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Thread: Jakejoh & Derp, come 'ere! I want to pick your brains... page

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    Allenete's Avatar
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    Jakejoh & Derp, come 'ere! I want to pick your brains...

    Alright - you got me listening. It seems as though no matter where you two are there is a boxing match.
    So I want to make your contrary views into what it should be: a healthy dose of challenge to the forum. I for one could never eat what Derp eats and get away with it, but without these conflicting views this forum would indeed resemble some sort of cult. I'm particularly baffled by people with differing opinions being called trolls, and the claims that it's getting hard to sift through to content that "should be here". Just wow.

    I have a few questions for you though:

    1. What is your view of the cases where the only way people can control their food intake is through LC or VLC? And then end up nose deep in a bowl of icecream because a banana looked at them earlier in the day? Can this be a permanent state?

    2. What about those who claim that lack of carbs aren't affecting their workouts? Why not trust their judgement and let them carry on lifting weights on under 50g carbs a day?

    3. As two young males, lean and fit, what is it that backs up your suggestions to "eat more carbs" to different demographics?


    Might leave it at that for now. I'm predicting some of your "opposition" will join the discussion, which they are more than welcome to.





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    Oooh, good thread. Recruit Zach as well. Have you seen his progress pics? Oh my goodness. And Choco! Don't forget him.

    There are others, too. Some of them are female.

    TOTALLY agree with you about the "troll" accusation being overused and misused. We can learn a lot from those whom we disagree with. In fact, it's smart to study your opposition's philosophy ala The Art of War.
    Last edited by j3nn; 09-05-2013 at 08:13 AM.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allenete View Post
    Alright - you got me listening. It seems as though no matter where you two are there is a boxing match.
    LOL!

    So I want to make your contrary views into what it should be: a healthy dose of challenge to the forum. I for one could never eat what Derp eats and get away with it, but without these conflicting views this forum would indeed resemble some sort of cult. I'm particularly baffled by people with differing opinions being called trolls, and the claims that it's getting hard to sift through to content that "should be here". Just wow.
    Yeah, I haven't been here too long in comparison to others, but I have seen the word troll misused over and over again. I'm by no means a troll, I just have a different perspective and I disagree with some of what Mark recommends. I think even Mark himself would accept it for what it is, but it seems there are a select few who have a hard time seeing their cherished beliefs challenged.

    1. What is your view of the cases where the only way people can control their food intake is through LC or VLC?
    If it stops here, that's awesome. Although I don't support the complete removal of an entire macronutrient that has much to offer in terms of health and performance, if you feel great and you reach satiety quicker and you enjoy eating this way, more power to you.

    And then end up nose deep in a bowl of icecream because a banana looked at them earlier in the day? Can this be a permanent state?
    This, on the other hand, is disordered eating. Some would call it sugar 'addiction', which is complete and utter bullshit in my opinion. If you cannot look at sugar (or anything else, for that matter. Some people have problems with fatty foods. It's not just sugar/carbs) without diving in it face-first, you have an issue (possibly binge eating disorder) that needs to be addressed.

    If it's not binge eating disorder, then I think it calls for a healthy dose of moderation. For some reason, the word moderation is taken as, "So you're saying everyone should just eat junk all day long? You're an idiot Jake." No, I'm saying that if you're more flexible throughout the day/week and you understand that you can eat tasty foods and still lose body fat (assuming you're in a caloric deficit, which is a requirement for losing body fat), that's the best way to go.

    For example, I actually used to struggle with some binge eating habits when I would try restrictive diets. I would binge on whole tubs of ice cream and still be hungry afterwards. Right now, I'm in a caloric deficit because I'm trying to lean out a bit, but I still eat ice cream every day because I know that I can fit it within my calorie needs. I find that being flexible all the time allows me to fight off cravings without going on an all out binge because I've felt restricted.

    2. What about those who claim that lack of carbs aren't affecting their workouts? Why not trust their judgement and let them carry on lifting weights on under 50g carbs a day?
    I don't think I've ever told someone who was happy with their performance in the gym to start eating more carbs. It's usually, "I'm losing fat on <50g of carbs, but I'm dragging my ass in the gym as I try to do Crossfit." If your training is glycogen dependent (Crossfit, cycling, Triathlons, and other high intensity, long duration type exercise) you need to be eating a healthy dose of carbs to maintain your performance.

    Although there are some outliers that have done well on "fat-adapted" training, it doesn't work for the majority. High level athletes eat a lot of carbs.

