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  1. #11
    Ripped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssn679doc View Post
    I found this article on primate strength, and apparently it is due to physiology and neuromuscular control, and diet has little to do with the differences in primate strength.
    The Secret To Chimp Strength
    Makes me think back again about the muscle mass issue. As discussed in a recent thread, I was actually able to lose 20-25 lbs in 4 days while fasting, that which I'm sure was at least 90% weight lost from glycogen, water, undigested food, and poop, and less than 10% weight lost from fat. A clear example of how fast weight can fluctuate. And I don't even take caffeine.

    An additional note is that amongst personal trainers that have more of a realistic view on what is possible or common naturally, most trainees will gain only say 30-50 lbs of muscle in a lifetime naturally. But since water weight can fluctuate dramatically, we get undigested food and poop stuck in us, our muscles can get better at storing glycogen and water, you can get more visceral fat which can't be pinched from the outside, and the prediction methods for body fat % suck, it really makes me wonder how much muscle it really is that is gained. Maybe 30 lbs tops? I don't know.

    And aside from that, what does diet really have to do with it, if at all? Brad Pilon in his book "How much Protein?" sited some studies that showed that any less than 60 grams of protein per day can hinder the "rate" of muscle growth. In other words, it doesn't stop it, it just slows it down. And truth is, you can get almost get that much from fruit alone, perhaps you can reach it with enough calories or the right fruit. Like I said, it doesn't stop the process, it just slows it. So if you've already gained all your muscle, how's it going to help if you met the goal? On the other hand, if you really needed that much and couldn't get it all from fruit, you could always throw in say 1-2 glasses of milk, a few eggs, a small amount of meat, etc..

    Again, I'm not saying don't eat the meat. I'm just wondering how much diet really plays a role and some of this stuff. And same with protein. I'm not just thinking about muscle growth and strength, although that is important to me. I want to be healthy too.

  2. #12
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    Humans would certainly have had famine or feast as part of their every day experience. I believe the idea of occasional gorging and extended fasting is worth exploring. Like you said kill a mammoth and everyone eats like crazy before the meat goes off or is stolen. Spend a few days sleeping off the excesses and go hunting again. For Northern Europeans (like me) fruit would have been only seasonally available but gorging on blackberries sounds like fun. Plains Indians would make pemmican with fat, dried buffalo and blueberries ground up together and this would sustain them for most of the winter. You wouldn't pick a fight with one either.
    Man seeks to change the foods available in nature to suit his tastes, thereby putting an end to the very essence of life contained in them.
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  3. #13
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    MaceyUK,
    Thanks a lot for your post. Some of it was very informative. It was long, so while I agree with a lot of your points, I might at least question some others, but I don't want to make the thread too long and full of dispute. I want to get the information to each other.

    So for that reason, I will say that I like this one the most!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaceyUK View Post
    Be your own N=1 experiment
    I like that. I don't think I want to try to go without meat for a year. NO WAY!!! But if I can get the guts, I'd like to try something crazy such as fruit for a month. Some of the vegans (cough cough, wacky as they are), say that it's pretty nice.

    Sorry if I offended anyone with that making fun comment. But it is true. "Some" vegans are wacky. Nothing wrong with being a vegan for what ever your reason is. But if you read any of their literature, you'll notice that some of them try to shove it down your throat like it's religion or something, and they'll even lie and bias just to try to fit their own agenda. And to me, that's just wacky and dishonest.

    Why do I even mention that? Well, because I was trying to look into some stuff out of curiosity. And one site actually screens their forum applicants, asks for general personal information, and doesn't allow anyone to participate that doesn't agree 100% with their views. In other words, you can't just go there as an omnivore and ask questions. They'll either deny your access and/or kick you off. Hence, no free thought, just blind following.

    Imagine of MDA was like that? We'd probably lose some of the best forum members. Some of the smartest ones are the ones that are smart enough to ask questions, to think critically, and to be open minded enough to look into a subject matter first before they actually make a judgement as to what they believe.

