Page 14 of 40 FirstFirst ... 4121314151624 ... LastLast
Results 131 to 140 of 400

Thread: The metabolic advantage hypothesis page 14

  1. #131
    RichMahogany's Avatar
    RichMahogany is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    8,444
    Quote Originally Posted by pklopp View Post
    Ok, I'll bite. Shockingly, it turns out Choco doesn't really know what he's talking about. So where did this EFA propaganda come from? The seminal paper was from 1929 entitled "A NEW DEFICIENCY DISEASE PRODUCED BY THE RIGID EXCLUSION OF FAT FROM THE DIET.*" which fed experimental rats a diet completely devoid of fat. How did the animals fare under this regime?



    The pathology here is really interesting, particularly with respect to Choco's claim that fatty acid deficiencies do not manifest in any way as skin conditions, which, at least for rats, is completely wrong, and we've known about it for almost a century now.



    Choco's train of thought goes completely off the rails here equating margarine with essential fatty oils. So, in Choco's febrile imagination, partially hydrogenated vegetable oil is exactly the same as fish oil and WD40. Only someone with no understanding of biochemistry would make such a ridiculous claim. Speaking of fish oils, take a look at the below study which, among other things outlines some of the symptoms of essential fatty acid deficiency (EFAD) in humans (i.e. dermatitis and growth retardation ), as well as how to remedy that :



    So what happens when we feed rats fat, but not the essential fatty acids that Choco doesn't believe in?



    Well, we certainly observe a difference, and the rats that are not fed essential fatty acids do worse with respect to growth and cold tolerance.

    Back to humans, note the bit in bold again, yeah, it's going to address skin changes among other things:



    And one more for good measure:



    I don't know about Choco, but imparied growth, dermatitis ( there's that pesky skin pathology again ), steatosis (fatty liver disease), renal toxicity and pulmonary abnormalities sure do sound like symptoms of a deficiency to me. And the funny thing is, all of it can be avoided by taking, GASP, toxic Cod liver oil ( you know, the equivalent of swilling WD40 in Chocos world ).

    So, Choco, I'm taking you up on your offer to debunk these studies. Looking forward to sparring with you! And, by the way, I do sometimes find your advice helpful insofar as I do not put my faith in the things you say and I also do my own research!

    -PK
    Great info, pklopp. Can't wait to have a little more time to read it in depth and look into the citations. Thanks for posting it.

  2. #132
    Derpamix's Avatar
    Derpamix is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    California
    Posts
    5,371
    Quote Originally Posted by pklopp View Post
    Ok, I'll bite. Shockingly, it turns out Choco doesn't really know what he's talking about. So where did this EFA propaganda come from? The seminal paper was from 1929 entitled "A NEW DEFICIENCY DISEASE PRODUCED BY THE RIGID EXCLUSION OF FAT FROM THE DIET.*" which fed experimental rats a diet completely devoid of fat. How did the animals fare under this regime?



    The pathology here is really interesting, particularly with respect to Choco's claim that fatty acid deficiencies do not manifest in any way as skin conditions, which, at least for rats, is completely wrong, and we've known about it for almost a century now.



    Choco's train of thought goes completely off the rails here equating margarine with essential fatty oils. So, in Choco's febrile imagination, partially hydrogenated vegetable oil is exactly the same as fish oil and WD40. Only someone with no understanding of biochemistry would make such a ridiculous claim. Speaking of fish oils, take a look at the below study which, among other things outlines some of the symptoms of essential fatty acid deficiency (EFAD) in humans (i.e. dermatitis and growth retardation ), as well as how to remedy that :



    So what happens when we feed rats fat, but not the essential fatty acids that Choco doesn't believe in?



    Well, we certainly observe a difference, and the rats that are not fed essential fatty acids do worse with respect to growth and cold tolerance.

    Back to humans, note the bit in bold again, yeah, it's going to address skin changes among other things:



    And one more for good measure:



    I don't know about Choco, but imparied growth, dermatitis ( there's that pesky skin pathology again ), steatosis (fatty liver disease), renal toxicity and pulmonary abnormalities sure do sound like symptoms of a deficiency to me. And the funny thing is, all of it can be avoided by taking, GASP, toxic Cod liver oil ( you know, the equivalent of swilling WD40 in Chocos world ).

    So, Choco, I'm taking you up on your offer to debunk these studies. Looking forward to sparring with you! And, by the way, I do sometimes find your advice helpful insofar as I do not put my faith in the things you say and I also do my own research!

