H1N1 Vaccine .. safe or using fear to make $$?
(145 posts) (46 voices)-
Playing Devil's Advocate to OTB's comment that H1N1 is impacting the young:
" Especially since this flue strikes mostly young and healthy people, ones w/o decades of diet or body abuse."
I'd propose the bulk of the "young and healthy" are very immune system compromised as they are raised primarily on processed food, sugar, grain, starch, and indoor video games. They have never fully developed a strong immune system. I'd argue they haven't "decades of abuse", but have also gone without even the briefest period of proper nutrition and development.
Imagine a typical suburban 8 year old of today, to an 8 year old raised in a traditional Weston A Price-like culture with whole foods, outdoor play, well, I should think the weak and ill-fed youth of today are indeed going to be far more susceptible.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Oh, no that's not the point I'm getting at. Just that undoubtedly Flu of some sort has been with us as long as we've been evolving. Straying from our evolutionary nutrition, activity, lifestyle has certainly allowed rapidly mutating viral strains to exploit that change.
I'm just saying it is plausible that there is some defect in the immune system among the young raised SAD that is even easier for Flu to grab hold of, something that even weak/older folks have.
Not really a comment one way or the other for or against getting a Flu shot. Just a backwards look to see if there really are "young/healthy" people being affected. Are they healthy then? or is there some small protection from H1N1 specifically that older folks have picked up from exposure to other Flu strains over many seasons, even with damaged systems from decades of dietary abuse?
Not hoping to debate vaccines. I'd suppose no one is perfect. Sure, you can ask.
Posted 4 months ago # -
nobody on the pro-vaccine side has responded to the autism/mitochondrial dysfunction link i brought up.
looking at the research here, conducted at the institute for chronic illnesses in maryland and published in the peer reviewed journal toxicological and environmental chemistry, we see that people with mitochondrial dysfunction are much more likely to develop autism after vaccination. problematically, we do not know who has mitochondrial dysfunction.
article here: http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a910652305~db=all~jumptype=rss
the autism/vaccine link is proven. not in all cases, but at least in some. possibly in very many.
here is gary null's interpretation of the institute of chronic illnesses in maryland's research from the article i linked to in an earlier post. highly recommended reading.
Evidence for the Thimerosal-Autism Connection: The Research of the Geier’s
During the past 5 years, Dr. David Geier and his son Mark Geier at the Institute of Chronic Illnesses in Silver Springs, Maryland, have been conducting the most thorough epidemiological and toxicological studies on the possible relationship between thimerosal or ethylmercury used in vaccines and the high incidence of neurological impairment in vaccinated children. In fact the Geiers were the first in the US to conduct and publish such epidemiological studies to map the trends vaccinations with and without thimerosal and the rates of autism spectrum disorders (ASD). The Geiers were originally skeptical that there was any relationship between thimerosal and ASD; however, the on-going studies convinced them otherwise. For the Geiers, the continual use of thimerosal is a “medical crisis” and, therefore, a separate section devoted to their research is warranted.
Although the Geiers do not rule out genetic factors associated with pathogenetic developments in ASD, their research convincingly shows that “mercury exposure can induce immune, sensory, neurological, motor, and behavioral dysfunctions similar to traits defining or associated with ASDs.”156 Not only do their studies focus on the effects of thimerosal during the vaccination regimen of children but also mercury’s neurological effects during the neonatal period of an infant’s development. While the vast majority of attention to thimerosal is placed on its use as a preservative in vaccines, the compound is also used in other products such as nasal sprays, eye
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solutions, and other injectable biological products, including Rho(D)-immune globulin which is given to pregnant Rh negative women.
