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Thread: Elbow, neck and joint pain? (Primal and young) page

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    vstefan's Avatar
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    Elbow, neck and joint pain? (Primal and young)

    Primal Fuel
    Hey guys
    I started eating primal 90/10 about 6-7 weeks ago for a few weeks, did a whole 30 and now I am eating whole30 style minus nuts, seeds, nightshades, eggs etc. I'm eating mainly offal, beef, canned fish, veges, good fats and lots of coconut - canned and fresh and the odd handful of berries or 1 or 2 figs (once a day) minimal additives and no slip ups. No alcohol and I stopped drinking coffee a few days ago.

    I've had elbow pains for well over a year and neck pains since the start of the year and my body generally feels messed up and painful among other symptoms. It originally started about 14 months ago with a minor acute injury, but it seemed to immediately get worse and worse and other parts of my body started to hurt.
    The elbow pains are quite sharp and on setting especially when I grip something - even a glass of water to carry round the house. I'm not able to do a few push ups without crying in pain nor many many other activities. My neck is continually sore and I often have headaches - especially during school. I've been to physio, acupuncture, chiro, doctor etc etc regularly for a month or two before trying to move onto other therapies. Scans, blood tests etc say everything is fine. Nothing seems to help - but I am trying massage at the moment.

    I'm also taking and have taken supplements - zinc (just started), magnesium (previously), calcium, glucosamine but nothing noticeable for the pain This pain feels like it's on my mind 24/7 and it's really stressful. I do exercise daily (at the moment it's a brisk barefoot walk for 40-60 minutes on the beach and even that's quite painful also I used to ride a bike almost daily before Primal)

    My current plan is to introduce some structured Yoga or Meditation if I am able to, start eating bone broth and cut back on computer usage with consistency.

    I'm only 18 (also 5"11 ~148 lbs) and any suggestions or help would be dearly appreciated.
    Last edited by vstefan; 12-11-2013 at 07:50 PM.

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    Any suggestions?

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    My #1 question for a lot of posters: are you sure you're eating enough?
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    Interesting post. I'd be interested to hear what some of the more eclectic and wide-ranging people in the space would ask you — someone like Paul Chek or Jack Kruse.

    Strictly amateur comments from me ...


    Quote Originally Posted by vstefan View Post
    Hey guys
    I've had elbow pains for well over a year and neck pains since the start of the year and my body generally feels messed up and painful among other symptoms.
    This is interesting. It sounds like inflammation — but perhaps that's an easy response, and, sure, a paleo diet ought to help with that. So I suppose would "bone broth and cut back on computer usage" which you're about to try.

    It originally started about 14 months ago with a minor acute injury, but it seemed to immediately get worse and worse and other parts of my body started to hurt.
    The elbow pains are quite sharp and on setting especially when I grip something - even a glass of water to carry round the house. I'm not able to do a few push ups without crying in pain nor many many other activities.
    This is the bit that makes me think I'd like to know what people with a really broad background might wonder about. It sounds a bit out of the ordinary.

    My neck is continually sore and I often have headaches - especially during school. I've been to physio, acupuncture, chiro, doctor etc etc regularly for a month or two before trying to move onto other therapies. Scans, blood tests etc say everything is fine. Nothing seems to help - but I am trying massage at the moment.
    Yeah, the head/neck relationship is critical, and this is where a lot of tension starts. I get the sense with you that there's something a bit more going on … but trying to get the muscles in that neck to release a bit can't hurt. The best thing for that is a practise that comes from Alexander Technique: basically, you lie on the floor for around 20 minutes with your feet drawn up and your head resting on 2 to 3 paperback books. That allows a gentle passive stretch to the neck and also enables the spine to lengthen out a bit, the intervertebral discs to take up fluid, the sympathetic nervous system to quieten down while you lie there, and so on. More here:




    I'm also taking and have taken supplements - zinc (just started), magnesium (previously), calcium, glucosamine but nothing noticeable for the pain
    Calcium isn't likely to be necessary for most people; and, unless it's in a very easily absorbable form, such as microcrystalline hydroxyapatite, may do more harm than good. You don't want calcium deposited where it shouldn't be. I'd not bother with it at all: maybe the occasional piece of cheese (unless you're sensitive to dairy products).

    The other supplements are probably no bad thing, though I'd think you should be able to get all the zinc you need from good seafood like oysters, specially if you're in New Zealand (I'm assuming it's that Wellington.) The bone broth you mentioned should do more than glucosamine on its own could.

    I would get your vitamin D levels checked, and supplement there, if necessary.

