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Thread: Andrew Kim Absolutely Crushes the Ridiculous Notion of Being "Fat Adapted" page 17

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timthetaco View Post
    These threads never have much constructive debate due to Choco's tone, but if I can defend a fellow taco, I'd like to echo this sentiment. All the research I've seen on the effect of low carb and ketogenic diets shows that they mimic the physiological patterns seen in stress, illness and starvation, so the logic that a low carb diet somehow confers a benefit to longevity and health doesn't follow. An adaptive response to a forced stress rather than an unintentional stress is still a response to... stress.
    Your taco comment restored my faith in humanity. You sir are a scholar and a gentlemen.

    I'm beginning to also believe your sentiment. I find that too low levels of carbs, and it slows your metabolism. I was loosing weight (and a good portion muscle) till it eventually stopped.

    What I will say is that I had a positive experience with IF and rather enjoyed fasting 12 hours daily/ an occasional 24 hour fast. Maybe a little mixing of each would be best.



    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    Post above caught my eye,
    I think it all depends how you define it and maybe the terminology needs to be rephrased.
    It is a fact that if you cannot effectively access adipose tissue fat stores in the absence of dietary intake then you do have a metabolic dysfunction, whether you want to call it fat adaptation or something else.

    Basically one should be able to go a couple of days, even a week possibly without any food and remain in a good physical and psychological state, provided water & sleep is adequate, so if you behaviour becomes erratic because your next meal is delayed, then on the savannah you become the next meal.

    The correction needs to be made as to whether a low carb diet is required for this adaptation or metabolic repair to take place.

    I've always been in the moderate carb range, IF 20/4 and sometimes go 44/4 without any loss of function whilst continuing to do hard work, so consider myself "fat adapted" in the sense that I rely fully on fat reserves and gluconeogenesis for a significant period of my fasting.
    You say that we should be able to go a week without food and be in physical condition, but I believe you should have said we COULD'VE. We live in a time where food is readily accessible, and until we read and learned about IF, or the potential benefits of fasting, eating was the norm. We've lost the conditioning to that, because we've been conditioned to eat every so often. It's not feast or famine anymore. On a side not I feel great while fasting, but it's not optimal for my goals of muscle building and maintaining a body that was a decent amount of muscle.

    I found that the low carb phase I entere did help kickstart the fat metabolism, but I felt being in it too long started to slow down my overall metabolism. Gluconeogenesis is a demanding process when you got some muscle that demands quite a bit of amino acids!

  2. #162
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    Feast & Famine is alive and kicking in even the most affluent of countries, not to mention the rest of the world, for most of us genetically speaking it was likely a regular experience 3-4 generations back so I don't think we've evolved away that far yet, and that adaptation is too important to throw away on the basis of 3-4 glutonous generations.

    As for the muscle issue, that is applying artificial conditional rules to optimal health, significant muscle mass may under specific circumstances have endowed an evolutionary advantage, but in most cases would have been a disadvantage that required extra maintenance and may well have constricted an individuals all round performance.
    When you apply conditional rulings such as this or <5% body fat for muscular exposure, marathon running, aesthetic criteria body weight and shape, longevity etc. means that optimal health is compromised and is one of the reasons these discussions never go anywhere, because there always seems to be a hidden factor people don't reveal.
    It is simply imposssible to drive your body down to <5% body fat and then expect it to perform well under IF conditions, there's no give there, the body is already at the doorway to starvation, so low carb & IF will be a dismal failure for these people, that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with low carb or IF though.

    Hence dietary and metabolic response will be similar within a similar subgroup, but not within others, I'm not quite sure exactly where I place myself but am aiming somwhere in the mid to upper ranges across the board, but likely have unidentified factors that may be skewing my own approach so still looking around.
    Last edited by Omni; 11-10-2013 at 07:43 PM.
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    I think the "fat adapted" thing should be more precisely termed "metabolic flexibility." If you eat a high carbohydrate diet and have metabolic flexibility you are healthy. If you don't, then you aren't so healthy. With metabolic flexibility you can tap into your fat stores for energy as needed no matter what your regular diet is. Without it, your body resists using your fat stores and instead demands more food all the time. I know a lot of young people don't believe this state exists, but believe me, it does and you don't have to be fat to experience it.
    Female, 5'3", 49, Starting weight: 163lbs. Current weight: 135 (more or less).
    Starting squat: 45lbs. Current squat: 170 x 3. Current Deadlift: 220 x 3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    Feast & Famine is alive and kicking in even the most affluent of countries, not to mention the rest of the world, for most of us genetically speaking it was likely a regular experience 3-4 generations back so I don't think we've evolved away that far yet, and that adaptation is too important to throw away on the basis of 3-4 glutonous generations.