Beginning in 2003, the Geiers noted that the rapid increase in autism in the US, from 1 in approximately 2,500 in the mid-1980s to 1 in approximately 300 children in the mid-1990s (as of 2007, the ratio is now estimated at 1 in approximately 150) could correspond to the rise in the number of childhood vaccinations before the age of 2 years. The researchers stated that “the evidence presented here shows that the occurrence of neurodevelopmental disorders following thimersosal-containing childhood vaccines does not appear to be coincidental.” 157 A subsequent study published the same year compared adverse neurodevelopment reports with the diphtheria, tetanus, acellular pertussis (DTaP) vaccine—those containing thimerosal and those that were thimerosal-free. Their research was based on the review of tens of millions vaccines administered in the U.S.158
In 2004, they performed a similar study but looked at the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine and ASD trends. There results corroborated with their earlier DTaP investigation that “there is biological plausibility and epidemiological evidence showing a direct relationship between increasing doses of mercury from thimerosal-containing vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders.” More startling for the Geiers was an additional potential relationship between the MMR vaccine itself and ASD. This convinced them in their study’s conclusions that “thimersosal be removed from all vaccines and additional research be undertaken to improve the MMR vaccine with an improved safety profile.”159
In 2006, the Geiers performed the first major epidemiological study, an “ecological study” to access the trends in certain reported neurological disorders—autism, mental retardation and speech disorders—in the Vaccine Event Reporting System (VAERS) between the years 1991 and 2004. This was a follow up of several earlier epidemiological studies.160 161 The latter years of this timeline correspond to when thimerosal was removed from vaccines. It found “significant reductions in the proportion of NDs reported to VAERS as thimerosal was begun to be removed from childhood vaccines in the US from mid-1999 onwards.”162
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One of the Geiers more recent studies, sponsored by the Office for Human Research Protections, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, screened a group of autistic children with only known exposure to mercury via vaccine thimerosal. Eight of the nine patients screened—each who was developing normally prior to the manifestation of encephalopathic traits—were exposed to significantly higher mercury levels from Thimerosal-containing biologic/vaccine preparations during their fetal/infant developmental periods, and subsequently, between 12 and 24 months of age. The follow adverse effects were common to each of the children under investigation.:
•
had regressive ASDs ;
•
had elevated levels of androgens;
•
excreted significant amounts of mercury post chelation challenge;
•
had biochemical evidence of decreased function in their glutathione pathways;
•
had no known significant mercury exposure except from Thimerosal-containing vaccines/Rho(D)-immune globulin preparations;
•
had alternate causes for their regressive ASDs ruled out.
Their conclusions are that thimerosal intoxication should be considered as a component in the diagnosis of some regressive ASDs.163
Many pregnant women are administered an injection of Rho(D) immuno globulins, better known as TCRs, containing thimerosal. Drs. David and Mark Geier conducted a race-matched controlled study of Rh negative women who received TCRs, the toxicity levels and effects of mercury on neonatal development, and the rate of autism in children.164 The results showed that autistic children were significantly more likely to have Rh-negative mothers than those in the control group, and that each ASD child’s mother was determined to have been administered a TCR with thimerosal during her pregnancy. The implications of the study seem to indicate that unborn children exposed to mercury by their mothers having received drugs and/or vaccines containing thimerosal might contribute to later neurological impairment.Posted 4 months ago # -
LPCRoy
MemberSam, I replied, you chose not to read it or acknowledge it, further confirming my belief that no ammount of actual well done science will make Anti-Vaxxers change their mind :)
There isn't even a correlative relationship between thiomersal and autism, let alone a causation.
The easiest way to refute the Thiomersal link is a chart like this
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/files/2008/autism_thimerosal.jpg
Denmark removed Thiomersal from all childhood vaccines in 1992...yet childhood autism continued to skyrocket.
As SS pointed out, there has not been a single study to link autism to thiomersal and yes, it has been very well studied.
Main Article:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/12/vaccines-do-not-cause-autism/More from same magazine:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/01/26/vaccines-and-autism-yet-another-dead-link/1st in 2 part series on bunk science of Anti-Vax
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW1IEqKuf6sPosted 4 months ago # -
LPCRoy
MemberTo be honest, I don't know how much more compelling you can get than studies that show when Thiomersal is removed it has 0 effect on autism, it continued to rise. This has been the case in the US, Denmark, Japan, and elsewhere. If the thiomersal in vaccines was causing autism, it wasn't doing a very good job at it.
