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Thread: Why do doctors tell us to eat stuff that's clearly bad for us? page 2

  1. #11
    Erik W's Avatar
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    Primal Fuel
    Quote Originally Posted by God View Post
    Do you guys think it's just plain incompetence? Or maybe something more sinister? Time to put on your tinfoil hats!


    Think about it. Who benefits from us eating high-carb low-fat grain-based diets? Well, let's see. Eating a grain-based diet causes disease and disease is generally treated (remember, only treated, never cured) by pills. Pharmaceutical companies make pills. So that's one multi-billion dollar industry that has motivation to make you suffer.
    "Evil capitalists! Slaves to the corporate machine!" Maybe you socialist posters in the U.S. could stop and think for a while: if they are "slaves to the corporate machine", why would the hundreds of thousands of government-employed doctors in the West and the rest of the world also recommend wheat and rice and not say a word about the paleo diet? Ignoring that little inconvenient fact, are you?

    The doctors simply say what is safe to say. Bread has always been around, so they won't start a one-man crusade against bread. They will stick to whatever everyone else is saying.

    Maybe they would change if professors teaching nutrition would change their tune. But those professors - government-employed most of them, and those who aren't live in a sheltered world far away from the "corporate machine" where almost all have a leftist mindset - have written books long ago that their reputations hang on, and they won't throw their time-honored books out the window because of new radical research. They also make new students buy those books every semester, which gives them a great deal of income. (Oops, all those leftist "anti-greed" ideals go out the window quicker than the books when they can get some money, but what else is new.) They won't tell their students that the diet they have always written about is wrong, and that they should go read someone else's work.


    This will change when new teachers at the university slowly introduce the new scientific studies as part of their own careers. That's why I'm not worried. The paleo/primal diet is still fairly new.

  2. #12
    oxide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik W View Post
    if they are "slaves to the corporate machine", why would the hundreds of thousands of government-employed doctors in the West and the rest of the world also recommend wheat and rice?

    ..The doctors simply say what is safe to say. Bread has always been around, so they won't start a one-man crusade against bread. They will stick to whatever everyone else is saying.
    So the food pyramid is a leftist government conspiracy where all the leftist professors and government officials and government employed doctors got into a room at the same time and wrote some 60-year master plan to profit off textbooks and diabetes drugs? Good gosh, they weren't even all alive at the same time. And have you ever really watched leftists? It's all argue, all the time. They can't agree on ANYTHING to conspire on.

    To partially answer the thread question, government is working off an older model. Agriculture subsidies were initiated during a time (pre-WW2) when people couldn't get enough to eat in general. The goal was to get ANY calories to starving people, first here in the US, and later to the Third World. Grains are easy to grow, provide the most calories for the effort, are easy to ship, and are practically non-perishable. Big Ag was only too happy to supply grains for the government to buy and send overseas, and that influence continues to this day.

    The government doesn't yet realize that modern wheat is NOT the same as the wheat from even 40 years ago. They don't realize that CICO is, at best, 1/3 of what really happens. Heck, we can't even get this Primal forum to agree on CICO -- so we certainly aren't going to influence Big Ag or the government.

    Back to the conspiracies: ... What if the government suddenly did embrace Primal, and started a crusade to pass regulations in that direction? Then we'd just get a different -- and much larger and wealthier -- set of people accusing the government of a different leftist nanny-state conspiracy, this time to force us to eat bacon and that hateful broccoli, and to ditch the wheat which has sustained us througout recorded history. In fact, even the smallest steps have already drawn fire. Michelle Obama DID try a very mild one-woman crusade against juice boxes, and she was lambasted. Michael Bloomberg tried to tax Big Gulps and he is still vilified for it. The government is just -- as you say -- saying the safe thing, what everyone else is saying.
    Last edited by oxide; 12-24-2013 at 06:37 AM.
    5'0" female, 43 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Current weight: skinny-fat 106.5 lbs because of sugar cheating.

    MY PRIMAL: I (try to) follow by-the-book primal as advocated by Mark Sisson, except for whey powder and a bit of cream. I aim for 80-90 g carb/day and advocate a two-month strict adjustment for newbies. But everybody is different and other need to tweak Primal to their own needs.

  3. #13
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    Doctors can't be experts on everything. Unfortunately, conventional wisdom is such a nice, neat package that no one who has no special reason to question it will see past the shiny exterior to find the rot and corruption that really supports it.

  4. #14
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    Yeah, let's all get together and have another round of name calling between righties and lefties because that's always is good for making the forum look like a group of mindless douches.

    We should be using our brains or what's left of them. If the government (or any other "authority") tells you to eat like cattle, and you have sense to know that you're not cattle, don't do it. That takes care of six small meals a day and a grain/plant based diet.

