H1N1 Vaccine .. safe or using fear to make $$?
(145 posts) (46 voices)-
LPCRoy
MemberJust as OTB said, Squalene really isn't an issue. Correlation is not equal to Causation...otherwise we'd hand out TVs to the third world because TV ownership is highly correlated with income. As wikipedia states, squalene is commonly found in the general population, regardless of vaccination, so it's not significant that some people with Gulf War Syndrome had a resistance.
Squalene has become the Anti-Vaccinations next target after it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Thiomersal was inert. After much pressure to do so, Thiomersal was removed from child vaccines under the doctrine of precaution (they can create single dosage shots that don't need Thiomersal to preserve them between dosages...since there is a relatively easy alternative, it was removed not because it was shown to cause harm, but because it couldn't hurt to remove it). Thiomersal was long believed by the anti-vaccination movement to cause autism in children. 6 years after it's removal, Autism is still rising (most likely due to better diagnostics rather than just labeling a child as slow or retarded, not due to vaccination)
The grapevine is the reason polio is still around and diseases like whooping cough and the mumps (in the UK the MMR vaccine was rumored to cause problems) are rising. It really can't be emphasized enough that vaccines are not big business, they are a drop in the bucket to big pharma. Vaccines are well studied and proven to be effective and safe.
I feel like a lot of people here get reactionary to CW just because we believe all CW is bad. Some CW is good...some of it has saved untold millions of lives. The CW that is bad has the science fall apart behind it, like the food pyramid or diet culture. That's the wonderful part about science...it's always challenging itself. I just saw a talk from a life long vegan at Stanford stating that Atkins was more effective and healthier in every measurable way than a vegan, low fat diet. That's HUGE. In the wired article, they talk about how one of the fathers of vaccination was against reintroducing the smallpox vaccine. Vaccination isn't just a blind issue...It's well studied and challenged. Study after study has failed to link vaccination to any of the purported ill effects. Thanks to vaccination, children no longer have to die horrible deaths from preventable diseases.
Posted 4 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
MemberAs mentioned on the original, big vaccination thread, I was a "Polio Pioneer." One of the first kids to ever get the Salk vaccine.
Parents dread every summer because that's when their kids caught polio. The vaccine was a blessing without compare and I am damned glad I got it. And someday when I travel to Africa I will most assuredly get all the recommended shots.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Gee I cant think of any particular reason for mercury to come into contact with the human body full stop. but I guess thats just me.
I think if you want be vaccinated redundantly as an adult then go ahead.I just had to be vaccinated for MMR as an ADULT because I am immigrating to the US. I didnt have a choice, it was either suck it up or not be with my intended. I am in my mid forties have had measles and rubella shots in my teens, but missed out on the mumps, so had to get the triple shot because my stupid arse doctor isnt out of school long enough to figure it out and I didnt know at the time that I could get a single dose. I also have a friend that had his hep b shots to join the emergency services and that combined with his amalgam fillings nearly did him in, in fact he is still recovering three years later.
Posted 4 months ago # -
klcarbaugh
MemberDon't make your decision based off to people on this thread because they all have biased opinions. Go to organization's websites like http://www.nvic.org/.
This is also interesting to consider- it is true (though it is biased):
http://mercola.fileburst.com/PDF/swine-flu/swine-flu-poster-colored.pdfPosted 4 months ago # -
LPCRoy
MemberStating that vaccines contain mercury is analgous to saying table salt contains the deadly neurotoxin Chlorine. Thiomersal is a molecule that contains mercury, just as salt is a molecule that contains both chlorine and sodium.
I would hardly say that NVIC is unbiased. They don't want to hear things like every peer reviewed study has failed to link vaccination to autism, or that Thiomersal has been determined to be safe time and time again. Again, their big crusade was to remove Thiomersal because they believed it caused autism (with no scientific support). It was removed, and yet, autism continues to rise.
Posted 4 months ago # -
I feel like a lot of people here get reactionary to CW just because we believe all CW is bad. Some CW is good...some of it has saved untold millions of lives. The CW that is bad has the science fall apart behind it, like the food pyramid or diet culture. That's the wonderful part about science...it's always challenging itself.
You have identified a key issue that has been troubling me: the blind rejection of conventional wisdom. As you mention, conventional wisdom is not bad simply because it is conventional wisdom; it is the underlying flawed science that invalidates portions of conventional wisdom.
