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  1. #291
    Omni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turquoisepassion View Post
    Interesting. I haven't thought of epigenetics in the context of Lamarck. I always just lol'ed at his stretching giraffe neck example.

    However, Lamarck said that this genetic response to environment is why species become different (long giraffe necks) over time. That isn't what epigenetics is. A gene can be switched on and off but methylation can only happen to a preexisting gene. Genome itself and the population *as a whole* is not permanently altered by epigenetics. If I smoke and activate more of my deleterious genes it only affects my offspring (for up to 50-90 generations... Although this figure is made off of observing bacteria and not humans) and not of the general human population.


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    Hasn't been tested fully, i.e. at this point we can not say yay or nay.

    If the environment remains smoke free then yes the epigenetics effect fades, but if the environment continues in the same direction further switching takes place, is this enough to trigger an engineered mutation, don't know, hasn't been disproven as far as I'm aware.

    One thing is clear is that our genome isn't adequate to explain genetic diversity within our species, there sure was a lot of confused genetecists(human genome project) when the final count came out far below predictions, from memory it was under 30,000 genes vs predictions in excess of 100,000, and as you know maths doesn't lie, so there are other factors, that we don't understand, in this game. You'll probably like this, that glycoproteins play a significant role in gene switching, kind of like using three primary colours to produce an entire spectrum, so what was once considered gap filler between cells, may be far more important, not to mention it's dance with the immune system.
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  2. #292
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    Eating Paleo, But Don't Believe in Evolution?

    Epigenetics isn't referring to actual mutations though. It is just switching on and off of genes by methylation, making the DNA more inaccessible to the reach of DNA helicase.

    Hence citing epigenetics alone does not vindicate Lamarck.


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    Last edited by turquoisepassion; 11-05-2013 at 01:50 AM.
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  3. #293
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    Eating Paleo, But Don't Believe in Evolution?

    Possible explanations for more genes than accounted for: Glycoproteins (as you said), alternative splicing, and exons that aren't fully exons but rather help regulation and maybe even are part of the code in some fashion. Junk DNA isn't really junk... Just stuff we haven't figured out the usage for.

    Still doesn't vindicate Lamarck because he says we actively change genes in a *population (not just individual) by our actions/environments. All of the factors above are based on genetic material we already have, not creating new information/genetic traits out of thin air.

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    Last edited by turquoisepassion; 11-05-2013 at 01:53 AM.
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    A funny thought; religion doesn't believe in evolution, yet evolution has occurred in religion.

    We see the whole religion thing spring up 2000 years ago all over the planet (Christianity, Buddhism, etc). Next speciation occurs; they branch into many different forms, each having characteristics of the ancestor, but also new characteristics. We also see adaptation; the Pope saying "evolution is true" so as not to become extinct/crazy in the face of new science.

    Change thru time. It happens!

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    I don't believe in evolution as described by atheists. But I also don't believe in the 6 24hr periods of fundamentalists. Wherever I see "we evolved this way" I substitute "we were designed this way". God said let there be light and there was the big bang. I know many might think I'm a crazy and they chide about the "invisible man in the sky". But thats an overs simplification to try to understand something that is beyond comprehension. Like neil bohrs model of the atom. Its wrong, but it helps to explain matter.

    I think its easier to believe that an intelligent force is behind the creation of everything than everything came from nothing by complete accident. Followed by who knows how many accidents to go from germ to plant to fish to amphibian etc.

    So how did God create it? Who knows? Who cares? But it would be hard to argue that the world wouldnt be a better place if everyone actually followed the 10 commandments rather than just looking out for number 1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    I personally leave people to their faith, except when they argue their superiority over others primarily as a tool to build up their armies of believers and turn a spiritual belief stream into a political tool for personal gain, and sadly that's where most seem to go over time.
    yeah, you know, because all the wars started and people killed by those crazy evolutionists...
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    Quote Originally Posted by not on the rug View Post
    yeah, you know, because all the wars started and people killed by those crazy evolutionists...
    survival of the fittest man. Two species enter; one species leaves!
    somehow I manage to leave my intelligence and decorum at the door wherever I go. I doubt your journal will be an exception to that - not on the rug

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  8. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by not on the rug View Post
    yeah, you know, because all the wars started and people killed by those crazy evolutionists...
    What would an evolutionist Crusade even look like? We'd chain people up and torture them swear that they understand Haldane and Dobzhansky?
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    Quote Originally Posted by canio6 View Post
    survival of the fittest man. Two species enter; one species leaves!
    Yeah, hitler stalin and mao [sic] were all good alter boys. C'mon... Thou shalt not kill and thou shalt not covet thy neighbors stuff. Dont trash religion because of those that fail to follow their own teachings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tony_in_nj View Post
    Yeah, hitler stalin and mao [sic] were all good alter boys. C'mon... Thou shalt not kill and thou shalt not covet thy neighbors stuff. Dont trash religion because of those that fail to follow their own teachings.
    Ah, sorry, you appear to have taken my lame attempt at humor to be trashing religion. That is not my aim at all.
    somehow I manage to leave my intelligence and decorum at the door wherever I go. I doubt your journal will be an exception to that - not on the rug

    What the F&#* is a decorum? - Mr. Anthony

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