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  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jefferson1775 View Post
    That sure doesn't help those elephants that keep getting slaughtered, for example.
    You know what else didn't help those elephants? The actual profit-seeking poachers that killed them.

  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    "Weitko" is not a moral meme that we have to erase from Western thought, as the Native Americans thought. It's not a virus. It's simply one element of human nature that the Native Americans had wisely "checked" with certain local rules, while us Westerners had *not* checked this with a rule in our government, probably because of our arrogance.
    Westerners have always tried to check it too. The idea that we can create a workable society based on everyone pursuing their own self interest is a new thing.

  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    And if someone does own those trees and animals, they are liable to cash it all in for a big payout while every generation after him will suffer. The land (meaning land, water, oil, animals, soil, rare earth metals, etc) is, ultimately, a right of the collective because it must be preserved for infinite generations to come. This is in direct opposition to Weitko, which wants to use as many resources as quickly as possible for personal gain. I agree, land rights are extremely important for individuals to attain, but they must never be absolute; there should be a thin shell of the government behind it
    You know, you're right. I've never thought about it that way. I should go home and tell my family that we need to go in the woods and shoot every last one of our good bucks, then cut down all of our trees and sell them for lumber, then offer to store the county's trash in our ponds for money, and then sell our entire herd of cattle for meat. I bet we'd make quite a bit of money. Oh wait, that'd be really stupid, because the property would lose almost all of its value, and in the long run, it's makes a lot more fiscal sense to maintain what we have. Sure, there are plenty of idiots out there that will destroy their property's long term value for a little bit of short term wealth, but they certainly aren't in the majority.


    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    In America, we call this eminent domain. This is the system we have today. There may be some issues with specific regulations, like "can't build x,y,z on your property when x,y, or z are good and valid things to have", but these are fixable issues within our system, which is the best there has ever been in my opinion.
    Alright, I must thank you for writing this. I've watched some Comedy Central and seen a few amusing things on Facebook today, but this is the funniest . You talk about eminent domain like it's some way for Our Dear Leaders to protect the land. It's mostly about city council members stealing land from poor people so that their developer buddies can build a new shopping mall. Malls are fine with me, but they need to obtain that land honestly.

    You probably are pretty good with the physical sciences (F=ma and everything derived from it), but your understanding of the social sciences is lacking. I can tell you're a statist, so type "Keynesian economics" in on Amazon and explore what's out there.
    In matters of style, swim with the current. In matters of principle, stand like a rock.

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  4. #194
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    Oh boy, don't encourage him!

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  5. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jefferson1775 View Post
    Google "Democracy: The God That Failed" by Hans-Hermann Hoppe. He analyzes a lot of what you talk about.
    +1,000. I was just going to mention that too.

    I also agree with presidents fighting in their own wars. Congressmen too. If you vote for the war, you're going to the front lines.

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  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    You know what else didn't help those elephants? The actual profit-seeking poachers that killed them.
    Ever wonder why the profit margin on ivory is so high? A lot of African countries have banned its sale, which has created a black market for it and greatly increased its price. If people were free to own the elephants and sell the ivory, poaching wouldn't be profitable anymore. It's the same way with recreational drugs in this country. If they were legalized, all those drug cartels south of the border would lose their revenue, because private dispensaries could easily out-compete them.
    In matters of style, swim with the current. In matters of principle, stand like a rock.

    This message has been intercepted by the NSA, the only branch of government that listens.

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    Westerners have always tried to check it too. The idea that we can create a workable society based on everyone pursuing their own self interest is a new thing.
    Not sure what you mean? What kind of checks had Westerners put in place in the 1800s or earlier? If they really did try, then there was less arrogance than I thought.

    If it wasn't arrogance, maybe it was ignorance. People at the time perhaps didn't realize the ramifications of slaughtering herds of bison or leveling whole forests.

