Healthy people that eat grains...
(206 posts) (49 voices)-
I think I'm going to start a thread called:
"Healthy people that never exercise."
Or
"Healthy people who drink every night."
Or
"Healthy people who smoke cigars."
Or
"Healthy people who run ultra marathons on a regular basis."
Or
"Healthy people who have chosen to be vegans."
Or
"Healthy people who eat tons of soy."
Or whatever.
You can make a case for anything.
But if you step back, and just take in the overall picture, and read between the lines. You're probably going to come to your own conclusions on the best way to live for yourself.
If people want to eat grains, I say go for it!
I know I did for the vast majority of my life.
And so far... I'm not dead.
But I certainly think it's better not to eat grains now. And that's what I'm choosing.
-SeanPosted 4 months ago # -
SerialSinner
MemberSo bobby, you are saying that many of us here are close-minded, fundamentalists, blinded by group think and believers in faulty science because we believe that:
- We did not evolve to thrive on grains.
- Grains are not a good source of carbs because they contain elements potentially very harmful to us.As far as I know, you haven't yet provided any convincing argument against any of the above. You seem to disregard all the evidence and reasoning that has been shown to you before. And at the very least, any basic knowledge of evolutionary biology should make the first statement self-evident to you.
But you jump in making sweeping statements about the community, and then claim to be a very open minded and a true skeptic. I think you are funny.
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight
BlockedI think that for some people removing grains would be a good thing. For instance, people with diabetes would probably benefit from not eating grains. Also, someone that is extremely addicted to grains (as in, when they eat some, they need to eat more) should probably avoid grains as well. Basically if grains triggers someone to overeat or eat unhealthy in general, they should be avoided. Also, I think that people that are extremely insulin resistant also should either limit or eliminate grains from their diet.
But, on the other hand, there are people that need to eat grains to maximize health. In this category would be many high level athletes (or people that work out a lot) and people that are very insulin sensitive. Also, grains are great if you are looking to gain muscle and bulk up. Just ask over at bodybuilding.com.
I am not saying grains are like veggies, and everyone should be eating them. I am just saying that they are beneficial to many people's health.
And while we are on the subject, sugars are also necessary to health. Fructose is actually healthy and beneficial in low doses. You need glycogen in your liver and it is optimal to have a good glycogen store in your muscles as well. Sugar is a good way to produce this. And trust me, if grok ran up on an apple tree, you better believe he would be eating them until he was full.
Grains and sugars are not always bad. Just like saturated fats are not always bad, but can be. The only thing that is basically always bad is trans fats. Sugars and grains actually serve important purposes in the diet.
Any theories about long term dieting that prevents intake of fruit (and especially vegetables) are one sided and are not optimal for health (at least for the great, great, majority of people).
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight
BlockedWe didn't evolve eating dairy either, but there are many, many reasons why that is necessary.
A high protein diet with low calcium intake (which would describe many of the people on this board) has been shown to be very detrimental to bone health.
Basically, if I have one gripe with the actual primal diet it is the lack of calcium. Other than that it is pretty optimal. I won't deny that. I just think it is short sighted to completely shun things like grains and dairy (unless you have an allergy) which have been shown over and over again to be beneficial to health.
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight,
I'm totally cool with people eating grains.
But I think that it's just basically out of convenience.
Athletes don't *need* grains, that's actually kind of a strange statement.
They may benefit from *carbs* but why grains? Why not potatoes?
And fructose is actually pretty bad for ya man.
It goes straight to your liver, and throws off a bunch of junk proteins, and also converts to triglycerides.
Check out this lecture by the University of California on the subject. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM
-Sean
Posted 4 months ago # -
Geoff
MemberBasically, if I have one gripe with the actual primal diet it is the lack of calcium.
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/calcium-for-women/
Peace Out.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Get Primal
Memberbobbylight, I notice that you like to argue more than anything. I would appreciate a thread called "For those that want to argue with bobbylight". Then I would know where to go when I was in the mood for a brawl.
If you were aware of a cardiologist that has dedicated his entire career to these very topics, and had thousands of real-life patient results to back up his practices, would you trust his findings and recommendations?