An important quote from one of the articles I linked to:
If vaccinations decline, then we will see an increase in mumps, measles, rubella, whooping cough (pertussis), and many more terrible afflictions… problems that are ultimately completely curable. This is stone, cold fact. Worse, these problems are far more severe in children.Measles kills.
Pertussis kills.
Rubella kills.
So let me make this as clear as I possibly can:
The antivaccination movement purports to try to save children. Instead, if it is successful it may be condemning millions of them to terrible ailments, and a significant fraction of them to death.
It is that simple.
Posted 4 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
MemberThey don't care about saving children's lives or preventing misery. They only want to show the world how counter-CW they are, and oh, my, look how clever I am.
There is never enough evidence, or they set up straw men arguments (such as requesting to prove a negative,) or they don't consider the diseases prevented as a worthy offset to rare instances of negative reactions. And they refuse to understand how perhaps they or their family escaped whatever disease because the rest of us get vaccinated. They are health free loaders. And fools, bottom line.
Posted 4 months ago # -
again, i'm not saying that thimerosol causes autism. that is not my argument. clearly there are other factors.
but is noone willing to acknowledge the conclusive link between thimerosal and autism in people with mitochondrial dysfunction? nobody has responded to this specific research (again, published in the peer reviewed journal Toxicological and Environmental Chemistry). (lpc, you responded to this specific point on a mitochondrial disorder related autism study with a nationwide epidemiological study which does not in fact invalidate the study i brought up. i respond to your points down below.)
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a910652305~db=all~jumptype=rssfeel free to try to respond to this story of a swine flu vaccine caused neurological disorder. will anyone at least acknowledge that neurological damage is a risk when we are injected with 25 micrograms of mercury? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScGC7nFDxM&feature=popt00us0a
and again, sticking with the facts. we know that thimerosol contains 25 micrograms, or 50,000 parts per billion (ppb) of mercury (ethyl mercury). we know that 200 ppb is enough for the epa to classify something as hazardous waste. we know that 2 ppb is the maximum amount allowed for drinking water in the united states. we also know that fetuses and infants have limited blood brain barrier immunity, so that there is absolutely nothing to stop mercury (a substance known to affect and accumulate in the brain) from crossing into the brain. will anyone acknowledge that this is grounds for concern?
those are my three arguments. susceptible children may get autism from thimerosal, mercury causes various neurological diseases in a very small number of people, and the levels of mercury are much higher than i would consider safe for human exposure. all of this and THIMEROSAL IS COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY. they are only using it in this round (they stopped using it in past vaccines) because it is a good sterilizing agent for the multidose containers. why are we gambling with our lives like this?
and lpc i dont mean to ignore your points (or anyone elses) but looking at that graph from the denmark study it is hard to get anything out of it because the graph doesnt account for age of diagnosis. if, theoretically, thimerosal vaccines can cause asd in some people, we dont know how long the onset would be delayed. it could be years. with the delay, this graph doesn't prove your point. regardless, i am not arguing that thimerosal causes autism generally speaking, and i think there are numerous other sources of neurotoxins at work here, so its a moot point.
and on your point that we know for sure that the viruses vaccines protect us from definitely kill while vaccines maybe kill.. that is valid to some extent. again, i am not arguing against all vaccines or the right to immunize. i am arguing against the lack of safety testing for the additives they put in them (aluminum, mercury, formaldehyde, squalene, antifreeze, antibiotics, detergents, etc) and lack of efficacy studies for the swine flu vaccine (which is being rushed through under the idea that it is safe and it works because the one last year was safe and it worked. this is sloppy science--vaccines don't work like that, every vaccine is different because of the nature of the vaccine production process).
thanks everyone
Posted 4 months ago # -
Ecala
Memberi am arguing against the lack of safety testing for the additives they put in them (aluminum, mercury, formaldehyde, squalene, antifreeze, antibiotics, detergents, etc) and lack of efficacy studies for the swine flu vaccine (which is being rushed through under the idea that it is safe and it works because the one last year was safe and it worked. this is sloppy science--vaccines don't work like that, every vaccine is different because of the nature of the vaccine production process).