  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jefferson1775 View Post
    You know, you're right. I've never thought about it that way. I should go home and tell my family that we need to go in the woods and shoot every last one of our good bucks, then cut down all of our trees and sell them for lumber, then offer to store the county's trash in our ponds for money, and then sell our entire herd of cattle for meat. I bet we'd make quite a bit of money. Oh wait, that'd be really stupid, because the property would lose almost all of its value, and in the long run, it's makes a lot more fiscal sense to maintain what we have. Sure, there are plenty of idiots out there that will destroy their property's long term value for a little bit of short term wealth, but they certainly aren't in the majority.
    You're small time, my friend. There are many people without the same morals as you, and you fail to recognize the importance of this. It does not take a majority to destroy a great deal of resources, especially with modern technology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jefferson1775 View Post
    Alright, I must thank you for writing this. I've watched some Comedy Central and seen a few amusing things on Facebook today, but this is the funniest . You talk about eminent domain like it's some way for Our Dear Leaders to protect the land. It's mostly about city council members stealing land from poor people so that their developer buddies can build a new shopping mall. Malls are fine with me, but they need to obtain that land honestly.
    It's frequently used for roads too. I didn't say the implementation was perfect. I'm just saying that this exists in our rulebook for us to use and improve upon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jefferson1775 View Post
    You probably are pretty good with the physical sciences (F=ma and everything derived from it), but your understanding of the social sciences is lacking. I can tell you're a statist, so type "Keynesian economics" in on Amazon and explore what's out there.
    Wouldn't Keynes be too statist for you?
    Keynesian economists often argue that private sector decisions sometimes lead to inefficient macroeconomic outcomes which require active policy responses by the public sector, in particular, monetary policy actions by the central bank and fiscal policy actions by the government, in order to stabilize output over the business cycle.[2] Keynesian economics advocates a mixed economy predominantly private sector, but with a role for government intervention during recessions.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics

  9. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    You're small time, my friend. There are many people without the same morals as you, and you fail to recognize the importance of this. It does not take a majority to destroy a great deal of resources, especially with modern technology.
    There are a lot of evil people in this world. The trick is figuring out how to keep them from causing harm. The vast majority of people are good, though. That's my opinion, anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    It's frequently used for roads too. I didn't say the implementation was perfect. I'm just saying that this exists in our rulebook for us to use and improve upon.
    You're right about roads. I remember Rick Perry tried to steal a lot of land a few years ago for his Trans-Texas Corridor. Texans didn't take too kindly to that, and it thankfully never developed.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    Wouldn't Keynes be too statist for you?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics
    Yeah, but he's perfect for you. If you ever decide to give freedom a chance, here's a few good books to get you started.

    Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt (the Broken Window Fallacy applied to many different parts of an economy)
    The Law by Frederic Bastiat (how the law becomes legalized plunder)
    The Revolution: A Manifesto by Ron Paul (the topics in this book are too numerous to count)
    In matters of style, swim with the current. In matters of principle, stand like a rock.

    This message has been intercepted by the NSA, the only branch of government that listens.

  10. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jefferson1775 View Post
    There are a lot of evil people in this world. The trick is figuring out how to keep them from causing harm. The vast majority of people are good, though. That's my opinion, anyway.
    There's a parable about sheep, sheepdogs, and wolves.

    Sheep are happy to eat grass. They see only sheep around them, so they assume that only sheep exist. They can hardly comprehend hurting someone on purpose (whether it they hurting another or another hurting them), so they are not really capable of violence. This makes them easy prey for wolves. This represents 99% of people.

    Then, there are wolves who will prey on these sheep for their own profit/benefit. It only takes a few wolves to terrorize a flock of sheep. They are capable of violence (literally or metaphorically), and they do not care about society.

    Then, there are sheepdogs. They are capable of violence as well, but they do care about society. In fact, they eventually *have* to act in violence (literally or metaphorically) because that the only way to defeat the wolves. Violence is a competitive advantage that sheepdogs must have too. To sheep, sheepdogs often look just like wolves. Some sheepdogs even turn into part wolves, possibly due to their ostracizing.

    As for you Jefferson, you're projecting the sheep mentality, despite your recognition that wolves exist. The government has wolves in it for sure, but there are many more sheepdogs. Ignoring this battle as a fact of life is to, once again, project a sheep mentality on life.

    To summarize this all into a sentence: there is nothing wrong with authority. It is necessary, therefore it is not evil. In fact, it is good because it is necessary. It is also necessary to be careful with it.

    "Authority good" is not, in itself, a good argument for government. It's necessary to explain "why this authority" because you have to be careful with it. However, your argument along with many others with similar ideologies are not "why not this authority". Instead, it's more like "authority bad". I'm trying to come down to that level so that we're arguing over the same ethos instead of different ones, in which we'll simply be at two ends of a lever that we push in the same circular direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jefferson1775 View Post
    You're right about roads. I remember Rick Perry tried to steal a lot of land a few years ago for his Trans-Texas Corridor. Texans didn't take too kindly to that, and it thankfully never developed.
    Ya... I have no comment on that one. No idea if it was a good or bad idea.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jefferson1775 View Post
    Yeah, but he's perfect for you. If you ever decide to give freedom a chance, here's a few good books to get you started.

    Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt (the Broken Window Fallacy applied to many different parts of an economy)
    The Law by Frederic Bastiat (how the law becomes legalized plunder)
    The Revolution: A Manifesto by Ron Paul (the topics in this book are too numerous to count)
    I believe you've mistaken me for an opponent because I don't support your extremist views.
    Last edited by wiltondeportes; 10-01-2013 at 06:49 PM.

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