Everyone seems to unanimously condemn blind adherence to conventional wisdom. However, blind rejection of conventional wisdom is just as troubling.
While the blogosphere grapevine presents an unprecedented opportunity for sharing information, it also presents an unregulated platform for the dissemination of misinformation. Critical thinking becomes evermore necessary in the information age, yet seems to be sadly underutilized.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Blind rejection maybe your perception however I consider it questioning CW, and for the most part the participants here do so intelligently. true enough, vaccinations for TB and a host of other diseases have saved many many lives.
Personally I dont care if its even a molecule of mercury, thats too much in my considered opinion to go anywhere near my body. I am fit and healthy and my diet is pretty good, plus I keep tabs on my vit d levels. I have had little in the way of colds and virtually no flu for seven years, despite prolonged exposure to a poor ventilation system and people coughing and hacking around me at my previous place of employment. Interestingly the woman closest in age to me at work, had a poor diet, was overweight and did no exercise and she was the one that was sick virtually every two weeks. In fact her face was red and blotchy from the inflammation going on in her body. She might be a good candidate for a flu vac, I am not.
Posted 4 months ago # -
chocolatechip69
MemberI was kind of surprise to learn about the resent poll on parents vaccinating their kids against H1N1. 40 % out of a 100% said they will not do it.
Speaking from a personal experience, I do believe that person's immune system and a healthy diet play an important role with this flu. I have had a swine flu about a month ago and I was back on my feet in exactly 48 hrs. I heard it lasts for about a week on average. My body was on fire for about a day but the next day I was good to go. I still had to stay home for another extra day because my employer didn't want me around, but the whole process was relatively painless.
I did not have a shot nor will I be getting one. I never had any flu shots.
Posted 4 months ago # -
I guess that this is a US-biased conversation. Here in the UK, there was lots of hype about H1N1 and then over the summer it calmed down. Now it's started to ramp up again as winter approaches.
I don't know the right answer - it's different for everyone. This H1N1 virus is no worse than ordinary flu, which in the UK kills more people than is advertised. It just seems to me that these days, the media have to hype everything up to be so frightening, that we turn into sheep and do as we are told.
I won't be getting the vaccine, if it is ever offered to people that don't work in the health service, public office and people 'at risk'. I had a flu vaccine once when it was part of my previous employer's policy to do so - I have never had a worse winter before or since for terrible colds.
My great-uncle died from the Spanish flu after he came back from the trenches of WW1. But then he had been caught in a mustard gas attack and only had 50% lung capacity. He might heve benefited.
Posted 4 months ago # -
LPCRoy
MemberPersonally I dont care if its even a molecule of mercury, thats too much in my considered opinion to go anywhere near my body.
My point exactly...this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of science and chemistry. Salt contains two elements that alone, are deadly to humans...sodium and chlorine. As individual atoms, they would kill you...but are harmless when they form a molecule. That is the fundamental difference between an element and a molecule. That's not to say that we shouldn't study it and do the science to ensure it's safe...but that science has largely been done and in the dosages present in vaccines, it's safe. Methylmercury, the kind found in fish, can accumulate in the body and cause damage. Ethylmercury clears the body rather quickly. Again, some may see that there is just a one letter difference and draw a line of correlation, but again, that's bad science. It's much more valid to worry about the mercury in your food and in your environment (Do you use CFL lighting? They contain some mercury vapor...)
Awesome link Serial Sinner...one of the data points they give there is that table salt is almost 2x as deadly as squalene.
Posted 4 months ago # -
chocolatechip69
MemberHas anybody caught an episode of The Doctors? I just got back from my lunch work-out and there was a TV on. What a timely topic.
They talked about everything from Squalene to why pregnant women should be vaccinated. I have to say, I got pretty depressed watching it. They got some big wigs on the show who were absolutely not convincing and very cocky. Way to convince the "general public".Posted 4 months ago # -
Blind rejection maybe your perception however I consider it questioning CW...
I fully agree that conventional wisdom should be questioned. However, the "answers" that one finds must also be questioned. I have yet to see any substantial support for the anti-vaccine stance. All I see are conspiracy theories, emotional appeals, and personal testimonials. None of these things serve as valid evidence in condemning vaccines.
