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  1. #1
    Ripped's Avatar
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    Cool Something doesn't seem right.

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    Ok folks,
    I want to make it clear from the beginning. I don't have a biased view. I'm an omnivore, enjoy it, always have. I believe in primal. I believe that we should ideally be eating natural foods, not processed foods. But I have some questions. Let's look at some facts, along with a few questions I have:

    1. All other primates today, other than humans, are plant eaters. Some only eat meat occasionally as a delicacy.

    2. Other primates are WAY stronger than us. I'm not trying to correlate and say that the plants make them stronger. But a low protein compared to us clearly isn't causing their muscles to melt away.

    3. Gorillas get fat and sick from eating meat and die early. (They found that out the hard way in zoos.)

    4. Our bodies don't have any traits of a carnivore.

    5. Our digestive tracks represent that of a herbivore, not a carnivore.

    6.We can survive off from meat. No problem. I'm sure other primates could too.

    7. Meat was essential for survival in places and during times when plants weren't available.

    8. Our brains couldn't have gotten bigger from eating more fat. Evolution doesn't work that way. Natural selection simply favors the traits that are required for survival. Therefore in the evolutionary process with the development of humans, natural selection was simply weeding out all the people that were too stupid to figure out how to survive, while favoring people who had the brains to figure it out. Therefore the evolution of the brain increasing in size.

    The smart ones went on to figure out how to survive regardless of the situation. They designed weapons and tools for hunting so that they could eat meat instead of only plants. This gave them more choices. They learned to make clothing so that they could survive in cold weathers. They learned how to cook the food. They learned how to cook grains and different tubers to make them edible. And they learned how to farm and herd. Eventually they learned to process the foods. The rest is history.

    9. Because we found a way to survive off from such foods listed above, this doesn't mean in any way shape or form that our bodies evolved to HAVE to have such foods for optimal health. It just means that we CAN survive off it. And it also means that we would HAVE to survive off it if there was nothing else available.

    Such isn't the case today. We now live in a world of abundance. We can have what ever we want.

    10. The story is that if we fast, the body ends up eating a little bit of muscle after glycogen runs out. Ok? So what happens if we don't have much protein, but maintain enough glycogen to run off? What is considered a lot? Why? Where are the numbers coming from? Says who? Have they identified a cause affect relationship?

    Apparently, as discussed in "How Much Protein?" by Brad Pilon, there were some studies that showed that any less than 60 grams of protein per day slows down the rate of muscle growth. (But any more than 120 grams per day doesn't help at all, even if you're on steroids.) That's about all I know. Other than muscle "building" success, I don't know what happens if you eat less. I don't think it means that you can't build muscle, it just slows down the growth process. And since you can only gain so much muscle in a life time anyways, I'm not sure it would have a negative affect in the long run if your protein intake was less than that.

    My question about this one is that everyone "believes" you must eat "more" protein. Well, like I said, how much is more? Some bodybuilders say you need to eat 300 grams per day. Well, they've been putting this stuff in magazines for decades in order to sell the stuff. That's why we laugh when we here people saying about small amounts of protein. Because we "believe" what's been getting shoved down our throats for decades.

    So I want to know. Is there an actual cause affect relationship where something bad happens if you have less protein than what you can get from plants such as fruit? My calculations is you can more or less than 50 grams per day, depending on how much you eat and of what kind.

    Do you have any proof? Probably not. But if so, please present it.

    11. Has anyone ever identified a cause affect relationship where something bad happens if you don't eat meat?

    Do you have any proof? Probably not. But if so, please present it.

    12. As discussed in PB, our ancestors got A LOT more physical activity in than we do today. They even got A LOT more activity in than what is suggested in PB. It is also known that more physical activity requires more energy and also helps resolve issues with insulin and lowers the risk of different diseases such as diabetes. If we got as much physical activity as Grok did, do you really think eating plants such as fruit as a staple would cause any issues with insulin and all? Probably not!!! Because that glycogen would be emptied right out, every day, and we'd be ready to fill up again by morning. We'd be ripped!!!

    13. We go for what is easier. Korg goes for fast food because he's too lazy to cook. It would have been WAY easier for Grok to pick fruit and eat it than to hunt, kill, clean, and cook the meat. That is of course IF it was available. Clearly he went after the meat when fruit wasn't there. And maybe meat would have been a better choice to feed a family or tribe especially if fruit was scarce.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ok folks, I want to make it clear again. I have no bias or wacky agenda here. I'm not a hippie, vegan, or pothead. I'm omnivorous. But I'm just using my brain and asking legitimate questions.

