Is a Raw Vegan diet healthy?
(91 posts) (32 voices)-
darien
MemberI have been eating mostly (at least 90%) raw vegan the past couple months. I'm a 5'11" male and my weight has dropped to 124 from 138 previously. There is an overwhelmingly large amount of people reporting great results and healing from this diet. The belief is that cooking food creates toxins, kills most nutrients, and kills the enzymes we need for digestion and so we use up more of our own digestive enzymes, which we only have a limited amount of. The China Study is often used as the reason to avoid animal protein.
Did anyone see the Dr Oz show with Rocco? He was eating a lot of meat and had the heart of an 85 year old. Dr. Oz put him on a vegan diet for 28 days. His blood glucose went from 172 to 99, waist went from 49" to 43", weight went from 265 to 235, and HDL cholesterol went from 33 to 45.
Has anyone tried the raw vegan diet for a few months or longer? What was your experience? Is it ideal for optimal health and longevity?
Posted 1 week ago # -
lil_earthmomma
MemberYou're definitely not going to find supporters of the vegan lifestyle here! lol
I love to eat raw veggies and fruit, and even love raw and mostly raw fish and meat, but I have seen way too many sickly vegans stuffing their faces with bread/pasta/rice in an effort to fill the void created by lack of protein and fat.
Posted 1 week ago # -
Primalchild
MemberVegetables confuse the heck out of me.
I've read that humans lack the ability to digest cellulose, so vegetables high in cellulose like broccoli, cauliflower, spinach and cabbage can be abrasive on the digestive system if eaten raw, and who knows how much nutrition we derive from them. According to that source, the best vegetables we can eat are all kinds of lettuce, bell peppers, cucumber and celery.
I've also read that cooking breaks down some of the cellulose and makes vegetables more digestible, and the nutrients more available. There is probably a line between cooking to release nutrients and cooking to destroy them.
How much of any of that is true, I have absolutely no idea.
As for Dr. Oz, don't trust any kind of media. Especially not health shows produced for entertainment. I suppose they didn't go into much detail about Rocco's diet beyond the fact that he was eating lots of meat (and "red" meat, no doubt). Didn't mention much about beer or candy or pasta or sugar in coffee, I'm sure. Any mention of how much or what kind of fats he was eating?
Regardless, if this vegan diet eliminated HFCS and other processed sugars and limited vegetable oils (under the Low Fat banner), I'm tempted to say it's still more healthy than the SAD and his good results aren't surprising.
Posted 1 week ago # -
eero
MemberI agree with PrimalChild.
From a scientific modeling standpoint, the human body is still a "black box" -- not a mathematically solved system like the motion of the planets or an Intel chip.
Most of us tend to think in overarching theories or concepts.
The primal diet "works" because it mimics our ancestors' diets."
Raw vegan "works" because cooking creates toxins.
Low carb "works" because it minimizes insulin response.
Low fat "work" because...You get the point.
By over-focusing on these central themes we convince ourselves that's all there is to it.
Let me put it this way: I'd like to see a comparison between raw vegans, and a group who eats the exact same foods as raw vegans, but the food is cooked -- steamed spinach instead of raw, etc.
I don't think any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, has really isolated the *cooking* variable from the aggregation of other changes that are present in the vegan to raw vegan transition. So if you go from a diet consisting of vegan-friendly soy juice (ahem, "soy milk"), veggie burgers, soy dogs, tofu, corn, more corn, more soy dogs, wheat, gluten, bread, rice, and beans to a diet of veggies, fruits, and nuts -- you're telling me that you're healthier now because you no longer eat cooked food?
Awesome.
Posted 1 week ago # -
darien
MemberYes, I have read some articles on this site. I am interested in hearing other people's experiences as a vegan or raw vegan. I'm a male and I don't look emaciated or anything. Usually raw vegans explain their low weight saying that everyone considers overweight people to be normal weight. And that the BMI is averaged out over many overweight people and therefore a weight that is considered underweight is actually healthier.
