It's official--I have osteoarthritis « Marks Daily Apple Forum

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It's official--I have osteoarthritis

(31 posts) (15 voices)

Started 7 months ago by pellegrina
Latest reply from Helen

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pellegrina
Member

So I just came from the rheumatologist, because even though I'm still relatively young (46), I have pretty severe pain in my hands and feet, especially after a waitressing shift. I never take anything for it, I just deal, but I thought it was important to rule out rheumatoid, which is a whole 'nother animal.

I've met some arrogant doctors in my time but this guy takes the cake. He basically blew off everything I said after I told him I didn't want to take daily doses of acetaminophen every day for the rest of my life. He wants me to take 4000 mg a day! I can feel my liver cowering in fear as I type. No WAY am I doing that. When I told him I didn't want meds, he asked, "Then why are you here?"

I asked if he knew of any patients who had successfully alleviated their systems with diet, and he said no, diet has absolutely no effect, and anyone who says otherwise is a quack. He said glucosamine supplements have no effect either.

He basically told me there's nothing I can do, and that it's only going to get worse, especially if I keep waiting tables. He said when it gets really bad I can come in for injections for temporary relief.

People, I am NOT ending up with a walker. I am NOT going out like that. Does anyone here have arthritis and have any tips on exercise or natural ways of alleviating the pain? I've read that tai chi might help.

By the way, I'm thin, fit, and look about 10 years younger than I am--unless you take a close look at my hands, which are already deformed and crooked.

Posted 7 months ago #
maba
Member

Pellegrina, I feel for you. But it's good that you decided to adopt the Primal lifestyle just in time. Hopefully the diet will cure what that arrogant Dr.'s medication will never do. I empathize with you because my mum is a statin user and though she doesn't have arthiritis, has joint aches too and I feel so helpless seeing her go through all those medications that don't offer any relief. And the physician in my family, ok I'm finally saying it, is too arrogant to listen to me.

Have you considered seeing a Naturopath? They try to cure ailments by letting the body heal on its own and with dietary changes.

Posted 7 months ago #
jostle
Member

This site actually has a lot of good home remedies for arthritis, http://www.home-remedies-for-you.com/remedy/Arthritis.html . Maybe one of the juice remedies will help to reduce the arthritis.

Posted 7 months ago #
dragonmamma
Member

In my opinion, the most crucial part of the primal blueprint for you to follow is the NO GRAINS rule. If you're gonna cheat, do it with fruit, or dairy, or chocolate, but not with grains! I think that's the most inflammatory part of a non-primal diet.

I do not have arthritis, but I do have a few old injuries, and the only time they bug me is when I have a fling with grains.

The only suggestion I have for exercise is to avoid hard surfaces whenever possible. Do what you're doing on top of a good exercise mat, whether it be pushups or jumprope or stretching.

Posted 7 months ago #
Catalina
Member

Sorry to hear that, but going Primal is a great start to reversing it. Check out any of Mark's articles on inflammation and Omega 3 supplements, and you might want to be particularly careful about staying away from the nightshades (eggplant, tomato, potato, peppers) and see how that makes you feel.

Posted 7 months ago #
SerialSinner
Member

Pellegrina, according to Wikipedia:

</"Up to 60% of OA cases are thought to result from genetic factors. Researchers are also investigating the possibility of allergies, infections, or fungi as a cause.

Other possible underlying causes of OA:

# Diabetes.
# Inflammatory diseases (such as Perthes' disease), (Lyme disease), and all chronic forms of arthritis (e.g. costochondritis, gout, and rheumatoid arthritis). In gout, uric acid crystals cause the cartilage to degenerate at a faster pace.
# Injury to joints, as a result of an accident.
# A joint infection, e.g. from an injury.
# Hormonal disorders.
# Ligamentous deterioration or instability may be a factor.
# Obesity. Obesity puts added weight on the joints, especially the knees.
# Sports injuries, or similar injuries from exercise or work. Certain sports, such as running or football, put undue pressure on the knee joints. Injuries resulting in broken ligaments can lead to instability of the joint and over time to wear on the cartilage and eventually osteoarthritis.
# Pregnancy
# Alkaptonuria
# Hemochromatosis and Wilson's disease

In your position, I would go 100% *Paleo* (not Primal). This is theoretically the best possible diet anyone can have, so if your condition can be reverted by changes in your diet, Paleo would be the way to go.

