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  1. #21
    Daemonized's Avatar
    Daemonized is offline Senior Member
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    I used to hunt for rabbits and squirrels on my family's farm when I was a child. My grandparents lived there and we came to visit them. Cleaning the games was something that my grandfather and I did together and somehow brought us closer together. I never enjoyed the killing part and I'd always go for head shots and do anything that I could keep an animal from ongoing pain. I could still kill to eat, but I don't enjoy hurting things and I take no pleasure in it.

  2. #22
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    An interesting read for anyone comtemplating the ethics of humans killing animals, is "The Raptor and the Lamb: Predators and Prey in the Living World" by Christopher McGowan.

    McGowan, Curator of Vertebrate Paleontology at the Royal Ontario Museum in Totonto and professor of zoology at U of Toronto, explores the essence of predator-prey relationships, taking you on a guided tour through the very different but often overlapping worlds of mammals, birds, fish, reptiles, plants, insects, and microorganisms, as well as fossilized records of the dinosaurs. We learn, in every instance, not only the intricacies of interdependence in the vast chain of being but also the astonishing adaptabiltiy that is inherent in nature, weather the drama be played out on the African plains, in the depths of the ocean, or in the familiar confines of our own backyard.

    Helen in Oz: Its interesting, to have to address the question of whether or not our advanced self-awareness and ability to have rational thought somehow elevates us to the top of the food chain. Does it? Non-meat eaters are quick to say this is it just our hubris as a species supplying a convenient excuse to dine on the less intellegient beings on our planet. I disagree with them. Animals dining on other animals is a constant in nature, it is the driving force of all ecosystems, as much as water is the driving force of all life on earth in the first place. Its easy to forget this, as we are separated from our animal brethren, and live our lives in comfortable isolation from the harsh realities of nature. McGowans book has reminded me that, yes, humans are not all that special or unique physiologically. While our minds have developed, our bodies are still animal bodies, ones that require animal nourishment. It is in my opinion that vegans and vegetarians are the ones that take on a holier-than-thou position, not the meat eaters, as they reject the notion that we are intrinsically tied to nature and the earth, and assume we are somehow excused from the great web of life due to our intellegience. We are all one on this planet, and I believe that consumming animals for nourishment is one of the most natural things we can do. To say otherwise........to suggest that humans are somehow "better" than this....is the real hubris.


    Just an example of how shelterd we are to the facts of nature (the bloody, gorey facts!) Here is an excerpt from the section on orcas, or killer whales, from McGowan's book.

    What images do we associate with orcas? Sea World? Free Willy? We are in denial, as a species, about the true nature of animals (including ourselves). Enjoy:

    page 73, chapter "Death at Sea"

    "A pod of killer whales cruises off the rocky california coast on a spring morning, about one mile from shore. They are seven in number and include an adult males and two calves. He is easily distiguished from the females by his tall, straight dorsal fin. They are probably a family unit. Their course lies parallel to the shore, and they seem to be in no hurry.

    They maintain the same course and speed for almost an hour. Then, for no apparant reason, they make a right angeled turn and head for shore. Their previous progress had been orderly, maintaining a discreet formation, but they are now spreading out on a broad crescentic fron, leaping and gamboling in the water like children at play. And now the reason for their change in behavior becomes apparant: they have intercepted a large herd of sea lions. The sea lions are no match for the killer whales, and their only salvation lies in reaching the land. In their desperation to reach safety, they abandon their usual mode of swimming and pare porpoising along the surface at great speed. The whales swim beside them, dive beneath them, and cut in front of them, apparently having the time of their lives. The sea lions are obviosly terrified, but the whales seem to be playing with them. One of the whales leaps right out of the water, clean over the top of a fleeing pinniped, leanding with a resounding splash several yards ahead of it. Sometimes a tormentor bumps up against a sea lion, knocking it off course. Another time a killer whale dives and surfaces directly beneath one, sending it flying in the air. These exuberant antics may appear to be random, but the killer whale's sport is not without purpose. Their crescentic formation has been getting narrower-they are herding the sea lions closer together.

    The pinnipeds, now in a tight formation, are close to exhaustion, but their tormentors seem to have energy to spare. The game seems destined to continue until the sea lions have hauled up on land - they only have 100 yards to go - but then the killing begins. Like so many cats with so many mice, the whales throw themselves at the sea lions, biting and slashing, mauling and dismembering, so that the sea foams red with their frenzy. Each whale spends the minimum amount of time with its prey before moving on to the next, and within a few minutes, all the sea lions are dead.

    Torn bodies heave and tumble in the swell. A ragged torso, trailing a knot of bloated intestines, bobs against a severed head. Flocks of gulls swoop and dive, screeching raucously as they pick over the spoils. The whales, the killing done and their former demeanor restored, swim slowly through the carnage as if witnessing the deeds of others. They begin to feed unhurriedly. Each one will leave with a full stomach."


    Orcas are highly intellegient beings, capable of problem solving, and advanced group hunting techniques. Should we expect them, as well, to abadon the killing, just because they are intellectually superior to their prey? This scene is not one of notable horror or maliciousness. This is business as usual for nature, and vegetarians, seem to forget that THIS is the norm, not the other way around. If all killing were to cease on Earth, the planet would die.
    Last edited by lmyers04; 06-12-2010 at 09:44 AM.