Posted 1 week ago # -
Griff
Memberdarien: There is no science that supports anything you've just said. A vegan diet is actually the worst thing you can do - both to your body and to the environment. Read Lierre Keith's "The Vegetarian Myth," and be informed.
Scientific studies have repeatedly shown that "overweight" people live longer than normal-weight people and much longer than underweight people. You are the textbook definition of underweight. It is dangerous. My ex weighed 123 at 6'4" and was put in the hospital because of his vegetarian diet. He developed wasting, and it nearly killed him. You are headed down the same road, if you're not already there.
Posted 1 week ago # -
My thinking is anything "raw" is going to get rid of lots of the bad stuff in your diet anyhow.
I think that's where the *real* benefit comes in.
For example with raw you can't eat:
-Grains
-Vegetable oils
-Most soy
-Most milk
-Most starches
-Most sugarsThat's all that comes to mind right now, but right there you're *way* better than normal.
If you want to bump up your results even *more* the next best step would be something similar to Primal in my opinion.
But I don't think the "raw people" understand where their "benefits" are coming from. In my opinion it's not the enzymes and avoidance of meat, it's what you *can't* eat when you're raw (grains, etc.) that really gives you the benefits.
-SeanPosted 1 week ago # -
Katt
MemberRichard Wrangham writes that people who eat a raw vegan diet are generally missing out on quite a bit of nutrition and that they will lose too much weight due to that the human digestive tract cannot process raw foods well. He cited several studies about this in the first part of his book: How Cooking made us Human.
Posted 1 week ago # -
OnTheBayou
MemberI hardly know where to begin, darien. My mouth has been hanging open for two minutes in disbelief.
YOU ARE SKINNY! I know, I was skinny all my life into my mid-thirties. It's not that other people are overweight, it's vegans are often WAY underweight. I'm sure a lot of your weight loss has been Lean Body Mass, i.e. muscle, heart.
Here's a LBM calculator. It's too bad you didn't do it before your started. http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/diet.html
There are two reasons.
One is that it takes nine pounds of mixed vegetable matter to get enough calories to keep a mythical "average" body going.
Cooking has been with humans for at least 250,000 years. Cooking makes food MORE nutritious (it does NOT add "toxins") because the nutrients are more available.
Raw veganism has to be the least healthy diet out there. You sure as heck won't get support on this forum. You surely realized that we are heavy on the meats, fairly on vegetables. We are talking getting 70 percent of our calories from meat, typically.
I wish I could relocate a very, very good site that very objectively refutes vegetarianism for most people (some seem to do OK.) Veganism and raw food as subsets are even worse.
Go grab yourself a nice ribey or fillet of salmon. Your body will thank you.
Posted 1 week ago # -
darien
MemberThere are many people with very positive testimonies of the raw vegan diet. Why would there be so many if it is so unhealthy?
Also, a lot of raw vegans get most of their calories from fruit. Vegetables make up the least amount of the calories. Personally I've been getting at least half from fruit, 20% - 40% from nuts and seeds, and the rest from vegetables.
Posted 1 week ago # -
Raphael S.
MemberWe generally stay away from all carbs, but especially when it comes to fruit. It has a lot of fructose and we all here agree that it's bad in large amounts. Some have even completely cut off fruits from their diet.
I would think that the huge drop in numbers during the first month would be due to the drastic change in diet. Have you ever met anyone that has been a raw-vegan for say, 5 years?
Besides, all that weight you're losing is muscle.(and probably bone?)
Posted 1 week ago # -
OnTheBayou
MemberWell, it depends on how you define healthy. (There is also a huge psychological component of denial in many cases, I'm sure.)
If you think being real skinny is normal for a man, you are wrong. Losing LBM is no joke.
