Lean but not ripped, what's my problem?
(42 posts) (18 voices)-
primal_dave
MemberI actually have a two part question:
Background:
I must admit that I've never been a heavy individual. I'm 5'9" and I think I've only ever maxed out at 140. Currently, I'm at about 130lbs. With that said, and I don't really know what my body fat % is, though I used an online guide (I don't know how reliable it was) that said my body fat was 23.5%.
I am not seeing any significant definition in my abdominal area, and it seems like the only fat on me tends to sit right there, but I can't figure out how to get rid of it. I've been trying to clear it away for years and can't figure it out.
I'm becoming more and more familiar with the the PB every day, and have been eating relatively low cab for the last 10 years, and within the last 2 months or so totally cut out the grains. My diet now consists of pretty much no processed foods aside from a handful of pretzels that I've had the last two wed nights at a friend's house. I also have a beer once in a while (brown ale, home brew). Other than that, I eat mostly green veggies (like Kale) with some kind of oil or other fat, some fruit, a fair amount of dairy for calcium and good 'ole meat.
I must admit I haven't kept close tabs as to the exact percentages of protein, carbs, and fats. However, I would say I have pretty good control over the foods I am eating. I think I am getting most of my carbs in the morning with breakfast at about 70 or so carbs between fruit, yogurt, and kale (I make a ridiculously delicious smoothie).
In the evening I eat a pretty big meal consisting of mostly meat and am pretty light on the veggies and I'm normally not hungry enough to eat more than that. Fat content ranges from on the lower side for dinner if I have the 90% lean ground beef to relatively high if I have something like, say, chicken wings.
Question:
The first part of my question is, what am I doing wrong? Seems like I should be able to trim whatever is left away, especially since it seems like I already have a high metabolism. My body is being stubborn.
Question 2:
Does it truly matter what kind of saturated fat I'm eating? What I mean is organic vs non-organic? I see a lot of posts of people with their fat intake at 70% of their diet. I'm just wondering if anyone is paying attention to whether it's organic or not?
Also, I tend to stick to olive oil, palm shortening, and coconut oil for fat, though when I make bacon I save the fat and slow cook it so that the bacon is soft and the fat is chewy (yum). Looking for other examples of fat because I'm wondering if I get enough in my diet?
Thank you in advance for any input, feedback, or suggestions you might have.
...oh yeah...GROK ON!
Dave
Posted 6 months ago # -
Mick
MemberI am not seeing any significant definition in my abdominal area, and it seems like the only fat on me tends to sit right there, but I can't figure out how to get rid of it. I've been trying to clear it away for years and can't figure it out.
I don't mean to be heretical but does "definition" matter that much? It does in bodybuilding circles, of course, but for the rest of us ...
And while one could talk about being "primal" - meaning like a primitive - that's not really what anyone's after, if he wants "definition". If you ever see a nineteenth-century photograph of a hunter-gatherer, you won't see sharply defined muscles on him.
(I find it interesting that the early drawings (16th-century) of Florida Indians do show the men with some definition. (The women by contrast are drawn in a very soft-looking way.) But since I've never seen a photograph that shows a North American Indian that looks like that, I take it that this was the way Renaissance artists thought one should draw males (and females). I'd guess it was influenced by Greek models.)
I suppose if people want to look like defined, why not? ... but It's not a problem not to. It's just a modern fashion, beginning with people like Eugene Sandow (but probably influenced from Ancient Greek statues, too). At some level you may need certain genetic potential to get it, too - for example, with some people the "belly" of the muscle is relatively long compared its total length.
I just think it's OK, if you're not defined there (or anywhere else). And you definitely don't want to be over-tight there either: if you are it tends to interfere with breathing.
The stomach can also tend to stick out more than it might purely on account of posture - if there's excessive curvature in the lower back, it looks larger than it really is. Best to wear totally flat shoes like moccasins (not even a "low" heel), so you're not tipped forward, which tends to cause that excessive curvature. See the diagrams here for how heels on shoes affect posture:
http://nwfootankle.com/files/rossiWhyShoesMakeNormalGaitImpossible.pdf
When standing, you can also sometimes think - think rather than do - of your weight doing down through your heels and your knees going forwards and away from each other. Imagining the tailbone dropping down might help, too. People often stand with the weight too much on the toes, and sometimes with knees actually locked out, too.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Tarlach
MemberEat more fat and drop the dairy. It will probably help to eat more and do some big strength exercises (squats, deadlifts, etc). Yes, I am talking about showing abs.
Grass-fed beef is one of the best fat sources. Lard and Coconut oil are ok and EVOO if you are desperate. Palm oil is bad news.
