can a vegetarian ever be primal?
(17 posts) (9 voices)-
maranne
MemberSince the challenge has started I feel overwhelmed by the vast amount of interest this has created on the site. Quite amazing!Anyway...
I saw a member introducing herself and not wanting to pick on anyone I was wondering IF it is even possible to be Primal and a Vegetarian? Doesn't this go against all the fundamental ideas of the PB?
Ideas and comments are welcome.
MariannePosted 7 months ago # -
lady_daraine
MemberI'd say, let them try. While most protein sources from plants aren't really all that good for us, if it helps him/her cut grains and and sugars out of their diet, more power to them.
But, from what I've noticed, most veggies end up eating at least fish and chicken after a while.Posted 7 months ago # -
SerialSinner
MemberMaranne I hope it's possible. My g/f is an emotional vegetarian (so appeals to logic are completely useless). She eats eggs and diary though, so in theory she could be primal by getting her proteins and omega-3s from pastured eggs and meet her daily caloric requirements with food fats.
The problem is how sustainable this is in the long term. Plus I am sure she would have satiety issues without any meat.
If I manage to convince her to give strict primal a go for a month, weight loss and overall wellness might encourage her to make an extra effort. Ideally she would cave into including fish in her diet, although I find that extremely unlikely.
I wish I knew how to make her reconsider her vegetarianism.
Posted 7 months ago # -
marika
MemberI just made a sample menu for someone on another forum, and found if you do dairy and eggs, it could work!
Here's my sample menu:
***
Lacto-Ovo Paleo Menu (REVISED)BREAKFAST:
Two pastured eggs and dandelion greens cooked in olive oil, glass of milk, followed by a bananaSNACK:
Sunflower seedsLUNCH:
Broccoli, carrots and mushrooms sauteed with swiss cheese in olive oil, glass of milk, followed by a "pudding" made of blended pear, banana and avocadoDINNER:
Two pastured eggs sauteed with asparagus in olive oil, glass of milk, followed by an orange and bananaSNACK:
Sunflower seedsTotal Calories: 2107
RATIOS:
Proteins:Carbs:Lipids: 16:30:54
Omega 6:3: 11.6:1 (Seeds made this high)
Deficiencies:
-Vitamin B3 (84% RDA)
-Potassium (91% RDA)
-Sodium (73% RDA)****
All in all, that's really good! I think the potassium and sodium levels are just fine, it's just the B3 that is a little bit low, but really, I don't think it's that bad!
I did use pastured eggs in this calculation, which helps a lot with nutrients! I calculated two eggs at breakfast and dinner, you could add more to bring the protein levels up a bit more.
If you just added a half can of sardines, your B3 would be 101% RDA, potassium would go up to 95% RDA, and sodium would be 89% RDA, so you'd be really set. Also, that would lower your omega 6:3 ratio to 9:1.
Posted 7 months ago # -
marika
Member@maba, I used the Cron-o-meter, http://www.spaz.ca/cronomoter
I bought a kitchen scale and have been weighing everything too, which helps a lot to know for sure how much I'm eating.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Mick
MemberI was wondering IF it is even possible to be Primal and a Vegetarian? Doesn't this go against all the fundamental ideas of the PB?
I'd doubt it. Mark's "PB" seems to put a high value on meat. It's specifically shown in a "pyramid" he published in a blog post yesterday.
I suppose "Can one be healthy and a vegetarian?" is a different question.
I think people can probably get by without that much meat or fish, if they eat enough eggs and dairy products. But once it has to be "none" you're getting into more difficult territory.
The Swiss studied by Weston Price seem to have eaten mostly dairy products and sourdough rye bread with some vegatbles. They only ate meat about once per week. But they did eat it, and I think they ate broth made from bones and scraps of meat on a more regular basis.
Sir Robert McCarrison's studies on Indian diets are of interest here, too. He was Director of Research on Nutrition in India under the British Raj. Southern Indian diets - which included some vegetarian groups - were not good. There were characteristic deficiency diseases, and the people were small and not strong. In northern India, by contrast, there were some very large, strong, and healthy populations. Some of these got most of their protein and animal fat from dairy products, but they did get meat at least once a week.