Half fruit? Fruit provides sugars and some vitamins, that's about all. In terms of keeping your body healthy, fruit has to be one of the lowest contributing food groups there is. Nuts and seeds have way out of whack Omega 3 and 6 ratios. I'm not sure what kinds of seeds you can eat raw, but they are loaded with phytates and anti-nutrients that actually prevent what minerals you are eating from entering your system.
Why would you want to eat in a way that your body is not programmed for?
Posted 1 week ago # -
darien
MemberThe seeds I eat are sunflower seeds, flaxseeds, and chia seeds. I chose to eat this way because the raw vegans said it is the healthiest way to eat and they had the China Study and lots of testimonies with before and after pictures to back it up. And I find many more raw vegans saying how much better they feel and the diseases they've cured than I find saying that they lost too much weight.
Norman Wardhaugh Walker was mostly a raw vegan that lived to be 99. The only animal products he ate were egg yolks, cottage cheese, Swiss cheese, raw cream, and raw goat's milk.
Posted 1 week ago # -
Raw vegan, vegan, and vegetarian diets may result in health benefits if they are "clean," that is, free of the processed foods that make up so much of the SAD.
Get rid of the frankenfoods, and yeah, you're likely to feel better than you did before. That does not mean that vegan/vegetarian diets are optimal.
I was "flegan" (mostly vegan, but flexible about occasional exceptions for practical reasons) for 3 years. Felt great until I started asking more of my body (bodybuilding) and the grains/legumes caught up with me (bloating). Went primal. Problems solved.
Posted 1 week ago # -
NeoPaleo
MemberI ate vegan for almost a year, including a couple times trying out raw vegan (Doug Graham 80-10-10 style). I felt much better after switching to primal/paleo - not that I felt "bad" as a vegan, or raw vegan - it just didn't work for me on a "logical" level. It didn't feel "right".
But, like others have said, I think the main issue why raw vegan works for some people (for a time anyway) is the fact of removing everything that's not paleo (since raw vegan IS paleo - from a certain way of looking at it).
There are people that say they've been raw vegan for years. They say they feel very healthy - have good B12 tests, iron, calcium, etc. From reading so much about it, I think it could be possible, but I certainly don't think it's natural. I used to frequent the "30 bananas a day" site - so I'm quite familiar with all the arguments for and against raw vegan.
People like Doug Graham say that raw vegan is the way humans are *suppose* to eat - but he's going too far back in evolutionary history - yeah, primates are frugivores, but not humans - we started eating meat when we climbed out of the trees. And we started cooking not long after.
I haven't heard of that Norman Walker guy, but from what you just said, he's certainly NOT raw VEGAN if he also ate those other things.
Posted 1 week ago # -
Del Mar Mel
MemberI think Darien is getting way too much flack here. As crazy as it sounds there are some common philosophies between this way of eating and raw vegan. Both value a very organic, pure and simple approach to eating. There are also more amino acids than you may be aware of in fruits and veggies. That is because eating them raw leaves the enzymes in tact which are destroyed in cooking.
I have been eating a lot of raw foods the last couple years and have settled on the fact that I am not likely to give up fish. I also like eggs, greek yogurt and occasionally want red meat. I had figured this might make me a flexitarian. I just found Mark's site and bought his book today. I certainly can't see myself eating meat and poultry three meals a day but I can see that I do need some traditional protein and I have always been conscious of having some at each meal.
I run a lot and end up wanting fish or eggs on a regular basis. I was thrilled to find Mark's wife, Carrie's post on how she does Primal and she does not eat red meat or chicken. Mainly fish and she does some smoothies with protein powders, I believe also some greek yogurt. Her way is most likely to be my way and I was glad for her Q&A.
Anyway, please don't ridicule this question. I am very familiar with what Darien is referring to in The China Study and it is solid research which will keep me quite committed to lots of plant food in my diet. We are all seekers of the highest health; if not we would be on the SAD (standard American diet) and happy about it. Choosing an alternative diet/ lifestyle definitely signifies a quest for health and is a journey that I respect.