Posted 6 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
MemberI like Mick's perspective (as I usually do.) There's a difference, unfortunately, between fashion and what is healthy. I guess that's always been true, see corsets and tiny waists, boob jobs, etc.
There's also a reason for body fat percentages for men and women that are considered healthy. Super low BF is not healthy (and on women looks downright weird and unattractive, in my not so humble opinion.)
Appreciate who you are.
Posted 6 months ago # -
primal_dave
MemberYikes. Ask a simple question, get a psychoanalysis, hahaha.
Just so I am clear, I am happy with myself and my body. I am, however, always looking for improvement - constant improvement. There is never a point of "good enough", mainly because I am not convinced that there is a stopping point in growth in life, until you die.
As to the drawings and paintings, the same argument for "fashion" could be made there also. It was fashionable at one point to be "voluptuous" and at another it was fashionable to have that "Ethiopian" distended belly. So, perhaps this was reflected in drawings and paintings. I much prefer the Greek vision of man at his best.
With all of that aside, I appreciate the tips on the dairy. My problem is that I guess I'm not being creative enough in my sources of fat, because that's where a good amount of it comes from.
The beer, I have maybe once or twice a week. The fruit I tend to have every morning and don't normally eat fruit in the evening, just veggies and meat/fat where I can get it.
With the feedback I am getting, I am thinking perhaps that I need to dig up more suggestions for sources of fat.
As for exercises, I have mainly kept to bodyweight exercises. Maybe I used the wrong word "ripped". I don't think I am interested in "bulking up" or "hulking up", but lean and toned. Think Bruce Lee, not Lou Ferrigno
Still accepting suggestions and ideas :)
Thanks everyone!
Posted 6 months ago # -
jostle
MemberA couple things that might work based on your info.
Move your "big" meal to one of the earlier meals during the day.
Include a couple IF days during the week.
On workout days do not eat for a 2-3 hrs prior to your workout and 1-2 hrs post workout.
Get around 7-8 sleep every night.
I noticed my definition increased with doing IF and getting more sleep, so maybe that will help you out.
Also a good workout routine doesn't hurt, right now I'm doing the Crazy Eight Workout, http://www.justinowings.com/b/workout.php/turbulence-training-s-crazy-8-bodyweight-08, and just in the first week I can see a difference in my torso.
HTH
Posted 6 months ago # -
BigBeck89
Memberyour only 130 at 23% BF?
to start to see your abs you'd have to be at around 10% AT LEAST. that would put you somewhere at like 110lbs or something like that. And that's if you could hypothetically lose 100% fat and no muscle.
I really think you should forget about the abs(just for a while) and focus on adding more LBM.
hell if you really do have a fast metabolism then you'll probably be able to add weight and lower BF% at the same time
Posted 6 months ago # -
TaydaTot
MemberCan't say I can give any clear-cut diagnosis from just reading a couple text posts but here may be some helpful advice/tips. Your diet sounds pretty good but you could get even more nit-picky with it and see if that does anything. You could try going vlc (very low carb) or zc (zero carb) for a while and see if your body responds differently to that. Think of it as a miniature experiment. It's good that you finally cut out ALL grains. Try omitting the Yogurt. Yogurt has a fair amount of lactose even when unsweetened. So does milk. Occasional grain based snacks like pretzels and beer might be something to restrict further. Although primal, fruit is also a type of food that can be reduced to limit carbs.
Aside from diet, it is essential to actually be fit if you want to look fit. I think barbell training is great and often completely misunderstood and under-appreciated. Stronglifts 5x5 is a great program. And no, you won't turn into The Hulk overnight by doing it . Squats, dead-lifts, overhead presses and barbell rows are great exercises (in that order of importance). If you've never done heavy squats or DLs before expect to be pleasantly surprised by how your body responds.
Barbell complexes and circuit training (kettlebell type stuff), sprints and other interval work is great for fitness.
Posted 6 months ago # -
righetti
MemberI have to second bigbeck. Unless you are under 18 you are under weight. You need to start lifting heavy and eating more clean primal foods before you even think about trying to diet down.
-Use multi joint compound movements in the gym and focus on getting your numbers up. Higher numbers=getting stronger=more muscle(typically). I also like to have "core" days where I focus on performing stabilizing exercises to stregthen my core.
-Add more protein to your diet starting with grass fed red meat(bison is yummy) which is naturally high in creatine.
This is called a "clean bulk" in the bodybuilding community and you can google that term if you need more info.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Tarlach
MemberWhy is Palm Oil bad, Tarlach?
