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Thread: Some interesting thoughts involving fruits, vegetables, and protein. page 5

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMonkey View Post
    3. I don't think this is true. Firstly individual plant foods are deficient in one or more amino acids, meaning you have to eat a mixture to get all your protein needs.
    The story I heard is that you don't have to get every different amino acid in one shot. You can get all of them on average over time. That means the lady who originally wrote on mixing foods was wrong, and the belief that you have to get your protein from animal sources is wrong. (I of course am not implying that one shouldn't eat meat. I'm just pondering on what you can and can't do.)

    Quote Originally Posted by AMonkey View Post
    The FDA recommends at least 65g of protein a day for base health. Weight lifters consume at least 1g of protein a day for muscle building and strength gains. Clinical studies consistently show that around 2g of protein per kilogram of body weight leads to maximal strength gains. So if we were to only eat bananas then:
    - 100 grams of banana contains 1g of protein and 89 calories
    - You would need to eat 6.5kg of bananas to meet the minimum protein requirements, which is over 5000 kcal
    - Avocados have double the protein of banana's but more calories
    - So its really not doable to get the protein from only fruit and veggies. Legumes are the only option really (26g protein per 100g dry lentils)
    FINALLY!!! I have someone who finally at least mentions about the studies. Can you please point me in the right direction as to where I can find these studies? I want to know!!! This is the information I was looking for. Proof!!!

    If this is true then that means, for me, that the style I was doing before is probably the best.
    That is:
    1. Eat mostly fruits for carbs. Include some vegetables as well, if you like it.
    2. Rely on animal sources for protein needs.
    3. Include some starchy carbs, if you have room left. You probably won't need it and won't feel hungry for it.
    4. The rest is flexibility. In other words, the above is ideal, but we go 80/20 and make it work for long term adherence.

    My idea, and this has worked for me in the past, is if you know about your foods you know which ones you can pick in order to have better control over your weight. You can pick meats with less or more fat. And you can pick fruits with less or more calories per weight. In doing so, you can make it work for you, even while feeling completely stuffed.

    I mean, with diet I eventually came to the conclusion that weight is the main health issue with food anyways. Most people are overweight and being overweight increases your chances of sickness and early death. Get control over that and you've solved the majority of any possible diet related problems.

    With that in mind, even if you don't believe in any other issues as it pertains to health, all one has to do is opt for more healthy choices, plants and animals. It isn't that difficult. Because doing it that way is the most comfortable way to maintain control over weight due to satiety issues. You get all your micronutrients from such foods. So you really can't go wrong.

    Compare to processed food. Some of it may or may not be bad for you. But you really don't know because it's got so many chemicals in it that you don't know what it is. With plants and animals you can't go wrong. Such foods are only bad for you if you eat too much, but that's hard to do.

    Aside from that, I don't think protein is bad for you or anything like that. I guess that's what some people believe. I just want to know how much you really need. I don't want to be duped by advertising companies into thinking that I need to worry about it when I really don't. On the other hand, I love a HUGE juicy steak when I can, so if I really was eating the way I wanted, I wouldn't have to worry about it anyways. It gives you energy, it isn't going to kill you, it's real food. So you're good to go.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripped View Post
    The story I heard is that you don't have to get every different amino acid in one shot. You can get all of them on average over time. That means the lady who originally wrote on mixing foods was wrong, and the belief that you have to get your protein from animal sources is wrong. (I of course am not implying that one shouldn't eat meat. I'm just pondering on what you can and can't do.)
    You don't have to eat them all in one meal, but say you were only eating pineapple's for 6 months you would become deficient in leucine. By comparison you could eat dairy, eggs or animal of only one type (e.g. eggs) and never be deficient. So you do need to mix up the veggies you eat, though I imagine your body can cope with deficiencies for days or even weeks.