Posted 1 week ago # -
one_eye_mike
MemberAny way you freakin' slice it, there is no man, at 5'11", that is healthy at 124 lbs.
I have a buddy that's 5'11" and weighs about 150 lbs and he is one seriously skinny dude. I can't imagine him losing about 25lbs. That loss had to be mostly muscle and bone. I'll assume you have no musculature what so ever.
Common sense has to be screaming at you when you look in the mirror that you're not healthy, I don't give a rip what any web site claims.
Posted 1 week ago # -
kuno1chi
MemberDelMarMel: A lot of us here love our Big Ass Salads (TM). But the fact is that in general, humans don't do well on a strictly vegan diet. By well, I mean strong, healthy, active, and muscular enough to save their own life if need be.
Yay for anyone who dumps the Frankenfood crap; but I can bench-press most of the vegans I know ;-)
Just sayin'...your mileage may vary.
Posted 1 week ago # -
darien
MemberAnother example of a healthy raw vegan was brought up in the fruitarian topic. Dr. Vivian Vetrano is 80 years old and healthy, but surprisingly doesn't recommend eating mostly fruit. Apparently she has been raw vegan for 60 years. I wonder what health she'd be in if she had been eating something like paleo for 60 years.
Posted 1 week ago # -
I apologize for dismissing your original inquiry out of hand--I assumed you were trolling. I understand now that it was earnest, so here is my earnest reply.
I think you'll find this forum populated with people who have done a lot of sincere dietary exploration.
I used a vegan diet with what I felt like was a lot of success twice. I did it for about six months in college, and I felt fantastic. I did it again in recent years to reverse a rapid descent into middle age. To be fair, I was much more what BarbeyGirl calls a flegan. I ate what people cooked for me, but when I was in control of my meals, I ate vegan.
I felt best when I only ate veggies and potatoes (no grain or sugar), but that's a tall order. It takes many pounds of veggies in a day to keep you going. That comes with the inconvenience of a lot of big and urgent BMs the next morning. I was always eating, but I was always hungry. When my wife made a meat dish, I would often eat all of the leftover meat while I was doing the dishes. I thought it would do me harm, but I couldn't help myself. I pestered my wife with "The China Study," and I fed my baby soy formula.
I read GCBC this summer, and immediately started eating most of my calories in meat. I gave up all grain & sugar (except for occasional alcohol). I injured myself and could not continue running 55 miles/week. The end result of this is that my physique went through a rapid and astonishing "regression" to the body I lived in 20 years ago (I'm 40). I lost weight while appearing considerably more muscular. I'm never tired until bedtime. Yesterday I did over 5 hours of yardwork on the spur of the moment, because I didn't have anything better to do. I only need to eat twice a day (instead of 5-6 times), and the timing of those meals is not at all urgent.
This website is a good place for you to seek information. Probably the best source I can recommend is "The Vegetarian Myth"--I wish it had come out years ago.
Edited to add: if you must eat a vegan diet, you would benefit considerably from following the 99-year-old's example and eating lots of eggs and drinking whole milk.
Posted 1 week ago # -
OnTheBayou
Member"The only animal products he ate were egg yolks, cottage cheese, Swiss cheese, raw cream, and raw goat's milk." This is vegan???????
That's how he got his high quality nutrition.
The fact that people often wind up "curing" ailments typically has nothing to do with eating raw vegan. It has to do with the fact that the food they used to eat was shit. Read this forum, especially that current thread of great results, and you see the same "cures" taking place here. And unlike raw veganism, women on the PB often "cure" menstrual and PMS issues instead of making them worse.
Bench pressing vegans! LOL! That says it all.
62shelby, I think you are right. darien has his mind made up and is going to keep doing what he's doing, I suspect. But he DID ask what we thought, although obviously I think by now, he's trying to convert us or something.
darien, have at it. I mean nothing snarky or unkinds when I say that. But you won't find any support here.
Posted 1 week ago #
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