Palm oil products are made using milling and refining processes: first using fractionation, with crystallization and separation processes to obtain solid (stearin), and liquid (olein) fractions. By melting and degumming, impurities can be removed and then the oil filtered and bleached. Next, physical refining removes smells and coloration, to produce refined bleached deodorized palm oil, or RBDPO, and free sheer fatty acids, used as an important raw material in the manufacture of soaps, washing powder and other hygiene and personal care products. RBDPO is the basic oil product which can be sold on the world's commodity markets, although many companies fractionate it out further into palm olein, for cooking oil, or other products.
Tallow is just beef fat.
It should be pretty obvious which one is better for you!
Posted 6 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
MemberTarlach, I'm going to presume that some, or maybe most of the world's palm oil used for cooking is processed as you claim.
But I rather doubt all, or the oil wouldn't have it's red color from that betacarotene. Also, poor and primitive peoples don't have all that, but the CAN get the oil out by mashing and squeezing, just as has been done with olives for thousands of years. No chemicals need apply.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Tarlach
MemberThe red is probably food coloring to make it look like it 'should'.
Manual extraction of palm oil is not cost effective.
I found some instructions for making palm oil:
Boil the palm nut fruits until they are soft and cracking open. This can take up to 45 minutes depending on how many palm nut fruits you have. The flesh of the fruits should be soft and tender.
Grind the fruits with the mortar and pestle. Do not actually break the nut, but grind the palm nuts with the pestle so the juices flow out of it. You will have a big, mushy mess when you are finished.
Filter the palm nut mush through the cheesecloth. You can strain the juice back into the pot of water as long as there is not a lot of chaff floating in the water. If there is, use fresh water.
Boil the palm nut fruit juice. As you boil the juice, the oil will separate and float on the surface of the water.
Use a spoon to "scrape" the oil off the surface of the water. Ladle it into the airtight container.
Tips & Warnings
* You need a lot of palm nut fruits to make just a little palm oil. Be prepared to get only little results from a fair amount of work.Posted 6 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
MemberMan, I thought I was cynical! It's the betacarotene, dude! It's a universal trait of palm oil. And it would certainly be there with the processed described. Not much different than olive oil production except for the heating. And it wouldn't surprise me if they used to heat the olive mash, either.
Posted 6 months ago # -
primal_dave
MemberThank you everyone for the ideas and suggestions. This does, however, bring up a few more questions. And, I may need to clarify some things that I may have incorrect.
OK so, about the dairy, I think I could probably live without dairy, or at least mostly. My only problem is finding a good source of calcium and I'm hesitant to start popping pills when food is available to do the job. Any thoughts on that?
As for the palm shortening and coconut oils, I bought them from tropical traditions and to my knowledge they do it the old fashioned, mechanical way. So it is "processed" in the same way that I would process them at home.
About the Body fat %, as I said in my first post, I'm not sure that my calculations were correct. It was an Internet thing. I took various measurements including my waist, hips, wrists, etc. and punched them into a "calculator" and it spit out a number. If I flex, you can see *some* definition of abs, but I can still pinch an inch or so in the front and maybe an inch and a half on the sides.
In the end, I guess even though I'm describing all of this in terms of physical appearance, what I'm really trying to determine is: how do I get rid of the extra fat covering my stomach?
Perhaps I should be asking: Do I need to do this? Are there any negative effects of having this much fat on my stomach and if so what are they?
******************************************************
Aside from diet, it is essential to actually be fit if you want to look fit. I think barbell training is great and often completely misunderstood and under-appreciated. Stronglifts 5x5 is a great program. And no, you won't turn into The Hulk overnight by doing it . Squats, dead-lifts, overhead presses and barbell rows are great exercises (in that order of importance). If you've never done heavy squats or DLs before expect to be pleasantly surprised by how your body responds.
*******************************************************Thanks! Yes, I've done most of those before. I don't have anyone to spot me these days though. And, although I could join the "Y" or a gym, it's much easier for me to just use the spare room in my home (due to my working schedule). I may look into kettlebells, but as of now, I have a custom pullup bar in which I constantly attempt front tuck levers and other various insane gymnastic-type stuff along with regular chin and pull ups. I also run a mile or so a few times a week. Maybe I just need to concentrate more on the working out aspect?
How long do some of the more successful primal folks here work out?
Posted 6 months ago # -
Primalchild
MemberI've heard it said many times that grains (and also perhaps sugars and starches) pull calcium from your bones, so the average Joe needs a lot more than those who follow the PB. Eat your textured, leafy greens, lift heavy things, and you will be fine.