    Now, if you lift weights and do some cardio a couple times per week, you don't need 500 grams of carbs. I lift weights 6 times per week, and I eat around 300-325 grams per day (in an energy deficit). If someone is making progress and feeling good lifting wieghts frequently on a low carb diet, great. Based on personal experience, I feel much more energetic, much more vascular, much stronger, and recover much more quickly on a higher carb diet.

    Also, if you're someone who's trying to put on muscle, the focus should be on carbs and protein for most. They are the two most anabolic macronutrients. Also, if you're in a caloric surplus, dietary fat is the most likely to be stored, so keeping it lower in comparison to protein and carbs is a good idea.

    3. As two young males, lean and fit, what is it that backs up your suggestions to "eat more carbs" to different demographics?
    I don't think I've ever made recommendations based on a specific demographic, but I would say that if you're lean and active, you can certainly handle plenty of carbs as you're probably very insulin sensitive.

    I will say that I hate the argument that one wacko in particular (I won't name any names) always uses: "Wait till you're 40. Or, you're a young male, you shouldn't be telling woman what to do."

    First of all, I've seen active women in their 30's and 40's consume as many carbs as I do and stay lean. The inability for some to handle carbohydrates tends to lead them to blame the carbohydrates. But in reality, your metabolism is faulty if carbs constantly make you go hypoglycemic and make you want to pass out.

    I'm not saying everyone should eat a high carb diet. But I am saying that you should weigh your options and not become attached to a particular idea (which is very common in the low carb community).

    Might leave it at that for now. I'm predicting some of your "opposition" will join the discussion, which they are more than welcome to.
    Cool thread. I love to debate assuming that it stays civil (which is quite the assumption), and I would be happy to discuss these topics with those who have differing opinions. That's how you learn!
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    Zach's Avatar
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    1. VLC is a stressful state where the body is breaking down protein to get the required glucose. Your body does not want this, its much preferable to get glucose through diet so the body sends out strong signals. This will almost always lead to carb binges or relapses or falling off the wagon, whatever you want to call it. To be fair though, many times eating to few of calories in general is a big factor. VLC also blunts appetite, causing people to eat much less then they need. There may be a way to eat VLC permanently, if its optimal, im not sure.

    2. Some exercise does not need as much glucose so it is possible to exercise while on VLC and still make gains and even feel decent. A lot of that is adrenalin as well. I think most will eventually crash without carb refeeds though.

    3. 99.9% of the world gets a majority of their calories from carbs. 99.9% of elite athletes get the majority of their calories from carbs. Apart from tiny inline communities, our long gone paleo ancestors (supposedly) and a remote few tribes and Inuits, no one is getting the majority of their calories from fat.

    Personally, i think anyone and everyone can thrive on a high carb diet. Most that fail or claim to not do well on carbs are doing multiple things worse. Too much fat, wrong carb sources, too much food at once, etc.

    Those are just my thoughts.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allenete View Post
    And then end up nose deep in a bowl of icecream because a banana looked at them earlier in the day?
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    1. What is your view of the cases where the only way people can control their food intake is through LC or VLC? And then end up nose deep in a bowl of icecream because a banana looked at them earlier in the day? Can this be a permanent state?
    I've rarely seen this being permanent, eventually, for most people, if not everyone, they will go back to eating carbs regularly, if not at least a carb refeed. Most of the people I've seen who have problems controlling their appetite on a carb heavy diet, either eat SAD(high carb from starch, high unsaturated fat) or CW(high starch, supplemented unsaturated fat). CW wouldn't be so bad, except it's notoriously low in protein, the key macronutrient for satiation. Starch has its own fair share of problems, which is why I leave it minimum. It raises blood sugar so quickly that it causes blood sugar issues, leading to increased adrenaline and cortisol. The high fat also inhibits glucose oxidation, eventually leading to insulin resistance, and a feeling of never being full and having everything stored as fat. The other is just disordered eating, that will never improve on a restrictive diet. Honestly, who wants to live that way anyway? Look at a banana and say "no I can't eat this I'm on a diet, carb curve, insulin, bears, oh my!"

    "The fact that a taste of chocolate can provoke a wild lust for more chocolate, or that once cigarette renews the addiction, does not mean that the presence of chocolate or nicotine in the blood creates a craving. Rather, it is that an organism in an unstable state perceives the availability of something which promises to partially restore the desired stability."

    There is no correlation between a banana and various junk food, it's just about getting control over yourself. I think if they wouldn't view all sugar the same, and let themselves eat it, it wouldn't get that bad. My proof? Anecdotal experience with a lot of women on here, and a few friends of mine. I told a rather heavy friend of mine that sugar wasn't bad, and any and all fruit is ok to eat as much as you want, so, she did. Lots of white sugar in her coffee, as many fruits as she could eat, and believe me, she went balls out crazy for a few days, before she stabilized. I assume she got bored of it, and now she's steadily losing weight and hasn't had a binge eating attack for a few months now. Says she no longer even looks at food the same way.

