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Thread: Glucose burning, fat storing animals. page 5

  1. #41
    dilberryhoundog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet Leilani View Post
    I was just asking these questions because we store fat. That is the our natural storage of energy. So wouldn't that also mean that is our body's natural fuel of choice? Seems logical.

    That's why i wanted to know if any animals out there in the world stored fat but used something else as their preferred fuel. If there were it would help me bridge the disconnect I have when I read the threads about glucose being man preferred fuel even though we store fat.

    Just had a thought, and this may seem a little crazy, but is it possible that groups that eat a high carb (non western) diet like the kitavans are actually fermenting more of their food in their gut then the general western population? That even though they eat high carbs they are actually high fermenters? And so are still primarily fat burners because of the SFAs the gut produces?

    What if it isn't about carbs or fat consumed so much as it is about gut microbes converting carbs we eat to fat anyways? Or lack of gut microbes converting carbs to SFA because of too much vegetable oils/toxins/antibiotics?

    If we look to the animal kingdom, of which we still are a part (Gucci handbags and Tag Heuer watches be damned) then surely we must see there the answer. We run on fat, we're meant to run on fat and it doesn't matter whether we eat the fat, or convert carbs to SFAs. The folks following the potato hack but getting into ketosis should be a perfect example of this.
    Here is a few things...

    Our metabolism is run off the level of glucose in the blood, infact it is the only energy substrate our bodies measures. From this measurement our whole metabolism is configured by our body.
    So yeah glucose in the blood is pretty important.

    Fast twitch muscles (the ones that provide all our strength and speed) only run on glycogen, no fat.

    Glucose is our "high power" fuel but it is costly to store in great amounts (heavy). So our body has the ability to burn a much more efficient "low power" fuel (fat) along side glucose. This greatly spares glucose for important tasks.

    Think of it like this. Without fat our minimal glucose stores would run out very quick. With usable fat our glucose stores become a lot more functional, lasting for long periods. That's the idea of ketogenesis, it's all about glucose sparing for the body.

    Fat is glucose's wingman. We'd be long gone if we relied on either substrate singularly. You wouldn't drive a top fueler dragster to the shops for the milk and bread and you would bring your Toyota corolla to be the fastest over a quarter mile.

    So we can run our whole body on glucose if we want, it seems that glucose is our preferred fuel but we seemed to have evolved an ability to burn fat in all our "low intensity" body cells, to get a lot more functionality out of ourselfs.


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    Last edited by dilberryhoundog; 10-26-2013 at 05:57 AM.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet Leilani View Post
    Why would glucose being utilised first mean that it's the preferred fuel? By that logic shouldn't alcohol be our preferred fuel? From what i understand alcohol is dealt with before anything else because the body see alcohol as being toxic to the body. So maybe glucose is utilised first because too much of it is not good for the body?

    And why would being able to access fat on the body equate to starvation? Why would we have a massive storage pool of energy but not be able to utilise it without the body going into crisis mode?

    And thank you thank you thank you for not responding in a technical way
    This doesn't make any sense because alcohol has no known metabolites, whereas glucose has tons, and tons of processes in the body. Glycogen is a homopolymer of glucose which is also highly branched, with branch linkages occurring every 8-10 residues. So, even though "small amounts" are stored, glycogen has a very compact structure from the coiling of the polymer chains which allows large amounts of carbon energy to be stored in a small volume, with little effect on cellular osmolarity. Excess carbohydrates are also converted to palmitate, a saturated fat, whereas alcohol has to be oxidized immediately.

    The brain itself can consume up to 20% oxidized carbohydrates, whereas fatty acids can't be used, and have to convert ketones from the liver. The fact glucose is spared for the brain, and many precursors are spared for glucose(gluconeogenesis), shows that this is a sign of starvation as one example.

