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  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    Well..... Technically only glucagon can cause fat loss.

    My answer to your question, yes but it's complicated

    As I have previously said in this thread... CICO is good as an over all description of what happens when the human body loses fat. As far as a recipe for fat loss, it is shithouse. This is why I took exception to your calorie doubling and halfing experiments, they prove nothing.

    As a little tit bit (and derp might take interest in this) my belief is that calories in and out are strongly CORRELATED with the true method of fat loss and gain which is catabolism and anabolism. So as you consume calories you tend to be more anabolic and as you reduce calories you're more catabolic. This is I believe why we see a lot of gray area in CICO, It follows the anabolic and catabolic cycles that our bodies constantly operate. But is not always exactly in line with those systems.


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    Do you have any research on the catabolism/anabolism ideas, or is it just something you came up with/read somewhere? I suppose there is potential in a theory like that. I'd be interested in reading more.

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxide View Post

    Meanwhile, we are STILL struggling with the "calories out" part of the CI=CO equation. Until that gets hammered out, these discussions will never end either way. But according to PB, if you increase your fat burner hormones, now you can burn fat really well, and the CO speeds up quite a bit and you can handle more fat CI. This is what the original OP was saying.
    Yes oxide, that pretty much is what I was saying at the beginning before this thread got all muddled with thermodynamics, naked squats, and random insults.

  3. #273
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    Why are people still posting in this thread? Why is this at the top of the thread list still?

    There are A LOT of women on this forum that need to stop thinking that younger men are somehow a totally different species than they are and that the rules somehow don't apply. Maybe instead of using older age and gender as an excuse for why you'll never be everything you want to be, you should try to emulate the characteristics of the younger men you simultaneously obsessively love and jealously hate. Join a gym - a REAL gym, not Planet Fitness - pick up some weights and start doing what the young, attractive men do. Your attitudes might change if you stop using age and gender as a crutch to half-ass your goals and you actually see that older women can be pretty damn strong and lean if they TRY.

    This is a great place to start:

    strengthcamp - YouTube

    Watch Elliot's videos and do what he tells you to do.

    For every difference between men and women, or older women and younger men, there are a thousand things that are exactly the same.





    Seriously.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 12-15-2013 at 10:08 PM.
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  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Why are people still posting in this thread? Why is this at the top of the thread list still?

    There are A LOT of women on this forum that need to stop thinking that younger men are somehow a totally different species than they are and that the rules somehow don't apply. Maybe instead of using older age and gender as an excuse for why you'll never be everything you want to be, you should try to emulate the characteristics of the younger men you simultaneously obsessively love and jealously hate. Join a gym - a REAL gym, not Planet Fitness - pick up some weights and start doing what the young, attractive men do. Your attitudes might change if you stop using age and gender as a crutch to half-ass your goals and you actually see that older women can be pretty damn strong and lean if they TRY.

    This is a great place to start:

    strengthcamp - YouTube

    Watch Elliot's videos and do what he tells you to do.

    For every difference between men and women, or older women and younger men, there are a thousand things that are exactly the same.





    Seriously.
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  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Why are people still posting in this thread? Why is this at the top of the thread list still?

    There are A LOT of women on this forum that need to stop thinking that younger men are somehow a totally different species than they are ... maybe instead of using older age and gender as an excuse for why you'll never be everything you want to be, you should try to emulate the characteristics of the younger men you simultaneously obsessively love and jealously hate ... stop using age and gender as a crutch to half-ass your goals ... Seriously.
    Seriously??? Nah, this thread gets more pathetic and ridiculous by the hour. Seriously.
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    My diet? Very low carb to initially lose weight, then moderate carbs (the past 12 years) for effortless weight maintenance. For me, the "carb curve" works like a charm. Once a week or so, I eat only one meal during the day (at late evening), as sort of a mini-fast.