    I think it's a mentality, like others, that we get from environment, or, maybe innately, like, when you perceive something as wrong, and then you do it, you will keep doing it. But, when you no longer think that way, it starts becoming boring. This friendship and obsession with food is a problem. If you always think about food, chances are you're always going to be hungry. Find something else to do. Food is needed to sustain life, it shouldn't be life. One thing I always advise people who have issues with their body is to stop looking at propaganda on TV and in magazines, and then I show them fatter celebrities, and celebrities who are just out and not being photoshopped. What do you know? They appear 10-20lbs heavier and quite a bit more normal. This seems to put their minds at ease.

    2. What about those who claim that lack of carbs aren't affecting their workouts? Why not trust their judgement and let them carry on lifting weights on under 50g carbs a day?
    Cause they always look quite a bit more soft and progress a lot slower, despite arguably working out more. It's also stressful on the body. Ingestion of adequate carbohydrate prevents protein from being used to make glucose, so it spares lean muscle. Fat has a very slow rate of metabolism, people who lose protein are going to have difficulty losing weight, since they will have less active tissue to consume fat.

    3. As two young males, lean and fit, what is it that backs up your suggestions to "eat more carbs" to different demographics?
    To promote as little of a stressful environment as possible, pretty much. There is already enough stress in this world without compounded stress from a needless diet. If you're insulin resistant, take a look at the diet that got you there in the first place. Human intelligence has increased exceedingly since after agriculture, I can only assume this evolution took place in part due to the large amounts of available glucose for consumption.
    Last edited by Derpamix; 09-05-2013 at 12:04 PM.
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    I too have been meaning to ask these guys questions, as I also find it interesting. I've been reading Zach/derp's logs, and Jake's blog (particularly interesting post about sugar).

    Not to hijack this, but I thought I'd ask two questions to go along with Allenete's:

    1. Ray Peat's articles are interesting, but very heavy-- particularly if you aren't versed in human physiology. To understand the principles better, what other resource(s) would you recommend to a simpleton such as my self? The Peat Whisper by Roddy seems like a decent resource, but is 85 pages worth $50?

    and

    2. Similar to a post Mark did a few months ago, if you had to live on a desert island with just 10 foods for the rest of your life, what would they be?

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    Derpamix's Avatar
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    Danny Roddy would recommend against buying his book since he finds the information not as informative. I think he even gives it away for free now, if you ask. I would just look at the Peat thread here, peatarian.com, or raypeatforum.com, or just look at the free information on Danny's blog.

    10 is easy.

    1. Coffee
    2. Milk
    3. Liver
    4. Oysters
    5. Eggs
    6. Carrots
    7. Oranges
    8. Cane sugar
    9. Cherries
    10. Lamb

    Alternatively, I would just have some cows, to make butter, cheese, and milk, and have a few fruit trees, and a carrot harvest.
    nihil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    1. VLC is a stressful state where the body is breaking down protein to get the required glucose.
    I don't know, VLC can also be a high protein diet, can't it ? Why would the body use its own proteins ? or are you talking about dietary proteins ? In any case, protein breakdown is energy consuming for sure but if the metabolic pathway exist, why should it be that stressful ? I think there are a couple of researchers (Phinney and Volek) arguing that even nutritional ketosis is a protein sparing state.
    The only time I was starving, I was on a potato diet due to financial misfortune. That was a very high carb diet but low cal with long fasting time between meals. I lost some muscle mass for sure ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakejoh10 View Post
    I will say that I hate the argument that one wacko in particular (I won't name any names) always uses: "Wait till you're 40. Or, you're a young male, you shouldn't be telling woman what to do."
    You rang? My wacko stuff is staright out of Mark's book. I'm basing the age argument on many of the Success Stories that pass through MDA's... lots of guys who grew up on pretzels and beer and lo, 20 years later they find Primal and lose that 20-30 pounds. That said, there probably are people who are more carb tolerant than others. You may yet escape.

    And a young male shouldn't be telling a woman what to do, on ANY subject.
    5'0" female, 43 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Current weight: skinny-fat 106.5 lbs because of sugar cheating.

    MY PRIMAL: I (try to) follow by-the-book primal as advocated by Mark Sisson, except for whey powder and a bit of cream. I aim for 80-90 g carb/day and advocate a two-month strict adjustment for newbies. But everybody is different and other need to tweak Primal to their own needs.

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