    Sorry if that one was too long.
    Peace folks.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifegill View Post
    Oh, hold it.
    Colonic fermentation: a neglected topic in human physiology education

    This implies our hindguts DO ferment. Hence the farty-farts?
    I never believed the "meat rots in yer gut" line from the anti-meat crowd (I'm not saying KnifeGill is anti-meat). I'm convinced its all the artificial chemicals and plastics (that what I call it) in our assembly line food. Our stomach and intestines have digestive juices that would, given enough time, probably melt metal. Meat is no problem for it.

    Since going Primal I have about 80% less gas and intestinal discomfort and my "farts" are not NEARLY as offensive as they used to be.
    50 year old Male
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaceyUK View Post
    Humans would certainly have had famine or feast as part of their every day experience. I believe the idea of occasional gorging and extended fasting is worth exploring. Like you said kill a mammoth and everyone eats like crazy before the meat goes off or is stolen. Spend a few days sleeping off the excesses and go hunting again. For Northern Europeans (like me) fruit would have been only seasonally available but gorging on blackberries sounds like fun. Plains Indians would make pemmican with fat, dried buffalo and blueberries ground up together and this would sustain them for most of the winter. You wouldn't pick a fight with one either.
    Right. To elaborate on the thing I'm saying about the protein is that maybe too much protein is ok. But perhaps too much protein every day isn't because it doesn't allow for autophagy. You eat plenty and this allows you to store up some fat. You take a break, burn up some fat, and burn up some bad cells along with it.

    They didn't have ice cream back in the day. I bet it'd be quite the treat when they found fruit trees in northern areas!!! In hot southern areas, perhaps it was a better mix. More fatty meat in the north, more lean meat and fruit in the south.

  6. #16
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    I never believed the "meat rots in yer gut" line from the anti-meat crowd (I'm not saying KnifeGill is anti-meat). I'm convinced its all the artificial chemicals and plastics (that what I call it) in our assembly line food. Our stomach and intestines have digestive juices that would, given enough time, probably melt metal. Meat is no problem for it.

    Since going Primal I have about 80% less gas and intestinal discomfort and my "farts" are not NEARLY as offensive as they used to be.
    I think I've N=1'd living off meat long enough to know it's nearly perfect. Meat dissolves almost completely in the early digestive tract. On steak and eggs, I had perfect stools! But as for starch, I am almost a complete stranger to the ways!


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  7. #17
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    How about fruit compared to vegetables as far as digestion goes?

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripped View Post
    Right. To elaborate on the thing I'm saying about the protein is that maybe too much protein is ok. But perhaps too much protein every day isn't because it doesn't allow for autophagy. You eat plenty and this allows you to store up some fat. You take a break, burn up some fat, and burn up some bad cells along with it.
    I don't believe that your body goes into autophagy unless you fast. Unused protein is broken down in the liver and made into urea so when you buy a protein shake and have it after dinner you really are pissing away your money. I've been trying 16/8 IF every few days and it seems to be working nicely.
    Man seeks to change the foods available in nature to suit his tastes, thereby putting an end to the very essence of life contained in them.
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  9. #19
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    1,2,3: -- All of these are comparing a human to an entirely different species, of which the common ancestor is in the neighborhood of 1.5 million years ago. By this same logic, bears and dogs (share a common ancestor of closer lineage, look at the muzzles of both species) should be compared. A grizzly is often strongly herbivoric, eating meat only seasonally when it is most available. Black bears almost never eat meat....yet they are pure muscle, one of the most powerful animals on Earth.

    4. Our bodies don't have any traits of a carnivore.
    -- Not true. Our dentition is poor for eating plants. We also have a small, more acidic stomach, no ruminant structures, no cud processing. Also our plant eating is very selective. Checkout what a bear or deer can eat that we cannot....pickup an acorn snack and see how that goes

    5. Our digestive tracks represent that of a herbivore, not a carnivore.
    -- See above. Not remotely true. I have gutted deer, bears, rabbits, elk, etc. The cud processing, compartmentalizing stomach is the evolved state of a herbivore. Eating constantly is the rule of the day for most herbivores, due to the low calorie content of most real-world vegetable matter. The digestive track is very long, especially in the beginning stomachs, usually multiple....a carnivore, like a wolf or lion, is longer on the BACK end, like our small and large intestines are.