    -PK
    Distorted cherry picked studies, what a surprise. The 1929 study showed nothing more than that "EFA" deficiency is actually nothing more than ARA deficiency, and that the amounts required are infinitely small and you're guaranteed to get it via any nutrient replete diet alone. In fact, regarding in that study, vitamin b6 cured EFA "deficiency" alone via desaturation of D6D. Polyethenoid fatty acid metabolism. VI.... [Arch Biochem Biophys. 1952] - PubMed - NCBI

    More experiments were done on rats fed butter and coconut oil which did not prove totally curative and then again with lard, corn oil, flax oil, liver and olive oil which all proved fully curative which all have either linoleic acid or arachidonic acid. it was shown that when LA or ARA are isolated in purified form, the requirement to cure "deficiency" is slightly above 0.7% of your calories. This is probably still exaggerated because those experiments didn't take into the account the several vitamins(like b6 above) that facilitate conversion that again make the requirements infinitely small.

    Here is an experiment a biochemist did in which he ate a eucaloric diet very, very low in fat for 6 months to study EFA deficiency. All his health markers improved:

    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/16/6/511.full.pdf

    As for all your bullshit fish oil samples, you're using data that is patently biased and already exposed as such and not worth even addressing.
    Last edited by Derpamix; 10-07-2013 at 04:15 PM.
    nihil

  3. #133
    Derpamix's Avatar
    Derpamix is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    California
    Posts
    5,371
    Oh, and one more for the road:

    Mead acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    nihil

  4. #134
    magicmerl's Avatar
    magicmerl is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    3,219
    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    I'm flattered you find me important enough to have me in your browser bookmarks
    Hey, no problem. You provide a lot of good advice to people and are right about a lot of things. It's just counterweighted by arrogance and the rigid certainty that you're right, even when you're wrong.
    Last edited by magicmerl; 10-07-2013 at 05:09 PM.
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

    Griff's cholesterol primer
    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
    Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
    TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
    bloodorchid is always right

  5. #135
    turquoisepassion's Avatar
    turquoisepassion is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    NYC (and ATX)
    Posts
    2,743

    The metabolic advantage hypothesis

    ...
    So much fake biochem on this thread. I wont address stuff I don't have a clue about... But just some biochem stuff I do know something about. I don't know a lot in this world, but I know a little about biochem and organic chem.


    Pklopp:
    -deamination is a real process... But your picture of an amino acid is insufficient to support your claim that protein is treated as fatty acid if the one amine is removed. The "R" (representing a variable region) group could be a methyl group or some other hydrocarbon chain, in which case you are right, but it could also be one with its own amine, carboxylic acid, sulfur, ring structured hydrocarbon... Etc. Saying protein is just Fatty acid with the one amine group removed is kind of like saying we humans would all be identical if we remove our genetic variances from each other. You make it sound so easy! To say somethjng with an aromatic ring or weird 3-carbon ring is the same as something with a simple hydrocarbon chain is ridiculous.

    -the point about unsaturated fats in general is that they have a regulatory effect of making the cell wall more fluid, have a lower freezing point, so more adaptative for winters ...if you are a plant, small animal, or a cold blooded fish without a good centralized heating unit installed in your body. Human beings don't need o-3 unless human beings ingest other stuff that needs o-3 to balance out/out compete. Like o-6. So the studies showing o3 fixed something is usually becuase o3 is brought it to out compete some other unsaturated fat, or to counter the effects of some other unsaturated fat.

    - I disagree with anyone who doesn't think amino acids can be made from carb sources. Maybe a whole protein can't because there are a few essential amino acids we can't make ourselves (bcaa for example), but we can make most a.a. Just fine from carbs.

    -Oh and, biochemistry is a face paced field. Citing studies from before DNA's helical structure was discovered... Or anything more than 10-15 years old, is kind of outdated. Also I can find studies with the exact narrow hypothesis finding conflicting results on so much that nowadays I am generally skeptical of studies unless it is in Nature or something of similar caliber.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free
    Last edited by turquoisepassion; 10-08-2013 at 03:30 AM.
    ------
    HCLF: lean red meat, eggs, low-fat dairy, bone broth/gelatin, fruits, seafood, liver, small amount of starch (oatmeal, white rice, potatoes, carrots), small amount of saturated fat (butter/ghee/coconut/dark chocolate/cheese).

    My Journal: gelatin experiments, vanity pictures, law school rants, recipe links


    Food blog: GELATIN and BONE BROTH recipes

    " The best things in life are free and the 2nd best are expensive!" - Coco Chanel

  6. #136
    pklopp's Avatar
    pklopp is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    London
    Posts
    531
    Quote Originally Posted by turquoisepassion View Post
    ...
    So much fake biochem on this thread. I wont address stuff I don't have a clue about... But just some biochem stuff I do know something about. I don't know a lot in this world, but I know a little about biochem and organic chem.


