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Thread: Fish oil and the Great PUFA controversy page

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    RittenRemedy's Avatar
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    Fish oil and the Great PUFA controversy

    Primal Fuel
    While I think all us primals can agree the highly processed and mostly oxidized polyunsaturated fats crowding shelf space with our beloved olive oil or muscling out our favorite saturated fats in restaurant cooking are pretty much awful, there seem to be a lot of opinions after that.

    Classic primals say to limit O6 and intentionally seek out O3 to combat inflammation for a long, pain free life.

    A lot of the relaxed primals and traditional foodies lean towards eating natural foods with a little to no supplementation and let everything work itself out naturally.

    And then Peat avoids it entirely, saying excess O3 isn't needed when O6 is also limited.

    (Ignoring the laundry list I'm on to treat a gut issue,) I don't generally trust supplements; I'm even super suspicious of the D I take in the winter to stave off the SAD. Lately I've been told to take a high dose of O3 for shoulder pain (chronic injury). Is it possible this is just more CW that started out right and went a little too far? Is there a safe (reliably not oxidized or tainted) O3 supplement? Can sardines be made palatable??

    Basically, are O3s worth it?

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    MaceyUK's Avatar
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    O3s are necessary to undo the damage of 06. If you could eliminate O6 you probably wouldn't have any specific requirement for a fatty acid designed to resist cell membranes freezing in arctic fish. I eat sardines a few times a week and find them quite palatable but I also like a bit of chicken etc. As far as joint pain is concerned I would try making some bone broth as I am convinced that everything needed to heal a joint is to be found in an animals joints.
    Man seeks to change the foods available in nature to suit his tastes, thereby putting an end to the very essence of life contained in them.
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    KimchiNinja's Avatar
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    I don't understand all the PUFA tech-talk around here. Thought you just eat real food and things work out.

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    Real food is fine but inevitably some people have more damage to undo and some peeps love spicy chicken wings so much that they can't do without them
    Pufas polyunsaturated fatty acids are found in seeds and cold water fish. They have evolved these fats to avoid freezing at low temperatures. Mammals like us don't store fat in this way as no matter how cold we get we don't go solid....and if we do it means we are dead. Pufas provoke an inflammatory response in mammalian tissue. Omega threes undo the damage done by omega 6 as they are anti-inflammatory. The jury is out on whether they are of any benefit in the absence of omega 6 pufas.
    This is important stuff in the quest for nutritional perfection.
    Man seeks to change the foods available in nature to suit his tastes, thereby putting an end to the very essence of life contained in them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaceyUK View Post
    Mammals like us don't store fat in this way as no matter how cold we get we don't go solid....and if we do it means we are dead. Pufas provoke an inflammatory response in mammalian tissue. Omega threes undo the damage done by omega 6 as they are anti-inflammatory.
    Okay, that's the first time anyone put it in a way that makes sense. I eat fatty fish almost every day (O3), chicken almost never (O6), eggs/nuts most days (O6). No idea what that means. Guess need to calc a ratio or something...

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    Quote Originally Posted by KimchiNinja View Post
    Okay, that's the first time anyone put it in a way that makes sense. I eat fatty fish almost every day (O3), chicken almost never (O6), eggs/nuts most days (O6). No idea what that means. Guess need to calc a ratio or something...
    I gotta admit, I agree with you on the real food should sort things out bit. Especially if your real food ate its own real food. Though, the food I can get here most likely didn't.

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    I supplement fermented cod liver oil for me and my kids. But the DHA and EPA in it is just a sidebar to all the other great stuff.... A,D, K (butter oil form), and as they say, the thousands of other molecular structures known and unknown. But in a teaspoon there is 500mg of DHA. Good for cognitive development and all....my boys dislike seafood so this is one reason to supplement in a concentrated form ....but for all intensive purposes FCLO actually IS a real food in my book rather than a supplement.

    Edit: rather than adding another comment Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA): An Ancient Nutrient for the Modern Human Brain
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 11-19-2013 at 09:22 AM.

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    I do 2Tbs of chia seeds every morning, hydrated in H2O:

    Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Seeds, chia seeds, dried

    Very good natural plant source of O3's. Lots of fiber, in fact almost all the carbs are in fiber form. It'll take your GI tract a while to adapt to the fiber, so if you go this route increase amounts very gradually.

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    Context. Context is all that matters.

    Where did the n3:n6 ratio myth start? Does anyone really think that matters? It is no surprise people with better n3:n6 are healthier, but it isn't because of the ratio. Clearly, it is far easier to get n6 into the modern diet, so people with better n3:n6 ratios simply have a much lower intake of polyunsaturated fat. THAT is the true causative relationship, here. A higher n3:n6 ratio simply correlates with a lower overall intake of PUFA, but it is the low PUFA intake that is causative, not the ratio. This is an important article to read because it so amazingly accurate:

    Fats and Oils: The importance of temperature

    The melting and freezing points of fats play a major role in the human body. Saturated and monounsaturated fats are stable at 98.6 degrees F. Polyunsaturated fats are not. Polyunsatured fats maintain their liquid form at negative degrees. Consider that putting arachidonic acid inside the human body puts it something like 150 degrees ABOVE its melting point. Consider that putting coconut oil inside the body is only putting it around 10 degrees above its melting point. Consider placing your hand inside a pot of boiling water and the damage it would do to your hand, and that's only at 115 degrees above your body temperature. The human body temperature is extremely hot compared to polyunsaturated fat - hotter than your hand in boiling water. Context is everything.

    Now, I'm not saying wild salmon and raw almonds are the same as soybean oil. These foods come loaded with antioxidants and vitamins (specifically Vitamin E) to help your body deal with the oxidation of the PUFA's and stabilize it. I still find beef and lamb far healthier than salmon and almonds, but I don't think they are agents of disease, here. The refined vegetable oils clearly are, though. They are stripped of their protective antioxidants, so they cause major damage in the body. Now, let's understand that EPA and DHA are far LESS STABLE than the ALA-based omega 3's and the omega 6's found in the polyunsatured seed oils because they are much longer-chain fatty acids (more open bonds = more instability). Fish oil is more prone to rancidity than soybean oil, it's refined THE SAME WAY, and we're putting that in our body as a health food? Huh? It's WORSE.

    There probably isn't much of a reason to be scared of fresh, raw nuts (save weight gain, allergens and their fattening nature) or fresh, wild salmon, but RUN AWAY from their isolated oils.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 11-19-2013 at 08:41 AM.
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    ^Great explanation. Probably one of the best write-ups I've ever seen on this topic.
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