    If logic has any place in one's life, packages with ingredient labels that have lot of ingredients from a lab won't seem like healthy food. That takes care of about 60-90% of the stuff on grocery store shelves and that offered at drive through eateries.

    After that, you pretty much only have to learn that fat isn't evil, grains aren't god's gift to the planet, and one oil isn't as good as another.
    "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

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  5. #15
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    Doctor's advice and nutrition science is based on the lifesty;e and tradition that goes back centuries and that got rapidly changed during the last 50 or so years. If you had a lisfetyle that included walking everywhere, playing outdoors a lot, doing your own laundry, cleaning your own house, bringing back the bags of groceries daily from a store, cooking every meal, etc, doctor's advice would be spot on. It is our sedentary, in-doors and in-cars lifestyle with crazy commutes and electronics prevalence that makes more and more of the dietary restrictions necessary.

    I would love to restore the lifestyle of plentiful movement and outdoors exposure, and then increase my food choices, rather than keep cutting back on everything, both food and movement. Maybe because I have such a limited mobility right now and the weather is so crappy too, that I miss moving and being active and being outdoors so much.
    Last edited by Leida; 12-24-2013 at 07:34 AM.
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  6. #16
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    The only expert on your health and dietary needs is you! Don’t blame the doctors for your own faults or lack of knowledge, but learn how you respond to different kind of foods, training and recovery etc…

  7. #17
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    A stick save and a beauty from JoanieL in prevention of this thread taking the bullet train to crazy town. Well done.

    I will interject 2 big things that I think do play a factor for a lot of doctors. They are what I had to overcome to do what I do, which is to actually have "consult patients", or people that I spend a good deal of time just talking to, either through me or my nutritionist.

    1) Lack of time.....Joanie's story about getting told to lose weight with no idea how is typical, and the main driver is the simple economics of being a doctor. Many work in hospital or managed-care clinics, well over 80% are not private, so this means you are essentially a very well-paid employee. In the view of a hospital or clinic, you are the engine of the entire business, the producer. Everyone else is only there, from staff to patients to janitors, because you are there creating fees for services.....this means that you have a schedule that is often BUILT for you to fall behind, as the managers have realized that you will usually find a way to carry it out.

    2) The problem with telling the truth....the reality is that, just like most any other professional, a doctor wants his patients to LIKE him/her. You want to have a good relationship with them, and a big part of that is that many patients are looking for validation, not confrontation. I have seen a lot of patients that come to me after years of getting regular care, and they are constantly shocked by what I tell them. More so than that, a lot of them get very angry or defensive. I am used to this by now.

    What if all doctor's started telling people the truth?

    Here is a quick summary of what I tell people several times a week. I have a binder I give them which lays all of this out in more detail, but here is how it typically goes. My typical patient is upper 40's to low 50's, at least 40 pounds overweight, diabetic, and almost always only has an interest in making sure they don't go blind (I am an ophthalmologist). Once they realize that I am in for changing much more than that, and have often been given a Carte blanche by their overloaded PCP to do whatever I want, it is a big shock to them.

    Patient: "So where are we at doc?"

    Me: "It doesn't look good. All of your metabolic markers point toward worsening disease, and this combined with your cholesterol numbers show increasing risk for a heart attack. On top of this, you are carrying an extremely excessive amount of visceral fat which surrounds your vital organs. Your feet are bad from years of not enough walking or using Martian shoes, the disks in your back are collapsed due to years of carrying too much weight, with bad posture and no back strength. Your knees are bad because of the same issues, along with a completely sedentary lifestyle over decades.....your blood sugar is diabetic of course, but this is masking a much bigger problem of metabolic disease. It makes you feel hungry even when you have plenty of glucose in your system, feel lethargic and foggy due to the food that you eat, and your gut is perpetually inflamed, giving you acid reflux, constipation, along with your poor digestion.

    Patient has stunned look on his face. I wait for a question but it never comes.

    Me: "Given the fact that you have developed all of these habits, from poor eating to bad posture to no exercise, over decades, all combined with an appetite tuned for hyper-palatable industrial pseudo-food, turning this around will be incredibly difficult. Would you like to hear how?"

    Patient still has jaw down.....mutters "Uh, sure?"

    Me: "First, you need to go home and take all of the food in the house and give it to a homeless shelter. I want it empty, to the point that a mouse wouldn't find food there. Next, you need to go to the store and buy only 6 categories of food: Meat, vegetables, fruit, rice, olive oil, and buy some coconut oil or ghee. This will be all that you eat, even if you go out. This will be an overhaul of your entire diet that must happen at least 95% of the time......next, I want you to walk, run, or hike 4-6 hours a week. You will start a strength program, based on compound movements with a lot of compensations for your joint problems, and you will begin seeing a flexibility coach. You will lift 3 times a week, do the others 2 days a week. With me so far?"