  6. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by not on the rug View Post
    Do you have any research on the catabolism/anabolism ideas, or is it just something you came up with/read somewhere? I suppose there is potential in a theory like that. I'd be interested in reading more.
    Well its a bit of both really. I stumbled upon a web site produced by a university professor for his students and others, full of up-to date info (citing's from 2011, 2012 etc) on the human metabolism. It has a Diabetes's slant, but alot of unbiased info is there (just a professor rabbiting on about metabolism, not studying any kind of hypothesis or effect).

    MedBioStart

    look on the side section and pick a page to view. the "Insulin and Glucagon" page is awesome.

    Anyway that page gave me about 90% enlightenment and the rest was joining the dots with a bit of google Fu and thinking.


    but to summarize, these are the facts...

    Our body only detects or monitors one thing and that is Blood Glucose levels, everything else is run off that metric.

    Our bodies perpetually either excrete insulin or glucagon at varying ratios and amounts.

    The ratio of either hormone in the blood is solely dependent on the trend of Blood glucose, If it is above a tipping point (basal) a certain ratio of insulin will be excreted, if BG saturation moves higher, the insulin ratio increases. Same is true for glucagon except it operates on the down trend of blood glucose below the tipping point (basal).

    FFA levels operate outside of this system, meaning our bodies can't detect ffa levels in the blood, it could be high or low and the metabolism would be none the wiser. Fats can enter cells on their own but they cannot leave on their own.

    Insulin is the master builder of the body, It takes smaller molecules and helps the body build them into larger ones, ie it takes glucose and makes it into glycogen, it takes amino acids and turns them into protiens. it takes FFA's and turns them into triglycerides. Insulin is the anabolic hormone.

    Glucagon is the master breaker downer, it takes larger molecules and helps the body break them down into smaller ones. it converts glycogen into glucose, it converts triglycerides into FFA's, it converts amino acids into glucose. Glucagon is the catabolic hormone



    Now lets get down to the nitty gritty, regardless of the calorie amounts and macro types of any food, the body will detect changes in BG and act accordingly, this is all it knows how to do. ie release glucagon when BG is low and insulin when BG is high. lets look at what happens when we eat certain foods.

    Carbs.
    BG rises almost always above basal, insulin is released and all glucose in the blood above basal will be converted into larger "storage" molecules in certain areas (namely liver, muscle and fat cells). this happens quickly as the body prioritises storage when in excess.

    Fats.
    BG is almost always lower than basal after eating fats, so the body releases glucagon which breaks down all the larger storage molecules into usable energy molecules. for instance even while blood FFA's are rising glucagon still breaks down liver glycogen into glucose and Trigs into FFA's. Fats will still find their way into the bodies energy and storage cells even tho no insulin is present. cholymicrons do this.

    Protien.
    when amino's enter the blood stream, BG is still low, so glucagon stays dominant, this serves to convert the aminos into glucose, wich raise BG this turns down glucagon and raise insulin. this raised insulin then clears any excess glucose and we are back to low BG by wich more glucagon is released reraising BG and insulin. IN effect protien causes a balanced release of both hormones and the body is neither anabolic or catabolic.

    As you can see with the above, calorie intake correlates fairly well with our (creation/destruction) hormones, all tho a few gray areas are popping up already. with protien when the BG raises from glucagon's effect on the amino's, the increased insulin stores the amino's in other places like muscle. the same also applies to carbs, as insulin will shuttle the glucose into the liver and muscle in large amounts also. Fats are also hard to decifer as fat storage is still being reduced even in the presense of exogenous fats.

    More gray areas pop up when macros are combined...

    combine Carbs with Fat and the body will detect high BG and act accordingly, which is releasing insulin, which quickly stores all surplus energy, glucose and fats equally. this is the opposite of what happens when fat is ingested on its own. I would hazzard a guess that for a given time, much more fat will end up in storage if a little carbs are added to the meal.

    combine carbs with protiens and all the protien calories are wasted as there will be little glucagon present to turn the aminos into glucose, instead the higher insulin will drive the aminos into muscle (if there are new muscle cells available to be built) and any excess will be excreted as urea. eat the same calorie amount of protien with fat and its likely most of the protien will be converted into glucose to be either burned or stored as glycogen or fat.