    As for the muscle issue, that is applying artificial conditional rules to optimal health, significant muscle mass may under specific circumstances have endowed an evolutionary advantage, but in most cases would have been a disadvantage that required extra maintenance and may well have constricted an individuals all round performance.
    When you apply conditional rulings such as this or <5% body fat for muscular exposure, marathon running, aesthetic criteria body weight and shape, longevity etc. means that optimal health is compromised and is one of the reasons these discussions never go anywhere, because there always seems to be a hidden factor people don't reveal.
    It is simply imposssible to drive your body down to <5% body fat and then expect it to perform well under IF conditions, there's no give there, the body is already at the doorway to starvation, so low carb & IF will be a dismal failure for these people, that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with low carb or IF though.

    Hence dietary and metabolic response will be similar within a similar subgroup, but not within others, I'm not quite sure exactly where I place myself but am aiming somwhere in the mid to upper ranges across the board, but likely have unidentified factors that may be skewing my own approach so still looking around.
    I never said that feast and famine is gone, or that it's fasting effects are of ill health, just that in my goal to get stronger, and pack on more muscle mass, you want to tip the scale in the anabolic side, and not catabolic. The autophagic side of the fasting equation insures recovery even without nutrient intake which is an amazing feat our bodies have developed.

    I also don't believe that in the current state we are in, more muscle mass is disadvantageous. I believe it's more advantageous to be stronger, faster, maybe a little bigger (no need to overdo it). I mean think of it, if we get stronger and optimize growth gene patterns in our genes, then we will grow stronger and stronger in each subsequent generation.

    All this to say that our feast/famine adaptation has insured the survival of countless humans, but why not focus on being as physically strong and expressing great useful genes that a few generations ago were not possible, due to the limitation of food, we don't possess?

    But like you said it depends on your goals! All those instance you mentioned are perfect examples. I really like that you mentioned dietary and metabolic conditions vary from person to person. As that's 100% the case, no two people are exactly alike(perhaps similar). Not even twins!! Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    I think the "fat adapted" thing should be more precisely termed "metabolic flexibility." If you eat a high carbohydrate diet and have metabolic flexibility you are healthy. If you don't, then you aren't so healthy. With metabolic flexibility you can tap into your fat stores for energy as needed no matter what your regular diet is. Without it, your body resists using your fat stores and instead demands more food all the time. I know a lot of young people don't believe this state exists, but believe me, it does and you don't have to be fat to experience it.
    +1

    I couldn't go more than 5 hours without starvation kicking in. The max i've gone after licking up the fat metabolism was 32 hours. But then I HAD to eat lol. Could not sleep that second night on no food lol

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime-Animal View Post
    I also don't believe that in the current state we are in, more muscle mass is disadvantageous. I believe it's more advantageous to be stronger, faster, maybe a little bigger (no need to overdo it). I mean think of it, if we get stronger and optimize growth gene patterns in our genes, then we will grow stronger and stronger in each subsequent generation.

    All this to say that our feast/famine adaptation has insured the survival of countless humans, but why not focus on being as physically strong and expressing great useful genes that a few generations ago were not possible, due to the limitation of food, we don't possess?
    Don't take this personally, just for the sake of discussion,

    While your clan focuses on developing a superhuman race, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, mine is developing an adept all rounder in preparation for the apocolypse, the nerds are in the basement building a supercomputer which will likely cause the apocolypse, all of us well educated and too busy to breed much, meanwhile the urban uneducated poor are washing down Soy, Wheat & PUFA's with HFCS and breeding like there's no tomorrow, mixing their genetics almost uncontrollably with multiple partners, spitting out little rug rats which because of the environmental xenoestrogens are ready to breed at a little over 10 years of age, who cares if they die at 45, plenty more in the pipeline, eventually some will become more resistant to the crap we've put into the environment due to acute & chronic exposure, survival of the fittest at it's harshest.
    So whose gene pool do you think will be expressed most strongly in 1000 years time?
    As the lord said:
    "The meek shall inherit the Earth"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    Don't take this personally, just for the sake of discussion,

    While your clan focuses on developing a superhuman race, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, mine is developing an adept all rounder in preparation for the apocolypse.

    As the lord said:
    "The meek shall inherit the Earth"
    I can argue the same thing lol. Like I said the actual physical advantages are the first point. After that, when food gets scarce, my feast/famine will kick in, and I will have more amino acids as a reservoir to tap into for whatever purpose my body desires to use it for.

    Very nice quotation. But I rather believe that there will be no apocalypse. I'd like to imagine that the "meek" would be a metaphor for all of us, in our current state. Powerless and peaceful people being led by evil, corrupt, war mongering politcitians. And that one day we will inherit our beautiful planet back, and rebuild it as peaceful as Eden once was.

    But this isn't an apocalypse thread lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime-Animal View Post

    But this isn't an apocalypse thread lol.
    Oh sure it is, if the arguing ever stops surely the world will end...
    Breathe. Move forward.

    I just eat what I want...

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