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Thread: C'mon now there must be more to discuss ??? page 6

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Will View Post
    Both the wrists and soleus have a very high percentage of slow switch muscle fibers so they are better stimulated by higher reps lower weights and shorter rest periods.

    But that's only if you believe in that science mumbo jumbo
    Going really heavy on those muscles works for me, wrist curls with up to 240 pound and calf raises on the leg press machine with 1000 pounds or more with lots of stretching of the fascia. I guess that slow twist fibers in forearms and calfs get more than enough stimulus indirectly by other exercises, so heavy work seem to be the weak link on those muscles IMO...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    ^Yeah, thats been my understanding as well Iron Will. Of course then we are thinking fiber recruitment theory. Does a max load, or at least a load in which you would reach failure in 8 reps or less (maybe under 90 seconds for the time under tension crowd) not recruit all fibers regardless of if they are primarily slow or fast twitch? I know I'm just nitpicking here, but the title of the thread dictates that I do so
    Lol yes yes it does. And yes all fibers would be fired when using a higher weight based on the all or nothing principle. However because the energy system that is used for fast twitch (creatine phosphate and Adenosine TriPhosphate) muscle fibers is limited to the amount available to be used during a single contraction and takes longer for the burned fuel to clear due to the larger size of the fast twitch cell, the muscle cell fatigues much faster than slow twitch fibers. Slow twitch use a more efficient yet less powerful fuel source and are able to clear burned fuel quicker due to the smaller size of the slow twitch cell. The slow twitch energy source is sugar processed through glycolysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by not on the rug View Post
    anything with gloves on will work the grip bigtime. jed over at diesel crew talked about that years and years ago. ever trying to deadlift with a pair of winter gloves on will definitely improve your grip.

    i had thought about indian clubs a while ago, but never pulled the trigger on buying some. where are you thinking about buying them from?
    I'm going to grab mine from www.onnit.com. I think they're in your neck of the woods. Texas?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    Going really heavy on those muscles works for me, wrist curls with up to 240 pound and calf raises on the leg press machine with 1000 pounds or more with lots of stretching of the fascia. I guess that slow twist fibers in forearms and calfs get more than enough stimulus indirectly by other exercises, so heavy work seem to be the weak link on those muscles IMO...
    It all depends on your make up. You may have a higher percentage of fast twitch fibers than most which would make it generally easier for you to gain size. And actually a really good way to tell that is by the size of your calves and forearms. If you're naturally larger I those two areas the more fast twitch you potentially have to activate so if I were to use you as an example, I would train you with more focus on heavier weights less reps and most rest vs someone who has smaller forearms and calves which I would train with higher reps less weight and less rest.

    Again these are generalities and would also depend on goals and at what phase of the program we're at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Will View Post
    It all depends on your make up. You may have a higher percentage of fast twitch fibers than most which would make it generally easier for you to gain size. And actually a really good way to tell that is by the size of your calves and forearms. If you're naturally larger I those two areas the more fast twitch you potentially have to activate so if I were to use you as an example, I would train you with more focus on heavier weights less reps and most rest vs someone who has smaller forearms and calves which I would train with higher reps less weight and less rest.

    Again these are generalities and would also depend on goals and at what phase of the program we're at.
    Here is a little info on that topic:

    Rep Range and Fiber Type

    Another thought is that repetition range influences the type of muscle fiber (fast twitch/slow twitch) that is built. There is some thought that high rep training (anything greater than 8-10 reps) builds slow twitch muscle fiber and should be avoided. However, slow twitch fibers really don't grow much no matter what you do, and the small amount they can/do grow is best stimulated by the same heavy sets that cause "normal" growth, standard sets of 6-12 reps. If that weren't the case then endurance athletes would all be huge. Regardless of how you gain it, any size you gain will be fast twitch related growth. However, there is something to be said that training can influence the quality of fast twitch fiber that you build.

    All muscle fibers exist in a color continuuum with some fibers being pure white and other fibers having a shade of red. Think of eating chicken. The dark meat is tender and red while the breast meat is white and tough. Your muscles are the same way. Some are redder or whiter than others. The slowest twitching fibers are dark red while the fastest twitching fibers are pure white. In between those 2 extremes there will be various shades of white and red. What causes the different color is the amount of capillaries running thru the muscle. The redder the muscle the more capillaries (and oxygen) run thru it. The whiter the fiber the less capillaries (and oxygen) run thru it. Fibers can't completely change types. You can't take a dark red (slow twitch) fiber and change it to a pure white (fast twitch) fiber and vice versa. However, you can change the shade of a given fiber type (slow twitch or fast twitch) to either a whiter or redder variant of the same fiber type.