    Pklopp:
    -deamination is a real process... But your picture of an amino acid is insufficient to support your claim that protein is treated as fatty acid if the one amine is removed. The "R" (representing a variable region) group could be a methyl group or some other hydrocarbon chain, in which case you are right, but it could also be one with its own amine, carboxylic acid, sulfur, ring structured hydrocarbon... Etc. Saying protein is just Fatty acid with the one amine group removed is kind of like saying we humans would all be identical if we remove our genetic variances from each other. You make it sound so easy! To say somethjng with an aromatic ring or weird 3-carbon ring is the same as something with a simple hydrocarbon chain is ridiculous.
    When I said that I would "try to give the Cliff's notes of Cliff's notes version about how energy metabolism works" I was saying I was about to give the summary of summaries ... necessarily eliding details. There is something to be said for not getting bogged down in the trees.

    Now, unless you are actually intending to make an accusation, you need to be careful with your language to differentiate between fake, and simplified, where one implies an active attempt to mislead, and the other merely that not all the details are being presented. Overall, you did gloss of the real point of the argument which was that the amine group is what makes proteins metabolically more "expensive" to process.

    Quote Originally Posted by turquoisepassion View Post
    .
    -the point about unsaturated fats in general is that they have a regulatory effect of making the cell wall more fluid, have a lower freezing point, so more adaptative for winters ...if you are a plant, small animal, or a cold blooded fish without a good centralized heating unit installed in your body. Human beings don't need o-3 unless human beings ingest other stuff that needs o-3 to balance out/out compete. Like o-6. So the studies showing o3 fixed something is usually becuase o3 is brought it to out compete some other unsaturated fat, or to counter the effects of some other unsaturated fat.
    Once you make an assertion like that, you have to actually provide something that resembles proof, not merely your opinion. In your own words, your statement "is insufficient to support your claim". And the point of all of the above is that cell membrane fluidity has a fundamental impact on metabolism, in general, more fluid being a better state than less, up to a point. But apart from membrane fluidity, dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids also affect membrane-associated enzyme and receptor functions, signal transduction, second messenger, and eicosanoid generation. These are pretty fundamental metabolic processes.

    Quote Originally Posted by turquoisepassion View Post
    - I disagree with anyone who doesn't think amino acids can be made from carb sources. Maybe a whole protein can't because there are a few essential amino acids we can't make ourselves (bcaa for example), but we can make most a.a. Just fine from carbs.
    I'm not sure if you are not confused about the process of transamination here, which nobody is disputing. But the fact of the matter is, you cannot produce nitrogen out of thin air ( this is a joke, by the way, since inorganic nitrogen is a large component of air ), you must get it from other protein sources. Transamination merely swaps an amine group from one carbon backbone to another. Fair enough, but you had to have that source in the first place. This shuffling of amine groups is in no sense the same as the creation of a new amine, and this is why protein intake is critical to growth.

    Quote Originally Posted by turquoisepassion View Post
    -Oh and, biochemistry is a face paced field. Citing studies from before DNA's helical structure was discovered... Or anything more than 10-15 years old, is kind of outdated. Also I can find studies with the exact narrow hypothesis finding conflicting results on so much that nowadays I am generally skeptical of studies unless it is in Nature or something of similar caliber.
    Agreed again, but when you cite "seminal" papers, or pioneering work, you are necessarily dealing with ground breaking, early work. Of course, subsequent work can revise understanding, and the most recent work tends to be most persuasive due to our increased knowledge and experimental methodologies. This is precisely why I cited four modern studies, references which you seem to not have examined before assuming they were pre-historic ( pre-Watson and Crick in your analytical framework ). But I'll do you the courtesy of giving more complete references:

    Title : Effect of dietary linoleic acid and essential fatty acid deficiency on resting metabolism, nonshivering thermogenesis and brown adipose tissue in the rat
    Journal : The Journal of Nutrition
    Published : May 1988

    Title : The possible role of essential fatty acids in the pathophysiology of malnutrition
    Journal : Prostaglandins, leukotrienes, and essential fatty acids
    Published : Oct 2004

    Title : FISH OIL PREVENTS ESSENTIAL FATTY ACID DEFICIENCY AND ENHANCES GROWTH: CLINICAL AND BIOCHEMICAL IMPLICATIONS
    Journal : Metabolism
    Published : 2008-5

    Title : The essentiality of arachidonic acid and docosahexaenoic acid
    Journal : Prostaglandins, leukotrienes, and essential fatty acids
    Published : 2009 Aug-Sep

    -PK
    Last edited by pklopp; 10-09-2013 at 01:43 PM.
    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

  7. #137
    dilberryhoundog's Avatar
    dilberryhoundog is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    573
    PKlopp I'm on my iphone so I can't leave a big reply quoting all your rebuttals so I will leave you to ponder a few things.

