About carbs. page

[Griff]

Okay, I gotta get this out there because it needs a wider audience than it's getting in page 3-6 of another thread. And I'll admit, I'm a touch irritated, so please bear with me.

When I say "Don't eat carbs," I mainly mean starchy carbs. I mean carbs that are going to spike your blood sugar. I mean potatoes, other tubers, grains, most fruit, legumes, sugars, candy, maple syrup, honey, most liquid dairy. I mean stuff that breaks down into fructose and/or glucose and prompts an insulin spike. I mean stuff that jabs at your beta cells.

People here have interpreted my saying "Don't eat carbs" as "don't follow the PB recommendations for vegetables" and/or "don't eat any vegetables or fruits at all." Well, that second one's not too far from the truth. There are plenty of people on here who are strict carnivores and never touch a veggie or a piece of fruit - and they're doing just fine. I am not that strict, but I do pick and choose which veggies I'm going to eat, and I have fruit maybe once a week, tops (1/2 cup of frozen strawberries). I never go over 50g of total carbs in a day, and I try very hard to keep it below 5% of my daily caloric intake (and usually succeed).

People have interpreted my position on reduction of carb intake as extreme. I won't deny it. It is extreme, and with good reason. Everything I've read about fructose, glucose, and insulin has me scared green. My father died because he loved him his grains and his dairy and ate a lot of them because, like everyone else infected with CW, he thought that was "healthy eating." Just for the record, gangrene and cancer are horrifying ways to die. May none of you ever see your father die from his feet rotting off because the doctors couldn't do an amputation because he was too brittle of a diabetic to survive surgery, okay? Like I said, I have good reason to be freaking terrified of carbs. And I'll admit that I'm doing my best to scare everyone else about them, too because it. was. HORRIFYING. I don't want anyone else to go through that if they can avoid it.

I've been accused of fear-mongering and trying to promote fear of carbs like the CW promotes fear of fat and cholesterol. Well, unlike the fat fear and the cholesterol fear that have been promoted by CW for the last sixty to eighty years, my fear of carbs and what they do to the body is actually backed up by science. Don't believe me? Read the PB. Read the Drs. Eades and their book Protein Power. Read Gary Taubes' book Good Calories, Bad Calories. It's all there in black and white, in peer-reviewed articles.

Now. I will admit that not everyone out there is a proto-diabetic. But I will argue with anyone who says "Oh, it won't happen to me, I'm an athlete/I'm not fat." There are plenty of diabetic athletes. There are plenty of skinny diabetics. Do not trick yourself into thinking that just because you're an athlete, you aren't already primed for developing diabetes. There are athletes on this forum who are diabetic and who always will be, and not all of them are in their fifties or sixties and at the point where aging has as much to do with their condition as the SAD. Some of them are younger than I am, and lived on the CW "healthy whole grains, fruits and vegetables" diet for five or six years during training, and killed their pancreases. And now they're diabetics. So it CAN happen, and it DOES happen, and we've even got evidence that it happens right here in this forum. So please don't kid yourselves that it doesn't.

Will a person eating between 50 and 150 grams of leafy green veggies and other Primal carbs get diabetes? Probably not. But I'd still urge anyone who is dealing with any kind of insulin resistance, weight problem, or blood sugar issues to cut their carbs down as much as possible anyway, and let's be honest, that's most of the people here on this forum. Most people came to MDA not so they could be better athletes or get more ripped, but so that they could stop dying from being overweight and unhealthy. And as I've said above, even those who are here primarily for the workouts should not kid themselves that they are not at risk for diabetes. If you've been eating the SAD for any appreciable length of time, you've put yourself at risk even if you're not eating it now. Here's why:

The effect of overdoing carbs on the pancreas means that beta cells die. Those are the cells responsible for producing insulin. And those cells, once gone, are GONE. They don't regenerate, and they don't come back. Kill enough of them, and your pancreas essentially can't do its job anymore. If you're coming out of the SAD and you're forty or fifty or two hundred pounds overweight - or if you have high blood pressure, which is another sign of hyperinsulinemia according to the Drs. Eades, or if you have insulin resistance even if you don't have extra weight - you've probably already done a real number on your beta cells. That's why I am so vehement that people who are in this situation should be conservative with their carb intake. Preserve the beta cells you have left and eat minimal carbs to make sure that you aren't killing any more of them - how is this not logical, folks?