Best of lucks.

Posted 7 months ago #
pellegrina
Member

Wow, it was so great to come back and see so many replies already! This forum is great--probably the friendliest and most helpful I've ever been on. Thanks for the great advice, you guys.

Since I started the challenge on Monday I haven't had a single grain (and haven't really missed them). Wait--I did have a beer. That counts as a grain, doesn't it? Red wine, here I come.

I eat a lot of tomatoes and peppers, though. I never even heard about the possible problems with nightshades until I started reading this forum. I think I'll wait a couple weeks and see if cutting out grains helps, and if not--as much as it will kill me to give up my beloved Jersey tomatoes--I'll get rid of the nightshades, too.

I saved that natural remedies link, and I'll check back through Mark's archives for those articles. Thanks again!

Posted 7 months ago #
Helen
Member

I also have arthritis in my feet and they used to hurt 24/7. At times I could not get a good night's sleep because of the pain. I was desparate and intrigued enough to try what my personal trainer suggested. He suggested I try Eating Right For My Blood Type. I am B postivie. After 5 days of switching to eating for my blood type, I was able to sleep without pain. My foot pain is slowly getting better.

I am doing the 30 day challenge here, but with the foods that I can eat for my blood type. I had to give up eating chicken, tomatoes, avocadoes, coconut and cinnamon,among other foods.

I also have to watch my fruit intake. I try and limit my fruits to 2 or 3 a day.

Posted 7 months ago #
tinfoilgrrl
Member

I've heard good things about turmeric for pain/inflammation:

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1910028,00.html

http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/07/26/more-about-turmeric/

Posted 7 months ago #
SerialSinner
Member

Helen, as far as I know, there is no solid evidence whatsoever supporting the blood type diet.

Some research does suggest that nightshades are linked to arthritis though. If Primal doesn't work for you you could try going Paleo as well.

Posted 7 months ago #
Helen
Member

What kind of diet is Paleo?

Posted 7 months ago #
umuhk
Member

I have a form of osteoarthritis called spondylosis.

First things first: a lot of the information related to "arthritis" is going to talk about inflammation. Osteoarthritis isn't an inflammatory disease (although chronic systemic inflammation may be a contributing factor), so carefully evaluate how you want to modify your diet with that in mind.

No one (especially not your Dr. Bozo) really knows what causes osteoarthritis, although there are lots of theories. The mechanisms are pretty well understood, though; the cartilage breaks down for whatever reason, and the now-exposed bone surfaces undergo reactive changes as they rub together. This, understandibly, hurts like #$@^%.

I take paracetamol occasionally, when I'm having trouble standing up. I soak in a hot tub on a regular basis. I (try to) practice mindful moving, and manage my joint stress carefully. And I try to eat the right things for me.

Getting a pair of Vibram FiveFingers made a huge difference, more so than any diet changes, so in my case changing the way I move was a huge win. I don't know if you can do something similar to help relieve your pain, but don't underestimate the power of mechanical changes.

I eat enormous amounts of protein (and very few carbs), so to my mind I'm making it easy on my body to produce and maintain cartilage by giving it all the building blocks it needs. Whether that actually helps or not, I dunno. But not eating grains seems to make it hurt less, so I'm willing to go with that.

I applaud your resolve in not succumbing to osteoarthritis. Giving in to the pain and avoiding motion just leads to weaker muscles and ligaments, which only makes things worse. Sometimes it's a chore to move, but if my other choice is immobility, it's no contest. Keep moving (gently and mindfully -- yes, tai chi did help me), and keep your muscles strong and flexible. Make the most of the parts of your body that work!

Posted 7 months ago #
SerialSinner
Member

nice post umuhk

Helen, Paleo is the strict version of Primal:

basic info:
http://tinyurl.com/6xuqe
http://tinyurl.com/mcgjpv

More:
http://tinyurl.com/lfkxdo

There's a guy here in the forum called Tarlach who has been 100% Paleo for some years. He is a good source of tips when it comes to the actual implementation of the diet.

Posted 7 months ago #
Crystal W.
Member

Pellegrina-
I developed plantar fascitis at age 29 in both feet. The doctor said to take advil everyday for 2 weeks and I'd be fine. Four years later, I was still struggling with it. Then, I developed osteoarthritis in my left ankle, constant pain, couldn't walk. I have x-rays that show bone on bone. I was told that it happens and I was getting old (age 35). I have eaten right and exercised for years.

