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  1. #31
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    Your original post makes a lot of assumptions that you have probably heard or absorbed over the years from various CW and vegetarian sources that simply are not as true as you think they are.

    Take our digestive systems. They have much more in common with dogs than with any herbivorous creature. Here is a table of the comparision of human, dog and sheep digestive systems, but I originally read the comparison in a book.
    Comparison of Man's Digestive Tract

    An ape like a gorilla would be along the same spectrum, closer to sheep than we are, closer to dog and human than sheep.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    I'm very firmly of the opinion that the human brain evolved the way it did because propensities for language and conditional reasoning allowed us to be successful group hunters. And being successful hunters gave us the raw materials necessary to grow larger brains. Plants are fine with me, but eating brains and marrow gave us our start to becoming human, and hunting skills and tools got us as far as we've come. Now we're trying to go backwards, and with pretty good success.
    You mean like on the movie "Idiocracy"?

  3. #33
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    I think you may be slightly misinformed as to what fruits were available to HG, especially in northern climates. The truth is very little was available and it was very different from the fruit we have today. And as far as "meat" goes, they were not just eating mammoths and other large animals, think the equivalent of prairie dogs, lizards, fish and insects and grubs too. These forms of "meat" were abundant.

    Recently a 72 yr old man was lost in the wilderness near where I live. He'd been out hunting with a friend, fell down a ravine and was knocked unconscious. He survived for 14 days eating, lizards, squirrels, snake, a few berries and algae which he cooked. He would have hunted deer but he was injured and weak. The thing is there were no fruits he could live off. Blackberries are not native to this area and in fact the only native fruits are manzanita and huckleberry. Trust me you would expend more energy gathering those berries than you would gain from eating them, you would be much better off spending your energy catching a lizard.
    Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

  4. #34
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    1: Wrong. Think of mandrills and baboons, for example.

    2: Yet no vegan has ever equalled their strength through only eating plants. Buffalo, tigers and ants are are stronger than us too, relative to their weight and, in the first two cases, as an absolute. It has less to do with diet and more to do with lifestyle. The strongest men who ever lived ate everything they could, including large amounts of meat. Strength athletics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Old Time Strongman Diet -Legendary Strength Eugen Sandow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    3: And dogs need more plant matter than wolves. We are different species. Gorillas get 60% of their kcals from SCFAs from gut bacteria. Humans cannot do this. Our intestines are too small and their population is unsuited to a heavily foliage-based diet. It is not a good comparison by any stretch of the imagination. SCFA | LCHF.com

    4: Wrong again. Our large intestine is too small for most to live as a healthy herbivore in the wild, we have enzymes that digest animal protein and fats and stomach acid that breaks down cartilage (something only meat-eaters can do). As omnivores, we are adapted to many food sources. On issues with comparative anatomy: Comparative Anatomy Updated. Humans--Omnivores or Vegetarians?

    5: Slavic peoples, Mongolians, Turks and Manchurians among many others have serrated molars (the idea humans have flat molars by design is actually based on Nordic and Han type populations). Most humans have intestines that are too short to live entirely off plant matter and many get ill from plants. If you scratch-train your nails (like cats do) they become hard and sharp. Your stomach can digest cartilage. Meat is broken down, digested, absorbed and gone long before plant matter has released a quarter of the nutrients we can absorb. Again, as omnivores, our digestive tract is at a midpoint. We are not ruminants, yet we eat grass. We are not burrowing animals, yet we eat roots and insects. We are not tree animals, yet we eat fruit. We are not herbivores or carnivores, yet we eat plants and we eat animals.

    6: Yup. We can survive off vegetables, too. All humans have a different 'thriving point', usually balanced in-between. Another thing to remember is that not all humans are going to live the same amount of time if they live optimally for them. Someone who is intolerant to meat protein may live longer if they avoid it, but will live a shorter life than someone who, all else being equal, is able to eat the meat. What works for one, doesn't work for all and someone heavily unadapted should probably be considered to be in a state of illness.

    7: Again, yes. An omnivore isn't, like many believe, an "eats everything". It is a "can adapt to eat various food types". Being omnivores, we can adapt to pretty much everything. For more information, read some books on food intolerances. They tend to explain how omnivores work pretty well.

    8: Yet, to eat a high fat diet, we needed bigger brains and having bigger brains allowed us to obtain more fat. Correlation needn't be causation to be relevant. Eating more animals and being brighter went hand-in hand. The assumption is that, as our brains and hands were adapting to our new lifestyle, simpler things such as intestinal length and stomach ph would also be changing. It shows that eating meat wasn't a passive adaptation: it was integrated into out evolutionary path.

    9: True. You could live off chicken nuggets (Stacey Irvine Chicken Nugget Diet: Teen Eats Nuggets For 15 Years; Rushed To Hospital) with minimal harm. You can eat and do whatever you want. Eat large amounts of foods that used to produce little fruit, eat seasonal food all year round, eat chemical slurry, ignore whatever other food sources you like and supplement. You'll survive.

