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Thread: Some interesting thoughts involving fruits, vegetables, and protein. page

  1. #1
    Ripped's Avatar
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    Cool Some interesting thoughts involving fruits, vegetables, and protein.

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    Hi folks,
    Apologies ahead of time if this post is too long, but hopefully something good will come out of it.

    I read a book recently called 80 10 10 (811 for short) by Douglas Graham which is a fruitarian book. I got a lot of good ideas from it. And I highly recommend it as a good read. Mainly where it is similar to PB is that they both try to model diet based on what they think our ancestors ate. The main difference between the plans is that 811 goes back in time much further before we had tools as well as the discovery of fire.

    There really was some interesting things I noticed when going over the points of the different books. In PB Mark recommends a moderate amount of exercise in modern times, even though he says Grok would have done A LOT more than what he is recommending. So from that it's easy to conclude that Grok would have had much greater energy requirements than ours and probably would have gotten it from fruits "if" he had access to it. So to account for the difference, PB recommends a lower amount of carbs.

    811 on the other hand recommends both A LOT of exercise which would clearly require A LOT of carbs from fruit. Truth be told, if Mark is correct about how much physical activity Grok used to get, then such recommendations aren't such a bad idea. That is if you actually believe in a low fat diet. But either way, low fat or not, one's energy requirements are higher with more physical activity. But if one does it 811 style, the sugar gets used up easily because there's less energy from fat, and it's really hard to go overboard on calories from fruits and vegetables. We're not talking your typical vegetarian or vegan diet where they allow fish, dairy, and grains; such foods don't exist with 811, only fruits and vegetables and very small amounts of nuts seeds and fatty fruits.

    With that in mind, how many people have we seen try PB, but don't do it right? Mark recommends fruits and vegetables as the base of his food pyramid and also claims that it's a mistake to have little to no carbs, but how many people have you seen on here eating 70% fat, little to no carbs, and then they wonder why they're not losing weight?

    Here's another interesting thing to note. In the book "How Much Protein?" by Brad Pilon, he sites studies indicating that one only needs 60-120 grams of protein per day in order to build muscle. That's not for health. But if you ask me, if you have enough extra protein to build muscle, you probably also have enough protein for health, otherwise your body wouldn't be using it to build muscle. Here's where it gets interesting. If one actually followed the guidelines of 811 with both diet and exercise requirements, your protein ends up falling within the range recommended by Brad Pilon. In other words, you can get all your protein requirements from fruit alone, even enough to build muscle. I'm not sure if I would recommend trying such a stunt if you're relatively sedentary however, because the protein can end up being a little low if your overall calories are too low.

    Douglas Graham also recommends a very low fat intake. He also discusses in 811 how most people consume way too much fat without even knowing it, including raw vegans who consume too much nuts, seeds, oils, etc., thinking that they're eating healthy, when in reality they're calories end up being 70% from fat. That's why they fail. It's too much.

    So here's what I gather from all of this:
    1. Most people in the modern world consume WAY too much fat by adding oils to their diet. This has been my standpoint for a long time.
    2. Most people in the modern world don't eat enough fruit and vegetables.
    3. Protein is something one should never have to worry about. At the minimum, you can get enough from fruit only. But if you don't eat that way, clearly you'll get enough when including other protein sources such as eggs, meat, and fish.
    4. Also note that the more empty calories you consume the more your nutrition goes down. Adding extra processed sugars and oils only adds calories without the nutrition. If you try to do it that way while only consuming enough calories to maintain weight, your protein and micronutrients go down.
    5. Most people in modern times don't get enough exercise. This doesn't mean to go and run a marathon or anything. But surely everyone could use A LOT more walking and other low-moderate activities.

    So personally, since I'm not an extremist when it comes to diet, it is my idea to try to do things similar to that described in "The Warrior Diet". My idea is to try to add more fruits and vegetables in earlier in the day. Then hopefully start dinner with a salad. I'll proceed to include protein sources if I want. And then if I'm still hungry I'll finish with more fruit as dessert. Anything else I might eat would be the 20% in the 80/20 rule, but with increased intake from fruit, I don't see such as being an issue. Also, I'll try to be more active.

    Just wanted to share. Tell me what you think. I might have some other thoughts on the subject matter, but I'm tired right now and the post is long enough.
    Peace.

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    The problem with going back much farther than tool use & fire is that our gut had significant changes as well, many of these angles look back to chimps, but their gut is much longer than ours and hence they can handle a lot of vegetable matter better than we can.
    When we diverged from chimps, they went up into the trees and we spent most of our time on the ground, so although we did get some fruit, the bulk of our tucker was likely starchy tubers, insects, grubs and scavanged kills.

    One of the main criticisms of the fruitarian diet is that most of them would die of starvation without their juicer, simply because of the volume of food required to pass your lips.
    If you were to cross the 811 with primal, that would probably still be in a really healthy range, any further than that and I don't think you'll be doing yourself any favours.
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    Increased exercise means you can eat more fruit in order to get enough protein but exercise will require increasing protein as it is largely catabolic. I am not a big fan of fructose either bearing in mind its link to nafld and raised triglycerides. Good luck. Let us know how you get on.
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    This would be an awesome diet for very rich people and very poor people who have time to not only exercise all day but eat all day, too. For the rest of us in the middle, satiety will probably remain king.