McCarrison fed hundreds of rats on different Indian diets, and found the rats got the same deficiency diseases, or not, depending on the diets he fed them. The pictures of the rats are quite striking.
http://www.journeytoforever.org/farm_library/McC/McCToC.html
Rats fed mainly on polished rice and vegetables do not grow large. They tend to be less contented, too. Some of MacCarrison's rats on less satisfactory diets were far more aggressive and even bit the handlers.
I'd say the evidence from traditional societies and the experiments with rats tends to suggest that you don't necessarily need much meat, so long as you have enough good-quality animal food from other sources ... but you probably need some.
Vegetarians in Southern India have some of the shortest lifespans in the world. It's apparently been found to be shorter when they move to England. The reason is thought to be that food in India contains insect parts. So better hygiene in the English food distribution system is actually counterproductive, since it stops vegetarians at least unwittingly getting a little animal food in the form of insects.
Posted 7 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
MemberDon't forget, the milk and cheese is definitely not primal per Mark's and Dr. Cordain's dogma. Probably the carbs and protein ratios need to be reversed, too. The bottom line premise of the Primal diet is high fats and proteins, carbs few.
The sunflower seeds iffy, high Omega 6's as you point out. 12:1 ratio is nowhere close to the desired 4:1 or better.
I'm not saying the suggested diet isn't decent and nutritious, and it is certainly a lot better than the SAD, but it isn't Primal by definition.
The bottom line to the question being asked, can a veggie every be primal, the answer is "No." One or the other has to give.
Posted 7 months ago # -
marika
MemberI'm at work but I tried again using no milk or dairy. I don't have the pastured eggs input in my Cron-o-meter here at work (which I just realized I misspelled above in the link I posted, sorry!). So the vitamin D and some other nutrients and omega 3's would be better if I had the pastured eggs. But anyway here it is:
***
Ovo-Paleo Sample MenuBREAKFAST:
Two eggs with crimini mushrooms and spinach sauteed in olive oil, followed by a bananaSNACK:
Sunflower seedsLUNCH:
Two eggs, broccoli, carrots and mushrooms sauteed in olive oil, followed by a "pudding" made of blended pear, banana and avocadoSNACK:
Sunflower seeds and almondsDINNER:
Two pastured eggs with grilled portabella mushroom and sauteed asparagus in olive oil, followed by an orange and bananaTotal Calories: 2004
RATIOS:
Proteins:Carbs:Lipids: 13:25:61
Omega 6:3: 26:1 (Seeds and nuts made this high - use of pastured eggs would help some)
Deficiencies:
-Vitamin D (27% RDA - pastured eggs would help this a LOT)
-Calcium (52% RDA)
-Potassium (93% RDA)
-Sodium (85% RDA)Of course Calcium is low, but mine is low even with eating meat every meal, so I'm not so concerned about that. The Potassium is really quite good and Sodium is nothing to worry about. The vitamin D would be helped much with pastured eggs (and sunshine of course). So, although the ratios of omegas and the protein/carbs/lipids aren't ideal for Primal/Paleo, still I think it shows it is quite possible, as long as you love eggs! :-)
Posted 7 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
MemberMarika, I admire your pluck, but it will never come close to a Paleo/Primal diet guideline.
Look at the Omega ratios.
Look at the protein/carb/lipid ratios.
Look at the vitamin deficiencies. Early on Primal, my only deficiency was Vitamin D.....but this FL summer sun was making what Fitday couldn't count.
Look at the bananas. While Tropical Grok certainly ate them, they would be something to not eat a lot of if one is trying to keep carbs down. And sugars!
You can't get Primal results without a Primal diet. I'm not trying to be pedantic, but your good efforts should show that to be true. It's sort of like saying I want a vegetarian diet but with meat.
Posted 7 months ago # -
SerialSinner
MemberMarika, I do believe it's possible to enjoy all the health rewards of a proper Primal lifestyle while being an ovo-lacteo vegetarian. It's not easy and you'll need to be on top of your game, but as far as I have read, it's feasible.
