Do you guys ever doubt low carb?
(94 posts) (37 voices)-
bobbylight
BlockedOk, let me first state a bit about me before I get into my question. I started the PB about 6 weeks ago, and I feel great. I was about 295 pounds when I started (at a very stalky 5'7) and I was probably about 110 pounds overweight (I am 23 now, but wrestled at 171 in high and I think that I have put on quite a bit of muscle since then, so I am guessing my ideal weight is about 185). Anyway, right now I am somewhere in the 260's. I feel great, and the weight comes off quickly, and my endurance just keeps on getting better. I love how the PB makes me feel and I understand the concepts of it. I will undoubtedly keep on this diet until I get down to my ideal weight (because it works and I like it and I have energy while doing it) but after that, I'm not so sure.
Sometimes I doubt the effects of low carb. I know that everyone here is pretty much in the boat that carbs are bad for you, but do you guys ever doubt this too? Do you ever think "hey, maybe in 40 years I will really regret this diet."
I recently started looking at lyle mcdonald's website. He is definitely knowledgeable about the subject and his opinions are quite interesting. One thing he states that vilifying a whole food group (carbs, or even fat for the ornish group) is stupid and counterproductive. He basically states that different people need different things nutritionally, and many people cannot function properly on a ketogenic diet. He also seems to state that a lot about how people are eating has to do with their situation. For instance, something that is very healthy for an athlete can be very unhealthy for a fat person, or vice versa.
I don't know, I just find myself doubting this low carb thing. I know I will stay on this diet for a while (because it is working and I feel great) but I am starting to think that it might not be in my best interests in terms of longevity. I guess I will see though, right?
I'm not meaning to stir things up, I just want to hear what you guys have to say and want to know if any of you have had doubts as well.
Posted 4 months ago # -
kuno1chi
Memberbobby,
We're not saying carbs are bad.
We're saying grains are bad. And sugars, especially fructose. And Frankenfoods.What we ARE saying is: animals are good. Especially grass-fed/pastured/wild-caught. Most vegetables, especially organically-grown, are good. Exercise and play are good.
I'm not seeing anything to doubt.
Read Primal Blueprint.Posted 4 months ago # -
soror
MemberAs many times as I have had what I thought to be healthy completely change I hesitate to state anything definitive diet wise. However, I do try to be honest in assessing how what I am eating makes me feel. I know for me that eating more "primal" makes me feel good. So, that is what I try to do. I know before I went completely gluten free and I tried to do grainfree but letting gluten in on my slips my performance in workouts was not near as good. I often lacked adequate energy and even though I felt better than when on grains my performance level was not great. As to how low carb I need to be I just play that by ear and day to day. As to what I will be eating long time who knows for sure.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Jess
MemberI believe primal eating is only "low-carb" in comparison to an AAD (average American diet.) It isn't necessarily ketogenic, because remember a primal/paleo diet not only consists of meat, eggs, and fat (~0 carbs), but lets not forget the abundance of fresh vegetables, in addition to a little fruit and nuts that should be supplemented into your meals as well. If you're talking about needing whole grains, I'm assuming you didn't read enough information on this website. ;) If you look back to the beginning of the food pyramid, a lot of those people behind the scenes were crazed vegetarians that did NOT have the right knowledge to be designing a "healthy" national diet. ALWAYS question things. Don't you find it peculiar that other cultures/countries have different food pyramids?... What the government says in America certainly isn't the "be-all." If it was, well, we'd probably all be screwed. ;)
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight
Blockedkuno, I agree with you, but sometimes I doubt that grains are all that bad to be honest. I mean the mediteranean diet is shown in studies to be very beneficial to health and that has a lot of grains. Also many studies have shown that increased levels of whole grains seem to be associated with reduced risk for many health problems.
In the same line of thinking, I have seen MANY studies stating that saturated fats are related to a lot of health problems. Just about any study that looks at saturated fats state this actually. I just don't know what to do.
Things that I do agree on though are that meat, veggies, fruit, and nuts are all very good for me, and processed food is not.
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight
BlockedJess, I find it funny that you say to always question things, because that is exactly what I am doing right now :).
Anyway, I definitely do not need whole grains, but maybe some grains here or there would be better for my all around health. I don't know though. I need to really look into it. Either way I will still be eating primal at the least until I get to my goal weight, because it is working and I like how I feel.
