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Thread: Why do doctors tell us to eat stuff that's clearly bad for us? page 6

  1. #51
    Scott F's Avatar
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    I'm married to a nurse so I have nursing friends and have had doctors as friends as well. You would think that the vast majority of doctors and nurses would be keenly interested in nutrition and learning as much about it as possible. They are not.

    I've been paleo/primal for (I think) 3 years now. I have books related to paleo nutrition in the house that I've read. Do you think my wife would read any of them? She ain't read one. She stubbornly refused to. Her knowledge about nutrition is CW stuff. What I see is a kind of professional arrogance in much of the medical community as it relates to nutrition. If you have some medical issue then...."it was your roll of the genetic dice."

    I have a friend (in his 60s) who has a son that reads up on nutrition. His wife is a nurse's aid. He tells me his wife poo poos diets. In her mind it's simply CI/CO to lose the weight. They hang out with a nurse practitioner (that I've gone to as well). At an informal gathering he asked her a nutrition question. She told him he needed to ask his son because he studies nutrition and knows more about it than she does. I've talked to her about nutrition, myself, and told her I posted some of this stuff (by medical-research doctors and biochemists) to my facebook (which btw my wife doesn't like me doing even though I tell her that other people have friended me just for those links). This nurse practitioner friended me for the links.

    My main doctor is paleo. And he tells his patients to try paleo. I was talking to someone just yesterday morning over coffee about metabolic syndrome and how I discovered my doctor being paleo (he actually started about 5 months before I did). Like most bodybuilders, he's and exercise buff who is interested in working out and nutrition. He is the only doctor or nurse practitioner I know who is lean and in top shape. Apparently, my GP is getting a reputation because this person told me that "Dr Jones has a program he's putting people on and they're losing weight and not having to go on medications." I told the guy that my Jones was putting them on paleo/primal. I know he told my cousin (who by the way is a paramedic) to go primal. He did for a while but didn't stick to it. I think he and his wife when back to it after I talked to them about my experience.

    I went to my dermatologist (I see him every 6 months for a check up). My wife took my daughter to him for acne. He put her on accutane and "the pill". I see as him and my wife doing an experiment on my daughter. My daughter is now 22 and has to take a thyroid med every day for hypothyroidism, and an antibiotic because she still has acne. I wonder if the accutane was related. Her OB sent her to a different dermatologist (in the same clinic). I'm told this doctor follows paleo. After her first visit, as she was leaving, this doctor told her, "I'm one of a very few doctors who will tell you this, but if you go on a low carb diet, cut the carbs, you'll probably get rid of you pollycysts.

    I tried to bring up nutrition to my (her former) dermatologist in regards to acne and he immediately put nutrition down as having anything to do with acne and brought up this: Twinkie diet helps nutrition professor lose 27 pounds - CNN.com. That's when I fired back at him what you read in my sig (below). The nurse chuckled. "There's no report of Eskimos having acne until one generation after adopting a Western diet. Can you explain that?"

    Ya'll getting the picture, here? Yeah, there are doctors/nurses who have a keen interest in nutrition but the vast majority don't know any more shit about it than what patient can read magazines or see in the news. The patient, however, does not know that their health professional knows little more than the patient with regards to nutrition. And that is the biggest problem I see. We can be in a social setting talking about exercise, health, and diet. The eyes will look to the nurses for reassurance on nutrition.

    Professional arrogance? In my observation, the general population is way more open to reading up on nutrition and applying it than (so called) health care professionals. But because the patients believe doctors are read up on nutritional science they extend to their doctors undue credibility.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/16/he...chen.html?_r=0
    as a newly minted doctor on the wards seeing real patients, I found myself in the same position [as before medical school]. I was still getting a lot of questions about food and diet. And I was still hesitating when answering. I wasn’t sure I knew that much more after medical school than I did before.

    One day I mentioned this uncomfortable situation to another young doctor. “Just consult the dietitians if you have a problem,” she said after listening to my confession. “They’ll take care of it.” She paused for a moment, looked suspiciously around the nursing station, then leaned over and whispered, “I know we’re supposed to know about nutrition and diet, but none of us really does.”
    Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

  2. #52
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    Have you ever actually tried to eat according to the recommendations, with all that much grain products? I don't think it is possible to do it and stay thin unless you are a young male who maybe skateboards as primary transportation, plays sports, fidgets a lot and is studying in a mind-taxing college major.
    Female, 5'3", 49, Starting weight: 163lbs. Current weight: 135 (more or less).
    Starting squat: 45lbs. Current squat: 170 x 3. Current Deadlift: 220 x 3

  3. #53
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    So with one exception, none of the people you know who are lean have ever been overweight. When a naturally thin person starts exercising and eating better, they may gain some muscle and lose a few pounds of fat, but that doesn't make their experience anything remotely equivalent to that of people who have always struggled with their weight, no matter what they eat or how they exercise.