I totally get you GFS.
I'm not against vaccines either (I believe for the most part they are necessary).
It's just this one I'm wary of. Well, I don't get flu shots in general, so I wouldn't get this one even if it was "ok".Posted 4 months ago # -
SerialSinner
MemberGFS, I read the research paper you provided and found it quite alarming, until I checked who made it and who funded it:
About the Institute of Chronic Illnesses Inc. : http://tinyurl.com/k5sbh
The paper was funded by COMED: http://mercury-freedrugs.org/ and
Brenen Hornstein Autism Research & Education Foundation: http://www.bhare.org/research.htmlWhenever you come across any dramatic findings that contradict the consensus of the scientific community, it never hurts to check your sources.
Without proper peer reviewing, anything can be published.
Posted 4 months ago # -
SerialSinner
MemberOn a side note, check out Michael Shermer's letter to Bill Maher regarding his anti-vaccination stand: http://tinyurl.com/ygvyz4y
Posted 4 months ago # -
ss - that article about the geiers referenced a different study, and we could debate that issue. clearly, something shady is going on if that article is true. they do have the endorsement of gary null and the journal where they published their findings on mitochondrial dysfunction (toxicological and enviornmental chemistry) is a renowned publication. so i dont know what to make of the discrepancy. it is my belief that the mitochondrial dysfunction study is valid, as it was peer reviewed and has yet to be rescinded. as for corroborating anecdotal evidence, i have two things to say. firstly, according to gary null, the geiers were skeptical of the thimerosal/autism link, but their research proved them wrong. secondly, i have heard this study referenced by a mainstream doctor on national news during a debate (he was pro-vaccine but acknowledged this study). (i forget the source, but it was a mainstream media outlet news video segment)
here is another study from the geiers which i quite like the parameters of
One of the Geiers more recent studies, sponsored by the Office for Human Research Protections, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, screened a group of autistic children with only known exposure to mercury via vaccine thimerosal. Eight of the nine patients screened—each who was developing normally prior to the manifestation of encephalopathic traits—were exposed to significantly higher mercury levels from Thimerosal-containing biologic/vaccine preparations during their fetal/infant developmental periods, and subsequently, between 12 and 24 months of age. The follow adverse effects were common to each of the children under investigation.:
•
had regressive ASDs ;
•
had elevated levels of androgens;
•
excreted significant amounts of mercury post chelation challenge;
•
had biochemical evidence of decreased function in their glutathione pathways;
•
had no known significant mercury exposure except from Thimerosal-containing vaccines/Rho(D)-immune globulin preparations;
•
had alternate causes for their regressive ASDs ruled out.
Their conclusions are that thimerosal intoxication should be considered as a component in the diagnosis of some regressive ASDs.163
Many pregnant women are administered an injection of Rho(D) immuno globulins, better known as TCRs, containing thimerosal. Drs. David and Mark Geier conducted a race-matched controlled study of Rh negative women who received TCRs, the toxicity levels and effects of mercury on neonatal development, and the rate of autism in children.164 The results showed that autistic children were significantly more likely to have Rh-negative mothers than those in the control group, and that each ASD child’s mother was determined to have been administered a TCR with thimerosal during her pregnancy. The implications of the study seem to indicate that unborn children exposed to mercury by their mothers having received drugs and/or vaccines containing thimerosal might contribute to later neurological impairment.anyway, take the geiers or leave them. how do you respond to the other points i raised? what about the woman severely impaired by the swine flu vaccine in the video presented above? what about the fact that thimerosal has 250 times as much mercury as toxic waste, and is injected into fetuses, who have limited (if any) blood brain barrier immunity? we know there are risks; why gamble with these toxic adjuvants?