I started damage control, glucosamine/chondrotin, MSM, and started figuring out my hormone problem. Within a few months, I literally felt my feet start to heal. It's been about 3 1/2 years and my feet feel fine, no pain at all! There's hope.

Posted 7 months ago #
Helen
Member

Thank you Serial Sinner for this information. :)

Posted 7 months ago #
Iceskater
Member

Hi Pellegrina,
Sorry about the diagnoses, and even more sorry (although unsurprised) that your Doctor was of little help. Im in pre-med and its shocking the conventional information tossed out there to health care professionals (despite the low improvement rates of patients).

My dad has similar joint problems (Dr reccomended low-fat dairy (as I would expect). I agree that eliminating grains would be beneficial, and its surprisingly that many people do not know that you can obtain adequate calcium from a dairy-free diet.

best of luck!

Posted 7 months ago #
chowza
Member

Pellegrina,

So sorry to hear about the diagnosis. This is something you can beat, and the advice everyone has provided here is all really helpful. An approach that combines both diet and movement will be the most effective way to see some relief. Going paleo (or 100%) primal is definitely a good place to start, as well as loading up on Omega 3s and natural anti-inflammatories.

In terms of movement, stay away from pounding the hard surfaces for now--but don't stop moving! The most important thing is moving in the right way, with your joints aligned and your muscles and ligaments supple and responsive. Definitely, definitely pick up some sort of movement therapy--Egoscue, Alexander, and Feldenkrais are some great ones to start with.

Best of luck, and don't give in to the glum advice of doctors who are just plain WRONG!

Posted 7 months ago #
OnTheBayou
Member

Ouch. I feel your pain, but I am somewhat older, 63.

FOUR EFFIN' GRAMS A DAY OF ACETAMINOPHEN? Does this guy read the literature? (I loved your phrase about your liver cowering!)

My wrists were hurt very badly roller skating (no blades then!) with my little girls. Bone doc said, "Now pre-arthritic," that was about 1982. Pain flares have diminished over the years, but I fell, sorta, onto one hand a couple of weeks ago and, oh boy. Took hydrocodone, hardly ever do the hard stuff.

Then there are my knees, mostly my left one. Started about 1996, things snapping, clicking. An MRI was inconclusive and the HMO sure wasn't going to spend money on surgery. These knee problems have come and gone since then and then about a month ago, holy moly! Never was so bad, had to dig out my bilateral double hinged open patella (!!!) knee brace to help. Took NSAID's as needed.

The good news for me is that the knee is at about 90% of OK, the wrists are healing.

Now, about diet and OA. My thinking, and it's only that, is that diet probably won't help. BUT, having said that, a strict paleo diet will at least give you a Base Zero to start from. As SS's list above shows, there are a lot of possible reasons for you to be experiencing what you are. You might as well eliminate everything possibly related to food.

And let me tell you, I really, really admire good wait staff. I couldn't do it.

Posted 7 months ago #
pellegrina
Member

Wow...again, the outpouring of info and support here is unbelievable. Thank you all so much!

I read all of your replies with a notepad to write down everything that was suggested. The first easy thing to do is to start taking glucosamine supplements. Even though the doc said they don't help, I found several articles online that said there is evidence they DO help. And I guess it might be time to get rid of the nightshades. :(

I also need to figure out what shoes are best to work in. Right now I just wear regular sneakers. Too bad I can't waitress in Vibrams!

I'll keep you all posted on my progress. You guys rock!

Posted 7 months ago #
umuhk
Member

They're a bit expensive, but take a look at MBT shoes. My partner has a couple pair, including black sneakers, and they look very "normal" except for the rather thick sole. Wearing those cleared up his fasciitis and runner's knees; I understand they're also good for other joint problems.

They have a similar effect on the foot to FiveFingers, but they do it in a very different way. If you're on your feet all day, they may be helpful.

Posted 7 months ago #
Mick
Member

The WAPF's doctor has a short response in "As the Doctor" about rheumatoid arthritis, but I can see nothing in his section on osteoarthritis. However, as you can see, he's not deaf to the idea of nutritional therapy:

http://www.westonaprice.org/askdoctor/painfuljoints.html

I think I'd be inclined to have a look at his book, the Fourfold Path to Healing:

http://fourfoldhealing.com/book/

Posted 7 months ago #
Mick
Member

They have a similar effect on the foot to FiveFingers.

