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Thread: Eating Paleo, But Don't Believe in Evolution? page 22

  1. #211
    magicmerl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turquoisepassion View Post
    Donkeys and horses are already different species, not in a few hundred years. Horses have 64 chromosomes and donkeys have 62. Mules have 63, an odd number, therefore it is infertile. Sexual reproduction requires an even number of chromosomes to occur.
    Well yes, but they can still sexually interbreed.

    Kinda.

    In a similar way to insects along a mountain range can interbreed with insects in the next valley, who can interbreed with the insects in the next vcalley etc, until you go all the way around the range and find two adjacent species who cannot interbreed with each other (despite all of the 'intermediate' forms who can)
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  2. #212
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    Eating Paleo, But Don't Believe in Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by magicmerl View Post
    Well yes, but they can still sexually interbreed.

    Kinda.

    In a similar way to insects along a mountain range can interbreed with insects in the next valley, who can interbreed with the insects in the next vcalley etc, until you go all the way around the range and find two adjacent species who cannot interbreed with each other (despite all of the 'intermediate' forms who can)
    Being able to have sex and having a kid isn't the same thing as being the same species.

    You defined speciation as the point at which 2 organisms can longer have a healthy offspring. I was pointing out your cutoff point is a bit off, that while horse and donkey can produce a mule they are (already) 2 different species. In other words, speciation comes at an earlier point than at the scenario you described.

    Don't change the issue... The topic was: how to define speciation. Not which species can have sex with which species.


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    Last edited by turquoisepassion; 11-03-2013 at 03:13 PM.
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  3. #213
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    Fair enough. What's your superior definiton?
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

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    (The real answer if based in nature instead of through human lenses is complex, because speciation is a human-defined term in an attempt to oversimplify nature. On a spectrum from 100% alike to "different" there is a hypothetical point at which 2 species exist. Speciation is just a convenient cut off point for human zoologists to make neat little black and white, categorical boxes like we humans love to do)

    Most scientists (or rather, zoologists) define speciation as the point at which 2 sets of *populations can no longer interbreed and produce *fertile offsprings.

    Mule isn't fertile (and most of its traits come from mother's womb's chemical environment... Hence why male horse-female donkey vs female horse- male donkey makes a different animal). Hence why with horses and donkeys, speciation has already occurred according to the definition zoologists use.




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    For sure. I completely agree with that. My point (which I clearly made poorly) was that although they are separate species they aren't *that* far removed because they can still interbreed, if not producing fertile offspring.
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

    Griff's cholesterol primer
    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
    Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
    TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
    bloodorchid is always right

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by magicmerl View Post
    In a similar way to insects along a mountain range can interbreed with insects in the next valley, who can interbreed with the insects in the next vcalley etc, until you go all the way around the range and find two adjacent species who cannot interbreed with each other (despite all of the 'intermediate' forms who can)
    This is actually a good example to refute many of Derp's earlier points. It's called a "ring species" and I brought it up several times. Derp responded with (basically) "pfft, genetic drift, you're a moron."

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    Yeah I'm also of the opinion that all is not what it seems when it comes to evolution...

    My take is that genomes are "alive". A genome isn't just sitting around waiting for a genetic mistake, it is actively seeking perfection (sometimes at the expense of the organism housing the genome).

    Genomes housed in bodies drive their hosts to do many things. Particularly mating. Our genes actively seek out the best genetic match it can, to give it the best chance of existing in the future. This doesn't have to be tied solely to genetics... If an individual gorilla happens upon a way of getting a particular incredible food source that other gorillas don't currently get, then naturally all the opposite sex gorilla will want to mate with that individual, even if that individual doesn't have particularly great genes. The development of species will happen much faster if genomes actively seek perfection, like the example gorillas, instead of waiting for mutations.

    Organisms (us included) are temporary hosts. Genetics/genomes are what lives and dies. Our lives are far less important (according to our genes) than the betterment of our species.


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    Somehow, I think Derp is of the belief that Darwinian or neo-Darwinian natural selection mandates that a member of one species produces an offspring that's not a member of its own species. Humans growing wings is obviously a ridiculous example to ask. I think he fails to understand, perhaps, that a mutation occurs, in rare instances, that confers a survival advantage (a survival advantage to the genes, via the individual, whether this means it can resist being killed better, hunt prey better, attract mates better, whatever). But it's only with dozens or hundreds or more generations that a distinct gene pool becomes apparent. This is what's so beautifully illustrated by ring species. It's sort of like a cross-section of speciation that we can see concurrently. A gives rise to B, but B and A are hard to distinguish and can easily interbreed. B gives rise to C, C to D, D to E, which happens to be in a territory adjacent to A's. But while the neighbors can all mate and the "line" between species is blurred at every point around the ring, A and E are clearly distinct, and can't and don't mate at all. Or maybe he's just making up a lot of words to describe things he doesn't understand in a way that he thinks can confuse us. I'm not claiming to be a biologist. Laz and tp and a few of the other posters here seem more equipped to address this than I am, but despite all the words he's used, he's failed to make his objection clear. Like he thinks species and genes are some type of truly distinct and impenetrable units, which is, to my dilettante's understanding, not the case at all. Distinct species are only distinct with the conceit of hindsight.

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    Also, since I know Derpy loves Richard Dawkins:

    Climbing Mount Improbable: A Lecture by Richard Dawkins

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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    Yeah I'm also of the opinion that all is not what it seems when it comes to evolution...

    My take is that genomes are "alive". A genome isn't just sitting around waiting for a genetic mistake, it is actively seeking perfection (sometimes at the expense of the organism housing the genome).

    Genomes housed in bodies drive their hosts to do many things. Particularly mating. Our genes actively seek out the best genetic match it can, to give it the best chance of existing in the future. This doesn't have to be tied solely to genetics... If an individual gorilla happens upon a way of getting a particular incredible food source that other gorillas don't currently get, then naturally all the opposite sex gorilla will want to mate with that individual, even if that individual doesn't have particularly great genes. The development of species will happen much faster if genomes actively seek perfection, like the example gorillas, instead of waiting for mutations.

    Organisms (us included) are temporary hosts. Genetics/genomes are what lives and dies. Our lives are far less important (according to our genes) than the betterment of our species.


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    Hi, are you the author of "The Selfish Gene"?

    ;P

    I think the book/this selfish gene theory is weird. If one actually took the extremely reductionist scientific approach, we are just bags of hormones, ribonucleic acids and enzymes. Fine. I get it. We are not so special. We are just another permutation of atoms floating in the universe. Fine.

    What I don't get is the claim that genes are "alive." They are just as governed by the same "laws" of chemistry and physics as we are! They can replicate under the correct annealing temperature and in presence of dNTP mix because of hydrogen bonds. They aren't alive. I can manipulate DNA in the lab to make mutations, to copy and paste, etc. Maybe it is because I worked with manipulation of genes in the lab but I don't see genes as "one over" human beings.

    {Note I wrote "laws" because I am skeptical of all human knowledge. Human logic is subject to human understanding/perception limitations... So while I absolutely adore science (grew up immersed in it; both parents were botanists), I learn it with a grain of salt. Science isn't the end all for the universe. It is just the end all for the *human perception* of the universe.

    Hence why I don't think religion is "worse." It is just using human's spirituality and emotion to experience the universe rather than with human logic. Who is to say logic is better than emotion? They are both human in origin. Both subject to the same limitations and flaws. }



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