i read the letter to bill maher. first of all, i dislike how the author derides all of "alternative medicine" as if it was something "fall prey to." second of all, there are no facts to presented for me to even argue with; it is an opinion piece.
btw check out dr. russell blaylock interviewed by dr. mercola. this segment is about vaccines and autism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLUkvNH4Mr4&feature=sub
Posted 4 months ago # -
LPCRoy
MemberSo...much...bad science...so little time
RE: Ethyl Mercury
Ethyl Mercury has a half life of 5 days in the body, unlike, say Methyl Mercury which has a half life of 45 days. Your Tuna Sashimi is MUCH more harmful that the mercury found in a shot. Ethyl Mercury is quite different from Methyl Mercury.
http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/thiomersal/statement_jul2006/en/
Further, ethyl mercury is actively excreted via the gut unlike methyl mercury that accumulates in the body.
SS did a great job debunking your "study". When COMED obliterates a world wide disease like Small Pox or Polio, maybe I'll listen to them over the WHO. Who do you trust more? A UN group that's eradicated two of the deadliest illnesses known to man, or a small interest group?
RE: Denmark study.
Your criticism of the Denmark study falls squarely in the realm of the Ad Hoc Hypothesis http://www.skepdic.com/adhoc.html , also favored by AIDS denialists and creationists. If there is any correlation between thiomersal and autism it is too small to be measurable in any of the populations studied. WHO, NIH, CDC...all find NO correlation. Vaccination, on the other hand, has such a profound effect it is undeniable. If you vaccinate populations, they don't get deadly diseases which kill by the hundreds of thousands.RE: Thiomersal is not required
The fact of the matter is we need to vaccinate as many people as quickly as possible, and that means multiple dose are required. If you have multiple doses in a vial, you need a preservative like thiomersal. Keep in mind the Gov't runs most of the Swine Flu production facilities in the US, so it's not some shadowy corporate. For that, I'll go back to my point that the vaccination industry is so small believing they are executing some kind of conspiracy is beyond laughable.SS brought up an excellent point...is there ANY amount of data that would convince you otherwise?
Posted 4 months ago # -
Someone asked a few pages back whether H1N1 was having a big impact in the US. My son, a freshman in high school, was home all last week with influenza-like illness (ILI, which is an acronym for "we think you have the flu but aren't testing you since you're low-risk"). This afternoon, the high school announced that they are CLOSING SCHOOL for the rest of the week (Wed, Thurs, & Fri) because so many kids are out sick. My son said a sixth of the student body was absent at the beginning of the day, and by the end of the day today so many kids had gone home that it was up to a quarter! This is a school of ~600 that is infamous for almost never closing for terrible weather even when every elementary school is closed.
Posted 4 months ago # -
thanks for debating everyone. im going to make one more point and that will be it for me. if you post a follow up i will read but i will not respond. oddly enough, i got the swine flu! how bout that! after a good deal of raw garlic, raw cayenne pepper, green foods powder, fresh veg juice, soup with mineral rich broths (kombu, kilbasa, chicken + various veg), wild oregano drops every couple hours, 15000mg vit c/day, and nutrition lectures while lying on the couch, im feelin pretty good to go on the third day, today.
i just want to point out a theory on autism presented by carol simontacchi, a certified clinical nutritionist, specialist in neurodevelopmental disorders and other aspects of brain development, author of The Crazy Makers (a book about how processed food, additives, food colorings, excitotoxins, unkownchemicals, etc. affect childhood behavior).
