Is a Raw Vegan diet healthy?
(93 posts) (33 voices)-
OnTheBayou
Member"Vegan's just another word for "nothing left to eat" "
http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/01/vegans_just_another_word_for_n.php
I finally found the site I was looking for: http://www.beyondveg.com/index.shtml Clicking on any of the topics will open a page of abstracts by many writers. Most, as I recall, as well cited or offer sharp insights.
Posted 4 months ago # -
I have to agree with Del Mar that vegans in general sometimes get ridiculed with unfair viciousness around here. Not all vegans are wasted little twigs.
The photos in this post (link below) were taken in summer 2008, when I was 30 and had been flegan for about 2 years.
http://inthenightfarm.blogspot.com/2009/11/liberty-work.html
I don't think I looked emaciated or unhealthy, and I felt great. (And for the record, I also enjoyed preparing a wide variety of tasty, clean meals.) So how much "flex" was in flegan, you ask? Meat/fish/poultry maybe once every 2 months. Small amount of egg (in cornbread or somesuch) once every couple weeks. Small amount of dairy (FF yogurt as a condiment, or cheese atop a bowl of chili) once every couple weeks.
As others have said -- vegan may not be BEST, but it's not necessarily a death sentence, either.
(That said, I agree that the OP sounds very underweight.)
Posted 4 months ago # -
JulieD
MemberI assume that Dr. Oz didn't share with his viewers what else the "meat eater" was eating in is diet. I would also like to know what the "heart of an 85 year old" looks like. I agree with the others that the change from crap food to whole foods in general contributed to health.
I don't believe vegan is the best way to eat for me, but I do think some thrive on it, for awhile at least. This looks to be an interesting website:
Posted 4 months ago # -
Hey, thanks Katt. The horse is the Barb (name of a very rare breed), actually. She's my endurance mount. I'm Tamara. ;)
Posted 4 months ago # -
Del Mar Mel
MemberWow! Such a "spirited" discussion. I just want to offer that I am not "trolling". I am sincerely immersing myself in this because I have come to believe I am not going to thrive as a raw vegan. What it has given me is a lot of insight into how completely corrupt the food and medical industries have become. It has taught me to go all organic, all REAL foods and for that I am forever changed. But to be honest I just don't see not eating more traditional proteins so I am opening my brain.
Thanx BarbeyGirl and really to everyone. I am not offended and do not mean to offend. I am here to find my highest health. I really appreciate Mark's voice and what I love most is that despite having a very clear direction, he seems very open to discussing just about anything. So many people are so dogmatic with their philosphies which is a real disservice to ever opening one's mind. I have learned a lot in the last few years that really required me to discard much of what we have been taught and I am all the better for it.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Hear hear!
Posted 4 months ago # -
Katt
MemberOk, Tamara. :) I love horses and used to spend quite a bit of time studying the various breeds. I recognize the name. Gorgeous.
We're all here to find our health, I believe. Things will be somewhat different from person to person, though there are some constants that one can recognize... which have already been mentioned.
Posted 4 months ago # -
darien
MemberOnTheBayou - I have not made up my mind about staying raw vegan yet and I am not trying to convert anyone to a raw vegan diet because I do not know if it is truly the best diet or not. I just wanted to hear other people's experiences with it. Searching on Google for raw vegan information brings up almost nothing but praise for the diet. And all those sites showing big muscular raw vegans. I have read the beyondveg site, but it is one of very few that doesn't promote it as the healthiest diet.
Here is another interesting article I found about it: http://ryan-koch.blogspot.com/2009/03/storm-family-degenerating-raw-foodists.html
I am also curious about the argument with humans having a longer intestines than carnivores. According to some this means that humans are meant to be herbivores because our intestines is too long to be consuming a lot of meat which takes much longer to digest than plant foods. In carnivorous animals the meat will pass quickly through their shorter intestines. Here is an article explaining why humans are herbivores: http://www.sssbiotic.com/content/human_article.asp
And I did weigh myself in the morning today and I was 122. I had been staying between 124 - 125 for several weeks now.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Griff
Memberdarien, I'll see your unscientific, obviously-an-advertising-promo article about "why humans are herbivores" and raise you some reputable science from Dr. Michael Eades.
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-library/are-we-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-part-ii/
When you've read those, come back.
