has everything you need" is going to change a legit human experience"The all-meat diet is a whim based on anecdotes and speculation and clinically we have never seen evidence of the diet supporting health in the western world for at least three generations. I wouldn't play with the health of a child just for a stubborn ideology.
ZC simply provides glucose from protein which you may as well get from carbs. And I can still appreciate the aristotelian logic that reducing carb intake for health is by no way an acknowledgement that carbs are bad. Mature mother milk (for when the baby is older) is like 38% carbohydrates.
Posted 4 months ago # -
SerialSinner
MemberFor example a young woman stopped tolerating an all meat diet as her blood sugar was always in the 50 and couldn't be raised no matter how much meat she ate.
The all-meat diet is a whim based on anecdotes and speculation ... I wouldn't play with the health of a child just for a stubborn ideology.
ZC simply provides glucose from protein which you may as well get from carbs.
Mature mother milk (for when the baby is older) is like 38% carbohydrates.
Niklas you evidently do not get what Paleo nutrition is really all about.
Posted 4 months ago # -
PaleoMom
MemberSerialSinner-
Here is a link to that study. I fear that if it had continued the results would have shown more significant growth stunting. It says that a small amount was shown at 6 months and then larger changes by 2 years. I think that may have been the length of the study.(scroll down for the abstract)
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=E604ABB4781CA5C2F713BB6708DB25D3.tomcat1?fromPage=online&aid=128845Posted 4 months ago # -
SerialSinner
MemberPaleoMom, thanks a lot for the link. I wish I had access to the composition of the diets, as low carb is not necessarily equivalent to paleo. Plus very young children should ideally feed from breast milk. So I'm thinking that they might be feeding very young children with low-carb formula?
Don't quote me on this one, but I wouldn't expect newborns to experience ketosis due to the carb concentration in breast milk.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Niklas
Member@SerialSinner
can you argoment your statement?
how reporting negative experience of ZCers, promoting a reduced carb intake without demonizing carbs and having doubts about a diet which is the opposite of what the author of the site of this forum promotes is not getting what Paleo nutrition is really about?Posted 4 months ago # -
Metasequoia
MemberI have Garden of Eating - I really like that book. They came out with a "dessert" book not too long ago. Does anyone have it? I sort of feel like we might be better off not getting it, but I don't know what's in it. I can't even eat muffins made from ground coconut & pumpkin seeds sweetened with banana without getting the sweets cravings.
And I'm an extended-breastfeeding believer. My son will be 4 in March & won't give it up - he knows what's good for him!
Posted 4 months ago # -
PaleoMom
MemberSerialSinner-
The study results for height was for 6 months and 2 years INTO THE STUDY, not the age of the children. The average age of the children when starting the study was 3 years 8 months old.
I remember reading about the keto diet of epileptic children someplace and the proportions of things were really extreme if I remember. I think it was like around 7 grams of carbs for the whole day and fat that was so high that I couldn't even imagine consuming that much without vommiting (and this coming from someone who eats about 80% fat on many days, often chugging warmed coconut oil straight). Sorry I don't remember the source. I don't know what was being done for that study, but it may have been similar. I don't think these kids are being fed frankenfoods that are low carb though, as those are not recommended for children with those problems either (or anyone!)
Posted 4 months ago # -
chima_p
MemberWow...
Since when where carbs not paleo?
Since when was all meat all the time paleo?
Unless you are eating hearts and livers and gall bladders and brains and stomach and intestines then your not even eating carnivore. How much vitamin C is in a flank steak? How much cancer fighting phtyowatchmacallits is in an egg?
Nik is not saying give the kid a Coke and a Ding Dong. (up here in Canada it would be a Pepsi and Jos Louis)
Telling somebody to give their kids a keto diet is retarded by the true definition of the word.
Carbs are not the enemy.
I recently found this great website you guys should check it out...
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/
Seriously WTF?
Posted 4 months ago # -
lil_earthmomma
MemberI try to feed my toddler boys plenty of protein, healthy fats, veggies, fruit and some starchy carbs.
No grains, very limited sugar.
They aren't really fans of potato, but like mashed califlower, LOVE butternut squash, spaghetti squash, pumpkin and sweet potato is hit or miss. I will be trying to add a bit of turnip and celeriac (both lower carb tubers) into the rotation. Cabbage is on the iffy list, but we've just recently been experimenting with it.
I think kids burn more energy so probably need higher carbs than grown ups. This is just my gut feel, no science to back it up. (hey at least I admitted it! lol) I don't think they should be put into ketosis on a regular basis.
Things that seem to be keeping them full are nut butters mixed with some CO (they like to dip fruit into this mixture) coconut flour baked goods, coconut milk green smoothies...
I've noticed that they tend to ask for food 5 or 6 times a day since we dropped the grains.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Niklas
MemberKids (small kids not teens that are physiologically adults) have a smaller stomach and hence when they eat less calorie dense foods and more veggies they will probably need to eat many times a day as they can't accomodate a thousand calories of foods in one sitting. Usually a junk food diet is more caloric dense than a primal diet.
Posted 4 months ago # -
animalcule
MemberSpeaking of the growth issue, I have to wonder if there is any advantage to children growing more quickly. What matters is the final height achieved - and we all know that studies of skeletons from before and after the advent of agriculture and widespread grain-eating show that hunter-gatherers had average heights greater than we do even now in all but a couple ethnic groups (the Masai and Dinka tribes in Africa, and the ethnic Dutch, are some examples).
I feed my dogs and cats a biologically appropriate diet (raw, whole animal parts and organ meats), and I know many breeders do as well. It is easily observed that puppies raised on this diet as opposed to carb-rich processed foods grow much more slowly and stay leaner, although they reach the same adult height and size as a dog fed kibble.
This is a huge advantage for larger and giant dog breeds, where overfeeding and too-rapid growth of puppies is always a concern...
Raw fed animals are easier to keep lean their whole lifespan as well, although calories do count (more for some than others). All my pets will gain noticeable weight if I increase the amount I feed them.
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight
BlockedKids are most likely not going to eat an optimal diet. Kids are just picky eaters. Also, there is a good chance a kid isn't getting enough calories if they are eating completely primal.
Kids have been eating grains for thousands of years. I am sure each and every one of us ate grains as children. Many of us also ate tons of sugar. We are all ok now. It is better to get your child enough calories while feeding them grains than it is to have your kid eating totally primal and not eating enough.
Anyway, if your kids can't handle a quarter slice of a pear, there is probably something wrong. Bring this up to a doctor, because pears are usually pretty mild and a quarter of a pear is pretty small.
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight
BlockedHonestly, I think keeping kids on a low carb diet is not very healthy. Your kids are probably craving carbs because they need carbs to grow.
Metasequoia, if your kids got sick off of a piece of pear, maybe it is just because their body isn't used to it. If you fed a vegetarian a piece of meat, they would probably feel sick too. It doesn't mean they have a problem with eating meat, it just means they aren't used to it.
When it comes to kids, stop being scared of grains. Even as adults you guys need to stop being scared of a little grains. And people need to CERTAINLY stop being scared of fruit. That phobia is absolutely insane and completely unfounded. If you really want to keep grains away from your kids (which most everyone will tell you is probably a bad idea anyway), make sure you feed them a lot of fruits and starchy vegetables to make up for it. Kids need carbs for energy and growth.
Posted 4 months ago #
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