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    Last edited by Derpamix; 10-26-2013 at 08:27 AM.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    lol.... I appreciate your technical jargon much of the time. Really a good deal of it is just enough over my head to make me go read up and learn some more. Kinda like reading Hyperlipid, but from the carb angle
    That's cool, likewise for you, as we've had similar bro moments in the past. Most of the time I look at it like arguing is a road to understanding.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet Leilani View Post
    Yes I agree, we do store and burn both but that doesn't mean we are supposed to be primarily glucose burners. Glucose has it's place, and probably a bigger place in the West with all it's added stress of modern living etc, but that still doesn't mean we aren't supposed to be fat burners primarily right?
    Your logic still fails because humans are not "supposed" to be either or, - humans will burn fat or glucose, or BOTH, depending on circumstances. What's most healthy with respect to macros? That depends on a lot of factors, such as activity level, genetic etc., nobody have the exact answer, so many parameters...
    Last edited by Gorbag; 10-26-2013 at 08:52 AM.

  5. #45
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    Oh god Dilberryhoundog and Gorbag, I just had a light bulb moment!!!

    What you two are saying is that we burn BOTH glucose and fat AT THE EXACT SAME TIME?? For some reason I had always understood it to be a one or the other. But at any given moment, if we zero in on our cells, some will be using glucose, while the cell next door might be busy burning fat yes?

    If I understand this correctly, what you're both saying is we ARE NOT preferentially glucose burners as the Petards say, and we're also not preferentially fat burners as the Ketards say. What we all are is a ratio of the two. And that ratio would be different between individuals and different within an individual depending on a host of reasons.

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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet Leilani View Post
    Oh god Dilberryhoundog and Gorbag, I just had a light bulb moment!!!

    What you two are saying is that we burn BOTH glucose and fat AT THE EXACT SAME TIME?? For some reason I had always understood it to be a one or the other. But at any given moment, if we zero in on our cells, some will be using glucose, while the cell next door might be busy burning fat yes?

    If I understand this correctly, what you're both saying is we ARE NOT preferentially glucose burners as the Petards say, and we're also not preferentially fat burners as the Ketards say. What we all are is a ratio of the two. And that ratio would be different between individuals and different within an individual depending on a host of reasons.

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    Lol. True and false.

    Both reactions happen in the body but different activation energies and rates of reactions. Just because both can happen at the same time doesn't overall the body uses one process more bc the reaction happen easier and faster.




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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet Leilani View Post
    Oh god Dilberryhoundog and Gorbag, I just had a light bulb moment!!!

    What you two are saying is that we burn BOTH glucose and fat AT THE EXACT SAME TIME?? For some reason I had always understood it to be a one or the other. But at any given moment, if we zero in on our cells, some will be using glucose, while the cell next door might be busy burning fat yes?

    If I understand this correctly, what you're both saying is we ARE NOT preferentially glucose burners as the Petards say, and we're also not preferentially fat burners as the Ketards say. What we all are is a ratio of the two. And that ratio would be different between individuals and different within an individual depending on a host of reasons.

    I like this. I really like this.
    Regulation of TCA cycle occurs at the level of entry of substrates into the cycle and also by reactions of the cycle. TCA cycle fueled mostly by acetyl-CoA, which means, generation of acetyl-CoA from carbs controls the major point of the cycle which is catalyzed by the PDH complex. Cellular ratio of NAD+/NADH has the biggest impact on the flux of carbon through the TCA cycle, and also the substrate availability. You'd need to look up how reactions are influenced in order to see how each fuel is utilized. So, it's not as simple as the stoichiometry shows, and you don't utilize both at the same time, at least not in the way I believe you're alluding to.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid_cycle
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randle_cycle
    Last edited by Derpamix; 10-26-2013 at 04:54 PM.
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  8. #48
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    I've found this to be a useful resource:

    The Medical Biochemistry Page

    When it comes to biochem a picture really is worth a thousand words.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    I've found this to be a useful resource:

    The Medical Biochemistry Page
    Yup

    I studied that entire site intently a few months ago.
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  10. #50
    Derpamix's Avatar
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    One thing about that site that sticks out is the wrongful vilifying of saturated fats, though. So, ignore that portion as it's not medically correct.
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