    Interestingly, they all do "cheat days". One guy says to take advantage of big eating times like the holidays to build muscle,then go back and lean out. One says "eat like a fitness model 80% of the time". And another guy takes regular breaks. But here is where our experiences are different. The people I know who have never been overweight don't do cheat days. They don't need to, because they don't practice restricted eating in the first place.

    I think there are limited things that overweight people can learn from emulating naturally thin people, who eat a variety of different diets and any number of different exercise programs (or none at all) but still remain thin.
    I don't know how it works for anyone but me. Primal got me to a point, but wasn't cutting it beyond that. I'm very happy with the results, but for me, further fat loss on primal was not happening.

    The advice I am currently taking is working. The vast majority of the time, I eat a very simple, but filling mix of foods that ends putting me in a calorie deficit. By the end of the week, I'm bored with the foods and get an opportunity to eat whatever. I do that, satisfy my need for variety and am ready to back to a restrictive diet the next day. I do work out hard.

    I don't know many people who have the body I want who just eat whatever or just move a little (muscles/lean). I do know naturally thin people, but they tend to lack the muscle I want.

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  4. #54
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    The reason why nutrition is such a small component of medical training is that the VAST MAJORITY of pts are not interested in changing their diets, nor being told what they should be eating. As if the advice from a doctor isn't bad enough, imagine him/her telling you that you shouldn't also be eating grains, legumes, and seed oils? Who the hell is going to follow that advice???

    Pt's want a pill, and a pat on the head saying, "It's not your fault." When in reality, it's all their fault.

    Treating pt's day in and day out is a major drain on a person. Ask any doctor, in any field, and if they're being honest with you, the biggest drawback of their profession is dealing with pt's. The idea that doctor's get into their chosen profession to help people is a complete myth.
    Last edited by MouthDR; 12-25-2013 at 05:45 PM.

  5. #55
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    Pt's want a pill, and a pat on the head saying, "It's not your fault." When in reality, it's all their fault.
    I agree to a point, people won't change. But MD's could do more to let people know the health consequences of their diets. I remember years ago when I was morbidly obese, I had reflux. MD wrote a script and sent me on my way. Meanwhile, my friend a chiro advised me to lose weight and stop the nighttime binges on certain foods. She described how my fat and eating habits were impacting that system. Knowing what fat does to you at least makes you informed while you eat yourself to death.

    It probably is frustrating, but its your job. I advise people in real estate and people don't want to hear it at times. I get paid to let them know. I guess we pay MD's to make us better, but once you have the cavalcade of drugs, are you making people better? It seems like medicine, for the most part is a fraud and we are being ripped off. If all it is going to be about is "meds" make all drugs accessible and let patients self-diagnose and save a ton of money.

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  6. #56
    Scott F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MouthDR View Post
    The reason why nutrition is such a small component of medical training is that the VAST MAJORITY of pts are not interested in changing their diets, nor being told what they should be eating. As if the advice from a doctor isn't bad enough, imagine him/her telling you that you shouldn't also be eating grains, legumes, and seed oils? Who the hell is going to follow that advice???

    Pt's want a pill, and a pat on the head saying, "It's not your fault." When in reality, it's all their fault.

    Treating pt's day in and day out is a major drain on a person. Ask any doctor, in any field, and if they're being honest with you, the biggest drawback of their profession is dealing with pt's. The idea that doctor's get into their chosen profession to help people is a complete myth.
    I thinks that's a bit of a cop out. A doctor is supposed to be scientific and therefore should have a health skepticism. If he/she walks into room with a preconceived assumption that the patient doesn't give a rat's ass about diet/nutrition he's falling short. There's a difference between knowledge and discipline in the patient. You simply can't assume that the vast majority of the patients have no discipline. As a natural bodybuilder who thought those FDA dietary guidelines were based upon good science and so tried to follow them but still got overweight with metabolic syndrome, I have a saying I tell others: "With my discipline and interest in following a healthy diet by following the dietary guidelines didn't keep me from getting met syn who the hell could? This whole business of following the pyramid of eating less and exercise more takes a discipline the vast majority patients do not have." Now couple that with a knowledge that the doctors their patients are looking to, themselves, haven't a good clue as to losing weight and correct metabolic syndrome through diet. When you get the nutrition in line with evolutionary biology it doesn't take that much discipline. The discipline is in knowing and then choosing to eat the right foods in the maco-nutrients conductance to human evolutionary biology.

    My family raises cattle. I'm confident that if I take a feedlot cow off the grain supplements it's being fed and put it on quality pasture grass that cow is going to lose weight. It's weight is going to normalize. Another farmer I know said, "it's going to go backwards." It's going to get healthier. How much conscious discipline does a cow have at controlling it's body fat? It's none.

