Primal blueprint as asceticism?
(43 posts) (20 voices)-
bobbylight
BlockedI have actually read from directly from Mark that the primal blueprint is not about asceticism...but I feel the way I am doing it seems to be a very basic form of asceticism.
For those of you that do not know, asceticism is (according to wikipedia)
"Asceticism (from the Greek: ἄσκησις, áskēsis, "exercise" or "training" in the sense of athletic training) describes a lifestyle characterized by abstinence from various sorts of worldly pleasures (especially sexual activity and consumption of alcohol) often with the aim of pursuing religious and spiritual goals."
The reason that I say this is because I am basically eating the same thing every day. For breakfast I eat an apple and a handful of almonds. For second breakfast I eat 4 eggs fried in ghee, with onions, peppers, and sometimes tomatoes. For my next two meals I will basically eat a piece of meat with a large portion of veggies (9/10 times broccoli, cauliflower, and carrot mix) with olive oil on it. And I eat another couple handfuls of nuts throughout the day.
I have been doing this for a while now, and I feel great and I have shed off some pounds. But I am starting to tire of my meals a bit. I just had some dry pork and veggies with olive oil and I didn't really enjoy it. The lack of variety is actually starting to repulse me a bit. Foods that I was really liking before just taste OK, or even unappealing.
Anyway, today I was thinking about it, and I don't think this is actually that bad. Basically it all comes down to discipline. When I was eating unhealthy, food was for pleasure and only pleasure. Yes, obviously it was needed, but I didn't treat it like that. So I think the best way for me to make sure that I never go back to eating a horrible diet, I will change my view on food forever. Food is fuel, not something to be used for pleasure.
Some of you may disagree with me, and I will definitely end up enjoying certain things that I eat (even if I just learn to like them), but I feel like this approach isn't all that bad. Not only will I not be constantly thinking of eating fast food and cheat meals (as I seem to be now) but I will discipline myself.
What do you guys think of this approach to diet?
Posted 4 months ago # -
klcarbaugh
MemberUh, why can't it be both?
You can still eat primal and not eat the same thing every day. I usually eat the same things over and over but that is because I really like them and actually want them over and over.
The point of primal is to have a pleasurable life where we can enjoy nourishing food, enjoy plying outside, enjoy feeling good in our bodies and not have to worry about disease or sickness getting in the way of us living to the fullest. So, to answer the question: no. I don't think that this is form of asceticism. Enjoy "worldly pleasures" like steak and sex are part of the primal philosophy (just not at the same time).Posted 4 months ago # -
Indiscreet
MemberHmm, I don't know, it is for me. As an English kid growing up, I was fed a wide variety of food, including the traditional Sunday roast. I enjoyed the vegetables, but ate the meat because I had to. My favourite part was the roast potatoes, and my mother's awesome desserts.
I became vegetarian at 16 and didn't miss meat at all. It wasn't something I'd ever craved. At best, it was OK. At worse...well, it was something I choked down in order to get to the bits of the meal I enjoyed.
I dropped vegetarianism 5 years later when I was starting to get into lifting seriously and realised it was holding me back. I still preferred eggs, cheese and protein shakes but found tuna tolerable and ate a lot of that because it was cheap.
Years on, I've battled hard to drop carbs, but primal still has me basing my meals around the element I enjoy the least and avoiding the bits I love the most. Ascetism? Definitely.
Posted 4 months ago # -
I have to say that pre-primal I always felt deprived trying to follow a 'conventionally healthy' diet. Now that I've been on primal for a while, I do not, in the slightest, feel deprived.
The key is creativity in the kitchen I find.
And as for "abstinence from various sorts of worldly pleasures (especially sexual activity and consumption of alcohol)", HELL NO!
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight
BlockedI'm not sure if I explained this right to be honest. I realize that I can eat this diet without it being a basic form of asceticism, but I don't want to. I feel like the discipline that this is giving me is actually better in the long run. I believe that it is just part of a whole mindset. Personally, I am a spiritual person, and as the definition says, I am doing this with a spiritual goal in mind.
As for the alcohol and sexual activity, I have practically given up alcohol already. I do still drink on the occasion, but any time I drink more than a couple I always regret it. Also, I have an 11 month old son right now, and I never want to be caught in an emergency while drunk. As for the sex though, I don't think I'm going to be giving that up. My wife wouldn't be too happy about that one.
To be honest, I just feel like this basic asceticism is the first step in me becoming a better person. I constantly say things like "I should do this, or do that" but I end up not doing them because I am too lazy. I just think that the discipline this will bring me will help me out with these things.
Posted 4 months ago # -
SerialSinner,
I agree... :)
I think you could pretty much define *all* "modern diets" as asceticism under that definition.
You can pretty much eat the same thing every day, or choose not to.
It's your call.