    10: Macro-nutrient needs are all personal. Any less than 90g/day and my muscle wastes. As a working, lifting human, I don't really want that. But some people are fine on 40-50g/day.

    11: I don't get enough protein and develop acne, lethargy, low testosterone, painful periods and bloating. Again, all personal.

    12: True. Insulin spikes are largely irrelevant when mostly active and when the spikes are small (and higher spikes are infrequent). I eat 100-300g of carbs a day, plenty of fruit and tubers in all forms. Doesn't do any harm. Of course, some people are less glucose adapted, due to developing adaptations in line with times of glucose shortage. Again, it's all individual.

    13: You underestimate how easy hunting is for the kcals and nutrients it provides. One hunt feeds your tribe for a week. It also goes to show how vital meat is, as even in tropical situations, tribespeople take time away from fruit harvesting to fish and hunt. They could eat 5000kcal/day from fruit, insects, nuts, leaves and tubers alone. But, clearly, any tribe who actually did that is long gone. The only extant ones (and ones in living memory) are omnivores. And there's probably a reason for that.

    Sources: the mentioned above and doing actual medical research.
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  5. #35
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    BrainInABody,
    Thank you for the detailed response.

    I think the reason why I was originally wondering about all this stuff is because of when I looked up the details of all other primates diets. And while on that note, I am aware that some may differ. Because for example, gorillas rely mostly on foliage while chimps rely mostly on fruit.

    Perhaps that's what got me interested in trying to learn a little something, if there actually is anything good they have to offer, from the raw vegans. Or perhaps fruitarians? I just got curious as to what would happen if you relied mainly on fruit.

    Anyways, I'll never give up my meat and eggs. I actually like fish and eggs the best. But I'd like to try fruit only sometime just to see what happens.

    Here's actually how I look at it. If you've got extra fat on you, as far as I know you can go quite some time on only water without a problem. So the way I see it is, if you can go on nothing for short period of time without any issues, there's no reason why going on only fruit for a while would cause any issues, short term that is.

    And if raw vegans and frutarians are skinny, then that's a clear indicator to me that eating as such could have it's place. What ever the negative health affects are, if at all, I think you'd be much healthier on such a diet as opposed to being obese. In fact, I do personally know at least one girl who switched to vegetarian and went from being obese to thin and hot.

    So, I'm just throwing it out there. It could have it's place. If I was obese and ready to die and someone told me (and IF it was true) I could lose A LOT of weight fast by eating all the apples, oranges, etc., I wanted, without ever having to feel hungry, I'd be a retard not to do it. And even now, if I knew that'd work if I did it once in a while short term just to drop a few extra lbs, I'd try it. Why not? I've fasted. So why not try something different?

    Or I could just eat fruit and meat. There problem solved.

    Oh well, I'm just speculating. I'm not fat so it doesn't matter.

  6. #36
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    Kochin,
    Thank you very much for the long response. Very informative. Very simple.

    I liked your response to #9 the most. And I think that was just what I was looking for.

    My take on diet over the years has actually evolved into something that can be more flexible. I no longer buy into the good foods vs bad foods arguement. "This vs that" on any subject matter (let that be diet, workout style, politics) is usually just to stir things up, keep people confused, and keep the distracted from the reality that perhaps it doesn't have to be an either or thing. That's a side note, but it's just my take on things in general.

    There's also another idea I came up with about a year ago after reading about the case study that was done where the professor went on the junk food diet and lost 27 lbs in 10 weeks and showed improvements on all health markers. Also note that all the minor problems that people whine and complain about diet, really are insignificant when you take into account how many people are getting fat sick and dying from the foods they eat. In other words, the main problems that people should be concerned about when it comes to diet is, the ones that kill them. And the main killer is the foods that are making them fat.

    With that in mind, one can conclude that when it comes to diet, most people shouldn't be worried about minor problems from diet such as cholesterol, celiacs disease, acne, etc.. All those points become mute if you're looking at a destiny of getting fat and dying of a heart attack or what ever. Therefore the main problem most people need to tackle is being fat. Yes, this is true, in the USA that is, 66% of the people (which is most) are fat.

    For that reason, I don't care what they eat or what method they use, as long as it works for them. If they can make it so they aren't fat anymore, they're accomplishing something that the majority of the people in the USA can't. They are also possibly saving their own lives and possibly saving themselves from losing decades off their lives due to an early death.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripped View Post
    Kochin,
    Thank you very much for the long response. Very informative. Very simple.

    I liked your response to #9 the most. And I think that was just what I was looking for.

    My take on diet over the years has actually evolved into something that can be more flexible. I no longer buy into the good foods vs bad foods arguement. "This vs that" on any subject matter (let that be diet, workout style, politics) is usually just to stir things up, keep people confused, and keep the distracted from the reality that perhaps it doesn't have to be an either or thing. That's a side note, but it's just my take on things in general.