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight
BlockedI posted a topic on lyle mcdonald's forums (and he posts in them very regularly) about the paleo diet to see what they say over there about it. Here is a link if you guys are interested...and if you want to know about lyle, check out what he has to say in his forums and what he has to say on his website http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/ ...guy seems very well informed and does a lot of research on the subject. Anyway, here is a link to the thread.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Geoff
MemberBL -
You seem to have made some remarkable changes quickly with PB. Congratulations on your accomplishments so far.
Doubt can be good, but, as someone else here once wrote: "You don't want to be so open minded that your head falls off." It's understandable to wonder what new information we might know in 40 years and whether you are now making the best decisions you can for your long term health. Still, we can't let doubt about the future paralyze us in the now. All we can do each day is make the best decision we can for ourselves based on what we know now. We might turn out ultimately to have been wrong, but if we are all wrong at least then we'll know it was because we were misinformed (albeit not intentionally), not because we were ignorant fools. Cold comfort, perhaps, but I don't know what the future holds any better than you. I just try to make the smartest choices I can each day and leave worry about the future for when I get there.
If you've read Mark's writings and still have lingering doubts, then there's probably very little I, or anyone else here, can write to assuage you. However, the remarkable changes in your body and how you feel should tell you that you are making progress and help address your doubts. I like your idea of sticking with it until you reach your target. If you still doubt have some blood work done now and again when you meet your goal and compare the results.
If you switch back to eating grains after you meet your weight goal you should get a clear idea then of whether the switch was right based on how you feel and whether you start regaining weight. After all, we're all "experiments of one." Some, like Clarence Bass, achieve remarkable results in health and fitness in spite of consuming grains. Others don't prosper with even a small bit. It's your life, your body, your health, your responsibility. So, as you're already doing, get informed, stay informed, monitor your health, and then make the decisions that you believe will yield the results you seek.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Nope. Carbohydrate restriction has always made sense, and the more I learn -- both in theory and my own practical experience -- the more supported by the evidence it appears.
Also, nothing can convince me that grains are suitable for human consumption except when starvation is the only alternative.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Everyone is different. People have asked me about how I 'manage' on such a low calorie intake. I tell them what works for me, but always say that their reaction may be different. As for whether I doubt the low-carb aspect - no, not for me. It works. But then I am cutting out grains and I have a gluten allergy, so it's very beneficial for my specific situation.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Vick
Member"Do you ever think "hey, maybe in 40 years I will really regret this diet?" "
Great question! In 40 years we want to be in prime shape. I’ll only be 93. To achieve that I’ll need to be disease free, have strength for mobility and a clear head free of dementia.
Our modern western diet which places grains at the bottom of the food pyramid has changed our omega 3 to omega 6 ratios. This has affected our natural immune system. By affecting our natural immune system this had lead to inflammatory (chronic) diseases such as arthritis, diabetes, heart disease, forms of dementia etc. One of the key problems that relates to this is insulin resistance. Low insulin numbers is a common factor in people who live a long time. High insulin and insulin resistance appears to occur in high carbs, high sugar, fructose enriched diets.
A study at McMaster University in Hamilton, Canada confirmed that High Intensity Training affected 179 genes related to aging. The genes changed their expression, reversing the aging process. High Intensity Training lows insulin resistance. High Intensity training builds muscle and bone mass without beating up on the joints when done correctly.
What route appears to provide me the best opportunity to be healthy at 93?
Embark on a diet that brings my omega 3-6 ratio back to a 1:2 – 1:1 ratio range. This means cutting out grains, and other starchy carbs. Basically that is a PB diet. This is the most important thing I can do to fuel my body, provide nutrients for growth and repair, and provide my immune system with the proper nutrients to do its job. Lower carbs will help me (since I assume I have insulin resistance) with insulin resistance to help keep my insulin numbers down.
Lift heavy things and allow the body to repair and grow. This will help with reversing the aging process, help build muscle mass and bone density for mobility and it works to keep the insulin numbers down.
Posted 4 months ago # -
PaleoMom
MemberYou might enjoy reading Primal Body-Primal Mind. It is all about longevity and a primal, very low carb diet. She is very convincing that eating this way, with much less carbs that PB even, is the best way to long term health and life extension. Her book his heavily based and sited with research not opinion.