Personally as soon as I did the "primal thing" I started cooking way better, and have much more interesting meals.
Pretty much anything "conventional" can be made primal. Just substitute almond meal and/or coconut flour for example.
I'm not going to ramble on.
But I feel like "going primal" forces you to actually eat more types of meals that you may find an a nice restaurant as opposed to out of a box, or can, etc...
In my opinion it's the bodybuilders and figure competitors who follow asceticism almost to a "T."
They only eat for the result, not for their pleasure.
OK done now :)
-SeanPosted 4 months ago # -
groquette
MemberI'm not the least bit spiritual, I've never had the slightest desire to drink alcohol, and there is absolutely NO way I'm going to do primal in any ascetic manner.
It's all about sensual enjoyment -- fatty foods, sunshine, leisurely exercise. When I feel up for it, I'll be adding "lift heavy things" and I can promise you that will be an enjoyment as well.
I can't figure out the link between "asceticism" and "better person". To me it's an oxymoron.
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight
BlockedI think that there is a HUGE link between asceticism and being a better person. It is just a foreign concept in the west. I think when you stop focusing on physical pleasures you will actually have time to think about your life and how it is going. Once your mind is not clouded by worldly desires, you can really start understanding who you are and what you want to do with the rest of your life. Also, I must admit I am not promoting asceticism in a classical sense. I am not saying renounce most food, shelter, and cleanliness, I am just saying that a little discipline in your life will actually help you to see things as they really are.
Posted 4 months ago # -
SerialSinner
MemberSean and Grokette, I completely agree.
bobbylight, I am not sure what definition of "better person" we are using here. Is it how successfully one adheres to an absolute arbitrary moral code?
To me, the happier someone becomes without harming others, the better person he or she becomes. And happiness is extremely related to feeling good. And feeling good is tightly linked to sensory pleasure.
I do agree on that the stimulation of the senses can interfere with our ability to think. But then, as long as we continue to focus our efforts on pursuing clear long-term goals and do not make important decisions while "sensorially intoxicated", sensory deprivation shouldn't be an issue.
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight
BlockedHonestly, I think my views on deprivation changed after reading Gandhi's autobiography. Gandhi would do all sorts of fasts and give up different things in his life. While reading the book I would always think "Why is he doing this, what does it accomplish?" But after a while, I started realizing that it can accomplish a lot.
Basically, in my opinion, to be a good person you should really try to be as nice and helpful to people as much as you can.
Basically, I think if you eliminate your physical desires, you will see things how they really are...its a pretty eastern concept but it seems to make the most sense.
Posted 4 months ago # -
JulieD
MemberFor me, becoming a "better person" involves actually giving myself a break from time to time. My life has been, and still is, filled with "I should be doing x, y, and z" and enforcing all sorts of rules that do nothing but make me miserable and feeling guilty in the long run.
My goal is to enjoy life and achieve wellness, and I think both go hand in hand.
Posted 4 months ago # -
animalcule
MemberIt's definitely not for me as I've never been one who got a lot of fulfillment/pleasure from food, or intoxicating substances. So eating to live, and not drinking etc is normal for me and what feels right.
But meat, cream, butter, eggs, fruit and veg, tastes much better to me than the crap I ate before (mostly because it was convenient). These are the foods I preferred as a child, before I started taking poor care of myself as a depressed teenager.
I also feel better in general eating this way, which gives me more pleasure in other aspects of life.
Posted 4 months ago # -
SerialSinner
MemberWe all have our own personal idea of happiness, because we are all unique.
Some people adhere to a borrowed, arbitrary moral code not because it makes them happy, but because of social pressure, guilt, early indoctrination, culture, peer-pressure, etc.
The idea of pursuing a collective goal based on adherence to a moral code that promotes self-sacrifice for a collective cause is attractive and usually a "social tacit default". We are told that the benefits will eventually come back to us, resulting in increased happiness on the long-term. I believe this is not true.
There appears to always be people behind arbitrary moral codes, and that these people are the ones who, coincidentally, reap the most benefits of the "collective causes".
When I think about socially-enforced moral codes based on abstinence, deprivation and service to others, I cant help thinking of two words: herd-mentality and mass-control.
I do, on the other hand, believe and strongly pursue reciprocal altruism as a path to happiness. But note the word "reciprocal" though. I think it is key.
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight
BlockedIs sacrifice for your own good really herd mentality? Well I don't think it is at all, at least not in the west. In America at least, society seems to push materialism and living in excess. People fantasize about being rich because they can buy all sorts of things they want. I think this is a lot more of a herd mentality than sacrificing for pleasure.
Anyway, I think that there are some spiritual truths out there that cannot be realized if you are focusing on quenching your thirst for physical pleasure. Basically it is a very hindu/jain/buddhist line of thinking. I think true happiness lies in putting a lesser emphasis on physical pleasures and more on exploring your own mind.