    FINALLY!!! I have someone who finally at least mentions about the studies. Can you please point me in the right direction as to where I can find these studies? I want to know!!! This is the information I was looking for. Proof!!!
    0.5g of protein supplementation per kg of body weight is beneficial for judo
    Increased adaptability of young ju... [J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

    1.2g/kg of protein supplementation showed improvements in lifting and lean muscle gain
    The effect of whey protein supp... [Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI

    40g of protein supplenentation showed greatest improvements in lean and non fat body composition
    The effects of protein and amino acid su... [J Strength Cond Res. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

    1.2g/kg of protein supplementation showed improvements in lifting and lean muscle gain
    Effect of whey and soy protein ... [Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

    I'll add to this later.
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    Soy protein :/

    M.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMonkey View Post
    You don't have to eat them all in one meal, but say you were only eating pineapple's for 6 months you would become deficient in leucine. By comparison you could eat dairy, eggs or animal of only one type (e.g. eggs) and never be deficient. So you do need to mix up the veggies you eat, though I imagine your body can cope with deficiencies for days or even weeks.
    Go to nutrition data.com, type in pineapple, go to protein and expand. Pineapple, along with pretty much every other plant food has all essential amino acids. Vegans do not have protein deficiencies of any sort unless they are under eating.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkChopper View Post
    Go to nutrition data.com, type in pineapple, go to protein and expand. Pineapple, along with pretty much every other plant food has all essential amino acids. Vegans do not have protein deficiencies of any sort unless they are under eating.
    I think that's the problem for some. Some people have trouble eating enough to begin with and put them on a diet like that and they'll have trouble maintaining weight.

    That's actually what happened to the one guy who's story I read. He was so skinny that everyone thought he was anorexic. Then for some reason he thought it would be a good idea to fast, and at about 6' tall he got down to around 88 lbs within 4 days of fasting. Well, duh!!! Is it the diets fault or is it the fault of the dieter for not looking into context.

    Fasting is good for you if you are of normal healthy weight or greater, but it's the worst thing you can do if you're underweight. Also, let's consider the fact that someone with extra body fat can get away with fasting for a month and only improve their health. Now if fruit is so low in calorie density that one can't maintain weight on that only, that's a sure sign that one could easily benefit off that as a temporary tool for fat loss. And I'm just saying, if going without food for a while, (providing you have extra body fat), isn't harmful at all, there's no reason to believe that going without certain foods for a while would be harmful either.

    It's obviously all about context. Meat and fat is probably the best thing for a skinny person who has trouble maintaining weight and doesn't like too much volume of food. Fruit (citrus fruit especially) is probably the best thing for an obese person who loves to eat but wants to lose some weight.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMonkey View Post
    You don't have to eat them all in one meal, but say you were only eating pineapple's for 6 months you would become deficient in leucine. By comparison you could eat dairy, eggs or animal of only one type (e.g. eggs) and never be deficient. So you do need to mix up the veggies you eat, though I imagine your body can cope with deficiencies for days or even weeks.



    0.5g of protein supplementation per kg of body weight is beneficial for judo
    Increased adaptability of young ju... [J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

    1.2g/kg of protein supplementation showed improvements in lifting and lean muscle gain
    The effect of whey protein supp... [Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI

    40g of protein supplenentation showed greatest improvements in lean and non fat body composition
    The effects of protein and amino acid su... [J Strength Cond Res. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

    1.2g/kg of protein supplementation showed improvements in lifting and lean muscle gain
    Effect of whey and soy protein ... [Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

    I'll add to this later.
    Ok, I don't know where to get the full studies from (more than just the abstract) so that I can see the full methods. So I can only comment on the summaries. Let me list them 1-4.

    1. In this study they don't give a placebo. This makes the study flawed since belief can change performance. Additionally, they don't give actual numbers in the abstract indicating what they actually consider "significant". "Significant" could mean anything. The total number of participants was small as well.

    2. Good, they did a placebo. However, they gave no quantities to compare. And the total number of participants was small. We know that creatine causes an increase in water weight. How do we know that the protein didn't cause in increase in "lean tissue" by an increased amount of undigested in the digestive system? Also, how reliable was their method of measuring "lean tissue"?