    IIA Vs IIX

    There are different sub types of fast twitch fibers with some more enduring or more powerful than others. In humans the whiter type II fiber is known as the IIX subtype, the intermediate light red shade is known as IIA. Both of the type II subtypes have equal strength, but the white fibers are more explosive and have no endurance while the redder shades are a bit less explosive with more endurance.

    Fiber type------------------------------------Fiber type

    <-----IIX---------------------------------------------IIA----->

    <-----Whiter----------------------------------------Redder---->

    <---Greater explosiveness------------------Less explosiveness-->

    <---Less Endurance---------------------------More Endurance-->

    The IIX fibers can change into IIA and vice versa, but it's arguable how much this is dependent on rep range. For all practical purposes anything you do that causes muscle breakdown/growth will cause an intermediate shift towards more IIA fibers. Actually activity of any kind tends to promote the IIX to IIA shift, even sprint training. Unfortunately, (and this is one reason why I started off this article by saying that weight training isn't perfect as far as transference) if you train with enough volume to cause muscle growth you train with enough volume to cause the shift. Untrained people actually have more IIX fibers than anyone because they don't do anything, - their fibers have no need for any endurance.

    Explosive athletes like sprinters and olympic weightlifters have more IIX fiber than others, but it's likely this is a genetic trait. They start out with more, thus end up with more, as science demonstrates fast twitch IIX fibers convert to IIA with any sorta practical stimulus.

    So, if you want to avoid fast to slow fiber conversions you have to avoid muscle breakdown, which means you don't grow at all. Is there any way to create a IIA to IIX conversion? Well, detraining is one way to do it. If you want to influence IIA to IIX conversions you need to keep the volume low and avoid muscle trauma. Strategically timed tapers and incorporation of pure explosive training methods can cause temporary shifts back towards the IIX subtype, which is what athletic peaking and proper periodization is all about.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Will View Post
    Lol yes yes it does. And yes all fibers would be fired when using a higher weight based on the all or nothing principle. However because the energy system that is used for fast twitch (creatine phosphate and Adenosine TriPhosphate) muscle fibers is limited to the amount available to be used during a single contraction and takes longer for the burned fuel to clear due to the larger size of the fast twitch cell, the muscle cell fatigues much faster than slow twitch fibers. Slow twitch use a more efficient yet less powerful fuel source and are able to clear burned fuel quicker due to the smaller size of the slow twitch cell. The slow twitch energy source is sugar processed through glycolysis.
    Good answer man!

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSchhool View Post
    Here is a little info on that topic:
    Ahh, interesting info as well. I think I've seen that in one of your past linkds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Will View Post
    It all depends on your make up. You may have a higher percentage of fast twitch fibers than most which would make it generally easier for you to gain size. And actually a really good way to tell that is by the size of your calves and forearms. If you're naturally larger I those two areas the more fast twitch you potentially have to activate so if I were to use you as an example, I would train you with more focus on heavier weights less reps and most rest vs someone who has smaller forearms and calves which I would train with higher reps less weight and less rest.

    Again these are generalities and would also depend on goals and at what phase of the program we're at.
    Ok, but don’t you find it reasonable to also train the larger fast twist fibers even if they are in minority in those muscle groups for whatever individual genetic make-up, since the slow twist fibers are always getting plenty of stimulus from everything else? And the same goes to abs, if you want to grow them large (I personally don’t want them bigger though!) then you must go heavy on them, because they get more than enough endurance work from lots of indirect stuff…

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Will View Post
    I'm going to grab mine from www.onnit.com. I think they're in your neck of the woods. Texas?
    those steel maces look awesome.

    i'm from jersey. not exactly close to texas. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    Ok, but don’t you find it reasonable to also train the larger fast twist fibers even if they are in minority in those muscle groups for whatever individual genetic make-up, since the slow twist fibers are always getting plenty of stimulus from everything else? And the same goes to abs, if you want to grow them large (I personally don’t want them bigger though!) then you must go heavy on them, because they get more than enough endurance work from lots of indirect stuff…
    Absolutely! And that's where the importance of rep ranges come into play. Less reps heavier weights then lighter weights more reps on separate days. This way you're always training full range of motion. It would be nearly impossible to train full range with heavy weights and high reps just due to muscle fatigue.

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