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  1. #91
    Elliot's Avatar
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    That's hardly the sort of evidence required to convince people to reduce their PUFA consumption to the level of deficiency.
    This brings up an important point. When animals eat little to no PUFA, they experience some radical benefits. But it seems to have a sort of plateau effect, such that eating more PUFA has a strongly negative effect up to a certain point, after which eating more PUFA has a weaker effect. But if people could get PUFA consumption down to "deficiency" levels they might see great benefits.

  2. #92
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    Letting nut consumption go to the way side since we are saying "PUFA"....what evidence do you have that fish is toxic due to the excessive PUFA content? Like costal societies with severe mortality rates? Cause what I've seen seems to indicate the opposite. I.e. costal societies thrive and living the longest. Surely PUFA overload from all that fish would override any other healthy activities!

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliot View Post
    But if people could get PUFA consumption down to "deficiency" levels they might see great benefits.
    Based on what data? Human? I'm assuming that the word "might" indicates that you understand your views are purely hypothetical.

  4. #94
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    Looking at coastal societies is observational, so it's hard to conclude anything. That being said, the Inuits ate lots of fish and they famously aged quickly. So that is some evidence.

    Regarding RCT's of fish oil, we had two big ones that really helped promote fish oil - DART and GISSI-PREVENZIONE. But both were flawed. DART was short. My claim is that PUFA are gradually harmful over a long period of time. 2 years is not long enough to see that. GISSI-PREVENZIONE was 3.5 years, which is slightly better, but it was also open-label, which is weird.

    Later studies of fish oil were unable to get the same results. A 2014 meta-analysis concluded that fish oil has an insignificant effect on mortality:
    http://www.biomedcentral.com/content...458-14-204.pdf

    But most of these studies are not long enough to see a difference. The effect is gradual.

    However, if you want one that really makes fatty fish look bad, here you go:
    European Journal of Clinical Nutrition - Abstract of article: Lack of benefit of dietary advice to men with angina: results of a controlled trial

    EDIT:
    Based on what data? Human?
    Unfortunately, most of the evidence regarding "essential fatty acid deficiency" is done with animals. But it seems like similar mechanisms exist in humans, so I'm willing to assume that we would experience something similar.
    Last edited by Elliot; 04-25-2014 at 09:12 PM.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliot View Post
    My claim is that PUFA are gradually harmful over a long period of time. 2 years is not long enough to see that.
    How many years does it take? And what's the precise mechanism? Last time I asked, you wrote "Probably something to do with oxidation."

    Which, again, isn't the level of conviction I would expect from someone who believes we should reduce PUFA to deficiency level.

  6. #96
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    Polyunsaturated fats can oxidize in a variety of ways. It's a random process so it varies. But one example would be acrolein. Acrolein is a product of lipid oxidation and it is generally recognized as toxic. Another example would be 4-hydroxy-2-nonenal. Accumulating these over time is probably not good.

    I think Alzheimer's disease is a good example. Alzheimer's involves decreased glucose metabolism in the brain, which would probably explain its symptoms. Maybe people with Alzheimer's can't think properly because their brain can't generate enough energy. Acrolein inhibits glucose metabolism and people with Alzheimer's disease tend to have more acrolein in their brains than regular people. So the acrolein probably contributes to the Alzheimer's and polyunsaturated fat provides the acrolein. But how long does it take to develop Alzheimer's disease? If they wanted to prove this with a randomized trial it would need to last decades.

    EDIT:
    PUFA also depress the metabolic rate. This would impair healing and repair, so it probably contributes to declining health.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliot View Post
    I think Alzheimer's disease is a good example. Alzheimer's involves decreased glucose metabolism in the brain, which would probably explain its symptoms. Maybe people with Alzheimer's can't think properly because their brain can't generate enough energy.
    And here I was thinking that Alzheimer's was caused by the development of plaques and tangles in the brain.

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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliot View Post
    Looking at coastal societies is observational, so it's hard to conclude anything. That being said, the Inuits ate lots of fish and they famously aged quickly. So that is some evidence.

    Regarding RCT's of fish oil, we had two big ones that really helped promote fish oil - DART and GISSI-PREVENZIONE. But both were flawed. DART was short. My claim is that PUFA are gradually harmful over a long period of time. 2 years is not long enough to see that. GISSI-PREVENZIONE was 3.5 years, which is slightly better, but it was also open-label, which is weird.

    Later studies of fish oil were unable to get the same results. A 2014 meta-analysis concluded that fish oil has an insignificant effect on mortality:
    http://www.biomedcentral.com/content...458-14-204.pdf

    But most of these studies are not long enough to see a difference. The effect is gradual.

    However, if you want one that really makes fatty fish look bad, here you go:
    European Journal of Clinical Nutrition - Abstract of article: Lack of benefit of dietary advice to men with angina: results of a controlled trial

    EDIT:

    Unfortunately, most of the evidence regarding "essential fatty acid deficiency" is done with animals. But it seems like similar mechanisms exist in humans, so I'm willing to assume that we would experience something similar.
    Eating fish and supplementing with fish oil are two different things.

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  9. #99
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    Eating fish and supplementing with fish oil are two different things.
    In the Diet and Angina Randomized Trial (mentioned above), the group instructed to eat more fatty fish had a higher mortality rate.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliot View Post
    Polyunsaturated fats can oxidize in a variety of ways. It's a random process so it varies. But one example would be acrolein. Acrolein is a product of lipid oxidation and it is generally recognized as toxic. Another example would be 4-hydroxy-2-nonenal. Accumulating these over time is probably not good.

    I think Alzheimer's disease is a good example. Alzheimer's involves decreased glucose metabolism in the brain, which would probably explain its symptoms. Maybe people with Alzheimer's can't think properly because their brain can't generate enough energy. Acrolein inhibits glucose metabolism and people with Alzheimer's disease tend to have more acrolein in their brains than regular people. So the acrolein probably contributes to the Alzheimer's and polyunsaturated fat provides the acrolein. But how long does it take to develop Alzheimer's disease? If they wanted to prove this with a randomized trial it would need to last decades.

    EDIT:
    PUFA also depress the metabolic rate. This would impair healing and repair, so it probably contributes to declining health.
    Dr. Perlmutrer has a hypothesis on that. He is a neurologist and his father suffered this disease.

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