    I'm not trying to identify what we should or shouldn't eat like dietary religion. Obviously we are omnivorous and can survive off from just about anything. But clearly it doesn't necessarily mean that it's healthy for us. We can eat grains, and have to if it means to avoid dying of starvation, but some people are saying it's bad for us. We can eat meat, and have to if it means to avoid dying of starvation, but some people say that is bad for us.

    Ok? But for me, I'm just looking at the evidence. And it appears to me that fruits and vegetables were probably the main staple food of our ancestors before people started getting a piece of meat here and there. It seems that's what our digestive tracks are most suitable for as well. And I'm wondering what would happen if you only ate that.

    I have a feeling that nothing bad would happen and only good could happen from such.

    Any thoughts? And can I ask a favor? I don't mind opinions and actually want discussion. But I'm simply asking for anyone who wants to dispute this to please come up with actual scientific facts to support your argument. Why? It's not because I'm a jerk and I HAVE to be right. NO!!! I simply want to see the facts just as I have laid out. I want to see the real science. I want the proof. Honesty anyone? That's the ONLY way we can find out what's really going on is if we are honest with ourselves and others. And like I said, I have no agenda here. I'm just asking questions. Something doesn't seem right about what we've been being told for decades.

    Personally I want to try some personal experimentation. I'm not interested in giving up my meat and eggs. But I want to experiment with eating fruit as a staple. If I try anything extreme like that, it'd be something for a different thread.

    Peace folks!
    Last edited by Ripped; 10-29-2013 at 01:13 AM. Reason: Added #13

  2. #2
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    Our brains increasing in size is not entirely selective, but believed to be caused by a mutation. Mutation helped human brain evolve | EvoAnth


    Ape colons are gigantic and useful for fermenting veggies. Ours aren't. Overview of Digestive System Morphology in Primates and Humans
    Last edited by Knifegill; 10-29-2013 at 01:03 AM.


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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripped View Post
    I'm not a hippie, vegan, or pothead. I'm omnivorous.
    This part made me laugh.
    Last edited by Paleo0731; 10-29-2013 at 04:37 AM.

  4. #4
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    I can see where your going with this thread, and i have similar questions and concerns. Particularly the protein aspect, meat is just too available. I think varying protein intake is your best bet, hence a varied diet is required.

    I no longer feel comfourtable consuming more than say 80g of protein a day. I think i average between 60-80g a day. Perhaps even less sometimes? I should actually look into that because i definitley dont want too be too low, but i feel there would be a balance for everyone where any gram over a certain amounti is waste/toxic. Pretty much what The Perfect Health diet mentioned regarding overdoing something even thats good for you, becoming toxic to the body.

  5. #5
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    Oh, hold it.
    Colonic fermentation: a neglected topic in human physiology education

    This implies our hindguts DO ferment. Hence the farty-farts?


    Turquoisepassion:
    Knifegill is christened to be high carb now!
    notontherug:
    the buttstuff...never interested.
    Tremendous worms of a swarthy nature pursue me across the sandy blank sky. I stop to think. What the devil AM I up to?!

    My pony picture thread http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread82786.html

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    CRIKEY thats a lot of text! I will briefly address some points.

    • The idea that we have no carnivorve characteristics which is false. Check out the caecum brah. Also incisors.
    • Protein recommendations are over 60g a day for basic health. Body builders advocate for maximal muscle growth. 2g/kg of body weight is typically maximal.
    • Fruit may be easier to gather, but its also significantly less calorie dense than animal. When hunter gathers kill animals they typically value the fat and organs, then the muscle meat. You may only kill one monkey per day, but that one monkey can be enough to feed several people and meet most nutritional needs. The gathering of fruit is significantly less nutrient efficient.
    Last edited by AMonkey; 10-29-2013 at 02:10 AM.
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    I found this article on primate strength, and apparently it is due to physiology and neuromuscular control, and diet has little to do with the differences in primate strength.
    The Secret To Chimp Strength