Now, if you want to argue with me, go ahead. But that's my position and I'm sticking to it unless someone can show me scientific proof that I'm wrong.

[rphlslv]

I agree with a lot of things you say. I have been carnivore for the past few months and I felt great indeed, but I'm suffering at the gym. Carbs do have their place on one's diet. Nobody here is going to kill their pancreas simply because no one here is eating grains, sugar, and tons of fruit. Your advice is good, but it doesn't apply to everyone.

[eva]

im SO with you on this one.
kinda comforting to read this from you. so many oldtimers have left probably just for this reason- the forums have changed into a conventional count-the-cals-and-eat-plenty-of-fruits kind of a place.

[Jedi]

I guess my feeling is also that your advice will be valid for many but not all. You often tell people they should drop their carbs to around 20gr per day and i don't feel that is necessary for health and fatloss for everyone, though i am sure it is helpful for some. Also if i eat tubers with protein and fat i do NOT get glucose spike at all (measured) nor do i with dairy for example. Our bodies do not all react in the same way. That's why I like the PB because it is flexible for different people.

[Griff]

I agree with a lot of things you say. I have been carnivore for the past few months and I felt great indeed, but I'm suffering at the gym. Carbs do have their place on one's diet. Nobody here is going to kill their pancreas simply because no one here is eating grains, sugar, and tons of fruit. Your advice is good, but it doesn't apply to everyone.

Maybe it's not so important to excel at the gym. Maybe it's not so important to be ripped. Maybe you need to ease off on the workouts. Think about those things.

[Metismomma]

Amen Griff *clap*
My mother has type 2 diabetes, my favorite aunt died due to type 2 diabetes, another aunt has type 1 diabetes. I suffered from hypoglycemic symptoms( but couldn't get a diagnosis) Eating primally has reduced those symptoms significantly, and I'm not AS scared about becoming diabetic. Still not something I want in my life though.

I do try to keep my carb intake below 100g, but not in ketosis. Maybe there is a reason for it that someone could explain to me, but I feel like hell when I'm in ketosis.

I wish I could convince my stubborn mother to try something like PB. I sent her a bunch of links, I hope she looks at them and takes them to heart. It hurts me to see how much shit she's going through. High blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes(probably has syndrome X) overweight, probably dealing with thyroid issues(even though she has it tested regularly, I get the feeling she's not getting it tested properly), on tons of meds and doing stuff like weight watchers. *sigh*
went offtopic, sorry Griff.

I get what you are saying and what you meant to begin with. Thanks for that .

[tfarny]

I'm pretty new on here, but I have to say you are overgeneralizing from your awful personal experience about which I am very sorry to hear. I have not seen or read a shred of scientific evidence, in Taube's book or elsewhere, that the level of carbs you get from following Mark's standard PB advice will lead to (ie cause) diabetes or other health problems. You seem to be extremely stuck in the "if a lot is bad, then a little is also bad" mentality. I personally have lost weight, gained muscle and overall health, & tremendously benefited in the last few months, and I tend to average about 100 grams / day of carbs. That is about 1/3 or less the carbs that the SAD people normally get, even the healthy eaters. In fact, I would be shocked if a good, controlled study has ever been done on this issue. Kurt Harris, who is a pretty sharp cookie and a VLC guy, doesn't think 100 grams / day has any neg effects.

[Griff]

@Metismomma: Ketosis is what burns the fat. You need to be in ketosis to burn fat. What do you mean when you say you feel like hell? Describe it.

[NorthernMonkeyGirl]

The effect of overdoing carbs on the pancreas means that beta cells die. Those are the cells responsible for producing insulin. And those cells, once gone, are GONE.

I didn't know this; or I skim-read and it didn't register.

F*ck.

Good job I like greenery! Good job my carrots have been eaten by the ants!

Thank you for a timely prod, as always

[AntonG]

Maybe it's not so important to excel at the gym. Maybe it's not so important to be ripped. Maybe you need to ease off on the workouts. Think about those things.

thats the thing, to us working out IS that important. it makes us feel good. there is no feeling in the world like finishing a long jiujitsu battle or feeling that much stronger. you may not understand because thats not one of your interests, but excelling at the gym feels great and is healthy. we are here to find out how to balance the PB and our lives so neither our health or workouts suffer.