    My current plan is to introduce some structured Yoga or Meditation
    Yeah, those are likely no bad thing. Meditation is certainly good. I've done very little yoga, but my understanding is that you want to be careful that the teacher knows what he or she is doing — and never force anything.

    … if I am able to, start eating bone broth and cut back on computer usage with consistency.
    Yes, good ideas.

    I'm only 18 (also 5"11 ~148 lbs) and any suggestions or help would be dearly appreciated.
    Do you get plenty of sleep? That's always important. Best to limit your exposure to light after the hours of darkness, too. Use red lightbulbs or candles, or put on blue-blocker glasses.

    You could try if cold showers help.

    I've nothing much else to offer. Maybe there's something more than usual going on with you. It does sound a bit out of the ordinary.

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    I get joint inflammation from eating things I am sensitive to, which includes gluten, egg whites, wine, legumes, peaches, and some starches (haven't narrowed down which ones yet). The pain can be severe. It is not helped by NSAIDs, but begins to go away immediately when I figure out what I'm eating wrong and cut it out of my diet. One symptom of this is feeling injured after not having done anything that might have caused an injury. Another is waking up feeling better, but getting worse as the day progresses (which reflects continuing to consume whatever it is I haven't realized yet is hurting me).

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    Quote Originally Posted by vstefan View Post
    Hey guys
    I started eating primal 90/10 about 6-7 weeks ago for a few weeks, did a whole 30 and now I am eating whole30 style minus nuts, seeds, nightshades, eggs etc. I'm eating mainly offal, beef, canned fish, veges, good fats and lots of coconut - canned and fresh and the odd handful of berries or 1 or 2 figs (once a day) minimal additives and no slip ups. No alcohol and I stopped drinking coffee a few days ago.

    I've had elbow pains for well over a year and neck pains since the start of the year and my body generally feels messed up and painful among other symptoms. It originally started about 14 months ago with a minor acute injury, but it seemed to immediately get worse and worse and other parts of my body started to hurt.
    The elbow pains are quite sharp and on setting especially when I grip something - even a glass of water to carry round the house. I'm not able to do a few push ups without crying in pain nor many many other activities. My neck is continually sore and I often have headaches - especially during school. I've been to physio, acupuncture, chiro, doctor etc etc regularly for a month or two before trying to move onto other therapies. Scans, blood tests etc say everything is fine. Nothing seems to help - but I am trying massage at the moment.

    I'm also taking and have taken supplements - zinc (just started), magnesium (previously), calcium, glucosamine but nothing noticeable for the pain This pain feels like it's on my mind 24/7 and it's really stressful. I do exercise daily (at the moment it's a brisk barefoot walk for 40-60 minutes on the beach and even that's quite painful also I used to ride a bike almost daily before Primal)

    My current plan is to introduce some structured Yoga or Meditation if I am able to, start eating bone broth and cut back on computer usage with consistency.

    I'm only 18 (also 5"11 ~148 lbs) and any suggestions or help would be dearly appreciated.
    Go to the chiropractor, love. He/she will get you sorted out.

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    vstefan's Avatar
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    @Lewis
    I have been doing the Alexander Technique correction daily, I believe it is called semi-supine pose? It gives me temporary relief sometimes. I've been sleeping for about 10 hours a day recently and my sleep quality feels ok but not great and I usually wake up more tight in the morning than throughout the day. I have tried different sleeping positions, pillows, sleeping on the floor but no noticeable changes. Cold showers or contrast showers give me some temporary relief, I've been doing that.
    The calcium supplements have 400mg D3 in it, but I will try see if I can get Vitamin D's on their own particularly D3. I'll give oysters a shot. Thanks for your response.

    @NamelessWonder
    I'm definitely eating enough, I eat beyond satiation lots of fats and meats and veges and moderate carbs .

    @eKatherine
    Sounds good, I don't eat any of those so if that's the case the only remaining culprits would probably be coconut and veges such as carrots or onions or berries? I've considered fasting for 24-48 hours occasionally to see if this will clear up any problems

    @edennperez1
    Went to an experienced chiropractor for about 3 months, he said I was a very 'odd case' in their being almost no improvement. He mentioned something along the lines of my body being 'overly flexible', I am not sure what he meant by that though.I might re-consider next year and see if there's any difference now with strict primal + other changes

    also, my pain seems to subside with paracetamol or NSAIDs, though they tend to have very little effect when I use them daily so I've cut back substantially as I want to avoid / recover from any possible side effects.
    Last edited by vstefan; 12-16-2013 at 05:02 PM.

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    How's your posture? And have you ever had an x-ray from any of these specialists?