As for the fat on your stomach, you can't spot-reduce if that's what you're wondering. Men tend to accumulate most of their fat around their middle, so that is where the last of it will come off of.
Try incorporating sprints into your workouts instead of running. Do 6-8 sprints as hard as you possibly can for 20-30 seconds, or 100 meters or so if you prefer that way, resting in between just long enough to walk back to your starting point. When it comes to workouts, hard and fast is key. Supplement with lots of leisurely walking.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Chunster495
MemberI work out and lift heavy for about 25-40 mins 2-4 times a week, and do interval sprint training 1-2 times a week with a lot of just walking whenever I can get in about 2-3 hours a week.
Looking at your diet seems like you're okay in terms of what you eat...I'd say that you need to just make sure you eat about 1 g of protein for the amount of weight you want to become.... so like 140-150 in your case... and lift heavy and intense for about 30 mins to develop more lean muscle mass... if you can't get to a gym,.. you can still do them at home with full body weight movements between pullup/pushup/squat variations, along with adding some dumbells or elastic bands into the mix and get out and sprint to blast away that stubborn fat.
As primalchild said, the fat on your stomach will be the last to come off for guys...
Posted 6 months ago # -
MikeGP
MemberEat less.....
You have to eat below maintenance to lose fat. You can eat very healthy, but if youre eating over your maintenance level, you will gain weight. The primal blue print is great, and people "think" they can eat as much as they want and still lose weight, the reality is that people are eating less calories than they need, its just harder to overeat with primal food than it is with junk food. they eat more volume of food, but with less calories.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Jess
MemberHmm, I've been wondering about what Mike is saying here. Evidently, in a study partnered with Gary Taubes, particants maintained their weight levels with 3,000-8,000+ ("good") calories without additional exercise. I have yet to find this study though....
I was curious, do you guys find yourself eating LESS calories than you have before eating primal?
Posted 6 months ago # -
primal_dave
MemberSome interesting ideas here. I appreciate all of the suggestions. Now, this presents with with an interesting problem:
What I'm hearing is essentially..
1) I should examine my protein and fat intake and up them (most likely) while decreasing the carbs from the fruit and dairy.
2) I should be a bit more focused on my workouts.
3) Cut dairy out.
4) increase consumption of grass-fed meats.
and from the blog entries I remember
5) Eat lean cuts of meat, regardless of grass fed or not.
So, the problem starts with # 3 and #5 for me. I'm a bit confused it seems. How do you increase fat intake...indeed make it perhaps 60-75% of your dietary intake and simultaneously cut out dairy and meat fat? Did I misinterpret something?
By the way, when I say I eat dairy, I eat a little bit of cheese on occasion (blue cheese - my fav, some cheddar, and maybe mozz or gouda), and mostly yogurt, half-n-half, and heavy cream, and sour cream, and that's it.
I suppose I could cook everything in coconut oil or my virgin palm oil...it just seems very restricting.
Thoughts?
Posted 6 months ago # -
BigBeck89
MemberMikeGP did you even look at this guys stats!? telling him to eat less is just plain irresponsible. he doesn't have the weight to lose. if anything he should focus on gaining more LBM FIRST!
after you have a decent base of muscle then look at creating a deficient.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Chunster495
MemberI have to agree with BigBeck89... You're probably going to need to put on some muscle if indeed you're at around 23% body fat and weight 130lbs. I mean if you were to drop to like 10% body fat to become more ripped, you'd weigh about 110 lbs... and at 5'9"... you'd be one skinny anorexic looking dude... You're eating doesn't seem to be your major problem since you've already cut out grains and sugar... and your dairy intake is really not that much to impact you too negatively. I'd say just eat how you're eating, only increase it up and eat more of everything you're eating and workout intensely a couple of times a week adding in some sprints. If eating big meals is difficult,.. try to sneak in a couple of protein shakes and additional meals at various times to get in some more calories.
Posted 6 months ago # -
primal_dave
MemberThanks Chunster
Maybe i should try the protein shake thing for more calories or maybe force myself to eat more? It's incredibly difficult for me to gain weight, always has been. I usually just eat when I'm hungry and don't eat when I'm not. I definately don't starve, but maybe I'm still just not eating enough????
As for the body fat, yeah, I've no idea. It doesn't seem like I'm that fat but what do I know about doing these calculations? I just did the measurements. I just know I have a little extra that has been there forever and am finally (after 10 years) sick of it.
So now I have someone saying dairy = bad
then another saying dairy = OK.hahaha
What does everyone do for all the fat they eat? Are you folks drinking bacon grease for breakfast? hehe.
Posted 6 months ago #
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