If the answer is yes please go visit http://www.heartscanblog.blogspot.com. Go there. Spend some time there. I am not armed with the scientific knowledge to battle this topic. With all respect, you are not either but it hasn't slowed you down. Spend some time reading somebody that has dedicated their professional life to not only researching this very topic, but treating (with astounding results) thousands of patients.
Probably sounds harsh but this circular argument can only go on for so long.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Ahh the Troll hath revealed himself. Go away ye filthy troll.
Posted 4 months ago # -
@bobbylight - It's all just personal choice. Eat whatever you want. It certainly doesn't bother me that other people choose to eat grains, or HFCS, or anything else. Some of them are probably fairly healthy, too.
The folks on this forum just happen to find it easy to stay healthy while avoiding grains and processed food.Posted 4 months ago # -
Sir Grandma
MemberI think the closed minded one has been relieved. To say that it is impossible to be a H/G today is very closed minded. Tell that to the freegans :) LOL!
But seriously H/G has not ceased to exist on the planet. It is practiced by many cultures to varying degrees. I saw this great "Wierd Food" show yesterday that discussed the traditional diet of West Virginia's Appalachia region. Squirrel, Possum, Chestnuts, etc were gathered from the backyard for a massive feast. I am sure it is possible to do in many parts of the world; even the US.
Posted 4 months ago # -
lbd
MemberThere have been several users lately that have mentioned Lyle McDonald and have spent considerable time here questioning the PB. So, I thought I would take a little trip over there to see what's what. How surprising to see the person who started this rather lengthy thread carrying on a similar conversation over there and getting a reply from Mr. McDonald himself who said:
"a. Paleo cultists ignore data that doesn't fit their religion. So they'll ite data by Cordain or Eaton or whichever science fits their belief system but ignore data showing that grain intake correlates with health. "
I think we need to ignore trolls.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Raphael
MemberI think it's the other way around: followers of CW are the one's who constantly ignore data showing that grains and excess carbs in general are bad.
bobbylight, instead of question the PB, why don't you question your holy researches, which you constantly bring up?
Posted 4 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
MemberI think that Lyle McDonald really knows his stuff....mostly. Like Cordain and his Achilles tendon of using crapola oil and then cooking it, I think the same is true of Mr. McDonald. While one of his areas of interest is weight loss, the other is body builder. The latter is a very unnatural activity and it usually involves younger people, ages wherein the long term effects of bad diet have still to show up.
I'm not sure what his beef is with paleo, but he sure has one.
OTOH, all we have to do is look at who is healthy and who is not. The results speak for themselves.
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight
BlockedFrom my conversations with lyle, I will give you guys a recap of his views on the subject. He basically said "it is hard to talk badly about a diet that is based on lean meats, fruits, and vegetables." But he also stated that the primal/paleo movement is too one sided and that they ignore research that says things that go against their beliefs...like the stuff about grains or dairy being good for you.
Basically, he doesn't have a major problem with the food choices of people that are eating primal or paleo, but he does have a problem with people ignoring the research that says grains and dairy are beneficial...and there is a LOT of it to be honest.
And as for being promoting body building diets, if you actually read his articles he states that a wide variety of diets can be appropriate for people in different situations. He isn't going to put someone that sits around most of the time on a diet for body building.
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight
BlockedHere, this is part 1 of a 4 part article comparing the three categories of diet (high carb (CW), medium carb (zone), low carb (Atkins or PB)
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/comparing-the-diets-part-1.html
Basically he states that none of these diets are better or worse, they are just appropriate for different people in different situations.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Get Primal
Memberbobbylight, have you gone over to Dr. Davis' blog yet? I am interested to hear your thoughts after spending some time reading him.
What I like most about Davis is that he actually has hundreds of patient records proving that his methods are advantageous. Not propaganda. Not opinion. Proof. Dramatically improved lipid panels. REGRESSION of coronary plaque. Not stuff that can be argued with.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Niklas
MemberI do think that the long term effects of a bad diet show up on young people, they even show up on young children. I know 17 years old who spend most of their day lamenting how bad they feel, how they have always headache, how they wake up feeling tired and how every bone of their body aches.
Bad eating in young children translates in nightmares, tantrums, mind confusion in classroom, skinny body with bloated stomach, lack of strength and even depression.
