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  1. #191
    Derpamix's Avatar
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    Primal Fuel
    So untrue. This is old too, it's even more disproportionate now:




    It's simple math. Making blanket statements to support an agenda is dishonest.


    In 40 states welfare pays more than an $8.00 an hour job. In 17 states the welfare package is more generous than a $10.00 an hour job.
    In Hawaii, Alaska, Massachusetts, Connecticut, the District of Columbia, New York, and Rhode Island welfare pays more than a $12.00 an hour job—or two and a half times the minimum wage.
    In nine states welfare pays more than the average first-year salary for a teacher. In 29 states it pays more than the average starting salary for a secretary. And in the six most generous states it pays more than the entry-level salary for a computer programmer.
    Welfare benefits are especially generous in large cities. Welfare provides the equivalent of an hourly pretax wage of $14.75 in New York City, $12.45 in Philadelphia, $11.35 in Baltimore, and $10.90 in Detroit. For the hard-core welfare recipient, the value of the full range of welfare benefits substantially exceeds the amount the recipient could earn in an entry-level job. As a result, recipients are likely to choose welfare over work, thus increasing long-term dependence.
    Not a problem? The federal government funds 126 separate programs designed to support low-income earners. 72 of these programs provide cash benefits to recipients. This is on top of additional welfare programs operated by state. There is literally an incentive not to work. Also, many people are now suffering grueling hours just to pay into these taxes(Britain is especially bad).

    I suggest you stop looking for news in leftist websites and blogs, because time and time again they've been shown to be dishonest and flat out evil in their protection of their welfare state.
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  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post

    1) The reason one cannot invoke Hitler or Mussolini into any discussion like this is that all serious historians have essentially agreed that it is false and ahistorical to discuss any of these people OUTSIDE of the context of nationalistic or racial superiority contexts....in other words, speaking about them in purely economic or ideological terms is an impossible representation of their views and policies. Hitler and The Duke were what they were not because of their views on redistributing money or about even the role of the state; these ideas were NOT invented by them, and have numerous examples throughout older and modern history of their use. These men are infamous monsters because of their sickening views on racial superiority, rebuilding of ancient empire, and creating "living space" (Hitler's words) for their people at any cost......Hitler was a NAZI, a caustic hater of jews, long before he was anything else. Any discussion of him, Mussolini and his brown-shirt visions of a rebuilt Roman empire, or Stalin's "state as a religion" mass murder of his own people, is a fools discussion without including these as the core of who they were and what they wanted....there is no modern parallel, outside of perhaps Cambodia or Maoist China. That is not my opinion. That is any educated historian's opinion.

    2) The US is VERY far from communism, as this is the elimination of private property through a statist regime....it is much closer to fascism politically, and these 2 systems are mortal enemies of one another. (Hitler wrote this out in his justification for Operation Barbarosa, mixed in with the other 80% which concerned racial superiority) Mussolini coined the fascism term, preferring instead though the Italian word for "Corporatist", as fascism is the merger of state and corporate interests.

    The US and Russia, per Putin's comments about socialism, are both corporatist oligarchies. What this means is that large capital runs both countries, and chooses both legislators and bureaucrats to protect their investments. This is what Obamacare was....not socialism, in which central planning and governmental control of the means of production are employed, but corporatism....it MANDATED by law that I buy a product from a PRIVATE company with stockholders. If that is anyone's definition of socialism or communism (abolishment of all private properyy), I suggest they read something once in awhile that Glenn Beck didn't write. Obama is a corporatist technocrat, Putin a tyrannical oligarch. They have much common ground.
    Thanks for taking the time to explain these terms, it's tiresome to hear the constant misuse of terms that have specific meanings. The AFC is NOT socialism. Obama could not be further from a socialist.
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  3. #193
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    Btw, our debt ceiling is increasing substantially thanks to these policies. Last year there was $100 billion dollars put into federal welfare. To say I hate it is an understatement.
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  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Forager View Post
    Thanks for taking the time to explain these terms, it's tiresome to hear the constant misuse of terms that have specific meanings. The AFC is NOT socialism. Obama could not be further from a socialist.
    lol it's the definition of socialism. ie; the myth of making all people the same(what this healthcare plan does), but more about funding their own pockets and stepping all over the backs of others.

    The rest of that is disinformation and propaganda regarding Hitler and cries of racism. It's taking an emotional stance into a political debate.
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  5. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoanieL View Post
    Anyway, I'm pro-welfare because I'm pro-feeding-children and because I believe it's one of the cheaper alternatives to just throwing the poor out on to the streets or warehousing poor children. And I'd love to see incentives for people to have fewer children. Sterilization for junkies would be cheap - enough cash to get their next fix would probably do it. Sorry if that sounds cold.
    You can support feeding children without being pro-welfare. That's like if I said, "I want people to have clothing, so I support government operated clothing factories." It's a mistake to believe that something won't get done just because government isn't doing it.