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    Most mammals use fat as their primary substrate including herbivores. We have clearly evolved away from a plant eating ancestor as is demonstrated by our vestigial appendix.
    Point 3. The gorillas got fat from eating a diet high in simple carbohydrates not from meat, that is vegetarian propaganda.What Can the Diet of Gorillas Tell Us About a Healthy Diet for Humans? - Weston A Price Foundation
    Point 4. Our brains are our predatory tool. There aren't a whole load of intelligent herbivores out there unless they live in complex social groups like some monkeys.
    5. eat some sweetcorn then wait 8 hours and tell me your digestive system is geared up for eating plants
    6. Agree
    7. Meat and honey are our preferred foods, I suggest we ate plants when desperate although starchy tubers would be a welcome accompaniment to a meal.
    8. Those who eat meat have more time to design weapons and tools. Compare lions to gorillas.
    9. Just like every other animal evolved to survive off of what it eats. Would spiders be better off eating lentils...should someone tell them?
    10. Not all protein is the same. Proteins are assembled from 20 different amino acids in various proportions. Animal protein tends to have similar proportions to those found in our bodies hence whey and egg are the best and soy is way down the list as it has proteins that are inaccesible to our digestive system. read what Mr Sisson says here:Whey, Casein, Egg White, Pea, Rice and Hemp Protein Powder Analysis | Mark's Daily Apple
    When you fast your body doesn't feed off of muscle but breaks up damaged and non-functional proteins. It also breaks down poorly performing cells and organelles thus helping to ward off cancer. Role of autophagy in cancer prevention. [Cancer Prev Res (Phila). 2011] - PubMed - NCBI
    11. Don't eat meat for a year and see how you feel/ look. Be your own N=1 experiment
    12. If we ate a lot of fruit we would get ill and fat. Spend a few days eating fruit and you'll soon get sick of it. Even where fruit is freely available humans go to great lengths to catch animals and process starchy foods. Again do an N=1.
    13. When people get to choose what to eat they invariably go for meat. Hence the increasing demand for beef worldwide. Meat isn't a substitute for fruit.
    Please do the fruit experiment but get some bloods done before and after. Also measure your body fat to establish lean mass and do some strength tests e.g pull ups before and after the diet.
    Man seeks to change the foods available in nature to suit his tastes, thereby putting an end to the very essence of life contained in them.
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  9. #9
    Ripped's Avatar
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    Thank you very much for your replies so far. I think I'd go nuts if I replied to them all, wether I agreed or disagreed, not enough time. However, you all have given a contribution to something we can learn from. And I appreciate it. I'm reading up on some of the links you folks posted.

    Let's keep the honesty coming? Let's keep it factual and scientific. Let's keep it honest to the best that we can. I'm learning.

  10. #10
    Ripped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zizou View Post
    I can see where your going with this thread, and i have similar questions and concerns. Particularly the protein aspect, meat is just too available. I think varying protein intake is your best bet, hence a varied diet is required.

    I no longer feel comfourtable consuming more than say 80g of protein a day. I think i average between 60-80g a day. Perhaps even less sometimes? I should actually look into that because i definitley dont want too be too low, but i feel there would be a balance for everyone where any gram over a certain amounti is waste/toxic. Pretty much what The Perfect Health diet mentioned regarding overdoing something even thats good for you, becoming toxic to the body.
    Don't mark my word on this because I haven't looked too much into it yet. But there's a book I browsed over the chapters that's supposed to identify some possible issues with consumption of too much protein as it relates to cancer. I won't even mention the name of the book yet, because I still have to take the time to read it. I plan on it, but I'm not there yet.

    If what MaceyUK is saying is true about what proteins get broken down while fasting, this could actually be a supporting factor for eating less protein. Or it could mean just to simply eat protein less frequently or periodically?

    It could also be possible that we just need to mix it up. This idea goes against traditional wisdom that says you need to eat a "balanced diet". Well, when they say that in modern times that usually means you need to have a certain amount of each item from the food pyramid every day, and you have to have a certain amount of each macro and micro and fiber every day. But what I am guessing is that perhaps you could change it up. For example, some days you could eat a bunch of fruit, other days you could eat a bunch of meat.

    It seems reasonable that things actually might have been that way during primal days, at least during certain situations. If you got a mammoth, you'd probably eat as much as you could. But how long did it take you to hunt that thing down? Maybe days? If you were looking for food, couldn't find any for days, and then found a fruit tree, you'd eat as much as you could.

    Of course if you were in an area that had plenty of food such as fruit or fish, you'd have a routine down. That's just what humans did, if they could, I am sure. And that's what we do today. While on that topic, as I understand it, modern humans were originally nomadic and didn't start to build permanent houses until they had a real steady source of food, such as when they started learning how to cook grains.

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