This is an interesting paper about omega-3 enriched eggs:
Three n-3 PUFA-enriched eggs provide approximately the same amount of n-3 PUFA as one meal with fish.
About calcium:
Lactovegetarians are able to meet recommended calcium intakes and do not have compromised bone mineral densities.
You are also right about the pastured eggs and Vit D:
To keep the omega-6 low you could consider changing the seeds by nuts exclusively (particularly the ones lower in carbs). They'll contribute to balance your protein levels with less impact on Omega-6 than seeds.
Also, if you don't have trouble with diary, you could consider replacing the bananas with very aged cheese (lower in carbs and high in fat) or more avocados. Getting rid of the bananas will help you a lot with the carb levels as well.
Posted 7 months ago # -
lady_daraine
MemberOTB - I'd like to reference the following post for you-
Especially this part:
"So depending on your sensitivities, cheese could either be incredibly agreeable or horribly antagonistic. It exists in Primal limbo along with raw dairy, a sort of gray area. On the one hand, cheese has admirable levels of fat, protein, and flavor, but on the other, it has the lactose and casein issues (as well as another, which I’ll get to later). As such, I can’t give you a definitive answer as to whether or not you should eat cheese. Personally, I enjoy a bit of aged cheese on occasion paired with fruit or wine, or in an omelet. It’s not a staple of my diet (don’t pull a George Costanza and eat a block of cheese like an apple), but it can definitely add texture, flavor, and aroma to a dish as a sensible vice. If you’re so inclined, there’s no reason cheese couldn’t be a harmless part of a healthy Primal diet."There is no reason someone couldn't have cheese as a part of their primal diet if their bodies allow for it to be "processed" without inflammation or sickness. If you were trying to be a veggie and primal, allowing for cheese intake makes the difference. As long as it is whole fat, REAL cheese there isn't anything wrong with it. And for that matter, if the example diets above increased the egg and cheese, and decreased the fruit, there isn't any reason this wouldn't be successful.
I personally feel that a primal lifestyle should include meat, but for people who have moral qualms, the guidelines can be adapted to make it work. Part of the 20% is to accommodate modern problems/ideas, and you seem to have completely forgotten that the 80/20 rule is there to prevent people from saying it's all or nothing. As many have said - "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good." In this case, if they can't be perfectly primal, isn't the 80/20 vegetarian version better than a typical vegetarian diet?And in my opinion, you are wrong about it never being close to a primal guideline. It may not be perfect, but it's closer than SAD.
Posted 7 months ago # -
marika
MemberOK, I'm at home and I was able to re-enter the ovo-only sample diet using pastured eggs. As I thought, it made quite a difference!
Here's the new nutrition info with pastured eggs:
Total Calories: 2078
RATIOS:
Proteins:Carbs:Lipids: 14:27:59
Omega 6:3: 10:1
Deficiencies:
-Calcium (66% RDA)
-Potassium (91% RDA)
-Sodium (65% RDA)Looks almost exactly the same as mine does every day (and I have meat every meal), on days I have nuts! The only difference is my proteins/carbs/lipids ratio is usually around 25:25:50. But I think this ratio is still quite fine and well within Paleo/Primal.
(P.S. I have included the sunflower seeds purposefully for their B3.)
Posted 7 months ago # -
OnTheBayou
MemberLady, I'm not arguing whether one should eat cheese or not. I'm not saying it's not nutritious. Please read my simple statement about it not being Primal and hence not being part of a vegetarian Primal diet.
The question being asked was if cheese is "Primal". It certainly isn't something that our mythological Grok EVER had. I refer you to Mark's take on cheese: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/cheese-unhealthy/ Not exactly a ringing endorsement.
IIRC, Dr. Cordain of the Paleo diet says absolutely not. (Primal is heavily based on Paleo if you've not put that together.)
I agree. Hey, eat all the cheese you want, I don't care. But it obviously isn't a Paleo/Primal food. I've "endorsed" cheese elsewhere here as a sort of meat analogue.
Personally I cut most of my cheese consumption out when I went Primal and now I've cut out most of what was left. Primary reason is that I don't need the calories!
Posted 7 months ago #
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