    Something like this happened when Grover Cleveland was president, I believe. There had been a very bad drought in Texas, and Congress passed a bill to give $10,000 to Texans so that they could buy seed. He vetoed it and said that charity is not the business of government. Private citizens in other parts of the country ended up raising about ten times what Congress had promised.
    In matters of style, swim with the current. In matters of principle, stand like a rock.

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  6. #196
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    I am afraid that Derp is actually correct here.....because of one big thing: taxes.

    I can speak for New Hampshire, the "Live Free of Die" state, which has welfare benefits on the lower end of the spectrum, last I checked. One can actually get this info for themselves in their state. It is all online now....

    For myself, a single 28yo male, if I am unemployed I can get about $1650 per month on welfare, if I am able to get the max. This amounts to $412 per week, TAX FREE. If I were to go get a job, I would need about $13 an hour to beat this, once I actually paid my (very low for the poor) taxes, on payroll and MC.

    These all change if one does have a job though....which is where it gets interesting, because I am (financially speaking) better off to STAY unemployed than get a low-paying job. If I were to earn $8 an hour, for a little over $300 per week after taxes, my endowment goes down to only about $1000 from the government....

    In summary:
    No job = $1600 per month, tax free
    Working poor job = $1300 per month, with minor taxes

    With this all said, I pin the blame on the fact that wages are stagnant more so than the policy itself....but yes, the welfare system is a mess. Most that are on it DO have a job, even though they could likely get on the dole and for a short time, get more money until their benefits run out.

    I don't care about right vs left. I care about stupid vs smart policy. That system we use is stupid, period.
    Last edited by TheyCallMeLazarus; 10-08-2013 at 01:03 PM.
    "They now look to a single and splendid government of an aristocracy, founded on banking institutions, and moneyed incorporations under the guise and cloak of their favored branches of manufactures, commerce and navigation, riding and ruling over the plundered ploughman and beggared yeomanry." - Thomas Jefferson, 1826

  7. #197
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    One positive of Obamacare that I have seen is some people I know are able to leave jobs they hate. They work at jobs only because they must have the health coverage, and now they can leave and buy their own. Some of them do not need subsidies, and would not qualify anyway, but the premiums and coverage are comparable to what they got at their old jobs.

    Even in my personal situation, this could free my wife up from her job should she want to go out on her own and get an independent plan to cover us.

  8. #198
    Rojo's Avatar
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    Why don't you all quit your jobs?

  9. #199
    Derpamix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
    I am afraid that Derp is actually correct here.....because of one big thing: taxes.

    I can speak for New Hampshire, the "Live Free of Die" state, which has welfare benefits on the lower end of the spectrum, last I checked. One can actually get this info for themselves in their state. It is all online now....

    For myself, a single 28yo male, if I am unemployed I can get about $1650 per month on welfare, if I am able to get the max. This amounts to $412 per week, TAX FREE. If I were to go get a job, I would need about $13 an hour to beat this, once I actually paid my (very low for the poor) taxes, on payroll and MC.

    These all change if one does have a job though....which is where it gets interesting, because I am (financially speaking) better off to STAY unemployed than get a low-paying job. If I were to earn $8 an hour, for a little over $300 per week after taxes, my endowment goes down to only about $1000 from the government....

    In summary:
    No job = $1600 per month, tax free
    Working poor job = $1300 per month, with minor taxes

    With this all said, I pin the blame on the fact that wages are stagnant more so than the policy itself....but yes, the welfare system is a mess. Most that are on it DO have a job, even though they could likely get on the dole and for a short time, get more money until their benefits run out.

    I don't care about right vs left. I care about stupid vs smart policy. That system we use is stupid, period.
    This is a case for charity vs welfare. Humans will always care for family naturally, but it can't be extended to an arbitrarily defined society. There is no natural motivation(no inherent love for strangers unlike family) so coercive force(taxes) is always required and always corrupts the intention. Coercion isn't justifiable in helping the poor based on some sort of social contract. It fails an argument from principles(it's morally wrong) and it fails an argument from pragmatism (it will always corrupt ideas as always seen).

    You could extend the family to define community as well.
    Last edited by Derpamix; 10-08-2013 at 01:25 PM.
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  10. #200
    Derpamix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    Why don't you all quit your jobs?
    I would, and would encourage all those like me to do the same. As a way to bleed the beast. Without suckers that they basically hold at gunpoint, the entire system falls apart. This is a way that I believe things will end up the further along this path they take. There is a reason there has never been a successful communist society and there never will be.
    Longing is the agony of the nearness of the distant

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