    There's also another idea I came up with about a year ago after reading about the case study that was done where the professor went on the junk food diet and lost 27 lbs in 10 weeks and showed improvements on all health markers. Also note that all the minor problems that people whine and complain about diet, really are insignificant when you take into account how many people are getting fat sick and dying from the foods they eat. In other words, the main problems that people should be concerned about when it comes to diet is, the ones that kill them. And the main killer is the foods that are making them fat.

    With that in mind, one can conclude that when it comes to diet, most people shouldn't be worried about minor problems from diet such as cholesterol, celiacs disease, acne, etc.. All those points become mute if you're looking at a destiny of getting fat and dying of a heart attack or what ever. Therefore the main problem most people need to tackle is being fat. Yes, this is true, in the USA that is, 66% of the people (which is most) are fat.

    For that reason, I don't care what they eat or what method they use, as long as it works for them. If they can make it so they aren't fat anymore, they're accomplishing something that the majority of the people in the USA can't. They are also possibly saving their own lives and possibly saving themselves from losing decades off their lives due to an early death.
    Words of wisdom indeed.
    I take the more detached approach, where I put everything down to the individual to fix. On an individual basis, it makes sense to want to live up to your full potential. You don't NEED to, the same way you don't need a fast car, or eight kids, or a book contract or steak for dinner. But, as an individual, it's your job to get it for yourself if you WANT it. If you want it and work for it, the world will help you. If you want it but won't work for it, then fuck you and stop whining. Ultimately, individuals find ways to meet their individual needs.

    However, if you're interested in helping an entire population...
    I find everyone needs a nudge or two towards health. The population as a whole needs to lose weight, get more active and cut back on drugs (myself included, as caffeine has recently become my main destressor again). But their small ailments are something for them to work with. Some people get acne from eating oranges, for crying out loud! We can't help them with that. Not with a vegetarian diet, or a paleo one, or a fruitarian one, or a vegan one, or a primal one, or a Japanese one... However, any of those diets COULD help their weight problems, sleep issues, deficiencies and other major ailments. So anything that helps them do that is good for the population, even if, within that population, each individual still suffers their own distinct ailments.
    The more you read on diet, lifestyle, health and medication, the more you find that every human has such unique needs that you can't do any better than that anyway. If you want to help people, then helping their general health comes first and they must be left to work out the nuances themselves.
    --
    Perfection is entirely individual. Any philosophy or pursuit that encourages individuality has merit in that it frees people. Any that encourages shackles only has merit in that it shows you how wrong and desperate the human mind can get in its pursuit of truth.

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    I'd apologize, but...

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripped View Post
    I'm not a hippie, vegan, or pothead. I'm omnivorous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleo0731 View Post
    This part made me laugh.
    Lol.... yeah.... I'm pretty sure that only one of those three by definition is not allowed to be omnivorous

    Anyway I read 1-8 and saw that each was easily refuted and proven incorrect. Hopefully Ripped does some homework and gets it all straight for himself. I'm not in the mood for providing the lengthy response necessary. Oh, I see kochin already did... good!

  9. #39
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    Can primates cook their meat?


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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Anyway I read 1-8 and saw that each was easily refuted and proven incorrect. Hopefully Ripped does some homework and gets it all straight for himself. I'm not in the mood for providing the lengthy response necessary. Oh, I see kochin already did... good!
    Well, as I already mentioned, I don't think I was looking for answers to how we "should or shouldn't eat". It seems to much when people scope out which diet to follow, they are really looking for a religion. Then they want peer approval to make sure their meals are "ok". Not my thing.

    And as for the questions that actually popped up, it appears to me what I was thinking from the beginning. We can ponder these questions, do research, and on and on and on. And we can break our brains and drive ourselves nuts doing it. But at the end of the day, the answer is still the same. We can eat what ever we want.

    Come to think of it, I think it was my doctor that made me really start to question about stuff. Because she was trying to cram this vegetarian crap down my throat. She seems to put the blame on a lot of issues on diet. Her excuse was because of the hormones people inject into the meat. And she claims it's hard to get meat these days without that. I don't know what kind of books she's reading, but somehow she's forgetting the fact that we live on an island here where they don't have factory farms and the local farmers are probably too poor to afford all that stuff. My friend who owns a restaurant here says that most of the meat and eggs here are free range organic. The eggs are delicious!!!

    The word "context" comes to mind.

    Anyways, as far as muscle and strength goes, hearing reports from the others and looking back on my own experience, I have to take a second look at conventional wisdom and personal experience. I always seem to do better with strength when I was consuming more meat. Was it a coincidence? I don't know. I know one freaky strongman competitor who claimed to have WAY more energy while eating vegan style, but strongman is more of an endurance sport as apposed to powerlifting, so you need more carbs. (He was probably taking steroids too, which clearly helps more than anything else.) I think with powerlifting, you need the creatine from the meat. Heck, if all bodybuilders practiced veganism and touted it to sell tofu in adds, but got their results from taking steroids without telling anyone as they do today, people would believe it and blindly follow that one too.

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