    6.We can survive off from meat. No problem. I'm sure other primates could too.
    7. Meat was essential for survival in places and during times when plants weren't available.

    -- Even though we CAME from equatorial Africa, many estimate that only a few thousand initially left. In other words, we were NOT yet a very successful species....what separated us as a species was the ability to thrive in cold, short growing season places, and to be strong hunters in the initial cradles of civilization. It is not that we ate meat "when plants were not available", as this would be about 60% of the year in most places outside the equator....and it is in these places where our population exploded. We lived that way for a very long time in between leaving the equator and civilization coming about, and we survived from hunting and gathering roots for a good part of the year. I haven't seen any research that proves we did otherwise on scale.

    8,9. Agree.

    10. The story is that if we fast, the body ends up eating a little bit of muscle after glycogen runs out. Ok? So what happens if we don't have much protein, but maintain enough glycogen to run off? What is considered a lot? Why? Where are the numbers coming from? Says who? Have they identified a cause affect relationship?

    -- I am a huge fasting advocate. I think the idea that we, as such successful mammals, start to CONSUME our own bodies in massive amounts if we go a day without food is without evolutionary basis. An animal that starts to lose "fitness" in the evolutionary sense if it goes a day without eating is an animal that won't be around for very long. It was likely very common for our ancestors to go days without food, even weeks in a bad season....and food would have been rationed to women and children first, so especially in the case of younger males, fasting and gorging was likely the rule most of the year.

    11. Has anyone ever identified a cause affect relationship where something bad happens if you don't eat meat?

    -- Yes, me.....I was a vegan for over 3 years, prior to going paleo....here is the unvarnished reality:
    As a young male with the calorie requirements I have (and yourself), you have really 2 choices. Number one is that you stick to "real plant food". This means nothing processed, no shakes, no soy industrial trash, etc....If you do this route, as I learned the hard way, you will be a very weak, skinny guy with bad skin and low testosterone....option two is that you do a "hacked version" of vegan, whereupon you use all kinds of industrial food system loopholes to "stay vegan", whilst trying to be ripped up. This means a lot of soy shakes, eating 10 bananas at a sitting to refill glycogen after a workout, eating a lot of Tofurkey. If you do this, your gut will be roadkill, you will have a lot of muscle and also a lot of fat, and again have low T due to the soy intake.

    I have yet to meet a young vegan male that doesn't fit one of those two approaches...if you are 55 and a female, with 1400 cal a day as your requirements, then yes, you can eat lettuce all day and probably feel fine. You will need to supplement with B and iron, but you won't be a tubby pale ball of cookie dough like I was as a vegan years ago

    12. As discussed in PB, our ancestors got A LOT more physical activity in than we do today.

    -- Yes, but it was selective from the research I have seen....the young and capable were likely tasked with doing everything, while those older (we didn't all die at 30) were likely much more lazy....also, this only speaks to the VERY high caloric needs of those in any given tribe that keep it running....see above for what this means.

    As for the protein stuff, I have always considered that to be garbage. I eat a lot of protein, about 200g a day, but I do that because it is healthy and because protein is the preferred macro of the body. I don't think it's necessary to eat that much, but it is available to me in very lean form (rabbit) in abundance.

    I enjoy the discussion as well though. Some of this stuff needs to get debated to help us see the forest a little more than the trees....if I see one more "carbs vs fat" discussion on here I am going to hang myself with dental floss.

    "Carbs are the preferred macro due to the Krebs/Randle/Krusty the Clown cycle.....blah, blah, blah"

    Don't eat for 18 hours, then go deadlift 3x bodyweight, then eat a Ribeye and some fruit, then shut the hell up and do it again tomorrow.

    Done. Diet book written
    "Man is born free.....but everywhere he is in chains."

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
    truth and stuff
    thanks for injecting that in to this thread
    I have a lot of hard miles on my body from before I realized I'm not 100% invulnerable. Now I just think I'm 75% invulnerable. -Mr. Anthony

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