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    I am not sure people of northern descent should adopt a more fruit based diet as fruits were not exactly abundant in northern areas save for berries. These people need animal based foods, including organs in order to thrive. People from tropical areas adapted to a more fruit and veg based diet, adding animal stuff here and there. I know, I am brushing a picture with broad strokes but no one will convince me (book or not) that we should all go one extreme or another. It just happened so that some people adapted to their environments, and their survival over time is proof of it, regardless of their (naturally available) diet.

    Us in the middle (as Knifegill points out) who don't have to adapt to environmental limits, courtesy of industrial agro-biz, supermarkets, etc, have to be a little more careful and aware of the content of our plates ... PB is a good template for that, if you remove the carb vs fat crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifegill View Post
    This would be an awesome diet for very rich people and very poor people who have time to not only exercise all day but eat all day, too.
    Isn't that what people in the USA do anyways? Eat all day and night?

    Some fruits are easier to eat anyways. Bananas and mangos have plenty of calories in them. It just depends on what you eat. I couldn't imagine getting all my calories from grapefruit, too big, too satiating!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Knifegill View Post
    For the rest of us in the middle, satiety will probably remain king.
    I'm actually convinced that there's no support for foods in which we think are satiating, but really aren't. There was a well researched article on abcbodybuilding.com that discussed some foods and their satiety rating and put them in a chart. Protein is actually satiating without a doubt, almost the highest on the list. Starchy carbs are up there, but not quite as much. The highest is foods with lots of water in them such as soups, boiled potatoes (WAY more satiating than baked), and watery fruits such as water mellon and citrus fruits such as oranges and grapefruit.

    Have you ever actually tried stuffing yourself with fruits (could be mixed) but including citrus fruits? A few years ago when I tried my own version of the warrior diet, I was doing it that way for lunch. The food was absolutely delicious and would leave me feeling stuffed. For dinner I'd finish off with a huge steak or another protein source and that'd be enough, I'd have no room left for starchy carbs.

    Anyways, fruit is a good food. It tastes absolutely delicious. I think not eating fruit is mainly just a habit in modern society than anything. People just eat the way they do and they get stuck in their ways.

    Why do people eat grains so much for example? Try giving it up for a while and then eating pizza and tell me how it tastes. Pizza doesn't taste so good, it makes you feel like crap, it doesn't satiate, and people eat it anyways. But why? Well pizza surely beats plain pieces of bread when you're used to eating toast, hot dogs, and sanwiches, but it doesn't beat eating real food (which isn't grains).

    Here's another way to think about it. Omnivorous or not. People are so used to eating their packaged foods that aren't even real foods such as ice cream, twizzlers, cookies, bread, and that's normal to them, even though it makes them fat and sick. Yet the idea of eating a banana or a mango seems alien.

    Sorry, but people in modern society have been brainwashed. Companies such as Hostess and Kellogg's are winning, the fruit companies are losing. Because of great commercialism.

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    Anyways folks, I'm just saying. Disagree with an extreme approach or not. All I'm saying is eat more fruits, no matter what style diet you choose, primal, vegetarian, raw vegan, what ever, (extreme low carb dieters is the exception), more fruits percentage wise can only help you, not hurt you. It's real food. Probably 90% of the stuff you see on market shelves today simply isn't real food.

    That and 811 was a dam good read. Again, disagree with an extreme approach and that book was still filled with gems. Very science based and well researched. But I liked the advice that Clarence Bass used to give for reading his own books. That is, take the advice that rings true to you and leave the rest.

    Personally, like I said, I'm not an extremist. The take home message was eat more fruit because it's real food and it's good for you. That and exercise more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrenchFry View Post
    Us in the middle (as Knifegill points out) who don't have to adapt to environmental limits, courtesy of industrial agro-biz, supermarkets, etc, have to be a little more careful and aware of the content of our plates ... PB is a good template for that, if you remove the carb vs fat crap.
    I agree with that. But why do you think I was open minded enough to read a fruitarian book? I knew I'd get something good out of it so long as it was an actual descent science based book. I liked the advice Clarence Bass used to give about reading his own books. That is, take what rings true to you and leave the rest.

    One reason in my eyes of why people fail on diets is because of context. And that's where I think people go wrong with PB. They take things out of context and before you know it, they're on some wacky extreme high fat low-no carb diet. Mark never said that! He just mainly said eat real food and limit your carb intake unless you're exercising more.

    Anyways, my main point is, the more you read and the more experience you get, the better you become at understanding things and knowing how to put it into context and make sense of it. You learn to distinguish the facts from the dogma. You learn to think for yourself.

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    I'm thinking of trying this to an extent. I just bought a blender so I'll be having banana and date smoothies and blended oranges for breakfast and lunch with a cooked meal at night. I don't usually feel like cooked food until well after lunch so it should suit me well.
    Doug graham isn't as extreme as durianrider and says people don't have to follow 801010 exactly all the time. He just says that the more you move towards a fruit based diet the better.
    Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 11-13-2013 at 04:11 AM.

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    I think "eat more fruit, but make sure to account for it in your caloric expenditure" is a good take-away message. What you wrote about is rather in line with Ray Peat's concepts. Exchange some fat for fruit, though it sounds like this 8-1-1 thing doesn't use animal protein at all.

    Of course, there are a lot of people who come to the Primal Blueprint specifically because they have issues processing fructose or any form of sugar. There is, on the one hand, the issue of refined sugar, which should not be lumped with sugar in fruit form (unaltered sugar sources). On the other hand, some people with insulin resistance can't handle fruit either. I'm not going to pretend to understand how to go about fixing that. I know a good number of people who thrive on a low-fruit diet, with relatively (to the rest of the US) low-carb primal base for the rest of their intake.
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