    1. The definition of anabolism is to synthesize larger molecules from smaller ones. You mentioned the synthesis of muscle cells from amino acids, this is definitely a form of anabolism. BUT THERE ARE OTHERS... The synthesis of triglycerides in adipocytes and glycogen in liver and muscle cells is also an anabolic process, what do all these processes have in common? They happen in the presence of insulin. Carbs promote insulin secretion from the pancreas which kicks off anabolic processes all over the body, proteins do this too to a lesser extent. Carbs are anabolic.

    2. In the islet of langerhans in the pancreas there are alpha & beta cells which produce glucagon and insulin(and another I forget the name of) these cells are paracrine cells meaning they can directly "communicate" with each other. It just so happens that they "communicate" a message to be directly inversely proportional to the output of the other cell. Ie if the alpha cell output is 100% then the beta cell output MUST be 0%, if the beta cell output is 50% then the alpha cell output must also be 50%.

    Now the body decides the ratio of the output of these 2 cells by the amount of blood sugar present in the serum. Ingested Carbs means predominantly insulin output and little glucagon. Proteins (your big steak example) results in a near 50 / 50 split between insulin and glucagon wich is perfect because half of the amino's are broken down by glucagon to become a mildly useful glucose source and the other half are transported by insulin to be anabolised into body cells. Note this insulin response can't be as significant as you make out because of the paracrine action with glucagon. Fats result in predominant glucagon release because the body still detects low blood glucose. Fatty acids can only be released from adipocytes by glucagon, although they can be transported by insulin as you mention.

    3 from the above it is easy to affirm that given equal caloric amounts of a macro substrate the body will respond differently depending on the macro in question, I cannot see where the contradiction lies.


    Sent from my iPhone
    A little primal gem - My Success Story
    Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

  8. #138
    ChocoTaco369's Avatar
    ChocoTaco369 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Narberth, PA
    Posts
    5,627
    Quote Originally Posted by pklopp View Post
    Ok, I'll bite. Shockingly, it turns out Choco doesn't really know what he's talking about. So where did this EFA propaganda come from? The seminal paper was from 1929 entitled "A NEW DEFICIENCY DISEASE PRODUCED BY THE RIGID EXCLUSION OF FAT FROM THE DIET.*" which fed experimental rats a diet completely devoid of fat. How did the animals fare under this regime?
    If you had any idea what you're talking about, you'd know that that study was summarily disproven as the deficiency turned out to be a B-vitamin deficiency, not an "EFA deficiency." Liars and cheats take this study the "prove" the that omega 6's and omega 3's are "essential" to survival, and they never acknowledge that the conclusion was completely wrong from the get-go. You are either ignorant or outright lying for some reason.

    Upon repeat, the study was mimicked but B-vitamins were administered. This corrected the problem.

    There has never been a study proving that omega 3 and omega 6 are essential, only a study done nearly 100 years ago that was quickly proven wrong, but please continue lying to the people.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  9. #139
    ChocoTaco369's Avatar
    ChocoTaco369 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Narberth, PA
    Posts
    5,627
    Quote Originally Posted by magicmerl View Post
    Hey, no problem. You provide a lot of good advice to people and are right about a lot of things. It's just counterweighted by arrogance and the rigid certainty that you're right, even when you're wrong.
    It isn't arrogance. I have no interest playing to people's sensitivities. If you want to lose weight and get healthier, do it. Don't give me bullshit excuses about how life is too hard to find time to cook your own food and exercise. You can't help someone that doesn't want to be helped and I'm not in the business of distributing internet hugs to make people feel better.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  10. #140
    RichMahogany's Avatar
    RichMahogany is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    8,444
    Primal Blueprint Expert Certification
    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    It isn't arrogance. I have no interest playing to people's sensitivities. If you want to lose weight and get healthier, do it. Don't give me bullshit excuses about how life is too hard to find time to cook your own food and exercise. You can't help someone that doesn't want to be helped and I'm not in the business of distributing internet hugs to make people feel better.
    You sound like you need the internet hug.

Page 14 of 40 FirstFirst ... 4121314151624 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •