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Thread: Should I stay in ketosis even if I am not overweight? Or should I carb up? page

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    peass's Avatar
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    Should I stay in ketosis even if I am not overweight? Or should I carb up?

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    I am 34 years old, 74kg (now 70,3) and 20% bodyfat (now 19%). I ve started primal-lowcarb (~50g/day, probably in ketosis) exactly 14 days ago. My goal is to be leaner, around 14% body fat, as I was 5 years ago. If I can gain lean mass, even better.

    My carb flu started last week and it was relatively strong. Even now I do feel sleepy during the afternoons and sometimes a little bit foggy. I am also sleeping a lot more than I used to (1 hour+ each night, and sometimes 1 hour afternoon). I do strength training 3 times a week during the morning.

    Although I am not craving carbs anymore, should I get more carbs? Which ones? When? If I add them, can I still lose some bodyfat? I am not eating rice or any starches. Basically, my carbs come from 1 cup of milk, vegetables and 2-squares dark chocolate. I get lots of nuts, eggs, meat and water. Fish oil and coconut oil too.

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    Carbs aren't going to affect your weight loss. If you aren't feeling good without them, add them back in. And any carbs; fruit, tubers and rice.
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    It all depends. Just for the sake of experiment, you might want to stay in ketosis just to see how you feel when you are more adapted to it, maybe a month. Peter Attia's site is a good source of info for keto:
    The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D. The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D.

    If you don't feel good though, I say add them back in. You can certainly be lean and strong while eating carbs. I'm not totally convinced that keto-land is a magical place where weight sloughs off and you get leaner and stronger and feel great 24/7. Sure, it works for some people, but not for all. That's why I recommend giving it a trial, to see how it works for you.

    J. Stanton recently blogged about how it seems that keto-diets only offer a weight loss advantage if you stay really low-carb. It's from a mouse study, so take from it what you will:
    Carbohydrates Matter, At Least At The Low End (There Is No Such Thing As A “Calorie” To Your Body, Part VII) - GNOLLS.ORG

    If you do add carbs back in, post-workout is a good time to have them. Good sources are potatoes, sweet potatoes, plantains, yuca/cassava, yams, fruit, etc.

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    Also, you may want to reconsider whether fish oil is a good idea. Robb Wolf used to recommend mega-doses of it, but he has since admitted fault and no longer does. It's better to get your omega-3s from eating actual fish and not in huge amounts, just a few grams per day on average. Chris Kresser did a good series of blog posts a few years back on fish oil and omega 6/3:

    Why fish stomps flax as a source of omega-3
    How too much omega-6 and not enough omega-3 is making us sick
    How much omega-3 is enough? That depends on omega-6.
    The definitive fish oil buyer’s guide

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    Quote Originally Posted by peass View Post
    Although I am not craving carbs anymore, should I get more carbs?
    i would say yes!

    Quote Originally Posted by peass View Post
    Which ones?
    Potatoes, white rice, tubers in general and fruits.

    Quote Originally Posted by peass View Post
    When?
    mmm, when you eat a meal ?

    Quote Originally Posted by peass View Post
    If I add them, can I still lose some bodyfat?
    Of course, but it is a little complicated as your metabolism is yours and there are SO MANY factors to weight loss ... a good template is this: if you want to run on fat, don't eat either a heavy breakfast or lunch. Play it Warrior Diet kind of (a couple of fruits, a slice of aged cheese or a few healthy nuts but not more than that, I am not talking about snacking here). Have a good substantial dinner including proteins, starches / fruits and good fats as condiments (i.e. don't swallow gallons of heavy cream, don't add a stick of butter in your coffee, etc). Prefer sat fats from meat, and eat fatty fish, organs, etc. For the plant stuff, roasted potatoes, stir-fried rice, etc. Non starchy veggies as you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by peass View Post
    I am not eating rice or any starches. Basically, my carbs come from 1 cup of milk, vegetables and 2-squares dark chocolate. I get lots of nuts, eggs, meat and water. Fish oil and coconut oil too.
    I'd say drop the fish oil, nuts and CO, keep eggs, meat and milk. Replace these oils by starchy veggies and rice.

    AND! don't over do it, eat until you feel comfortably full, and adapt to your work out.

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    beginning ketosis can whack out your electrolytes -- that's the carb flu. have a cup of bone broth with sodium each day and that should help.

    some have better luck with if or a smaller window for eating to lean out, but if you're lc now, give it 4-6 weeks, with the broth, and see how you feel.
    As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

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    carbing up refers to eating a wagon-load of carbs to your diet periodically, after you exhausted the supply via VLC+isolating & high rep routines (or other methods). This type of programming is extremely successful in dropping fat off while preserving muscle. It is however, not for the faint of heart if you want it quick (Cyclic-Ketonic or Ultimate Diet 2.0) as it involves eating your double calories from basically plain starch on one day or will take a long time (IF with Lean gains approach).

    If you simply want to feel better, you can either drop your activity level and stay ketogenic (with bone broth!!!) OR you can get your carbs daily to 75-150 g and eat 'em after training/before bed for better sleep and use.
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    The primal blueprint doesn't advocate ketosis, you know. It advocates a moderate carb approach somewhere between 75 and 150 grams of carbohydrate each day. If you are on a weight loss diet, then this is more than enough carbohydrate and would certainly include daily potatoes/fruit.

    If you would truly like to change your body composition you should look into the primal fitness portion. This isn't just a diet, it's also an exercise program/philosophy and a way of life (sunlight, adequate sleep and darkness, play, forming real connections with people, etc.)
    Female, 5'3", 49, Starting weight: 163lbs. Current weight: 135 (more or less).
    Starting squat: 45lbs. Heaviest squat: 180 x 2. Heaviest Deadlift: 230 x 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by peass View Post
    I am 34 years old, 74kg (now 70,3) and 20% bodyfat (now 19%). I ve started primal-lowcarb (~50g/day, probably in ketosis) exactly 14 days ago. My goal is to be leaner, around 14% body fat, as I was 5 years ago. If I can gain lean mass, even better.

    My carb flu started last week and it was relatively strong. Even now I do feel sleepy during the afternoons and sometimes a little bit foggy. I am also sleeping a lot more than I used to (1 hour+ each night, and sometimes 1 hour afternoon). I do strength training 3 times a week during the morning.

    Although I am not craving carbs anymore, should I get more carbs? Which ones? When? If I add them, can I still lose some bodyfat? I am not eating rice or any starches. Basically, my carbs come from 1 cup of milk, vegetables and 2-squares dark chocolate. I get lots of nuts, eggs, meat and water. Fish oil and coconut oil too.
    Why would you think ketosis is good for your situation? You're young, not overweight and you want to be leaner - ketosis would be the worst diet for you. Ketosis is a metabolic rate designed for people that are starving to death - it slows down protein wasting by supplementing ketones for your brain so your body devours your lean mass for glucose at a lesser rate. There is a reason why your body avoids ketosis at all costs - if it occurs naturally (i.e. not purposely avoiding a plethora of foods and shoveling down refined coconut oil to stay in ketosis), you're almost certainly starving. If you're a cancer patient or going on a hunger strike, ketosis is for you. If you want to be happy, warm, energetic and vibrant, I suggest you look elsewhere.

    Weight loss is calorically driven. Carbs have nothing to do with it. You should be trying to maximize your metabolic rate, warmth, mood and energy so you have the physical drive to go out there and do shit that builds muscle and burns fat, like picking really heavy shit off the ground, pushing really heavy shit off your chest while you're lying on your back, lifting really heavy shit over your head and crouching down really low with heavy shit on your back, then standing back up.

    Translation: heat high protein, a healthy mix of fat and carbs (fats from primarily SFA sources and carbs from starches/fruits), then lift like a beast and start doing conditioning exercises (farmers walks, plow/sled work, sprints).

    You haven't felt a cold winter until you've spent one in ketosis. Nothing like sub-freezing outdoor temps and a 95 degree body temperature!
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 12-11-2013 at 10:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by peass View Post
    I am 34 years old, 74kg (now 70,3) and 20% bodyfat (now 19%). I ve started primal-lowcarb (~50g/day, probably in ketosis) exactly 14 days ago. My goal is to be leaner, around 14% body fat, as I was 5 years ago. If I can gain lean mass, even better.

    My carb flu started last week and it was relatively strong. Even now I do feel sleepy during the afternoons and sometimes a little bit foggy. I am also sleeping a lot more than I used to (1 hour+ each night, and sometimes 1 hour afternoon). I do strength training 3 times a week during the morning.

    Although I am not craving carbs anymore, should I get more carbs? Which ones? When? If I add them, can I still lose some bodyfat? I am not eating rice or any starches. Basically, my carbs come from 1 cup of milk, vegetables and 2-squares dark chocolate. I get lots of nuts, eggs, meat and water. Fish oil and coconut oil too.
    You seem to be about the same age and weight as me! I did really well in ketosis for about three months. I added carbs back when I got down to about 148lbs (started at about 165). I was just ready to halt the fat loss, and for me moving carbs up to about 100g/day did the trick.

    What should you do? Well that's totally up to you, but ketosis is very doable and quite healthy for the vast majority. Its just not absolutely necessary, and it does take getting your electrolytes balanced (as noodle and lydia said). Up to 150g of carbs/day from primal sources are absolutely fine, especially if you are active. If you are adding them back I suggest squash, fruit, and sweet potato (paleo sources) surrounding your workouts (pre/post).....that is when they are most effectively burned for energy and/or stored as glycogen.

    Carb cycling has been around for quite a while as well. Like 150g on workout days and bellow 50 on non-working days. Thats if you are trying to lean out.

    Either way ignore both the hype of ketosis AND the fearmongering that some present. Its not magically going to make you skinny as a rail (though it kinda did for me), nor is it going to cause any waste in muscle or low body temp (products of low calorie, not ketosis). If anything the experiments show it to be a most lean mass sparing state. Its just that its not the only way to skin that cat. Good luck either way.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 12-11-2013 at 12:19 PM.

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