They don't. They're the polar opposite, and based on a completely contrary philosophy.

Frankly, I'd warn anyone off them in no uncertain terms - because I think the thinking behind the FiveFingers is correct, and well-backed by recent research. (Not that anyone specifically needs FiveFingers.)

Posted 7 months ago #
umuhk
Member

I didn't say that MBTs and FiveFingers worked the same way. I said they have a similar effect on the foot: the foot is strengthened.

For what it's worth, he went straight from MBTs to FiveFingers with no adaptation period; I take that to mean that whatever stresses people often find in going from "normal" shoes to FiveFingers had already been adapted from his walking in MBTs.

The thinking behind FiveFingers is "barefoot is best", and that's hard to argue with. But if barefoot (or FiveFingers) isn't an option, there are other things that can be useful and beneficial, even if they're not as good. I hold that MBTs are one of those things.

Posted 7 months ago #
Mick
Member

But if barefoot (or FiveFingers) isn't an option, there are other things that can be useful and beneficial, even if they're not as good. I hold that MBTs are one of those things.

You have no fundamental understanding of the thinking behind minimalist shoes if you think a crazily built-up shoe (which, by the way, also makes lateral movement difficult) is somehow in some way doing "the same thing".

I"m sure it's your "right" to "believe in" the MBT shoes if you wish. But they're not in any way, shape, or form somehow "like" a minimalist shoe. They're diametrically opposite to a minimalist shoe.

Posted 7 months ago #
umuhk
Member

Mick, I'm sorry if you're offended.

This conversation has rapidly deteriorated into an argument, and that was certainly not where I wanted to be. I don't really understand what you're arguing against (as far as I can tell, I never claimed that MBTs were minimalist shoes, nor that I had any "right" to "believe in" them), and I'm not sure I can make myself any more well understood, so I'll leave off here.

Sorry, folks, for the intrusion.

Posted 7 months ago #
kfarmer
Member

Until this past April, I would have trouble walking twenty minutes barefoot. With MBTs, I can walk in excess of three miles, and have no problems with "lateral movement" being difficult.

With fivefingers, I don't think I'd have had the same success at the start -- they wouldn't have given me anything that simply walking barefoot was *not* giving me. Specifically, the environment and time for my joint issues to correct themselves.

Based on my personal experience with each, I don't think I'd try fivefingers until the complaint is dealt with. Until then, I heartily recommend MBTs as a way to reduce stress on joints.

I keep and wear both. I enjoy both, and each has its advatanges over the other. If I want to enjoy a barefoot feeling, or climb through a bushy hillside, fivefingers work -- MBTs aren't designed for hills. If I want to walk long distances (like I am supposed to half the week) I switch to MBTs.

They're tools -- use the right tool for the job at hand.

Posted 7 months ago #
OnTheBayou
Member

Mick, you are a really great poster here, I always look forward to what you write.

But I think what umuhk is saying - correct me if wrong - is that both types of footwear can help someone. I don't even know what an MBT is, and I barely figured out the Five Fingers thing very recently.

If the OP is helped by MBT, or XYZ, or whatever, it's the right course of action.

Posted 7 months ago #
kfarmer
Member

OnTheBayou: http://www.swissmasai.co.uk

It's a semi-conventional shoe whose sole is built up in the middle to create a rolling pattern while walking, as opposed to most people's thud-smack-ouch pattern.

This would have been perfect in marching band :)

Posted 7 months ago #
OnTheBayou
Member

Wasn't that the principle of Earth Shoes? (Giving away my age, here....)

Posted 7 months ago #
kfarmer
Member

From the looks of things, earth shoes are completely different.

With MBTs, you learn to balance on a curved surface (it really works out the calves, btw). Earth shoes tilt your feet backward as if you were walking on a weird incline. MBTs are more like (at the beginning, certainly) walking barefoot on a beach. In both cases, your weight is cast rearward, which helps posture.

Earth shoes have a pronounced arch from what I can see. MBTs do not. They're the first shoe I had that didn't need one, though when I first started wearing them, it felt as if I'd had a helluva insert in there. In fact, inserts aren't exactly recommended with these. Not for support, at least.

So.. different mechanics involved, but they claim similar results.

Posted 7 months ago #