Posted 4 months ago # -
animalcule
MemberReally skinny people ('underweight' by BMI) can be perfectly healthy, as can people in the so-called 'ideal' weight range, and those who are considered overweight or obese. There is huge variation in humans. Plus, very picture I have ever seen of hunter-gathers and other people still eating traditional foods with plenty of animal fat - shows people on the thin side. See these pics:
http://www.fotobank.ru/img/JW01-1653.jpg?size=l
http://fotobank.ru/image/JW01-1657.html
http://i1.treklens.com/photos/6715/masai_dance...jpg
http://portal.unesco.org/education/en/files/5798/1031
7323921masai_2.jpg/masai_2.jpg
http://www.windows.ucar.edu/earth/polar/images/lc_inuit
3_sm.jpg
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/tserver.php?f=G04262.jpg&w=400&legacyResizeAs Weston A Price observed, being raised on a diet very high in protein and fat seems to produce a more narrow bone structure and less bulky muscles. This is easily observed in domestic animals as well, as I know from reading up on breeders who feed their dogs a biologically appropriate raw diet.
I have the same BMI as darian, and I have perfect health. I am very thin but have fat, muscles, and look normal - in fact I look much like the people in the pictures above, more so than I look like Americans. Of course, I haven't experienced any weight loss, and if I had I would be concerned.
To darian: I think if you add the animal products to your diet as the man you mentioned who lived to be 90, you will be in fairly good shape. Just make sure you are getting enough calories, fat, and protein. I know as a naturally thin person with a fast metabolism, I wouldn't be able to eat enough fruit, nuts and seeds to keep me feeling good for long.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Sue
MemberThe China Study is not worth the paper its written on.
Those that say they have been vegans for years and look good I'm sure are cheating occasionally.
Just swapping out SAD to vegan will definitely make you feel better. In the long-term you will start to be deficient. Because you believe so much in the philosophy of the vegan diet you start ignoring health issues you may have.
Posted 4 months ago # -
lil_earthmomma
MemberDarien, I'm not going to argue that you need to eat meat, even one of Mark's kids is a vegan (maybe vegetarian?).
My sil is a vegan, and I don't argue with her, because for most vegan's, there is an emotional aspect, due to love of animal life and a belief that animal's lives are as sacred as human's.
You don't need more fruit. You need more protein and fat. Eat legumes, quinoa, and coconut oil.
A great breakfast for you would be a raw smoothie with full fat coconut milk. I make them all the time with greens, coconut milk and frozen berries. A frozen banana makes these exactly like a milk shake.
Another way to get fat into your diet without cooking (if you chose to stay raw) is coconut bark. Mix coconut oil with cocoa powder, your fave chopped nuts and a bit of honey. Spread into a pan, freeze and cut. Eat and enjoy as a treat!
Coconut milk kefir would be a good addition to your diet as well. It's coconut milk fermented to create a yogurt like drink, with a lot of beneficial probiotics and nutrients. Google kefir to find a kefir sharing program near you.
Posted 4 months ago # -
darien
Memberlil_earthmomm - Thanks for the suggestions. I don't have the emotional aspect that a lot of vegans do. I've been trying raw vegan solely for the promised health benefits. If I believed eating meat regularly was even a little healthier than raw veganism, I'd have no problem doing so. The way I see it is the animals are going to keep being slaughtered and in the same amounts whether I personally eat their meat or not.
Posted 4 months ago # -
lil_earthmomma
MemberNo problem Darien. What exactly is it about meat that you believe will decrease your health?
And if you're after health, you must see that your diminishing weight is not a sign of increased health. It's just not.
Anyways, as I said, don't eat meat if you don't want to, but you need fat and more protein. Please please please if you do nothing else, add coconut milk/oil to your diet.
:)
Posted 4 months ago # -
darien
MemberThere have been people dying from E-Coli in hamburgers. And there's also mad cow disease. The animals are genetically modified to grow bigger faster and are raised in cages where they can barely move so they can't avoid eating their own feces which also ends up in the meat. They also use bleach in their meat to cut down on E-Coli. The meat takes several days to fully digest and rots in our stomach in the process.