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight
BlockedThanks for the replies. Basically I am going to play it by ear. Right now I will stick with what I am doing because I am losing weight and it is doing well. If I hit a plateau I will look to switch my diet up a bit and see how it works. I am just going to keep doing research and come up with the best possible diet I can keep. Also, Vick, funny you mention Mcmaster (as well as it's location) because I currently attend Mcmaster University.
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight
BlockedI have noticed that a lot of people here have said that they hit a plateau and can't keep losing. The general consensus seems to be to cut out even more carbs and raise the fat intake. Maybe they should try to other way around...maybe we should see what happens to the plateau if they raise their carbs a little and cut fat. Apparently people have had success with that when they hit a plateau on a low carb diet.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Vick
MemberCheck out their bodpod machine. It is a great piece of technology that measures your body densities, muscle, fat etc.
It will help with measuring fat loss vs fat as well as muscle and bone loss. It is really hard not to lose muscle when losing weight.
Not cheap but you might get a student discount.
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight
BlockedI looked into it. It is 58 bucks apparently. I don't think I need to spend 58 bucks to hear that I am fat and need to lose weight, hahaha. Maybe when I get in really good shape I will check it out to see how far I have come, but for now, I will keep my 58 bucks.
As for losing muscle, I guess I probably am, but it sure doesn't seem like it. I know my legs are getting stronger from all the biking I am doing to and from school, and my abs seem to be getting stronger from the core workouts and situps I do, and my arms seem to be getting stronger from the shadow boxing and burpee/push ups I am doing.
Either way, losing a little bit of muscle and a whole lot of fat is not that big a deal for me. It is the fat I am concerned about.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Del Mar Mel
MemberBL, I sincerely doubt that grains could offer nearly as much nutrition as veggies and fruits which are a crucial part of PB. As Mark says in the book, that is the aspect that you may need to tweak in relation to what sort of physical activity you are doing or what your current goals are. So, depending on your needs, eating PB style doesn't have to be too low carb as Mark makes clear with the different ranges of carb intake.
Presumably, over time you are going to have medical appointments that provide benchmarks of your health with which to compare in the future. You will have numbers to work with along with how you are feeling and performing.
I'm just getting started here and I am coming from a mostly plant based background. I will likely try omitting instances of using items like mayo in favor of avocado. Little tweaks like that may make some sense considering the relatively high consumption of animal products. But overall, you're not going to find more nutrient packed carbs than fruits and veggies.
Posted 4 months ago # -
groquette
MemberI have seen MANY studies stating that saturated fats are related to a lot of health problems. Just about any study that looks at saturated fats state this actually.
I have seen many studies that say all sorts of things — the problem with a very large number of studies that have to do with food and nutrition is that they are extremely poorly designed.
An even bigger problem (as I see it) is that so many people seem to be emotionally attached to what they want to be the right answer, which tends to make for bad science.
Ancel Keys (the guy who freaked out about cholesterol and pushed low-fat politically when the scientific community was very much undecided) has been criticized for leaving out data which didn't support his hypothesis. He had reliable data from 22 countries, but only used data from 7 countries. His trend line was unbelievable, until you added the rest of the data (no correlation available). Worse, even if you just go with the seven sets of data and ignore the rest, he STILL didn't do a very good job of analyzing it (he performed the regression only in one direction).
So while everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and nobody is really entitled to their own facts, it is very, very difficult to ascertain what those facts are. You're stuck with evaluating your sources, and observing the effect that whatever choices you make on your own health.
If you want to be scientific about it, get some blood-work done, keep track of various measurements that make sense to you.
Personally, I have extreme reactions to grains and sugar, and I thrive on fat. So far, anyway!
Posted 4 months ago # -
Vivian
Membersometimes veggies can get a little boring...my family eats lots of roots and tubers and cooking fruits such as yucca, plantain (ripe and green), name (a type of root), and many others that i dont know how to translate. their really good boiled then mashed with butter or chopped and baked. i think they can be part of a healthy primal diet; i eat them a few times a week and i actually feel much better than eating just meat and fat and veggies all the time. i would recommend experimenting with them to see if you like it to add some variety in your diet and perhaps break a plateau.
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight
BlockedBasically, I think the point that the people on lyle's forums are making (and lyle himself) is that eating grains every day can be part of a healthy diet. I must say though that a piece of bread or any grain is not going to have the nutrition of a sweet potato or something like that. BUT, if a sandwich a day on whole grain bread keeps you sane, it will not effect your overall goals as long as you are keeping your total calories in check and eating enough fruits and vegetables. I think I am starting to lean towards this idea.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Be careful not to confuse Primal with Paleo.