    Patient now staring at my shoes. They are minimalist dress shoes that took an act of God to find, BTW.

    Me: "You will no longer eat breakfast, ever. At best you will not eat solid food until at least noon, but eventually we will be doing about 16 hours without food, every day. You will buy some BCAA shake to make before you workout, fasted. No alcohol but small amounts of wine, no sweets, no bread, no caffeine once you start your eating window. Set an alarm for when you will go to bed, and let the sun wake you up if possible most mornings. You sleep like hell, and that needs to change before any of this will be possible. I will see you in 3 months. If markers have not changed, I will no longer be seeing you and will be transferring your care to someone that is fine with letting this happen. Any questions?"

    Now, I operate with losing about 25% of the patients that are sent to me.....seeing as I am private and get more referrals than I could ever possibly handle, this is not a problem, but if were to work for a hospital or network clinic this would be seen as completely unacceptable. I am fine with what I say being too much for some people, and I see it as proof that I am not diluting my message too much.

    One could make an argument that #2 is the fault of individual doctors, but that is not entirely accurate. We are forced to operate in a system that SOCIETY setup, seeing patients using a food system that THEIR elected officials setup.
    "They now look to a single and splendid government of an aristocracy, founded on banking institutions, and moneyed incorporations under the guise and cloak of their favored branches of manufactures, commerce and navigation, riding and ruling over the plundered ploughman and beggared yeomanry." - Thomas Jefferson, 1826

  8. #18
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    Laz, the sad part is that some doctors also give advice as strongly as you, but in the opposite direction. I know someone who has been a "healthy" CW follower for a long time. She is a tad younger than your average patient's age group. She is overweight, has increasing hypertension, her blood lipids are low HDL and elevated triglycerides, and she has recently been diagnosed with early stages of fatty liver disease. She was sent to a gastroenterologist, who told her to stop eating red meat and drinking alcohol. She told the doctor that she doesn't eat red meat (remember the healthy CW she's been following?) and does not drink. The doctor told her to keep doing it, and to also go on a fat free diet. Not even low fat, fat free. She was literally told to avoid all fat, with the only exception being a little bit of olive oil. She has also been prescribed numerous pills.

    The sad part is that I have had a long conversation with her about fats, cholesterol, seed oils, etc., and while she seemed surprised, like "really, you can eat fat?", it went into one ear and out the other. She is so scared of fat and cholesterol, that even the concept of ingesting eggs translates to heart disease in her mind, which is also supported by her "doctors".

  9. #19
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    Lazarus I wish you were my brother's doctor. He's diabetic and is having all the problems you mentioned. He's getting ready to have surgery for glaucoma. I've tried to get him to eat paleo for the last 3 yrs. He knows he should but he still insists on eating baked goods, though he tells me he only does it occasionally. I've stopped talking to him about diet. I think if a doctor would tell him the same things I tell him it would make a world of difference, but that won't happen because the doctors he sees are through the VA.
    Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

  10. #20
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    To be fair, while I have not really had many doctors I work with ever say to eat strictly paleo, I have also never once heard a doctor recommend a diet high in processed foods, added sugars and oils, to avoid excercise of any kind, to consume alcohol beyond limited moderation, or limit fresh fruits and vegetable intake, to avoid leafy green vegetables while not taking "blood thinners", or to sleep so little so as to rely on energy drinks like water. Whole grains are still part of the CW, and just like in so many other things, change will be slow. Doing your own research and testing your own diet and body are way better than simply relying on the recommendations of others.

    People believe medicine is cut and dry, but there is a fair amount of wiggle room and differences in treatments. I had one MD tell me they no longer cut out appendixes in Europe. They attempt a first treatment with medication before resorting to surgery. Without culture and sensitivity reports, some docs prescribe different antibiotics to treat the same type of infection; say Levaquin vs Rocephin for a Pneumonia. Sometimes they'll give you a rational of population susceptibility, but sometimes it is just personal preference.

    We're all going to die, it is the years before and the quality that matters. If you are healthy and happy eating grains, why change? If you're like us, then you might want to seek alternatives like paleo to improve your quality of life. You won't find a lot of PCPs or docs telling you to go paleo, because they already have a hard time getting people to make minor modifications to their SAD of garbage, or to even excercise a little bit. Being informed and making your own choices, is always the best so you can see what works for you, instead of just doing what you're told.

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