  3. #23
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    i am a way empathetic person. like, growing up i thought my *stuffed animals* had feelings. while i do recognize that my meat on my plate comes from killing, i dont know if i could do it myself. however, i have been pushing my own personal comfort levels over the past few years, so at some point i'd like to try it.

    and then go hug my teddy bear.


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  4. #24
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    The only hesitation I have about killing for food is the fear of messing up and leaving a wounded animal.
    I've killed a chicken (using this method http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UahVDgXszyM ) and it was okay. I hunt rabbits but haven't got one yet! Anything bigger and I'm not sure... I'd like to, but it'd take years to get through the red tape.

  5. #25
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    I'm enjoying reading the responses. I often think about many of these things myself.

    I would love to learn how to hunt and butcher my own meat. I imagine that I'd be somewhat shocked at the process at first, but eventually I'd get used to it.

    If I were to ever encounter a vegetarian/vegan I would ask them to step in front of a lion as it prepares to dine on a gazelle and explain why eating meat is wrong and how much of a bad animal they are. Maybe they could get their point across that way.

  6. #26
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    What snobbery. I have known many vegetarians. They did not disparage me for eating meat. They lived their lives and let me have mine. They didn't consider me to be a brainless entity. Not so with too many of you folk on this forum. If it isn't your style, it has no worth and would only be considered by clowns and brainless simpletons. Who is acting brainless and simple?

    I live and have lived following this sort of diet "forever". I need to remind you that science changes regularly. Perhaps what we have is just today's CW. Tell me it works so it is great. Then tell me that apple cider vinegar can't be good even though it works because your CW is against it. There are many people on many systems who are living well and thriving. They usually don't consider themselves superior to the rest of the world.

    Grow up.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gator View Post
    What snobbery. I have known many vegetarians. They did not disparage me for eating meat. They lived their lives and let me have mine. They didn't consider me to be a brainless entity. Not so with too many of you folk on this forum. If it isn't your style, it has no worth and would only be considered by clowns and brainless simpletons. Who is acting brainless and simple?

    I live and have lived following this sort of diet "forever". I need to remind you that science changes regularly. Perhaps what we have is just today's CW. Tell me it works so it is great. Then tell me that apple cider vinegar can't be good even though it works because your CW is against it. There are many people on many systems who are living well and thriving. They usually don't consider themselves superior to the rest of the world.

    Grow up.
    +1 people on this board do tend to be on a high horse. I swear and live by this lifestyle, but I find a lot of us are to quick to discredit others. I may not agree, for example, with certain religions, but you will never catch me talking down to others beliefs. Live by your life that you love, listen to others opinions, and respect them, no matter how different. Its to his/her own to find their root through life, and there is no right or wrong way. Our way just happens to be the primal way


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  8. #28
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    The only way I'd kill an animal is by shooting it from a distance. I don't think I could grab it and kill it... but shooting it would be fucking fun. With a sniper... But then where would I shoot? Head? I want to eat the brains. Heart? I want to eat it too.
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  9. #29
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    My first attempt of preparing a killed animal was a time when my neighbor hit a pheasant with his car. He of course stopped the car, tracked down the wounded animal, and put an end to its agony. As he knows were economically challenged he came in and handed me this beautiful bird and said that dinner was on him. I was nervous. The animal was dead, yes, so I couldn’t hurt it, but I had never stripped a carcass before. I did, however, get a good insight into anatomy. I think what threw me off the most was that when I opened up the animal and removed internal organs etc. it didn’t look like the chickens I had seen my mom prepare when I was a child. The reason was that this animal was mortally wounded: broken hips, ribs, bleedings in the musculature etc. It made me think about life; especially the fact that this life had ended not long before, and that it was an accident that lead to a mercy kill that lead to my dinner. The cow in the butcher’s cooler often dies a horrible death. This animal didn’t … compare to the cow. This may sound odd, but I felt strangely honored to eat that night; having had the still warm body to prepare in my hands only hours earlier.

    Our dog got the rest and she looked happy too.

    Autumn

  10. #30
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    It's all about respect for life. As a kid I was fishing a lot, both inland and at sea, and whenever we caught some we treated the fish with respect and made the kill and butchering as clean as possible. Why? It would otherwise be unnecessary suffering for the animal, and waste of food as the meat usually gets bad if not treated right. Then the kill would be pointless and without respect.

    Same goes for land living animals, even though the animals I kill now a days aren't for consuming as it is usually my cats that brings home mice and birds. I always feel bad for those, because they are an unnecessary kill. Except for ending their suffering.

    <rant mode>
    The worst thing I see is the hunter putting his foot on the carcass, gun in one hand bragging about his kill while having his photograph taken. Come autumn and the local newspaper is full of that shit. WTF is up with that? It is without the respect for the life you've just taken and a hunt should not be about trophy, but sustenance. Rejoice in the happiness that your stomach once will be fed, and be happy to share with the rest of your "tribe". Don't disrespect the life you took.
    </rant mode>

    Phew - good to have it off my chest.
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