You will always have your mind with you, but you will be put in situations where alcohol, sex, and decadent foods are not available to you.
Posted 4 months ago # -
"Asceticism...describes a lifestyle characterized by abstinence from various sorts of worldly pleasures (especially sexual activity and consumption of alcohol) often with the aim of pursuing religious and spiritual goals."
The primal blueprint does not preach abstinence from worldly pleasures. In fact, the primal blueprint actually encourages worldly pleasures in its exclusion of sugars and grains. These substances are detrimental to the body and ultimately cause illness, discomfort, and a consequent lack of physical pleasure. Do not confuse abstinence from a savory poison with abstinence from a healthy luxury.
Would you consider abstinence from cigarettes to be asceticism when the physical pain resulting from the smoking far outweighs the mild pleasure of a nicotine rush? It is the same principle with sugar; the resultant suffering far exceeds the pleasure of consumption.
Also, I know of no explicit religious or spiritual goals.
Posted 4 months ago # -
groquette
MemberI think that there is a HUGE link between asceticism and being a better person.
Better person, huh? I find that qualifier to be incredibly difficult to pin down.
I think when you stop focusing on physical pleasures you will actually have time to think about your life and how it is going.
Au contraire, I believe that when I slow down and enjoy life's pleasures I actually have time to remember who I am, how it is going, and what I want to do with the rest of my life.
Once your mind is not clouded by worldly desires, you can really start understanding who you are and what you want to do with the rest of your life.
I think that maybe our lives are so completely different that I just don't understand your point of view — which is fair enough. I think that if asceticism helps you feel better about who you are, then go for it.
I, however, will abstain.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Raphael
MemberLast time I ate nuts (hazelnuts), they were possibly rancid and made me kind of sick. I got an itchy mouth/lips and a really bad headache. After that, I'm done with them. Not worth all the anti-nutrients and crap! I'll have them once in a while, sure, but I'll spend my money else where. :)
Posted 4 months ago # -
TaydaTot
MemberI don't think aestheticism is bullshit. Self discipline and delaying gratification is HARD. I think the biggest problem with mindless indulgence is that it is mindless. But if you behave contrary to your urges and impulses you learn a lot about yourself - often indirectly.
"Once your mind is not clouded by worldly desires, you can really start understanding who you are and what you want to do with the rest of your life".
This isn't bullshit regardless of how dismissive groquette is of it.
When something is ubiquitous it can be almost impossible to understand your relationship with it; like fish in water. But if you separate yourself from it you can often learn more about it through it's absence.
I am an undergrad and during a summer class this year called Media Addiction we abstained from media for one week - no TV, movies, recorded music, radio, printed material, internet, or video games. Of course I thought this was bullshit and I would just be annoyed for one week without learning anything because I don't even watch TV or play video games so of course I think I'm somehow more special than everyone else and all that bullshit. But I learned more about both myself and the media in that week then I think I have in years.
Anyways, you learn a lot about yourself and world through deprivation. And it doesn't have to be self-flagellation or celibacy or that bullshit that people are equating with asceticism. Just stuff to make you question your current behaviors and relationships with the world.
Anyway, heres a video of cute kids self-disciplining themselves.
7 min - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0yhHKWUa0g
Shameless media-ecology plug: Check out Neil Postman's "Amusing ourselves to Death".
Posted 4 months ago # -
TaydaTot
MemberI just want to add that I actually interpret Shine's example about sugar as supportive to the ascetic "ideal" (ideal isn't a good description but I cant think of better). I think considering its effects beyond the initial taste/convenience/accessibility benefits is pretty much a perfect example of taking a behavior and being conscious of more than just the immediate effects or pleasures obtained from it. And it's not like we are "depriving" ourselves, just being critical and applying foresight and perspective.
And bobbylight, I don't eat nuts either. They make me feel sick. I think it's the natural toxins or something.
Posted 4 months ago # -
SerialSinner
MemberI think the main issue is whether aestheticism leads to increased personal happiness or not. I find hedonism completely compatible with my pursuit and achievement of personal happiness.
Could aestheticism help me be happy? Maybe. But I don't see how.
Perpetual hedonism would appear to be impossible, so the windows of time lacking mindless indulgence (which btw can perfectly be pleasurable intellectually), if used properly, could perfectly allow us to stay on track and ensure a constant flow of happiness.
It's all about knowing what males us happy and pursing it the best way possible. If we don't know what makes us happy, moving out of our comfort zone could help. But doing that would be aligned with ensuring future bursts of mindless indulgence, so you could see it as one step back for two steps forward.
Some see people who "choose the hard way of life", deprive themselves from pleasure as a route to enlightenment, or sacrifice their lives for the happiness of others as "better people".
I don't think that's necessarily true.
Posted 4 months ago #
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