    So in conclusion, "Calories in" correlates fairly well with anabolic and catabolic hormonal forces but there are also situations where the calorie in certain situations end up in a different spot (storage or energy stream) depending on what else is influencing the bodies hormones, ie stored calories can be less or more depending.
    Last edited by dilberryhoundog; 12-16-2013 at 06:55 AM.
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  7. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    ... but to summarize, these are the facts...

    Our body only detects or monitors one thing and that is Blood Glucose levels, everything else is run off that metric. Our bodies perpetually either excrete insulin or glucagon at varying ratios and amounts ...
    Aha, the thread isn't completely derailed after all.

    Excellent post. Thanks for taking the trouble to write that up.
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    My diet? Very low carb to initially lose weight, then moderate carbs (the past 12 years) for effortless weight maintenance. For me, the "carb curve" works like a charm. Once a week or so, I eat only one meal during the day (at late evening), as sort of a mini-fast.

  8. #278
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    you should try to emulate the characteristics of the younger men you simultaneously obsessively love and jealously hate. Join a gym - a REAL gym, not Planet Fitness - pick up some weights and start doing what the young, attractive men do. Your attitudes might change if you stop using age and gender as a crutch to half-ass your goals and you actually see that older women can be pretty damn strong and lean if they TRY.
    Oh I do, I work out 5 days a week, 275 lb deadlift, 195 lb squat, keep a pretty tight diet and do HIIT style cardio and while I will give myself strong, lean is pretty elusive. I work my ass off in the gym and it shows in my lifting numbers, but not so much my figure. I watch guys half ass what I do, and they admittedly halfass their diet and they do lean out quickly. I'll give that I am fighting many years of nutritional abuse heaped on my body.

    To Gorbag's comment- I do think for me, fat loss is slow, non-linear, with a lot of stalls, so it is difficult to judge the effectiveness of what I am doing.

    I will say, that in your late 30's/40's a woman's body makes some very big changes and they can be hard to manage. Your metabolism slows, period. Even if you work out. It's really frustrating to deal with. I don't know if men have a similar shift.

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  9. #279
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    ChocoTaco369, this is for you:

    Damn magnolia! Strong girl!

    I agree with you it is harder for girls to get the same immediate response to weight lifting as guys do. Less testosterone... But keep lifting and it will show in your figure too. I have only been grain-free/paleo for 1.5 years but I have cut out junk food (and relied on at most 1 serving of quinoa/brown rice/oatmeal and the the rest veggies/lean meat) for 5-6 years now. Every year I get a little bit better in shape...and in the past 4-5 months where I took lifting 10x more seriously is when I saw sculpting finally going on.
    Last edited by turquoisepassion; 12-16-2013 at 05:54 AM.
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  10. #280
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    On the food combining:

    combine Carbs with Fat and ... much more fat will end up in storage if a little carbs are added to the meal.

    This agrees with the Grok scenario. I don't know of any naturally occurring hunter-gather foods which are both carby and fatty. Maybe avocados?

    quickly stores all surplus energy, glucose and fats equally. this is the opposite of what happens when fat is ingested on its own.

    So fat is best eaten on its own? Woo-hoo, Bulletproof Coffee!!

    eat the same calorie amount of protien with fat and its likely most of the protien will be stored into fat cells.

    I don't get this one. So fatty meats will trigger the response to turn protein into fat? Should we be eating fat-free chicken breast on workout days?

    And what about the people here who combine everything into one-meal per day? But then, they're IF-ing, and I don't know what the insulin response is to that. I guess it's just a constant metabolic tug-o-war. No wonder CO is such a mystery. It changes with every meal.
    5'0" female, 43 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Current weight: skinny-fat 106.5 lbs because of sugar cheating.

    MY PRIMAL: I (try to) follow by-the-book primal as advocated by Mark Sisson, except for whey powder and a bit of cream. I aim for 80-90 g carb/day and advocate a two-month strict adjustment for newbies. But everybody is different and other need to tweak Primal to their own needs.

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