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Thread: Thoughtd on this article about Sugar page 22

  1. #211
    Balance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimm View Post
    Most Doctors are not the picture of health. All the ones I know are killing themselves with their lifestyle. He eats bagels and junk food and Mark Sisson doesn't knock the rice off his sushi. He is speaking mostly to the epidemic that is destroying the people not able to make informed decisions for themselves ie children and low socio-economic classes. Robert wouldn't care if it were just up to educated people making informed, free, libertarian decisions. His concern is that the Government is selling this commodity to desperate/uninformed people. What is it with the culture that says if you've had a divorce, you are not qualified to talk about marriage or if you've lost a business, you can't give advice in that area? Experience is experience and I'd feel better learning from someone else's mistakes anyway.
    I agree with you. Just because someone isn't the picture of health doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about. And I have watched some of his lectures. I remember watching his YouTube videos on sugar including "sugar the bitter truth" and liking what I heard. But then people started to use his video to vilify eating a piece of fruit. Even though that may not have been his message that is how certain people took it. If you look back at these forums throughout the last couple of years you would routinely get the question "Is it okay to have a piece of fruit?". It is refreshing when authors/researchers can come back and say they are wrong or make tweaks to their original hypothesis when there is conflicting studies out there. Or even just to clarify things. Taubes is another guy who is well researched and wrote some compelling stuff. But he would blame almost everything on dietary carbohydrates. I just personally have a hard time following the health advice of certain people who don't make their own health a priority. My dad is a smart guy who knows a shit ton about nutrition. But he is overweight and eats the wrong food even though he knows its bad for him. So when he tries to lecture me or my family about our food choices it is hard to take him seriously. Maybe I am projecting my feelings towards Lustig
    "If man made it, don't eat it" - Jack Lallane

    People say I am on a "crazy" diet. What is so crazy about eating veggies, fruits, seafood and organ meats? Just because I don't eat whole wheat and processed food doesn't make my diet "crazy". Maybe everyone else with a SAD are the "crazy" ones for putting that junk in their system.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie` View Post
    Zach you seem to want to continue with nastiness and are very good at pointing out who is fat so I feel I should return it to you since at least one of your sugar cohorts appears that way herself. And the sugar isn't benefiting her skin or hair either.
    I reported you for that post. How dare you. People speculate about your age and then you literally look at someone's photo and make horrible comments about them? (again citing sugar as the reason ) You know nothing about what this person has gone through in their weight loss journey, or what they eat (not a lot of sugar FYI).

    It's also extremely bad form of you to use Gray's real name on a public forum.


    Oh, and since the Lustig fans conveniently ignored this the first time I posted it, here it is again:

    The bitter truth about fructose alarmism. | Alan Aragon's Blog

    Debunking Sugar is Toxic

    Wait a Minute, Lustig. The Threat of Fructophobia. And the Opportunity. | Richard David Feinman

    And because people are probably too lazy to click into the articles, just an example of how Lustig blatantly lies in order to "prove" his theory:

    The presentation of the science is compelling but, while it has a number of important points, it is clearly biased and, oddly, a good deal of it is totally wrong, some of it containing elementary errors in chemistry that border on the bizarre — how hard would it have been to open an elementary organic chemistry text? In trying to draw parallels between alcohol and fructose, Lustig says “ethanol is a carbohydrate.” Ethanol is not a carbohydrate.

    It is biological function that is important and ethanol is not processed like fructose as Lustig says. There is very little chemical sense in saying that ethanol and fructose are processed biologically in similar ways. And a metabolic pathway is shown in which glycogen is absent. Glycogen is the storage form of glucose and is generally taken as a good thing because of its relation to endurance in athletes but, like fat, glycogen is a storage form of energy and having a lot is not always a good thing. In any case, it is not true that fructose does not give rise to glycogen. In fact, fructose is generally better at forming glycogen than glucose is.
    All you have to do is google "Lustig debunked", "lustig wrong"... you get the point.
    Last edited by YogaBare; 09-17-2013 at 08:59 PM.
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by YogaBare View Post
    I reported you for that post. How dare you.
    I think that impying that the validity of what people have to say is tied to their physical appearance is a pretty scummy thing to do no matter which side of the fence you are on (whatever the fence).

    That way lies the celebrity diet...
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

    Griff's cholesterol primer
    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
    Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
    TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
    bloodorchid is always right

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by magicmerl View Post
    I think that impying that the validity of what people have to say is tied to their physical appearance is a pretty scummy thing to do no matter which side of the fence you are on (whatever the fence).

    That way lies the celebrity diet...
    You weren't seduced by Mark's abs then?
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by YogaBare View Post
    You weren't seduced by Mark's abs then?
    Heh. I certainly try not to be. I do know that people we have told about it are attracted by theh pics.

    I think that the success stories and the before/after thread are much more compelling though.
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

    Griff's cholesterol primer
    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
    Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
    TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
    bloodorchid is always right

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie` View Post
    I guess it's a good thing very low carbers have Dr Eenfeldt who isn't fat.