For many young people bad eating leads to aggressivity, apathy, tiredness. I don't remember who said that but high-sugar diet seems to be associate with the explosive rage we see everyday and look so irrational in the eyes of those that don't experience it anymore.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Juan
Member@bobbylight
This will be my last post on this topic. Please forgive its length.Bodybuilders or elite athletes are not examples of optimal health and that is the basis of Primal Blueprint. They do what they have to in order to maintain their extreme level of performance. That is not the same as maintaining an optimal level of health and vitality which, again, is the goal of the PB if you haven't cottoned on to it yet. (which apparently you haven't) I'd suggest you do a little meaningful research, please.
As regards that "research" I can see that you read whatever it is that you read with as much of a confirmation bias, and most likely more, than anyone I've come across so far on this board. And then, you go ahead and press your case based on those covetously held preconceptions. It reads as though you just cannot bear the thought of giving up some of the precious things that you like, or love, to eat. Well, if that's the case, then go for it. Carb up. Whatever.
Similarly, people who smoke cigarettes also really like them and many have given examples of so-and-so, who smoked all his life and yet lived to be 90 years old. Well, again I say, go for it. I used to smoke-- I loved to smoke -- I gave them up. I used to eat grain-based food-- I loved grain-based food -- I gave up grain-based foods. No regrets in either case. I still have my indulgences -- mostly wine -- but guess what, I am healthier and in better shape than ever. Read Mark's post about asceticism from a couple of days ago. It is apt. (I know you read it, actually.)
Please don't misread my cigarette reference (again). In my earlier posting, the analogy to cigarette smoking I made did not say that cigarettes are good for you, nor did I say that above. Please read carefully. (Granted, you weren't the only one to infer that from the previous posting.)
Where have grains been "proven" to be good for you? For proof, we need more than mere epidemiological studies. Please give a link or two to unequivocal studies in this vein if you have them. If not unequivocal, it is not "proven".
Otherwise, if we want to be honest about health and nutrition, we have to look upon, at the very least, on what is NOT proven. And that happens to be just about the majority of nutritional CW. And also, we might want to go with what is simply logical biologically, or, what can be established through thought experiments, for example. The Primal Blueprint does all of these pretty well, plus Mark has cited many, many references of actual supportive science which are at least as good, and usually better, than anything from CW. Have you read any of this stuff? Seriously?
If you want to avail yourself of some non-Primal-Blueprint-Cult material, yet which is accessible and good work by writers who do not have an agenda but who are sincere, use true scientific honesty, and come with good credentials, then please start with "The Cholesterol Myths" by Uffe Ravnskov, and "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes. These writers/thinkers are far-and-away more credible than nearly anybody one could encounter in the "grains are necessary" camp, whomever they may be. Please give some similar references for me if you feel otherwise. But, please, read those books; they are good.
Posted 4 months ago # -
And we all agree here that you can't.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Juan
MemberYou can be "healthy" by doing just about anything ... for a while, I suppose.
Check out Steve Redgrave, the British multiple Olympic Gold medal-winning rower (rower=seriously fit). He was diagnosed with diabetes at age 35.
Carb up, bro, carb up.
(Redgrave is now a marathoner/triathlete, fer crissakes!)
Okay, THIS is my last post. :)
Posted 4 months ago # -
Niklas
MemberI sent a mail to Dr. Davis and he said that it's not necessary to remove grains or even wheat from the diet but it's advisable to reduce them and not eat the huge amount everyone eats. I'm saying this just to point out that maybe claiming grains are poisonous is maybe a bit too much if even those who think they might be an health hazard agree that eating some of them is not going to have bad effects.
I tested for celiac twice and found nothing in my blood or digestive system suggestive of wheat intolerance. I have eaten in the past lot of seitan (pure gluten) without ill effects or stomach distress.
And the effect of phytates is relevant only at high intake and even people eating a serving or two of grain a day are not gong to get a relevant negative effect from phytates. It's not like the amount of phytate contained in a tablespoon of grains is going to relevantly reduce the absorption of body minerals, that's not what medical literature supports. Poor mineral absorption from phytates seems actually to be a problem mostly or only for populations eating a calorically inadequate diet with one bad grain (i.e. corn) as the main sources of calories.I have other reasons though to prefer veggies to grains like blood sugar, taste, nutritional density of the diet and a faster digestion with less feelings of "post-prandial digestive sluggishness" typical of grain based meals.
Posted 4 months ago #
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