    Nutritional science as it's currently researched isn't very good. It's about time doctors realize that and inform their patients of the guideline's shortcomings.
    Peter Attia MD,
    NUSI-Q6: Misconceptions - YouTube
    NuSI | Video Q&A
    Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

  7. #57
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    I agree with your post Scott.....I cannot think of any other area in which I regularly get more frustrated with other doctors as my emphasis on nutrition and what I refer to as "original living".

    I put it this way. I am on my lunch break now, and I have said some derivation of this 6 times already today:
    "There is nothing, not a single part of your health, regardless of pre-condition, that is not affected by your diet.....it is all an input and output system, just a very complicated one that we don't fully understand. What I can say is that the main inputs are how much you move, what you put in your mouth, and how you sleep. Before we talk about drugs or surgeries or anything else, we need to square away changes in those 3 inputs."

    It is wrong to assume laziness, when a lot of times it is just that no one has quite put it that way. The "Big 3" as I call them are talked about as adjuncts, not primary interventions, and this contributes to their being ignored.

    I think that if every doctor put it like that, to where my "3 inputs" are not peripheral, but taken as the primary means to improve one's health, we would all be in a much better place.....I do believe that many doctors don't fully recognize just how instrumental it is, but I think it is wrong to remove the primary reason to me, which is that many docs do not want their patients to resent them. They feel like it is piling on, and that a lot of people realize that they are in poor health overall.

    The reality though is that most people have very rose-colored glasses about their health, and it really DOES make a big difference to be brutally honest with people. If you package it the right way, especially if you involve family and supporters of the patient, you can become their hero rather than that mean doctor they saw once and never went to again.

    I prefer something like: "For a really long time I imagine a lot of doctors have BS'ed you. Don't be mad at the first guy to tell you the truth."

    But I am not in primary care, where this kind of messaging would do the most good. For me, most of my patients are in pretty dire straits to see me in the first place....they are usually very afraid of where this all will be going, so I get a higher bully pulpit than most docs get.
    "They now look to a single and splendid government of an aristocracy, founded on banking institutions, and moneyed incorporations under the guise and cloak of their favored branches of manufactures, commerce and navigation, riding and ruling over the plundered ploughman and beggared yeomanry." - Thomas Jefferson, 1826

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
    I agree with your post Scott.....
    I thought his post was rather excellent as well!

  9. #59
    Scott F's Avatar
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    Thanks.

    Here's the big picture that gets me. 75% of the rising health care (which BTW gave us ObamaCare) is being driven by Metabolic Syndrome (between 5:30 to 13 minutes => http://www.uctv.tv/shows/Fat-Chance-...641).....which is by and large due to SAD nutrition. Americans are eating way too much starch (and sugar, and maybe too much PUFAs) leading to hyperinflation. It's the very dietary guidelines coming from the USDA's pyramid that's contributing to this "epidemic". So on the one hand we have government run organization (USDA) telling Americans to eat a diet that's making them sick. But instead of correcting for that we institute yet another government run organization (HHS/ACA) to deal with these rising health costs. Americans are caught in the middle totally confused.

    Americans look to their doctors (both of whom follow CW nutrition) believing their doctor has the right nutritional prescription. But what if you have a doctor who prescribes a diet that is contra to the CW guidelines, the patient begins following that diet, and has a heart attack anyway (his heart disease was just too far along)? Even if the doctor's dietary prescription was spot on he has no legal defense should he get sued for malpractice. His insurance company could/may deny his coverage (I'm assuming this) because he told his patient to follow a diet that the government deems a dangerous fad. The USDA's guidelines (no matter how bad they may be) give the malpractice insurance company plausible deniability should the doctor sue them for coverage.
    Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

  10. #60
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    Again, agree with Scott's analysis.

    The USA has invented the perfect system to give its population metabolic syndrome.

    Step 1: Make grains the staple of the diet.
    Step 1b: Process some of those grains into sugar (corn syrup) and inject it into everything.
    Step 1c: Process some of those grains into oil (grain oil) and fry the grains it it.

    Step 2: Launch government propaganda saying "meat gives you heart attacks".

    Step 3a: Have doctors set their metrics such that if you do eat meat, it will show trouble.
    Step 4b: Once the patient exceeds the irrelevant CHO/LDL threshold order them on drugs.
    Step 3c: Have insurance companies penalize people for exceeding the irrelevant threshold.
    Step 3d: Have doctors give patients no feedback on their health (body fat %, HDL, TG). Keep these numbers a secret, by the time they figure the numbers out in their 50s+ they will have chronic disease.

    Step 4: Make a ton of money on what blooms from metabolic syndrome and the sugar/grain-based diet: cancer, heart disease, Alzheimer's, depression, attention deficit disorder, ache, etc.


    It's actually surprising there are people who don't have metabolic syndrome!

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