    Zach you seem to want to continue with nastiness and are very good at pointing out who is fat so I feel I should return it to you since at least one of your sugar cohorts appears that way herself. And the sugar isn't benefiting her skin or hair either.
    First, that is the scariest looking dude i have ever seen. If thats how low carb makes you look, i think ill start mainlining sugar. (jokes, i do that already)

    Second, wow, typical bitch move. Way to prove to everyone that you are nothing but a sad old troll.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by magicmerl View Post
    Heh. I certainly try not to be. I do know that people we have told about it are attracted by theh pics.

    I think that the success stories and the before/after thread are much more compelling though.
    Well, exactly. People are mostly attracted to diets because of how they are purported to make people look. A diet guru who looks good (and has a lot of success stories) appears to carry more validity. That's a pretty standard psychological reaction. But I think you're saying that there's a line between using people's appearance for inspiration, and using their image to assess the credibility of any particular woe.

    Trolling on someone's blog for pictures of them to use in a public argument is crossing that line, and is pretty scummy, even for a troll.
    Last edited by YogaBare; 09-17-2013 at 10:00 PM.
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  8. #218
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    Agree. I don't know who Cookie was talking about so that all just went completely over my head.
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

    Griff's cholesterol primer
    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
    Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
    TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
    bloodorchid is always right

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by YogaBare View Post
    I reported you for that post. How dare you. People speculate about your age and then you literally look at someone's photo and make horrible comments about them? (again citing sugar as the reason ) You know nothing about what this person has gone through in their weight loss journey, or what they eat (not a lot of sugar FYI).

    It's also extremely bad form of you to use Gray's real name on a public forum.
    Grey's name was common knowledge on another forum she had no idea Grey didn't want it known here. It was an honest mistake. And spare us your selective outrage. It's always just so awful when someone on the other side does it but when your buds do it you are silent. Whatever! J33n gave as good as she got from Cookie. If you're gonna dish it you better learn how to take it.


    Oh, and since the Lustig fans conveniently ignored this the first time I posted it, here it is again:
    I generally go straight to the literature to form my opinions. I leave the blog posts to those more easily swayed.

    This is just a mess! He calls out Lustig for using survey data then immediately proceeds to use survey data to "debunk" him. And then uses said data to make "Captain Obvious" conclusion without delving into the why. That's layman's logic. He's also wrong about fruit being a staple in the Japanese diet. I lived in Japan for 4 years and my father and 3 brothers have lived there for 15 years. Fruit isn't a staple in their diet. Of course they eat it but only someone who's never lived there (or even visited) would call it a significant staple. Oh and using references from a study supported by PepsiCo just screams credibility.

    Debunking Sugar is Toxic LOL so the sugar processed food industry is mad at Lustig and trying to defend fructose. Surprise surprise!!! With references paid for by the sugar and beverage industry. Did you even look at the site you posted? LOL, I'm sure you could have done better.

    Wait a Minute, Lustig. The Threat of Fructophobia. And the Opportunity. | Richard David Feinman OK now this is better! I've read this guys' blog and actually like a lot of what he has to say. However, he can rail against a few squabbles with a presentation but the science and biochemistry implicating fructose is left untouched. I absolutely agree that Lustig shouldn't stop short at recommending SAD carbohydrate levels be lowered but copious consumption of fructose (or sugar) isn't wise and Lustig is right about that.

    I'm not down with a sugar tax though. That's as overreaching as banning Big Gulps. I agree with the science, of course we need more, although what to do about it via politics and policies is legitimate grounds for public debate IMO. In any case this article's strong points lie in what to do about it but it falls far short of "debunking" Lustig if that's what you were aiming for.[/QUOTE]

    And because people are probably too lazy to click into the articles, just an example of how Lustig blatantly lies in order to "prove" his theory:
    You simply cut and paste with no attempt at critiquing, which would show skill beyond being able to google, but other people are lazy. K!

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0Angel0 View Post
    J33n gave as good as she got from Cookie. If you're gonna dish it you better learn how to take it.
    Making an assumption about age is equivocal to making bitchy comments about someone's appearance. Really?

    And your second statement is redundant because 1) I dont "dish it out", 2) I'm defending someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0Angel0 View Post
    I generally go straight to the literature to form my opinions. I leave the blog posts to those more easily swayed.
    The blog posts have summations of the scientific inaccuracies that are in his "lecture".

    And yeah, I couldnt be bothered writing a proper critique. Those who've already made up their mind wont be swayed, and those who are interested will read it themselves. Plus I find it so mind-bogglingly fear-mongering that it baffles me how other people could be fooled by it. He makes a detailed presentation on how bad isolated fructose is for you, mentions that glucose is awesome, and then says sugar is toxic? (Sugar is 50:50 fructose: glucose.) Even aside from the scientific inaccuracies I cant believe people are duped by this.
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

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