this theory was explained in an interview on underground wellness radio recently - http://www.blogtalkradio.com/undergroundwellness (the discussion on vaccines is near the end, after about 50 minutes if youre interested, but the whole discussion is excellent)
as the brain of a fetus and burgeoning child develops, it goes through a number of important stages that have lasting impacts on that child's future. one stage might involve the development of motor coordination, or visual understanding, or the ability to speak. thats how brain development works: it is not a linear process; there are various stages of development going on at any one time.
important here is the fact that the blood brain barrier is not fully developed in children, and children with methylation (a form of detoxification) disorders are especially at risk. simontacchi's theory is that when substances known to impact the brain enter into the body, they will have an impact on the stage of development the brain is in. so if the brain is developing the ability to recognize faces when a disrupter is presented, that child might have difficulty recognizing faces in the future.
now, this could go for mercury (or other vaccines adjuvants: squalene, formaldehyde, aluminum, etc), or aspartame, or endocrine disrupters, or a number of other toxins.
simontacchi warns that because mercury is a heavy metal, it will sink to the bottom of the multi-dose vials the swine flu vaccine is being distributed in; if the vial is not shaken vigorously (she found evidence that it often wasnt) one kid is going to get all of the mercury. she found kids who tested off the charts for mercury post vaccines.
she also found kids who overnight went downhill after a vaccine. numerous case studies (which may be a better measure than epidemiological studies here) confirm this.
theres nothing to debate about this because i cant prove it, it's just a theory. take it or leave it. i think there are grounds for concern, especially when our babies are being given dozens and dozens of vaccines during infancy, oftentimes 5 or more in one day. we know for a fact vaccines carry risks; if you dont believe that, try getting your doctor to say that the vaccine he is giving you is 100% safe in writing.
thats all
take care everybody
Posted 4 months ago # -
LPCRoy
MemberSam, that's not a theory, it's a hypothesis. A hypothesis is great, it's the starting point of science. The idea that vaccines cause childhood disorders was a valid hypothesis, just as the idea that AIDS was caused by drug use was a valid hypothesis at the time. The way a hypothesis becomes a theory is through thorough testing of both the hypothesis and the null-hypothesis (tests to try to disprove the hypothesis). Problem here is that study after study has disproved both of these hypotheses, therefore killing them in their tracks.
A hypothesis can be as sound as can be, but without evidence, it is not a theory and should be moved on from.
Posted 4 months ago # -
SerialSinner
Member"Dystonic" Cheerleader Cured! Anti-Vax FRAUD
Thought it might be of interest :D
Posted 4 months ago # -
Katt
MemberAnd here we all were on another thread thinking that the best thing that could happen to humanity's population explosion would be decline in numbers... perhaps those diseases were here for just that purpose, and having found our way around them, we have now cooked our own goose. ;)
Ok, that was somewhat tongue in cheek for anyone who can't tell, but I did find it rather ironic that on one thread we're discussing that less people is better and on another, we're worried about people dying.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Brit
MemberIt's funny. We do the primal lifestyle like our ancestors, yet we "need" vaccines. Well, viral evolution is a lot faster than human evolution. As a medical professional and a father/husband, etc... if your Dr. recommends it for certain reasons, you should probably get it.
As for people who haven't had the flu in years: There are dozens, if not hundreds strains of the flu. The seasonal flu shot protects against the ones (top 10, like) that are expected to be particularly virulent that season. If you don't get the flu, you either weren't exposed to it, you were previously exposed to the strain and have developed antibodies, you got the flu shot, or you just happen to have a very good immune system.
The standard flu and H1N1 are made the same way as far as I know, so the safety is relatively the same. Yes, there are side effects and yes, on RARE occasions, someone gets really sick.
Bottom line: If you're in a high-risk group get it. Afterall, you're still getting your tetanus shots right? Something our 10,000 year old bretheren didn't need...but now a days you DO! Hep A? Hep B? Are you traveling? Yellow fever? Typhoid immunization? HPV? Pneumonia? People generally don't think twice about these and it's something they likely won't get anyway. SO what's all the fuss about the flu/H1N1 when your more likely to get that?
Posted 3 months ago #
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