    3. Casein is a slow digesting protein compared to the others. How do we know the increase in FFM wasn't due to an increase of undigested food in the digestive system?

    4. What are they referring to as "lean tissue"? Again, how do we know it isn't just undigested food in the digestive system? How do we know there wasn't any sodium in their supplements, that which would cause an increase in LBM due to a retention of water weight?

    My summary?:
    I don't think you can conclude anything from those abstracts alone.
    But this makes me wake up and realize something else. What about the studies sited by Brad Pilon? When you're reading a book, it's a lot easier to just accept what the author is saying just to make it easy reading. In reality, I'd have to look at those studies as well.

    However, I can comment from my own personal experience. Glycogen, creatine, and calories are all factors that seem to make a difference in strength. But I don't think that decreases in muscle actually happen that fast. I've lost a lot of weight. I've fasted many times, even up to 4 days. I lost strength due to the weight loss. But then it comes back quick as soon as I start eating more. To me that's an indication that I've only lost strength temporarily due to a lack of energy, but I didn't lose any muscle.

    Those studies actually remind me of the studies that Arthur Jones was siting that he was using to promote his ideas of doing one one set to failure. His claim was that the difference in strength increases from 1 set or 3 sets were insignificant. However, when I actually looked at the numbers and did the math, my calculations were that such "insignificant" strength differences add up over a year. So to me, yes, 3 sets delivers more significant strength increases than 1 set.

  7. #47
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    Anyways folks, thinking about the studies like that, it really makes me want to kick myself in the ass for reading books and over-thinking this diet stuff. Why? Well, it's got to be a lot simpler than we make it out to be. If we can't gather anything meaningful out of countless studies, what does that tell you? Perhaps anecdotal evidence means a lot more than the actual studies.

    So speaking of anecdotal evidence, what can we say about protein? I know that before they had protein supplements, they had strong men. I also know for myself that I was able to get bigger and stronger without worrying too much about protein. I got about as strong as I could. I also know enough to know that lower reps yield a greater limit strength to weight ratio. I also know that if you eat too much food you get fat, and if you get too fat you also get sick. Since fasting didn't seem to cause me to lose strength, it also probably didn't cause me to lose muscle, and if that didn't cause me to lose muscle, neither can a relatively low (not extreme) protein diet won't either. And I also know that if my body is done growing, I can eat all the protein I want, but it isn't going to make me grow any more muscle.

    All I'm saying is keep it simple and look at all the reasons why people believe you need so much protein. The evidence is inconclusive. There isn't any evidence as far as I know that proves you need any more or less protein. (Except for maybe the studies that Brad sites? I'd have to look at it.) Even if Brad was correct, 60 grams of protein (on average) isn't hard to get at all. And especially if you like meat, you'll eat it, and such won't be a problem at all.

    Also, obviously we can eat meat and live off it. And eating too much of anything and everything will surely make you fat. So eat it if you want. I still will. It's all about context.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripped View Post


    [B]....FINALLY!!! I have someone who finally at least mentions about the studies...
    Thought I did that for you in my first post. You can lead a horse to water.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkChopper View Post
    Go to nutrition data.com, type in pineapple, go to protein and expand. Pineapple, along with pretty much every other plant food has all essential amino acids. Vegans do not have protein deficiencies of any sort unless they are under eating.
    Hm. How do you know when someone has a protein deficiency? Do you wait for signs of kwashiorkor?

    My own perfectly unscientific, proof-free anecdote: I was 20 years 'healthy' vegetarian, with cheese, fake meat (soya/wheat), pulses and the occasional egg. After 6 months to a year of Primal, my hair was 2-3 times as thick - I mean, each individual hair is thicker - and no longer splitting. I'm also stronger - that is, I notice my grip strength is better, but that could be mostly because the joints in my hands are no longer inflamed. It'd be absurd to say I was 'protein deficient' before, but I should imagine the better quality protein is one reason why I'm healthier now.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    You can lead a horse to water.....
    but unless you drown him, he'll continue making post after post pretending to be interested in debating a question, but really just spouting all manner of vegan propaganda.
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