Posted 4 months ago # -
chocolatechip69
MemberHere's one other thing I was wandering. Where are statistics that show that people that get the H1N1 shot or spray do not get the flu afterwards? EVeryone says the process of making this vaccine is very similar to seasonal flu and the virus itself behaves in a similar way, but I've seen way too many cases of people getting seasonal flu shots and then coming down with the virus few weeks later.
Posted 4 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
MemberLPCRoy, I've brought up many of your points in other discussions here. Even the salt one, and SS's about dosage. It doesn't matter how often it is pointed it that it is not only the WHAT but the HOW MUCH. I've tried explaining LD50 and LD100 toxicity.......
I used to participate on a photochemistry forum. There were people there who would just freak out at the thought of using a thiocyanate compound in their house or going down the drain. Too close in the English language to "cyanide." Emotional "thinking" despite being told that one is not the other.
There are people here that either are absolutely ignorant about science and refuse to learn, or their emotional reactions outweigh any objectivity.
Posted 4 months ago # -
LPCRoy, thanks for sharing your superior scientific knowledge with us. It makes absolutely no difference to me whether thiomersal is salt or not, I understand that it converts to ethyl mercury which is cleared faster by the body, compared to methyl mercury. I will be limiting my exposure to it where I have control over it.
Better living through chemistry, thats probably why we are in the state we are in currently.
OTB, it seems to be a recurrent theme with you that anytime anyone happens to disagree with you they are ignorant, emotional and lacking in objectivity. It appears you are unable to make a point without resorting to what is tantamount to name calling. And that, is an observation.
Posted 4 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
MemberIt's a correct observation.
Decisions about scientific matters (i.e., chemistry, biology, molecules, the speed of light) should be made as objectively as possible with the best information available. (Granted, sometimes that changes.)
And that process precludes fear and emotion as qualifiers to make a decision.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Ecala
MemberOh my gosh, this is crazy.
I just read this over at the Daily Lipid:Hysteria over the swine flu is building. In Massachusetts, for example, a statute passed both houses of the legislature allowing the governor to declare an emergecy and authorize police to vaccinate the population, taking children from parents, and incarcerating those who fail to comply without a trial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKr8fuKcYkw&feature=player_embeddedPosted 4 months ago # -
eva
Memberhb had the swineflu 2 weeks ago and i stayed at home to take care of him- he had it bad- 40 deg celsius fever, arythmia...
i didnt get the flu, dont remember when ive last had one. im primal (have been for years) and he is not. i do think nutrition plays a role. and so does vit. D. No shot for me.
My 2 centsPosted 4 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
MemberHello, anyone take the time to read this law?????? I did, at least the Senate version.
1. It's amending the 1950 public medical emergency law, just like many laws get amended. It is not H1N1 specific. The implementation of this law is geographic specific, not state wide.
2. We've always had quarantines in this country. Don't get your undies in a knot, just because two generations have never seen a quarantine sign on a house. Isolating a carrier is good policy, so sorry for the inconvenience. Rather you would catch your neighbor's disease?
3. It actually provides safeguards about identities in medical records.
4. While inoculation may be mandated, you still have a choice: "An individual who is unable or unwilling to submit to vaccination or treatment shall not be required to submit to such procedures but may be isolated or quarantined pursuant to section 96 of chapter 111 if his or her refusal poses a serious danger to public health or results in uncertainty whether he or she has been exposed to or is infected with a disease or condition that poses a serious danger to public health, as determined by the commissioner, or a local public health authority operating within its jurisdiction."
5. There are other safeguards like quarantines must be the "least restrictive," you can't lose your job due to quarantine, respecting religious artifacts and cremated remains, and health insurance cannot cancel coverage, must pay bills, etc.
NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT YOUR KIDS BEING TAKEN AWAY AND VACCINATED!
Youtube, jackbootedthugs.com, and mostly, Faux Gnus are not good, objective sources. That should be obvious, but apparently not.
Once again, my observations about emotional decision making stand.
Posted 4 months ago # -
OTB - Thank you.
My pandemic training last night covered [in detail] work practice regarding mandatory vaccination for at-risk professions (namely healthcare) and that there are indeed exceptions that can be taken in the case of allergic reaction or religious restriction.
I'll be getting the H1N1 vaccine in a couple weeks voluntarily.
The hype and hysteria is absolute b/s. The only real hype is that it can affect a workforce simultaneously and kill off my 5 remaining vacation days in no time.
So therefore, shoot me up Scotty.
Posted 4 months ago #
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