Primal is quite an easygoing "whole lifestyle" approach - but PLEASE read up on the grains. I don't want to bog you down with details, but plants and animals evolve together, in a kind of arms race. Plants don't want to be eaten! But they can't run away - so they produce toxins. They might be immediately obvious (deadly nightshade, etc) or they might just interfere with digestion. Now think how precious a plant's seeds are, they will concentrate the toxins there for protection. Grains = seeds.Primal can still be relatively higher carb - think root veggies, sweet potatoes, and so on.
Paleo is a much stricter, considered way of eating, taking into account natural seasonal variations (hence restrictions on e.g. fruits, nuts).
The "low carb" facet of both though is similar - it is pretty much an accidental byproduct.
The only reason I'm currently counting carbs is because I need to lose weight, and I'm still learning what foods and meals work well.Keep on with Primal, as you suggest, then re-evaluate when you're ready though.
There are a few posts on the main MDA pages about grains though.Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight,
And then we get back to the whole subject of thriving vs. surviving.
Every step you take back to the "it's probably OK to do this, because it can be healthy" brings you closer back to "surviving" and less towards "thriving."
And personally, I think that's totally cool.
I completely believe in having some fun, "cheating" on your normal diet, etc.
But I'm just bringing up the point that although something can be tolerated by your body and can be "technically" healthy, (as defined by a pretty "unhealthy" world) does not mean it's the best thing to do.
-SeanPosted 4 months ago # -
Niklas
MemberLyle is right that there are people that don't function well in ketosis and never adapt. But low-carb doesn't have to be ketogenic and on a LC diet you still can have a generous amount of carbs. Not even Atkins demonized carbs and called his diet "controlled carbohydrate nutrition"
I try to listen to my body and never turn my nutrition into an ideology. What I mean is that as long as my body likes the way I eat I will do it, but screw the theory if my body won't like it anymore I will change it. So I'm not too afraid of making "mistakes". People who make mistakes are those who keep following a diet even if they feel like shit because they treat it like a religion.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Get Primal
MemberAs usual I have a very simplistic view of things. If you are extremely overweight, wouldn't you think the diet that brings you to your optimal weight in a healthy manner would be the one you'd want to follow? If you're accomplishing your goal (and it sounds like you are) with a very low carb diet, why would you assume it's not healthy and want to change as soon as you reach your goal?
If you really want to know how healthy any diet is, go and have an NMR lipid profile test done. Eat a specific diet, any kind, and test again in 6-9 months. Compare the results and you'll know exactly how healthy that diet was. Clearly there are additional factors but the condition of the liquid running through your arteries is about the best indicator of health I can think of.
Posted 4 months ago # -
bobbylight
BlockedI don't know exactly what I am trying to say here. After thinking about it, I think that primal is the healthiest way to eat. As long as I can stick to it (which I think I can, and I think it will be easier to do as I go along) it seems to be the best. There is no doubt that a sweet potato has more nutrients and is healthier than a piece of bread of the same calories. This pretty much goes for any bread and any vegetable...and most fruits as well.
I don't really know if beans are optimal or not (I know there are reasons to think they are not, but there are also reasons to think that they are) but I don't like beans so I just won't eat them and won't think twice about it.
As for dairy, I am not too sure. I know that many people here do drink milk and even Mark says that yogurt and heavy cream are OK, and even some high quality cheeses are fine every so often. So I will probably reintroduce dairy to my diet once I get to my goal weight (or sooner if I get bored with what I am eating.) Basically I am just scared of not getting enough calcium.
But really, I think I will eat mostly primal whether it is low carb or not in the future.
Posted 4 months ago # -
halloweenbinge
MemberBobbylight, you say you feel great. That seems to me to be "the proof in the pudding."
Studies that say (I hesitate t say 'show') that sat fat is bad for you - think about who does the studies and if perhaps they have a bias or a motive with the results.
Lastly, do you know about the negative effects of too much insulin, or jacking it up and letting it drop a few times a day? That is the biggest factor in why low carb is good, primal vs any kind of food aside, carbohydrates are a degenerative macronutrient. It doesn't mean you need to do zero carb for the rest of your life, but 300 g carbs whether from spaghetti or from fruit, is 300 g of carbs, and too much (for most people).
Posted 4 months ago #
Reply »
You must log in to post.