I know it's not healthy that I'm losing weight but I think it's mainly because I'm not eating enough fruit to get enough calories. I'm usually eating under 1,600 calories daily. I'm been trying to keep my diet predominantly fruit with some vegetables, nuts, and seeds. I am having sunflower seeds and walnuts everyday so I do get protein and fat from those.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Del Mar Mel
MemberDarien, what about adding fish to your diet? I had been focusing on raw for a long time but never completely gave up fish. It's what I am going to focus on now. Also, you may want to consider some free range eggs. LEM has some great suggestions. Maybe add avocado and find a good protein powder. There are some great vegan protein powders and whey protein powder is completely isolated from milk so it is a good option also.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Sue
MemberDarien, there was that e-coli outbreak found in bagged spinach a while back.
The meat rotting in your stomach is not correct its just a bit of vegetarian propaganda.
Just eat what you feel comfortable with because it seems like you've made up your mind. Just watch the weight.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Darien: I can see that you are genuinely looking for answers here. But when you have something you feel safe with, and something else looks better... its STILL hard to change. I get it, I was there once with primal (coming from low fat). Maybe you should do a two week trial of the PB. Just eliminate fruits and up the meats and fat. You could still do raw veg (heck... I LOVE raw veggies) and see how you feel.
Personally, I think that eliminating sugars for me has improved my cholesterol, decreased inflammation and improved my energy. I dont get ravenously hungry like I used to. It jsut slowly creeps up. Before, I would murder people to get to food. But now, I can wait a couple hours if need be. I also have more energy in general.
What will probably happen is that you will have to fight sugar/fruit cravings for a few days (dont give in!!!). If you work out you will probably put on muscle too.
Here is a smaple menu for me just to see what we eat (Im sure it varies)
B: 4 egg whites cooked in 1 T bacon grease with sauteed veggies (onions/peppers/spinach) and a sprinkle of cheese. Tea with stevia and 1/2&1/2.L: Usually some leftovers (chili or steak or chicken or stir fry)or a BAS (Big Ass Salad). I add avocado and nuts to up the fat.
D: Couple nights ago I made salmon topped with Bacon Mayo and dill. Then I had a raw kale slaw:
Kale Slaw (actually a vegan[not that I advocate that]/raw recipe!)
4 c Kale, veins removed and chopped
1 small avocado
1 tablespoon apple cider vinegar
1 round T sun dried tomatoes, chopped
1 T shallot chopped
oil (any kind) if needed
S&P to taste
Put all in bowl and mash up with hands! Thats it! Eat within a couple hours or the avo will brown.Tonight I am making chinese pork belly.
If you need more meal ideas you can look at people's diaries, we like to keep track of what we eat to help others get ideas (just as yourself). Also, click on the recipes section of the forum main page. There are a lot of good ideas.
You can only go on how you feel when you do this. Just give it a shot!
Posted 4 months ago # -
SS is joking in case you cant tell...
Posted 4 months ago # -
hannahc
MemberTT you're using the pork belly?? I hope it's good :)
Darien, one_eye_mike mentioned this, but one of the things most people here strive for is to find reasonably priced, high quality grass-finished and pastured animal products. That includes meat, eggs, fat, and dairy if you include that in your diet. We understand that CAFOs produce nutritionally inferior food because of the horrendous conditions the animals are subjected to. We understand that chickens raised outside, eating bugs and scratching at grass will produce healthier eggs (and taste better themselves). Saying that because CAFO meats are unhealthy, so you won't be eating meat isn't a valid argument in MOST places. I realize it can be hard or prohibitively expensive to buy better quality foods in some places, but for most people you just need to rearrange your priorities (ie: what you spend your money on) in order to buy good quality food. It'll take some leg work to figure out where you can buy your food from, who's producing it, what methods they're using to raise their animals...but it's all worth it.
And not all wild fish are high in mercury, a quick google search will yield plenty of results for you to see what typical levels of mercury are in many fish. You'll ultimately eat what you like, but you should probably read through more of Mark's archives to find out what more people agree with in these forums regarding fat/protein/vegetarianism/veganism/etc., because Mark lays out pretty much all of his ideas very specifically here.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Hannah: I WAS until I got sick Sat night. Sunday I planted garlic (yeah, probably shouldnt have done that) and felt like POO. Took some elderberry extract and today I feel a LOT better. Jsut a little sniffly and thats it. I will be cooking that pork belly tonight and report!
Posted 4 months ago #
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