    I ask because I had shoulder/arm pain for years as a teenager when I played sports, but whenever I complained my mum always said it was "growing pains". And then at the age of 30 I took a knock whilst go-karting and it triggered something that made the pain in my arm unbearable. It turned out that years of poor posture had put extra pressure near the top of my spine and this had caused it to grow a 'spur' in an attempt to protect itself. (This usually occurs in elderly people as its linked to osteoarthritis but I'd caused mine though always standing with my head tilted to one side, particularly when listening to people or having my photo taken. And then the sudden impact injury from the go-karting had forced my shoulder muscle which had been tense for almost my entire life, to suddenly move and I felt the pain.) This spur then pressed on a nerve that ran all the way from my ear, across my back and down my arm. It took 6 months of physio and two separate specialists saying they couldn't work out what was wrong before I got sent for an x-ray and they discovered this.

    Now I've learnt to hold my neck/head/shoulders correctly and the pain has vanished. It comes back occasionally if I sit slumped over my desk at work, but its kinda nice that I get a free built-in warning when I'm not sitting up straight!
    Last edited by MightyWindmill; 12-17-2013 at 06:50 AM.

  10. #10
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    I did wonder, as I said, if you've got more than normal going on. I don't know what — maybe a virus or something.

    But I don't know, and I don't even know the questions to ask.

    Quote Originally Posted by vstefan View Post
    @Lewis
    I have been doing the Alexander Technique correction daily, I believe it is called semi-supine pose? It gives me temporary relief sometimes.
    Ah, so you already know about that. Yes, that's what they call that position — though some practitioners like to modernise the jargon and cal it something like "active resting position" or whatnot. It's interesting you say "pose" and not "position" — the first seems to imply something "held". That's above all what it's not. It's about "letting go".

    At the biological level, there's basically "go" and "stop" — "action" and "inhibition". Alexander Technique uses the same vocabulary as the biologists, but Freud has muddied the waters here. "Inhibition" in AT terms doesn't mean suppressing some reaction (which ultimately will be by muscular tension). It just means "staying quiet" — doing nothing.

    Modern life seems to be very much "go" and little "stop" and maybe we get stuck in that mode … worth thinking about; worth doing something about.

    I've been sleeping for about 10 hours a day recently and my sleep quality feels ok but not great and I usually wake up more tight in the morning than throughout the day.
    That is interesting. This makes me wonder about your propensity to "tighten up". Kids can get tensed up through the day, but they tend to relax — or "release" might be a better word — once they fall asleep. You don't; you maybe get worse. That says something. This could be an acquired habit of tightening up that operates even when you're asleep. Actual Alexander Technique lessons might help to unstitch that, if that is the problem. The downside is they don't come cheap. Feldenkrais might do something of the same — never tried it myself, but have wanted to — but is probably cheaper, being a class activity not 1 to 1.

    I agree with other posters that chiropractic/osteopathy can do something. The downside I see to that is that it is something the practitioner does to you not something you learn to do for yourself. (Same goes for massage, helpful as it can be.) These techniques work; they probably wear off, because they don't engage with you and help you to do stuff for yourself.

    It gets a bit beyond me. There's some interesting stuff out there where people try to relate all these techniques to each other and to biology, philosophy — and "esoteric" practices, such as meditation. Here's an example:

    Alexander Technique: In Conversation with John Nicholls and Sean Carey: John Nicholls, Sean Carey: 9780951916902: Amazon.com: Books

    But easy to make one and one make three or none.

    There's stuff out there that people really pushing the envelope in the ancestral health community could get something out of.

    I have tried different sleeping positions, pillows, sleeping on the floor but no noticeable changes.
    Yeah, I'd think that could indicate that the source of the tension is in yourself, and trying to manipulate all this "externally" by those kind of means is not enough, good as all that may be in itself.

    If nothing else, you might try listening to music to distract you from any tension-producing thoughts and to help reorder things. I think music is probable huge and bigger than we yet realise.

    Cold showers or contrast showers give me some temporary relief, I've been doing that.
    Good.

    The calcium supplements have 400mg D3 in it, but I will try see if I can get Vitamin D's on their own particularly D3. I'll give oysters a shot. Thanks for your response.
    You're welcome. To be honest, you deserve better than I can do — who doesn't? I would get an actual figure on what your blood serum levels of D are at, though. It seems cheep enough to get that done by blood-spot test in most places. I'd aim for something like 100 nmol/L or even higher. Most paleo people seem to think that's good. Keep the vitamin A up too by regular consumption of liver and kidneys.

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